Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Yes, all except 21/91, 66/12. 24/33 is not necessarily about the "married".
So according to your interpretation 1731-36 in context address only the married, thus only the married have children ? widowers, divorced, unmarried cannot have children therefore
And kill not your children for fear of poverty ? not applicable for singles.
Sure if you are single take kid?s food, clothes, school money spends it on whatever; it?s OK according to your interpretation.And come not near to alzzina verily, it is a fahishah ? not applicable for singles.
Therefore, those not married can have unlimited sex with anyone soon as they reach puberty.And do not kill anyone whose killing God has forbidden ? not applicable for singles.
Therefore, those not married can go postal anytime on a killing spree according to your interpretation.And come not near to the orphan's property except to improve it ? not applicable for singles.
Thus if single go rob a few orphans, it's OK according to your interpretation.And follow not that of which you have no knowledge ? not applicable for singles.
Sure follow whatever thoughts pop in your head if you are single ready to mingle.243 Alzzanee (only the married) can marry a zaniyatan who is also married -- swap spouses anytime.
244 those who accuse (chaste/honorable women) ? only married women are honorable.
Therefore, according to your interpretation (in context) single women cannot be chaste.425 And who is not able, from you wealth/capability that he marries (the chaste/honorable), the believing so from what your rights owned from your youths (girls) the believers?
Thus, according to you if you do not have enough money to lure a married believing woman away from her husband, get a malakat aymanukum..
2433 And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves (chaste/honorable)
What, singles can also be (chaste/honorable)?55
Today is permitted for you the goodness, and those who were given The Book's food is permitted for you, and your food is permitted for them, and the chaste from the believers, and the chaste from those who were given The Book from before you, if you gave them their fees (dowries), marrying not fornicating/adulterating, and not taking lovers, and who disbelieves with the faith, so his deed had failed, and he in the end from the losers.
Thus according to your interpretation only the married women from those given The Book above are permitted -- singles not applicable.
What will the "slander" mean for an unmarried woman?
It means her reputation, honor, chastity, and dignity as a lady is being challenged.
Very serious and those who continue to spread such lies should be dealt with mercilessly.
3359-62
O? prophet, say to your wives and your daughters and the believers' women they near (lengthen) on them from their dresses, that (is) nearer that they be known (as respectable women), so they do not be harmed, and God is forgiving, merciful. If the hypocrites and those whom in their minds sickness and the spreaders of agitating rumors and bad news to provoke people in the town do not stop, We will urge you (to get rid of) with them, then they do not become a neighbor to you in it except a few. Accursed, they shall be seized wherever found and killed with a (terrible) slaughter. That was God's way in those who past from before, and you will not find to God's way a change.Read Qur?an in context and cross-reference; there are no contradictions or fornication amongst singles.
Peace
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Fahad
salam brother
sorry i had to butt-in, I guess you have a wrong understanding due to erroneous translation of the word Mohsinna by most of the translators , specially 24-4,
The Mohsinnats, or the mohsinna is ,NOT, a married women, but a label that Quran likes to call the women who are chaste, or in other words are not proven fahishas/zanias(every one is chaste unless proven otherwise)
A clear proof against your understanding is 4-25, kindly go through that, it says , If you do not have the means to nikkah a Mohsinna from Mominats category , then you should marry a maiden mohsinna from Ma malakat category.
peace
siki
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I see the thread is being derailed towards meanings of words that I see still problematic mohsanaat and maa maa malakat aymanukum. Although I feel tempted, but I want to respond to the main post of the thread.
Mariage according to quraan is a commitment between two, with the knowledge of those around them, not just the families, that they are living together as husband and wife. Dowery or mahr is not mentioned anywhere in the quraan, but "ajr" wage is. This ajr, in my understanding, is an ongoing wage. Presents are not ajr, nor is mahr. If you are fulfilling hese conditions, I think you are married. Until you are in this position, you are just engaged, promising to marry each other. So no rights nor obligations, and definitely no sex.
Sorry Truthseeker1, I do not agree with maa malakat aymaanukum being engaged/committed by oath and so sex is allowed. There's no committment by oath in an engagement.
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Peace Samia,
This ajr, in my understanding, is an ongoing wage. Presents are not ajr, nor is mahr.
Please provide proof from the qur'aan that it is an ongoing wage.
3185 Every soul will taste death, and you will be recompensed your dues/UJOORAKUM on the Day of Resurrection. Whoever is swayed from the Fire and entered into Paradise, he has indeed won. This worldly life is nothing more than the enjoyment of vanity.
