Isa ibn Maryam
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I agree with the post about the virgin birth. In the hebrew, almah means 'young woman' if they meant virgin they would have used bethulah. This should clear the matter, but christians are very persistent on using the greek translation of the hebrew instead of the original hebrew lol.
I have often said, do not study any religion too closely or you may turn into an atheist. I have been a comparative religion teacher and lecturer for some ten years now (really been that long? bah.. lol) and there were times when I just found atheism to be the much clearer path, yet I was gloomily depressed at the lack of an almighty creator (the security blanket argument atheists use as it were).
I still battle with the question of evil (theodicy). If God is all knowing, then he is responsible ( as in he could have intervened, if only for the little ones. ) for allowing all these atrocities to happen or for the drowning of infants in their cribs (as in the case of Katrina in New Orleans, LA a few years back in the states. Many people drowned, eldery and infant.)
I was appalled when I read the hadiths and stories of the Sahaba.. there was a case where a mother was an attendant to Pharaoh's daughter, and when she refused to acknowledge him as God, as she only prayed to Allah, Pharaoh had all her children boiled in oil and Allah had her infant speak up "Mom, do not stop now.. you are close to Jannah." and she let Pharaoh boil her infant then herself. Even typing it leaves a distaste, where infant death is celebrated.
Of course, the Old Testament is not much better..There is a story in it of when the israelites slew a mass of people, retaining the virgins for themself and giving God a portion ( of course, the more seedy part is how they tested for virginity.. I will spare that here.)
Ah well, before I write another book in a post here, I will wrap it up.
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The way God acts has alot to do with purpose.
If there is no eternal afterlife, so this life is meaningless and should be terminated before it even began.
If God spoke to us directly, then everyone will believe.
If God didn't punish the first generations, no one would have believed.
If God kept punishing, everyone would have believed.
If God intervened to save the children, everyone would have believed.
If everyone believed, there is no point in life.
If everyone disbelieved, there is still no point in life.
If God talked and walked with us, there is no point in death.
The only way to create something without considering it playing is to keep it forever.
Thats why the Angels never die. And Adam would have served God in the Garden of Eden forever if he hadn't eaten from the tree.
And even the criminals won't die in the Fire. They will stay there. Because if they did die, then God was playing with them.
Eternity makes everything count and creates absolute purpose.
Thats why I believe in the Quran.
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I do not consider it 'playing' when children at this moment are dying in Africa because of starvation, nor playing when those infants drowned in the event I spoke of in New Orleans.
This is the sort of thing that drives people away from faith. Sure, the survivors say it was God's grace.. but why was it easy for God to save them and not everyone?
I appreciate your post as it was a statement of opinions. Yet, it does little for me personally in explaination on theodicy and that is ok too.
I will not take all your points in response, but the three that I did zero in on as it were
If everyone believed, there is no point in life.
According to the Old Testament and both Jewish and Christian belief systems, God was walking in the Garden and spoke directly with Adam. Since only Adam and Eve existed, and they believed and saw God as real as I see your avatar.. then they constituted everyone. So, was there no point in their creation by your logic?
You may, if you like, execute a flourish of points about how Islam is not Jewish or Christian lore.. Or about the talking snake and the fruit.. Yet, I would respect and admire you more if you took my point as it stands. )
If everyone disbelieved, there is still no point in life.
Refer to the first point.
If God talked and walked with us, there is no point in death.
Refer to the first point.
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Doesn't the Quran give an account of the virgin birth quoting Mary saying "how can that be as I have not been touched b y a man"?
No, not at all. Rather, this simply says that Maryam hadn't been touched by a man by the time the angelic messenger came and spoke to her. It doesn't mean that she didn't have intercourse with a man after this incident... The angel says that it is "easy" for God to do these things. This doesn't mean that Jesus was shaped directly by God; it means that God is capable of governing things. In Maryam's position, based on the Jewish tradition for the Levite children (sons and daughters of Aaron), she was forbidden from intermixing with the members of other tribes, one of whom was Joseph, who became her husband. God made Maryam a "aya"/sign to the Jews that many of their traditions were NOT in harmony with His commandments in the Torah, which is also a message that Jesus preached to the Pharisees... There's nothing in the Qur'aan that alleges that Maryam was a 'virgin' when she gave birth to Jesus...
