Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Dear Samia
You said What is this "sexless marriage "? Never heard of it.
How come a marriage is sexless unless there is some really medical problem ?
What is the use of such a marriage ?
If you say financial support ,then it can be without marriage even.
If a man takes a lady in marriage and does not does not have sex with her ,do you think it is is justified with that lady. Will she commit Zina for her psychological demands ?
RegardsHow old are you, student?
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Brother, 24/6 itself doesn't mention the words zina, zaaniya or zaani but what is the context about? It is about zina. 24/4 has relevance with zina, but 24/6 does not? Why not?
So 24/4 is about zina even though it does not mention the word "zina", "zaaniya" or "zaani". But 24/6 is not about zina because it does not mention "zina", "zaaniya" or "zaani" either. Bro, please help me understand this logic. Thanks.
IMO, context in 24-4 is an accusation , and the subject is an unproven accusation so it is not zina, That is why the word zina has not been used in 24-4.
Again in 24-6 ,the issue can not be categorised as zina due to absence 4 witnesses, but as the matter is extremely important/sensitive for the witnessing spouse, as such he can not keep his mouth shut and go on living, just because he can't produce 4 witnesses , and if he bursts out with it, 80 lashes are waiting for him, so to avoid false accusation charge , a special procedure has been formulated.
But this sole witnessing can not be termed as public sex , that is why No Zee word has been used in 24-6 as well.
siki
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Wsalaam bro.
You are welcome ) .
I am willing to re-consider my understanding if I can see some solid evidence against it. My understanding is based upon verse 4/25, not upon translations of a single word.
I'd like to see evidence for that.
Bro, 'al-muhsinaat al-mominaat' are already from the 'milk-al-ayman', IMHO. Al-muhsinaat are only allowed if they are from the 'milk-al-ayman' category(4/24). But I am sorry I don't get how that disproves my understanding?
I have been studying this subject for the last two years ,so to have some idea about this issue, kindly start with studying "Mohsinnats ,a new understanding" thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13799.0
siki
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Dear Samia
You said What is this "sexless marriage "? Never heard of it.
How come a marriage is sexless unless there is some really medical problem ?
What is the use of such a marriage ?
If you say financial support ,then it can be without marriage even.
If a man takes a lady in marriage and does not does not have sex with her ,do you think it is is justified with that lady. Will she commit Zina for her psychological demands ?
RegardsThis post definitely proves that you are mentally very much an adult , and that is what is important for discussing this issue on the forum.
siki
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MMA are particularly not to have sex with them. it's a sexless marriage , whether by at least one of them not being able to or not wnating/supposed to have sex. There are many people like that and they are not ignored by the quraan. And maybe God is asking him not to marry= to limit his intimate relations to his wives, or even to remarry/change his wives, but since MMA marriage is a sexless one, he could have as amny as he wanted. Otherwise, what's the point of forbidding him any more marriage, but allowing him as amny MMA as he wanted?
Dear samia
This sexless marriage argument is by far the most senseless argument that you have ever come up with, and on top of it , ridiculing Q student? who , in my opinion was asking you very intelligent questions very humbly.
siki
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Dear samia
This sexless marriage argument is by far the most senseless argument that you have ever come up with, and on top of it , ridiculing Q student? who , in my opinion was asking you very intelligent questions very humbly.
siki
In fact I was not rediculing student, I laughed at the way he understood my question. It has nothing to do with the discussion being for adults only. What I meant is that the older the men the nearer their expiry date, though it does not apply to all, but to a good percentage. Besides, primary impotence, secondary impotence or malformations are more than you can imagine. Not to mention the gay who cannot marry "fully" the opposite sex nor are allowed to marry into their own sex. Just because people do not talk does not mean that a good portion of the population are not suffering in silence.
And you say sexless marriage is none sense or does not/cannot exist?
What do the doctors on this forum think? -
IMO, context in 24-4 is an accusation , and the subject is an unproven accusation so it is not zina, That is why the word zina has not been used in 24-4.
The accusation itself is not zina, but the accusation is about zina, is it not? Why would the context be about one thing and the accusation about another?
Again in 24-6 ,the issue can not be categorised as zina due to absence 4 witnesses,
But where is that verse that requires 4 witnesses for az-zina to take place, the verse that defines az-zina as public sex, the verse that mentions "zina" and "four witnesses" together?
but as the matter is extremely important/sensitive for the witnessing spouse, as such he can not keep his mouth shut and go on living, just because he can't produce 4 witnesses , and if he bursts out with it, 80 lashes are waiting for him, so to avoid false accusation charge , a special procedure has been formulated.
Bro, the Quran does not tell us this reason.
But this sole witnessing can not be termed as public sex , that is why No Zee word has been used in 24-6 as well.
The 'Zee word' has not been used anywhere in the Quran with "four witnesses".
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I have been studying this subject for the last two years ,so to have some idea about this issue, kindly start with studying "Mohsinnats ,a new understanding" thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13799.0
siki
I have read most of this thread sometime ago. Can you please refer me to any exact posts or arguments in this thread which disprove my understanding. Thanks.
Also, can you please show me how 4/25 disproves my understanding. You wrote
A clear proof against your understanding is 4-25, kindly go through that, it says , If you do not have the means to nikkah a Mohsinna from Mominats category , then you should marry a maiden mohsinna from Ma malakat category.
Thanks.
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Coming to the definition of az-zina, I think it is wrong to say that az-zina includes "pre-marital" sex because
If we pay close attention to the context of 24/2(the verse ordaining punishment for the az-zina), we realize that for az-zina to occur, az-zaani can be any man, "married" or not, but the az-zaaniya must be a "married" woman
Verse 24/4 talks about those who accuse al-muhsinaat of committing az-zina
24/4 And those who accuse al-muhsinaat, then do not bring four witnesses, therefore you shall lash them eighty lashes,....
