Gelatin & Additives
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Forgot to reply on the gelatin, gelatin is obtained mostly from the bones... But my opinion is, nothing can be consume from the pig as per my understanding.
You then misunderstood/did not understand the verses from the Quran. The fat is NOT "lahm". It is 100% lawful. Please remember 6146 and how SPECIFIC the prohibitions were for the Jews.
Furthermore, in 6146 "lahm"/meat IS NOT MENTIONED.
6146 WaAAala allatheena hadooharramna kulla thee thufurinwamina albaqari waalghanami harramnaAAalayhim shuhoomahuma illa ma hamalatthuhooruhuma awi alhawayaaw ma ikhtalata biAAathmin thalikajazaynahum bibaghyihim wa-inna lasadiqoona
6146 For those who are Jewish, We forbade all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
This proves that the fat is lawful. I have NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER regarding that issue. Absolutely no doubt. As for gelatine...I am not sure. It is not "lahm" so technically it shouldnt be forbidden.
However, the brain is absolutely forbidden. It is part of the "lahm". I have no doubt regarding that issue.Peace
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You then misunderstood/did not understand the verses from the Quran. The fat is NOT "lahm". It is 100% lawful. Please remember 6146 and how SPECIFIC the prohibitions were for the Jews.
Furthermore, in 6146 "lahm"/meat IS NOT MENTIONED.
6146 WaAAala allatheena hadooharramna kulla thee thufurinwamina albaqari waalghanami harramnaAAalayhim shuhoomahuma illa ma hamalatthuhooruhuma awi alhawayaaw ma ikhtalata biAAathmin thalikajazaynahum bibaghyihim wa-inna lasadiqoona
6146 For those who are Jewish, We forbade all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
This proves that the fat is lawful. I have NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER regarding that issue. Absolutely no doubt. As for gelatine...I am not sure. It is not "lahm" so technically it shouldnt be forbidden.
However, the brain is absolutely forbidden. It is part of the "lahm". I have no doubt regarding that issue.Peace
Peace
Here God says "We forbade all that have claws", not the MEAT of those with claws. Meaning the whole of the animal is prohibited.
But when God tells us to not eat the flesh of the pig, He is being specific to the flesh. The same when He is prohibiting the fat of cattle and sheep to the Jews. Also, when prohibiting the fat, God further specifies what fat is OK.
That is what I understand at the moment so please let me know if there is anything wrong of my understanding.Regarding the reason why the flesh of pigs is prohibited yet those who eat the flesh do not get ill from it, can it be a test?
Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed
We eat the meat of animals of claws and the fat of cattle and sheep and we don't get ill. So for the present Jews, even though the food prohibited to them doesn't cause illness, they cannot consume it as it is a test.
Can the prohibition of the flesh of the pig also be a test for all those who were prohibited from eating its flesh?
God bless
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Peace
Here God says "We forbade all that have claws", not the MEAT of those with claws. Meaning the whole of the animal is prohibited.
But when God tells us to not eat the flesh of the pig, He is being specific to the flesh. The same when He is prohibiting the fat of cattle and sheep to the Jews. Also, when prohibiting the fat, God further specifies what fat is OK.
That is what I understand at the moment so please let me know if there is anything wrong of my understanding.Regarding the reason why the flesh of pigs is prohibited yet those who eat the flesh do not get ill from it, can it be a test?
Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed
We eat the meat of animals of claws and the fat of cattle and sheep and we don't get ill. So for the present Jews, even though the food prohibited to them doesn't cause illness, they cannot consume it as it is a test.
Can the prohibition of the flesh of the pig also be a test for all those who were prohibited from eating its flesh?
God bless
6145 Say, "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden for an eater except that it be already dead, or blood poured forth, or the meat of pig, for it is foul/contaminated; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Compassionate.