It cannot be an ongoing wage because everyone's ujoor will be paid on the YAWM AL-QIYAAMAT, unless you think that YAWM al-qiyaamat will last for eternity.
2854 To these We will give the reward/AJRAHUM twice/MARRATAYN for that they have been patient. And they counter evil with good, and from Our provisions to them, they give.
If ajr is an ongoing process, then how will they be given the ajr marratayn? As you can see, by misinterpreting it as an ongoing process you will render the meaning of this sign nonsensical. 3331 is similar.
3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowries,..................
Wow, according to your misinterpretation, if ajr is an ongoing process then the prophet has already given them that ongoing process so they cannot be the wives anymore, but they can only be divorced. But the sign is still calling them his wives, so ajr CANNOT BE AN ONGOING PROCESS, because HE HAS ALREADY GIVEN IT TO THEM.
2237 And if you divorce them before having sexual intercourse with them, but you have already set the dowry for them; then you must give half of what you have agreed, unless they forgive or the guardian over the marriage contract forgives. And if you forgive, it is closer to righteousness. And do not forget the favor between you; God is Seer over what you do.
If ajr is an ongoing wage, then HOW CAN YOU DETERMINE WHAT IS HALF OF IT? Do you have knowledge of the future how long you are going to remain married or when you are going to die during marriage? Ajr can only be a fixed amount which is to be given at one time, or the payment can be divided over a period of time or given back by the wife to the husband or more can be given to the wife by mutual agreement as per 424, but IT CANNOT BE AN ONGOING WAGE.
The ongoing financial protection is referred to in 434. Ajr is given one time but always remains with the wife so that she will have financial protection in case of divorce.
The way AJR is used in the qur'aan it can only mean "reward", and not "wage". Please look at all the signs using this root. Do you mean to say that The God will give "wages" to people on the Last Day or will He give them their "reward"? This reward is given one time in full on the Last Day per 3185 which will last with the people for ever and will be enough to last with them forever.
Until you are in this position, you are just engaged, promising to marry each other.
Sorry Truthseeker1, I do not agree with maa malakat aymaanukum being engaged/committed by oath and so sex is allowed. There's no committment by oath in an engagement.
Is promise not an oath? I guess I will have to be careful with you if you make a "promise" with me because your "promise" is not an "oath". When you promise to marry someone and thus get engaged, you are making an oath in front of The God, and thus you are committing by oath (ma malakat aymaanukum).
Huh, whaaaa.............when did The God reveal a sign saying that sex is allowed with ma malakat aymaanukum. If the malaika came to you with that sign how come you have not proclaimed it to us dear Samia?
If you are referring to 236, it does not mention sex which is "lamas" or "dakhal" according to the qur'aan. Not protecting/guarding private parts does not mean sex.
Peace
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Peace everyone,
Zina CAN ONLY BE PUBLIC SEX, i.e. performed in front of others, otherwise how will you be able to bring 4 witnesses to prosecute a zaani/zaaniat if it is not public sex? It is prohibited to spy on one another, so two people committing adultery or fornication secretly in private cannot be zina, because no one will ever be able to bring the 4 witnesses. Zaani/zaaniyat is zaani/zaaniyat ONLY once 4 witnesses testify to their having sex, which can ONLY BE POSSIBLE IN PUBLIC SEX. They are not classified as zaani/zaaniyat until 4 witnesses are brought which makes it public sex.
The only exception is 246
246 And those who accuse their spouses, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that they are being truthful.
It still says that their testimony is EQUAL TO THAT OF 4 WITNESSES, which again implies that IN GENERAL ZINA IS PUBLIC SEX.
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truth seeker
salam.
I tend to agree with your opinion that ajar is one time , not an on going process, however could you kindly let me know the difference between a wage and reward?
checking out fiance's sexual parts to evaluate weather they are desirable, or not, before marriage is very very strange , and i am amazed at your perception. This is probably due to your wrong understanding of the word Ma Malakat Emanakum, You see brother, this is what is most amazing about Quran, it will not let you adopt an incorrect meaning.
Ma Malakat emnakum are rated along with your azwaj, you can have sex with them , the only difference being that you possess them for free, No wages/ajar/reward before enjoying them.
siki
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The only exception is 246
246 And those who accuse their spouses, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that they are being truthful.