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Ahmed Mirza was a false messenger and his story off Jesus is nothing but tempt extracted from the history of Afghans. ???
Perhaps this is true... However, this still doesn't make the story untrue. It makes much more sense than the traditional Islaamic and Christian interpretations. And based on the scriptures, it is very likely that Ahmad Mirza's view was correct...
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No, not at all. Rather, this simply says that Maryam hadn't been touched by a man by the time the angelic messenger came and spoke to her. It doesn't mean that she didn't have intercourse with a man after this incident... The angel says that it is "easy" for God to do these things. This doesn't mean that Jesus was shaped directly by God; it means that God is capable of governing things. In Maryam's position, based on the Jewish tradition for the Levite children (sons and daughters of Aaron), she was forbidden from intermixing with the members of other tribes, one of whom was Joseph, who became her husband. God made Maryam a "aya"/sign to the Jews that many of their traditions were NOT in harmony with His commandments in the Torah, which is also a message that Jesus preached to the Pharisees... There's nothing in the Qur'aan that alleges that Maryam was a 'virgin' when she gave birth to Jesus...
Yes, it does say that doesn't it. Thank you, that helps me with my church.
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197 "O Zachariah, We give you glad tidings of a son whose name is John. We have not given that name before to anyone."
198 He said, "My Lord, how can I have a son when my wife is infertile, and I have reached a very old age?"
198 He said, "My Lord, how can I have a son when my wife is infertile, and I have reached a very old age?"
199 He said, "It is such that your Lord has said. It is an easy thing for Me. I had created you before when you were not even anything."
1910 He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."
1911 So he went out amongst his people from the temple enclosure, and he indicated to them that they should glorify Him at dawn and dusk.
1912 "O John, take the book with confidence." We gave him authority while in his youth.
1913 He had kindness from Us and purity, and he was ever righteous.
1914 Dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient.
1915 Peace be upon him the day he was born, and the day he dies, and the day he is resurrected alive.
1916 Relate in the book Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east.
1917 She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human in all similarity.
1918 She said, "I seek refuge with the Gracious from you if you are a person of acknowledgment."
1919 He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, that He may grant you the gift of a pure son."
1920 She said, "How can I have a son when no human has touched me, nor do I desire such?"
1921 He said, "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained."
1922 So she was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place.
....
1927 Then she came to her people carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have come with something totally unexpected!"
1928 "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!"
1929 So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk to someone who is a child in a cradle?"
1930 He said, "I am God's servant, He has given me the book and made me a prophet."
Jesus had a mircaulous birth, as evidenced by the above verses.
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1919 He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, that He may grant you the gift of a pure son."
1920 She said, "How can I have a son when no human has touched me, nor do I desire such?"
1921 He said, "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained."
Jesus had a mircaulous birth, as evidenced by the above verses.
C'mon, Progressive, you've gotta do better than this... nope These passages aren't even translated correctly; in fact, they were probably DELIBERATELY MISTRANSLATED to fit with a preconceived notion. Here are some examples, just for reference...
(1) First of all, 1919 doesn't say that God would grant Maryam the gift, it says the angel came to do it. You added words in the passage to tie into your notions...
(2) 1920 does NOT say that 'she didn't desire such'. That's an outright fabrication! The passage plainly says "wa'alam aku baghiyyaan", or "and I was not a prostitute/harlot/fornicator". It doesn't say anything about her desiring anything.
(3) The passage in 1921 says that the child would be a sign TO THE PEOPLE. How would he serve as a sign to the people by being born of a virgin? Nobody could verify that he was born of a virgin, since they weren't present during his conception. So, obviously this verse is talking about something else.
1927 Then she came to her people carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have come with something totally unexpected!"
Another mistranslation... This actually says that Maryam came with something "confusing". This is because her action (marrying Joseph) was against the Levite tradition. Her family members were confused by this action, which is why they questioned her.
1928 "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!"
Tell me, what was the significance of them referring to her as the "sister of Aaron" in this passage? Why does it make a difference? The answer is BECAUSE SHE VIOLATED THEIR TRADITION. She married somebody outside of this bloodline, and it confused her people. That's why they called her this...
Jesus' birth was only miraculous because it was pre-announced. Other than that, he was born the same way all other children of Adam were born...