The Jews made-up their own prohibitions just like today's Sunnis/Shias. God punished them with more prohibitions. God is inviting the Jews though back to the original prohibitions (i believe). Remember, Jesus wanted to lessen the prohibitions for the Jews - check the Quran.
Peace
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You then misunderstood/did not understand the verses from the Quran. The fat is NOT "lahm". It is 100% lawful. Please remember 6146 and how SPECIFIC the prohibitions were for the Jews.
Furthermore, in 6146 "lahm"/meat IS NOT MENTIONED.
6146 WaAAala allatheena hadooharramna kulla thee thufurinwamina albaqari waalghanami harramnaAAalayhim shuhoomahuma illa ma hamalatthuhooruhuma awi alhawayaaw ma ikhtalata biAAathmin thalikajazaynahum bibaghyihim wa-inna lasadiqoona
6146 For those who are Jewish, We forbade all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
This proves that the fat is lawful. I have NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER regarding that issue. Absolutely no doubt. As for gelatine...I am not sure. It is not "lahm" so technically it shouldnt be forbidden.
However, the brain is absolutely forbidden. It is part of the "lahm". I have no doubt regarding that issue.Peace
You are taking the 6146 in isolation while it is in straight relation with 6145 and continuing it. The word LAHM is mentioned in 6145. Also, it seems that you are totally disregarding the other verses i posted. How will you explain the other verses for the fish and so on? Also, news1988 raised a good point regarding the claws.
If we take verses from the Quran in isolation and derive rule from them, we risk of not finding the real truth. Because the Quran EXPLAINS itself by itself. So, ayahs should complement one another... For instance your logic works perfectly when you look at 6146 in isolation... However, if you will take time to look at the verses I posted regarding fish etc... You will surely find yourself with some obstruction and you are forced to find the right way which will make these verses agree with one another.
Regarding the brains, how can you be 100% its flesh? We all know its jelly like, more fat that flesh. However, forget this one else we will be going in circle without achieving anything.
Salaam
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Peace,
Interesting conversation this one. It sought me to re-examine my understanding, however not to worry, my interpretation is not important.
I wanted to comment on what the brain is made of Neurones and Glial cells. Although the myelin coating neurones is 70% lipid (fat) the rest of the cell is not, so the brain is like any other 'entrail' it is made of specialised cells and not chiefly protein or fat.
Please bear in mind that the majority of capsules you would eat as medication have gelatin shells. In the UK manufacturers are tending to use synthesised forms of gelatin as opposed to that derived from pocine or bovine sources because of possible germs the gelatin could contain. In this situation that you are taking pork gelatin along with your medecine - would this be allowed? In my opinion it doesn't matter because you are taking the medication in a 'pork wrapper' and correct the gelatin is not derived from the flesh/muscle tissue, but from bone then you are allowed to take it. I do not believe that God would make life that difficult for us, although the world is moving away from deriving these essentials from animals due to germs.
In the quranic context, the sign about what was forbidden for the Jews is significant, and indeed we must take the whole quran to seek all answers about this, at the moment most of us, including I are just providing opinions based on limited information - lets dig deeper...
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Peace,
Interesting conversation this one. It sought me to re-examine my understanding, however not to worry, my interpretation is not important.
I wanted to comment on what the brain is made of Neurones and Glial cells. Although the myelin coating neurones is 70% lipid (fat) the rest of the cell is not, so the brain is like any other 'entrail' it is made of specialised cells and not chiefly protein or fat.
Please bear in mind that the majority of capsules you would eat as medication have gelatin shells. In the UK manufacturers are tending to use synthesised forms of gelatin as opposed to that derived from pocine or bovine sources because of possible germs the gelatin could contain. In this situation that you are taking pork gelatin along with your medecine - would this be allowed? In my opinion it doesn't matter because you are taking the medication in a 'pork wrapper' and correct the gelatin is not derived from the flesh/muscle tissue, but from bone then you are allowed to take it. I do not believe that God would make life that difficult for us, although the world is moving away from deriving these essentials from animals due to germs.
