Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

On deeper research of the meaning of "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah", I have a feeling that BOTH of us have the wrong understanding of who "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah is"

You still have not answered some simple questions that I asked you. Please try to find the correct answers to them, which will lead you to the correct understanding.

What does "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" mean in 2237?
Who does it refer to?

"Allathee biyadihi" does not mean "guardian" so your point of being able to choose a guardian of oqdat al-nikah is moot. Guardian is a wrong translation here so it cannot be referring to a guardian of the marriage contract.

Once the correct meaning of "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" is ascertained/determined, then the correct understanding of 2237 will become apparent. You will realize that "oqdat al-nikah" has to be physical/tangible because of the phrase "allathee biyadihi" preceding it. You will also realize that "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" has to be a witness to the marriage. How can a non-witness forgive something he has never witnessed? How can "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" be not a witness? How can it be "biyadihi" and not be physical/tangible? Another clue is that "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" refers to a male.

I now have a new understanding of WHO it is, which might surprise you but will make sense. If it is who I think it is, then you were partially correct and I was partially correct. Let's see if you come up with the same understanding and then I will reveal my new understanding

Thank you for the intellectual stimulation, which enabled me to form the new understanding. yay

almarh0m

Peace

Just what is the difference between the 'common definition of marriage' in every culture and 'marriage' according to Islam or The Qur'an ? I would have thought that most people get married for largely the same reasons , namely love , companionship , procreation etc , we can assume that most people who got married had hope that their marriage union will last forever . However , the reality of it is quite different , statistics inform us that most marriages end in divorce .

As for procedures and requirement for a Legal Marriage , it varies from one culture to another , I know that in Islam , for a marriage to take place ....both parties to the marriage must consent to the marriage , both the bride and the groom have come of age , the groom paid for the pre-agreed Dowry to the bride's family and of course the marriage has to be witnessed and preferaby announced to the local community where they reside .

Somebody mention about the 'Furqan' or 'The Criterion' from which right or wrong is determined , in which definition of marriage that sex before marriage is permitted or suggestion to this effect ? The reality is .....that sex before marriage happens accross all races and cultures and religions , but it does not mean that Islam through the Qur'an encourages it or allow it .

If you have a new understanding regarding this matter please share it with us .

Cheers

almarh0m

truthseeker11

Peace almarhom,

Of course there is no sex before nikah/marriage. What we are trying to determine is what constitutes nikah/marriage according to the qur'aan and what are its requirements.

the groom paid for the pre-agreed Dowry to the bride's family

The dowry is to be given by the groom to the bride, not the bride's family.

of course the marriage has to be witnessed

And the qur'aanic evidence of this is .......... ?

preferaby announced to the local community where they reside

And the qur'aanic evidence of this is .......... ?

almarh0m

Peace truthseeker11

I believe that a Marriage in Islam is regarded as Civil Contract , in view of that I believe that 2282 is appropriate .

"O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things" (2282) .

Peace

almarh0m

truthseeker11

Peace almarhom,

Thank you for the sign.

According to 2282, a written contract is necessary only if there is a loan/debt for a fixed time. So a written contract is necessary only if the dowry is not given immediately at the time of nikah, but is delayed for a fixed time, and hence owed by the groom to the bride to be given after a fixed time.

What if there is no debt over a fixed time and the dowry is given by the groom immediately to the bride at the time of nikah? Then no need for written record

2282 ........................... except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no sin upon you if you do not record it. And have witnesses if you trade. No scribe shall be harmed nor any witness; for if you do so then it is vileness on your part, and be aware of God and God teaches you and God is aware of all things.

As far as witnesses are concerned then according to 2282, there have to be two witnesses to nikah/marriage if it can be considered trade/business because of the dowry involved.

2282 ........................... [except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no sin upon you if you do not record it. And have witnesses if you trade/make an oath/covenant/contract. No scribe shall be harmed nor any witness; for if you do so then it is vileness on your part, and be aware of God and God teaches you and God is aware of all things.

So if dowry is given immediately at the time of nikah then two witnesses necessary, and if dowry is delayed to a future date, then 2 witnesses + a written contract are necessary.

According to project root list

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

= Ba-Ya-Ayn =

Selling or buying
Exchanging or exchange of property
Gaining mastery over someone, superceding or occupying their place also by superior power or force
Making a covenant, an engagement, a contract (e.g. promising allegiance, swearing, oaths)
Hire or hiring of land
Sealing the deal, also striking together hand of two contracting parties in token of the ratification of sale
Manner of selling/buying
An article of merchandise

The meaning in bold will be applicable to nikah/marriage. Nikah/marriage is a solemn/strong covenant

421 And how can you take it when you have become intimate with each other, and the women have taken from you a strong covenant.