It still says that their testimony is EQUAL TO THAT OF 4 WITNESSES, which again implies that IN GENERAL ZINA IS PUBLIC SEX.
Zina is definitely public sex, 24-6 has no relevance with the issue, this is a peculiar case and if you note
no word like zina zani or zania is used in 24-6.It is an accusation for adultery and what is going to be proven in this case is a fahash act, Not zina, until or unless he/she is caught by 4 witnesses.
siki
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Peace Nyma,
I see that you still haven't replied to my detailed post addressed to almarhom in which I proved from the qur'aan that nikah/marriage ALWAYS requires two witnesses because it is a form of Ba-Ya-Ayn, and requires a written contract only if the AJR was not paid on the spot but is to be paid in the future after a fixed period as per 2282.
My new understanding is that in 2237 "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" can only be referring to the husband.
It is not "guardian" of the marriage contract (and hence appointable) because "guardian" is a mistranslation of "allathee biyadihi". The whole term means "the one with/in whose hand the marriage contract" which can include either of the two parties who signed the marriage contract with their hands. It cannot be the wife because when it says "unless they forgive" before the term, it is already referring to the wives. It has to be the husband because immediately after the term it says "if you forgive then it is closer to righteousness", where you is referring to the husband.
If a sentence says "unless they forgive or ............ forgives; if you forgive then it is better", then the "you" has to be referring to the ............ part. The husband is one of those "with/in whose hand the marriage contract", and grammatically according to the context of 2237, "the one with/in whose hand the marriage contract" can only be referring to the husband.
It cannot be a "guardian" appointed by the wife, because
- Nowhere it says it is appointed by the wife. Why can't it be appointed by the husband?
- It says "unless they forgive or ....... forgives". If it is a "guardian" then that would be violation of the wife's rights. What if the wife refuses to forgive but then the "guardian appointed by her" forgives? In that case the husband can refuse to give the wife half of what he agreed, by saying that even though she did not forgive, the "guardian" did.
- It can only be referring to the husband because then, either she can forgo (and the husband does not have to pay half the agreed ajr), or the husband can forego (and he pays her the full ajr), and then it makes sense when it says "if you forgive, it is closer to righteousness".
So 3 possible situations
- Husband pays wife half the agreed ajr
- Wife forgoes and no ajr is paid to her
- Husband forgoes and pays the full ajr --------> closer to righteousness.
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Peace Siki,
Wage is always paid on an hourly, daily, or piecework basis according to dictionary.com. It is a form of reward, so wage is a subset of reward. All wages are rewards, but all rewards are not wages. A lumpsum payment can be classified as a reward, but cannot be classified as a wage.
checking out fiance's sexual parts to evaluate weather they are desirable, or not, before marriage is very very strange , and i am amazed at your perception.
It is not to evaluate whether they are desirable, but in my previous post I expressed my opinion that it is to make sure either of the future spouses does not have some kind of disease, deformity or impotence. Which is better ..... to marry and then find out and then divorce, or to find out before marriage but after making a solemn oath of engagement? This is a very serious and important issue. Of course if they find out before marriage and have to break the oath of engagement, they have to pay the penalty outlined in 589.
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Peace Samia,
Please provide proof from the qur'aan that it is an ongoing wage.
Salaam Truthseeker11
The meaning of ajr is a wage given for fulfilling a job/a deed. Since it's given to her for marriage, she will continue getting it as long as she is beein married.3185 Every soul will taste death, and you will be recompensed your dues/UJOORAKUM on the Day of Resurrection. Whoever is swayed from the Fire and entered into Paradise, he has indeed won. This worldly life is nothing more than the enjoyment of vanity.
2854 To these We will give the reward/AJRAHUM twice/MARRATAYN for that they have been patient. And they counter evil with good, and from Our provisions to them, they give.
3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowries,..................
Interesting! Why did the same word used in the three verss suddenly became "dowery" when it was ajr for marriage? Perhaps this corruption of the meaning of the word that twisted the real meaning
Classical Arabic DictionariesTranslatin ajr reward for a job/work
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Ma Malakat emnakum are rated along with your azwaj, you can have sex with them , the only difference being that you possess them for free, No wages/ajar/reward before enjoying them.
siki
Salaam siki
How about this
If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their ujoor, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful
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Peace Samia,
Nice work quoting 425.
The meaning of ajr is a wage given for fulfilling a job/a deed.