In the quranic context, the sign about what was forbidden for the Jews is significant, and indeed we must take the whole quran to seek all answers about this, at the moment most of us, including I are just providing opinions based on limited information - lets dig deeper...
Salaam
Thanks for the input... Always nice to get new opinions and views.
Thanks for the brains D
As regard to medication, if there is no other alternative and we badly need this, then I THINK its not a problem to take it. Since life depends on it and is more important. However, as for candies and so on... well, we cannot say we do not have other options... All life threatening situations are exceptional situations.
However, since you mentioned that BRAIN can be counted among the entrails, the immediate question that comes to the mind is, are we allowed to eat it? Because the word ENTRAILS (HAWAAYAA) has been used in the Quran and in the prohibition for pig, only LAHM is mentioned and not HAWAAYAA... I hope you guys are getting my point.
My view remain unchanged so far, LAHM does not restrict only to the pure flesh, but convey the meaning of all eatable stuff from an animal.
Wassalaam
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You are taking the 6146 in isolation while it is in straight relation with 6145 and continuing it. The word LAHM is mentioned in 6145. Also, it seems that you are totally disregarding the other verses i posted. How will you explain the other verses for the fish and so on? Also, news1988 raised a good point regarding the claws.
If we take verses from the Quran in isolation and derive rule from them, we risk of not finding the real truth. Because the Quran EXPLAINS itself by itself. So, ayahs should complement one another... For instance your logic works perfectly when you look at 6146 in isolation... However, if you will take time to look at the verses I posted regarding fish etc... You will surely find yourself with some obstruction and you are forced to find the right way which will make these verses agree with one another.
Regarding the brains, how can you be 100% its flesh? We all know its jelly like, more fat that flesh. However, forget this one else we will be going in circle without achieving anything.
Salaam
Peace,
yes a circular arguement could occur and i dont want that to happen.
However, I'll give you an exampleYou give a plate french fries and fat to a vegetarian. You dont tell him what kind of fat and he eats it, because it's not meat. Furthermore, if he/she is not a radical vegetarian, and you tell him/her, then he/she will eat it.
However if you give him/her a brain, regardless of what animal, he/she will refuse to eat it. I guarantee you.
OK, regarding the point that "lahm" means all that is eatable of the animal...
This is totally illogical. Why? Because God is talking about prohibitions for eaters/food prohibitions. So God will only prohibit what is eat/drinkable, right? He will not say "say i do not find anything in the revelations given to me prohinbited for an eater except if it is jewelery, sand and stones", right?
So the verse is dealing with anything that we can eat/drink.So what would be the logic in using the word "lahm" if the whole pig is prohibited for consumprion?
Why did God out in the very next verse the specific prohibitions for Jews with exact references to the different fats in the cattle (or whatever animal it was)?? It was to show how exact the prohibitions are that God makes.
When God prohibits meat, he prohibits meat; when he prohibits fat, he prohibits fat, and nothing else.
Hope you understand this.
Peace -
Peace
Aha, thanks for that.
But what about today's Jews? Would the verse I gave in my last post apply to them?
God bless
Remember that God is inviting the Jews to abide by the the Quran. And remember that the Quran sometimes supersedes the previous scriptures (Gospels and Torah).
I also think that these were the original prohibitons, but it might not be the case.
Peace
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Remember that God is inviting the Jews to abide by the the Quran. And remember that the Quran sometimes supersedes the previous scriptures (Gospels and Torah).
I also think that these were the original prohibitons, but it might not be the case.
Peace
Dear Progressive
May I ask you how do you include "brain" in "meat". Brain is a different tissue than "flesh " which is muscular tissue.
Flesh i.e muscular tissue has the property to conctract.Have you ever seen brain "contracting and relaxing" like flesh ????
Regards -
Dear Progressive
May I ask you how do you include "brain" in "meat". Brain is a different tissue than "flesh " which is muscular tissue.