2237 refers to divorcing the wife before sex but after setting the dowry, which has not been paid yet, so "oqdat al-nikah" in that sign has to mean "written/recorded marriage contract" in light of 2282. So I was right in that respect.

huruf

I think that there are tacit contracts or written contracts. When a man and a woman move together and live like a married couple openly, there is a tacit contract. If they do not have any problems with each other, then the law doesn't have to do anything except deal with them as a couple, a married couple. Should any problems arise between them, since no contract has been signed, the general law would apply to them.

I don't know, may be that was what Minimak was getting at.

Whereas a marriage where nothing has been written or witnesseam d nor the couple lives like a maried couple, how can one conclude that they are married? Minimak says that if they both are believers, they would not cheat (?) but even accepting that as a fact, would a false believer say I am a false believer do not believe me is I say I really mean marriage when I do it in secret and without a written and witnessed contract?

Salaam

Phil

Peace Phil,

As I clearly see from your post, you have carefully avoided one of the resulting nonsense that arises out of your twisting of The God's words. This forces me to repeat what I said earlier, for the benefit of the readers, but this is the last time I will repeat it.

Peace truthseeker11,

To say that I'm deliberately avoiding to address your arguments equally shows the inability on your side to look and comprehend the simple logic presented to you. The barrier is not to understand the logic but to confront the fundamental belief or perhaps the dogmatic belief that has for a long time remain unchallenged. How most of the time is not about inadequate informations presented to us, rather our own difficulties to change the norms/belief system that has ingrained in our mind due to whatever reasons.

Hence, do repeat your argument as many time as possible, for what matter most at the end of the day is the truth.

Now let's re-examine the verse and see exactly how simple the logic can be.

2221 And do not marry the females who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you. And do not marry the males who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to Paradise and forgiveness by His leave. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.

Your twisting that "mumin" in the context of 2221 means "one who accepts the law of being single before getting married" would result in this utter nonsense

"One who accepts the law of being single before getting married is better than a married person"

From Q2221

"And do not marry the females who set up partners..." in simple term means, do not marry someone's wife. The same goes with the other part of the verse that says "And do not marry the males who set up partners...". It means simply do not marry someone's husband.
"Until they believe" as I have put up my arguments earlier, has to be understood from the context of marriage. Marriage is all about human to human relationship. But the moment you interpret marriage through dogmatic lens, inadvertently the understanding of the term "believe" has to share the same religious connotation in its meaning.
"For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you".
A single lady is better than someone's wife, even if attracts you.
For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you."
A single man is better than someone's husband, even if attracts you.

Summary
Those (marrying married person) invite to the Fire (you can verify this with those in polygamous life ;D), while God is inviting to Paradise (happy couple sun..

How would you deny the statement that marrying a single person is better than marrying a married person/person with partner?

The truth will set you free only if you stop twisting The God's words and be more sincere in knowing the truth rather than twisting it to suit your own desires, and stop hiding a part of The God's signs.

It is more likely for a polygamous person to twist the above verse in order to justify their action, and again it's all about logic. Would you agree with me on this one?

To add to what I said above, I looked up "mushrik" in Lane's Lexicon. It does not mean "one WITH a partner" anywhere. It means "one who attributes/ascribes/assigns partners with God". One with a partner or sharing a partner is called "mushtarak" or "musharrak".

Either "mushtarak" or "musharrak" it is still revolve around the concept of sharing as underlined by the root Shiin-Ra-Kaf. The main understanding of root Shiin-Ra-Kaf is related to the idea of sharing with "something". The question is then, what are we sharing with. This has to be seen from the context of the verse itself. The central theme of Q3221 is about marriage. This is the vital element that need serious consideration for us to better understand the message.

Shiin-Ra-Kaf = to be a companion, be sharer/partner. shirkun - share, participation, polytheism, idolatry, making associate/partner with Allah. shariik (pl. shurakaa) - associate, partner, sharer. Nouns of the second declension when followed by the affixed pronouns take the three inflexions thus shurakaa, shurakaa'i, shurakaa'a. shaarak (vb. 3) - to share with. ashraka (vb. 4) - to make a sharer or associate, give companions (e.g. to God), be a polytheist or idolater. ashraktumuuni - you associated me as partner. mushrik - one who gives associate to God, polytheist. mushtarikun (vb. 8 ) - one who partakes or shares.

"Imaan" can mean "the law brought by the prophet", and using that meaning "mo'min" will be "the one who brings the law", not "the one who accepts the law".

According to your logic, does it mean that we should be a "mo'min"/the one who brings the law? I always thought we are suppose to accept the law, thus become "mo'min". Care to comment?

Peace

nimnimak_11

Peace all

Truthseeker peace

What does "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" mean in 2237?

My arabic knowledge is almost 0.
I rely on www.studyquran.co.uk and the meanings of single words and roots of them.
In this case i am not sure about how to approach this phrase as i do not know the roots of these words. If there is a method for finding out the roots of a word then please let me know as this would be a very useful skill for me.

In honesty, at this moment that phrase is not my main concern. I hope to research it after clearing up this point
An allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah is not a must in a marriage. You may choose to have one. This would mean that the Quran would still accept a verbal mutual commitment as a contract unless i have missed something in the Quran.