According to verse 4/25, a woman is made muhsina through nikah. That is, a muhsina is a nikah-ed woman.
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According to your interpretation, al-muhsinaat is married (contradicts 425)
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Marriage does not make a woman chaste (this is about her character not marital status).
425 And who is not able, from you wealth that he marries almuhsanati
- Says to marry a good woman (the chaste) not marry the already married.
Peace
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425 And who is not able, from you wealth that he marries almuhsanati
Salaam Eid
Now you made muhsanaat rich women! Why is it "who has no means" means who has no money? Do the poor stop getting married? The qur'aan is not much concerned about how much wealth you have when it comes to commands and guidance. It does not even say only the rich should give charity or the poor should not pay "blood money/ fidiya". So " " Who is unable to marry the "muhsanaat" , and not (who has not the financial means)
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Salaam Samia,
Now you made muhsanaat rich women! Why is it "who has no means" means who has no money? Do the poor stop getting married? The qur'aan is not much concerned about how much wealth you have when it comes to commands and guidance. It does not even say only the rich should give charity or the poor should not pay "blood money/ fidiya". So " " Who is unable to marry the "muhsanaat" , and not (who has not the financial means)
Point was that marrying the already married contradicts.
425
In addition, wealth is a matter of degree, standard of living and livelihoods vary depending on individuals, location, expected life styles, some women are frugal, others accustomed to levels of comfort, want to stay home not work, etc.
It's the same with those who do not have the wherewithal/means to free a neck should fast/feed the poor
584
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Salaam Eid
Now you made muhsanaat rich women! Why is it "who has no means" means who has no money? Do the poor stop getting married? The qur'aan is not much concerned about how much wealth you have when it comes to commands and guidance. It does not even say only the rich should give charity or the poor should not pay "blood money/ fidiya". So " " Who is unable to marry the "muhsanaat" , and not (who has not the financial means)
I think i had explained this,
In addition to eid's arguments, one must understand, It is not about the Mohsinnate being rich , but you being poor, and hence the ayat is about recommending a cheaper alternate in the shape of a Maiden Believing Mohsinate among Ma Malakat category, because she will be more than happy to upgrade herself with a much less ajar.
And you must note that this recommendation is for,
1, she should be Mohsinna, (Not fahisha, zania, mushriqa from Ma Malakat category)
2. she should be a Mominna (Not an otul kitab among Ma Malakat category)
3. And among Ma Malakat, a fatayat (young maiden) should be your first choice.peace
siki
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In fact I was not ridiculing student, I laughed at the way he understood my question. It has nothing to do with the discussion being for adults only. What I meant is that the older the men the nearer their expiry date, though it does not apply to all, but to a good percentage. Besides, primary impotence, secondary impotence or malformations are more than you can imagine. Not to mention the gay who cannot marry "fully" the opposite sex nor are allowed to marry into their own sex. Just because people do not talk does not mean that a good portion of the population are not suffering in silence.
And you say sexless marriage is none sense or does not/cannot exist?
What do the doctors on this forum think?To start with, you invented a senseless conjuncture, and to top it up, you are trying to defend it by posting the quoted silly justifications. If one goes by your criteria, then all marriages should be classified as sexless.
How could you come up with "relation with MMA as sexless" with absolutely No evidence from Quran, specially when we have just the opposite proves from quran in the shape of 70-29.30
I don't think I needed to pen down the following explanation , specially for a sensible , mature woman like you , but alas I have to go through this agony.
The basic spirit behind the contract known as Marriage is putting a Man and woman together for reproduction, which can not be achieved without sexual intercourse.
Any contract which prohibits a sexual liaison between them as a pre condition could be called any thing , but a marriage.siki
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The accusation itself is not zina, but the accusation is about zina, is it not? Why would the context be about one thing and the accusation about another?
No, accusation is not of zina, but of committing fornication, which when proven , becomes zina. And if not proven (less than 4 witnesses) would remain an accusation, and that is precisely being discouraged with dire consequences of 80 lashes.
siki
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But where is that verse that requires 4 witnesses for az-zina to take place, the verse that defines az-zina as public sex, the verse that mentions "zina" and "four witnesses" together?
The 'Zee word' has not been used anywhere in the Quran with "four witnesses".
I would agree with you here, there is no direct verse stating so, We have deduced this by interpolating different verses on the subject, and this deduction is not 100% but is most likely, we do need to work and fill up this gap. But so far, any other explanation, specially yours, is no where close, and till the time we come up with such deductions, which improve upon the %tage , I would stick with the Most likely scenario.
siki
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I think i had explained this,
In addition to eid's arguments, one must understand, It is not about the Mohsinnate being rich , but you being poor, and hence the ayat is about recommending a cheaper alternate in the shape of a Maiden Believing Mohsinate among Ma Malakat category, because she will be more than happy to upgrade herself with a much less ajar.
And you must note that this recommendation is for,
1, she should be Mohsinna, (Not fahisha, zania, mushriqa from Ma Malakat category)
2. she should be a Mominna (Not an otul kitab among Ma Malakat category)
3. And among Ma Malakat, a fatayat (young maiden) should be your first choice.peace
siki
Lucky poor man! A young virgin and chaste maiden is grateful that a poor man is upgrading her! What if she was aware of her assets and wanted to be upgraded by a rich man? And why doesn't this poor man marry an old widow/divorcee/spinster?