Yes, it is a reward for fulfilling/entering the nikah/marriage contract by satisfying all the requirements. No one keeps getting married after they are already married.
Since it's given to her for marriage, she will continue getting it as long as she is beein married.
This contradicts with 3350 as I mentioned before, in which the prophet ALREADY PAID the AJR to his wives. They are still his wives, and he has ALREADY PAID the AJR, so AJR CANNOT BE ONGOING.
Interesting! Why did the same word used in the three verss suddenly became "dowery" when it was ajr for marriage? Perhaps this corruption of the meaning of the word that twisted the real meaning
Classical Arabic DictionariesTranslatin ajr reward for a job/work
So a wedding gift is not a "reward"? The deed is entering the marriage contract by fulfilling all the requirements, and the ajr is a reward/gift for that deed.
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Salaam
Yes, it is a reward for fulfilling/entering the nikah/marriage by satisfying all the requirements. No one keeps getting married after they are already married.
Marriage is a contract. Cotract between two parties is on the basis of equality.
Then "ajr" must be both ways. Why only one way?.Relationship of Allah and His slave is different.
Allah is COmmanding
Slave is obeying
Allah commands -----> Slaves obey --------> Allah Gives "ajr" on the Day of Judgement.What does "ajr" mean in marriage contract ?
Regards -
Salaam siki
How about this
If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their ujoor, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful
The one who posses them can have sexual relations with them , without paying ajar , whereas if any one can not afford to marry a free mohsina then it is being recommended that he may approach a believing maiden from ma malakat category with the permission of her possessor and he has to treat her as good as a free lady, and full fill all those requirements and treat her the way one would have treated a free women, as described in 4-24.
4-24 says, Al mohsinnate minan nissa, illa ma malakat emnakum,---------
4 24 is describing as to how to go about creating a sexual relationship with a mohsinnate among women , that is "seek them with your money and pay them their wages before touching them", and this should not be to satisfy lust only , but to bring her under a protected relation ship.
And for all of the above, Ma Malakat emnakum stay an exception, meaning that this described restriction/rule does not apply to them.
siki
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The one who posses them can have sexual relations with them , without paying ajar , whereas if any one can not afford to marry a free mohsina then it is being recommended that he may approach a believing maiden from ma malakat category with the permission of her possessor and he has to treat her as good as a free lady, and full fill all those requirements and treat her the way one would have treated a free women, as described in 4-24.
Her possessor became her family/ahl? How did he possess her? Why would her "possessor" give her up when he is having free sex and slavery? How can this "who is unable to marry the mohsanat" afford the price of a sex slave (definitely the possesor will have to either sell her or rent her) nope nope
Remember, maa malakat aymanukum are not only females!! So forget about these "sex slaves". -
Waalmuhsanatu mina alnnisa-iilla ma malakat aymanukum kitaba AllahiAAalaykum waohilla lakum ma waraa thalikuman tabtaghoo bi-amwalikum muhsineena ghayra musafiheenafama istamtaAAtum bihi minhunna faatoohunnaojoorahunna fareedatan wala junaha AAalaykumfeema taradaytum bihi min baAAdi alfareedatiinna Allaha kana AAaleeman hakeeman
Waman lam yastatiAA minkum tawlanan yankiha almuhsanati almu/minatifamin ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumualmu/minati waAllahu aAAlamu bi-eemanikumbaAAdukum min baAAdin fainkihoohunnabi-ithni ahlihinna waatoohunna ojoorahunna bialmaAAroofimuhsanatin ghayra masafihatin walamuttakhithati akhdanin fa-itha ohsinnafa-in atayna bifahishatin faAAalayhinna nisfu maAAala almuhsanati mina alAAathabi thalikaliman khashiya alAAanata minkum waan tasbiroo khayrunlakum waAllahu ghafoorun raheemun
kindly study the two verses in continuation and ponder over the arabic, not the translations.
siki
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What do you wnat me to find in these verses after pondering over the Arabic? That they are
-females only?- sex slaves?
-have "owners"? - should not be paid?
I am afraid the answers to your questions are a YES, and unfortunately that is a hard truth, because this category existed when quran was revealed, and how do you think God would not address this important issue?
siki
- sex slaves?
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I am afraid the answers to your questions are a YES, and unfortunately that is a hard truth, because this category existed when quran was revealed, and how do you think God would not address this important issue?
siki
Dear Brother
Do you understand that with a single stroke of "Yes" where you have placed the status of women ?Regards