Once the correct meaning of "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" is ascertained/determined, then the correct understanding of 2237 will become apparent. You will realize that "oqdat al-nikah" has to be physical/tangible because of the phrase "allathee biyadihi" preceding it. You will also realize that "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" has to be a witness to the marriage. How can a non-witness forgive something he has never witnessed? How can "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" be not a witness? How can it be "biyadihi" and not be physical/tangible? Another clue is that "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" refers to a male.

Currently my point still is that "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" is not a must in a quranic marriage. The meaning is something I hope to understand after attempting to clarify this. I seek you and the insight of others to see if my point is correct (that is what i mean by attempting to clarify).

I now have a new understanding of WHO it is, which might surprise you but will make sense. If it is who I think it is, then you were partially correct and I was partially correct. Let's see if you come up with the same understanding and then I will reveal my new understanding

Thank you for the intellectual stimulation, which enabled me to form the new understanding.

You are most welcome. I look forward to your new understanding )

There are two questions i would appreciate if you answer as i have not come across them in the Quran

compulsion in having a "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah"
Written dowry

I will reply with the rest soon

peace

Fahad1

Salaam Fahad
Brother ! as my ID indicates ,I am a student.

Brother, I m also a student but I will not discourage anyone from referring to the Quran to clarify his/her confusions.

I admit that I have no idea what the "zina" is according to Quran.

If we admit that we have no idea about the issue at hand and that our understanding is based only on preconceived notions, then IMHO we should not be quick in dismissing and/or harsh in criticizing the understanding of others.

I will appreciate ,if you could throw some light and give the difination of Zina according to Quran.
Thanks in advance.
Regards

Sure, in the next post.
And no problem.

Q_student

Brother, I m also a student but I will not discourage anyone from referring to the Quran to clarify his/her confusions.

If we admit that we have no idea about the issue at hand and that our understanding is based only on preconceived notions, then IMHO we should not be quick in dismissing and/or harsh in criticizing the understanding of others.

Sure, in the next post.
And no problem.

Thanks Fahad
I hope you will keep your words.
Regards

Fahad1

Nyma, Q_student and everyone else,

From what I understand

Allah commands(in 2/282) that transactions be written down and witnessed. According to verse 4/24, when a man is to enjoy a woman, the woman has the right to demand an ajr. Since that is a transaction taking place, it is also to be written down and witnessed as recommended in 2/282. I am not sure if any such transaction can be a "tijaaratun haziratun" so to exempt the writing and witnessing.

BUT it does not say that if it is not written down and witnessed that it will not be a transaction. It does not say that not writing down the transaction and not witnessing it will make it fahish and punishable.

Coming to the definition of az-zina, I think it is wrong to say that az-zina includes "pre-marital" sex because

If we pay close attention to the context of 24/2(the verse ordaining punishment for the az-zina), we realize that for az-zina to occur, az-zaani can be any man, "married" or not, but the az-zaaniya must be a "married" woman

Verse 24/4 talks about those who accuse al-muhsinaat of committing az-zina

24/4 And those who accuse al-muhsinaat, then do not bring four witnesses, therefore you shall lash them eighty lashes,....

According to verse 4/25, a woman is made muhsina through nikah. That is, a muhsina is a nikah-ed woman.

Then again, in 24/6 it talks about husbands accusing their wives

24/6 And those who accuse their azwaaj, and have no witnesses for them except themselves,....

In both verses above, the woman is "married". It means that the punishment of az-zina is only for the act of committing polyandry. That is, only for the woman committing polyandry and the man assisting her. The act could not have been az-zina, had the woman not been "married". Therefore az-zina is polyandrous.

I think this is why verse 24/2 mentions the zaainya first and the zaani second, as it could not have been az-zina without the polyandrous woman. Everywhere else that I can remember, the man is always mentioned first, and the woman second.

Therefore, az-zina is not about "pre-marital" sex but only about polyandry(or "adultery" from the woman's side).

That is my understanding of this issue. If anyone here knows better, please correct me.

Thanks.

Q_student

Nyma, Q_student and everyone else,

From what I understand

Allah commands(in 2/282) that transactions be written down and witnessed. According to verse 4/24, when a man is to enjoy a woman, the woman has the right to demand an ajr. Since that is a transaction taking place, it is also to be written down and witnessed as recommended in 2/282. I am not sure if any such transaction can be a "tijaaratun haziratun" so to exempt the writing and witnessing.

BUT it does not say that if it is not written down and witnessed that it will not be a transaction. It does not say that not writing down the transaction and not witnessing it will make it fahish and punishable.

Coming to the definition of az-zina, I think it is wrong to say that az-zina includes "pre-marital" sex because

If we pay close attention to the context of 24/2(the verse ordaining punishment for the az-zina), we realize that for az-zina to occur, the zaani can be any man, "married" or not, but the zaaniya must be a "married" woman