Flesh i.e muscular tissue has the property to conctract.Have you ever seen brain "contracting and relaxing" like flesh ????
RegardsHe just replied in his earlier post that when presented to a person, he will surely ask what is it before he eats it... A logic which do not stand at all as the for someone to question or not lies 100% in the discretion of the person and is not a generality.
On the other hand, if we take the BRAIN to be among the entrails, then again, according to progressive, it becomes lawful to consume it as there is no TEXTUAL prohibition on the entrails of the pig...
@progressive.
How would you reconcile the verse on the LAHM TWARIYAN? The fish from rivers and seas... Its pointless to discuss the minute precision emplyed in the Quran as both me and you are convince on that. The point is reconciliating all the verses and harmonize them... If you can look again, that would be very good. We know that Allah does not lack words.. the work fish has been used in the Quran as HOOT... however, why did Allah used the word LAHM and not hoot?
To give you a clue, we do not get only fish from the sea but sea cucumbers as well...
The issue is a bit intriguing, however we can come to a concensus God willing...
Wassalaam
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He just replied in his earlier post that when presented to a person, he will surely ask what is it before he eats it... A logic which do not stand at all as the for someone to question or not lies 100% in the discretion of the person and is not a generality.
On the other hand, if we take the BRAIN to be among the entrails, then again, according to progressive, it becomes lawful to consume it as there is no TEXTUAL prohibition on the entrails of the pig...
@progressive.
How would you reconcile the verse on the LAHM TWARIYAN? The fish from rivers and seas... Its pointless to discuss the minute precision emplyed in the Quran as both me and you are convince on that. The point is reconciliating all the verses and harmonize them... If you can look again, that would be very good. We know that Allah does not lack words.. the work fish has been used in the Quran as HOOT... however, why did Allah used the word LAHM and not hoot?
To give you a clue, we do not get only fish from the sea but sea cucumbers as well...
The issue is a bit intriguing, however we can come to a concensus God willing...
Wassalaam
Peace
Brain cannot be included in flesh through any parameter.Embryologically ,Physiologically ,histologically,or Linguisitically ,the brain is a different thing from the flesh.
He should not put them together.
Regards -
He just replied in his earlier post that when presented to a person, he will surely ask what is it before he eats it... A logic which do not stand at all as the for someone to question or not lies 100% in the discretion of the person and is not a generality.
On the other hand, if we take the BRAIN to be among the entrails, then again, according to progressive, it becomes lawful to consume it as there is no TEXTUAL prohibition on the entrails of the pig...
@progressive.
How would you reconcile the verse on the LAHM TWARIYAN? The fish from rivers and seas... Its pointless to discuss the minute precision emplyed in the Quran as both me and you are convince on that. The point is reconciliating all the verses and harmonize them... If you can look again, that would be very good. We know that Allah does not lack words.. the work fish has been used in the Quran as HOOT... however, why did Allah used the word LAHM and not hoot?
To give you a clue, we do not get only fish from the sea but sea cucumbers as well...
The issue is a bit intriguing, however we can come to a concensus God willing...
Wassalaam
What's "lahm twariyan"? Which verse do you mean?
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What's "lahm twariyan"? Which verse do you mean?
Peace. Sorry for late reply and short on words. I am currently on mobile. You can find LAHM TWARIYAN mentioned in two verses of the quran at 1614 and 3512
To outline my point on this. We do not get only pure flesh that we eat from rivers and seas. I mean these animals also got entrails and so on. We do eat the eggs of fishes which are often found inside them. There is also the famous and well known CAVIAR! And its not flesh but the eggs which are found inside the fish. If LAHM TWARIYAN would mean only sure flesh and muscle tissue, then eggs, entrails etc would become unlawful for eating which is not the case.
May Allah guide us all.
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Peace. Sorry for late reply and short on words. I am currently on mobile. You can find LAHM TWARIYAN mentioned in two verses of the quran at 1614 and 3512
To outline my point on this. We do not get only pure flesh that we eat from rivers and seas. I mean these animals also got entrails and so on. We do eat the eggs of fishes which are often found inside them. There is also the famous and well known CAVIAR! And its not flesh but the eggs which are found inside the fish. If LAHM TWARIYAN would mean only sure flesh and muscle tissue, then eggs, entrails etc would become unlawful for eating which is not the case.
May Allah guide us all.
1614 Wahuwa allathee sakhkhara albahralita/kuloo minhu lahman tariyyan watastakhrijoominhu hilyatan talbasoonaha watara alfulkamawakhira feehi walitabtaghoo min fadlihiwalaAAallakum tashkuroona
1614 He is the One who committed the sea, that you may eat from it tender meat, and that you may extract from it pearls that you wear. You see the ships flowing through it, so that you may seek from His bounty, and that you may be thankful.
3512 Wama yastawee albahranihatha AAathbun furatun sa-ighun sharabuhuwahatha milhun ojajun wamin kullinta/kuloona lahman tariyyan watastakhrijoona hilyatantalbasoonaha watara alfulka feehi mawakhiralitabtaghoo min fadlihi walaAAallakum tashkuroona
3512 Nor are the two seas the same. One is fresh and palatable, good to drink, while the other is salty and bitter. From each of them you eat tender meat, and you extract jewelry to wear. You see the ships sailing through them, seeking His provisions; and perhaps you may be appreciative.
What you dont understand is that THRERE IS NO PROHIBITION IN THOSE VERSES. God says that we MAY/DO eat the flesh of fish. There is, however NO PROHIBITION. Therefore, it is unnecessary to meantion caviar.
The verses are totally different from 6145 where it says that the meat of pigs is PROHIBITED.
Peace
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Salam,
Gelatine made from bones and skins from animals are sterile because it is boiled in high temperature and are processed in factories to get those gelatine leaves or powder. You cannot get virus for eating gelatine but brains and flesh and blood from especially pig can contain viruses and worms etc.
Maria
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Salam,
Gelatine made from bones and skins from animals are sterile because it is boiled in high temperature and are processed in factories to get those gelatine leaves or powder. You cannot get virus for eating gelatine but brains and flesh and blood from especially pig can contain viruses and worms etc.
Maria
Peace,
What if pig flesh is boiled at the same high temperatures? Does it make it sterile?
God bless
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1614 Wahuwa allathee sakhkhara albahralita/kuloo minhu lahman tariyyan watastakhrijoominhu hilyatan talbasoonaha watara alfulkamawakhira feehi walitabtaghoo min fadlihiwalaAAallakum tashkuroona
1614 He is the One who committed the sea, that you may eat from it tender meat, and that you may extract from it pearls that you wear. You see the ships flowing through it, so that you may seek from His bounty, and that you may be thankful.
3512 Wama yastawee albahranihatha AAathbun furatun sa-ighun sharabuhuwahatha milhun ojajun wamin kullinta/kuloona lahman tariyyan watastakhrijoona hilyatantalbasoonaha watara alfulka feehi mawakhiralitabtaghoo min fadlihi walaAAallakum tashkuroona
3512 Nor are the two seas the same. One is fresh and palatable, good to drink, while the other is salty and bitter. From each of them you eat tender meat, and you extract jewelry to wear. You see the ships sailing through them, seeking His provisions; and perhaps you may be appreciative.
What you dont understand is that THRERE IS NO PROHIBITION IN THOSE VERSES. God says that we MAY/DO eat the flesh of fish. There is, however NO PROHIBITION. Therefore, it is unnecessary to meantion caviar.
The verses are totally different from 6145 where it says that the meat of pigs is PROHIBITED.
Peace
Any idea why Allah used the word LAHM and not the word HOOT which means fish?
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Probably because scallops are quite sweet and tender... crab and lobster meat too. Don't know about mussels, they seem icky.