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(1) First of all, 1919 doesn't say that God would grant Maryam the gift, it says the angel came to do it. You added words in the passage to tie into your notions...
1919 He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, that He may grant you the gift of a pure son." (QRT)
1919 He said "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a pure son." (FM - old)
1919 answered "I' am but a messenger of thy Sustainer, `I shall bestow upon thee the gift of a son endowed with purity.'" (M. Asad)
1919 He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son." (Rashad Khalifa)
1919 He said I am only a messenger of your Lord who says, "I shall bestow upon you the gift of a son endowed with a spotless character." (QXP)
(2) 1920 does NOT say that 'she didn't desire such'. That's an outright fabrication! The passage plainly says "wa'alam aku baghiyyaan", or "and I was not a prostitute/harlot/fornicator". It doesn't say anything about her desiring anything.
Agreed. handshake
1920 She said, "How can I have a son when no man has ever (intimately) touched me? For, never have I been a loose woman!"
(3) The passage in 1921 says that the child would be a sign TO THE PEOPLE. How would he serve as a sign to the people by being born of a virgin? Nobody could verify that he was born of a virgin, since they weren't present during his conception. So, obviously this verse is talking about something else.
What is "something else"?
Another mistranslation... This actually says that Maryam came with something "confusing". This is because her action (marrying Joseph) was against the Levite tradition. Her family members were confused by this action, which is why they questioned her.
The translation I've looked up say either "amazing thing" or "something totally unexpected".
Tell me, what was the significance of them referring to her as the "sister of Aaron" in this passage? Why does it make a difference? The answer is BECAUSE SHE VIOLATED THEIR TRADITION. She married somebody outside of this bloodline, and it confused her people. That's why they called her this...
Jesus' birth was only miraculous because it was pre-announced. Other than that, he was born the same way all other children of Adam were born...
If you want to go by this - fine...
Peace
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Peace Ahmad
Adding to my last post
Jesus and Adam are mentioned the same number of times - 27. (Maybe it is because they have been both created miraculously - hint hint).
6612 Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into her from Our Spirit, and she acknowledged the words of her Lord and His books; and she was of those who were obedient.
Also, I am sure that the thing you called "a sign" is not the (only) sign
5110 God said, "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the book and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said, "This is an obvious magic!""
Please also show me where in the there is an alleged father of Jesus spoken of in the Quran. Tell me where it talks about a normal birth of Jesus.
Peacee
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Peace Progressive,
The Qur'aan refers to Jesus' father. In 684-86, it gives a list of a group of prophets, 18 of them total. Then, at the end of this list, it says this
And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path. (687)
It clearly says "... Wa min aaba ihim...", which literally means 'and from their fathers'. Since Jesus is mentioned in this list, it's talking about his father too... On top of this, there are other prophets mentioned in the scriptures who's fathers aren't mentioned (i.e. Noah, Job, David, Moses, Aaron, Zechariah, all of who's names are also mentioned in this list), yet nobody questions the concept of them actually having fathers. You only question the concept of Jesus having a father because Christianity taught you that Jesus DIDN'T have a father... And if Jesus actually didn't have a father, then why would God include him in this list?
Also, the Qur'aan says
The example of Jesus, as far as God is concerned, is the same as that of Adam He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was. (359)
By reading through the entire passage, it becomes clear that, in this case, Adam is being referred to as the entire human race, not just the one person Adam. This is used as an argument against the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, showing that Jesus is completely human, just like all other humans. This is confirmed in other passages as well, where God says that He created ALL HUMANS from dust, not just Adam (i.e. 1837; 225; 3020; 3511; 4067). So, the passage in 359 is emphasizing that Jesus was made just like the rest of humanity, and this is through normal pregnancy procedures. The Qur'aan never says anything about a "miraculous birth" of Jesus at all, and Maryam is never called a "virgin" in the scripture at all. This concept is a fabrication, adapted from the Christian viewpoint, which was originally adapted from the pagan belief systems of ancient times...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Also, the Qur'aan says
The example of Jesus, as far as God is concerned, is the same as that of Adam He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was. (359)
By reading through the entire passage, it becomes clear that, in this case, Adam is being referred to as the entire human race, not just the one person Adam. This is used as an argument against the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, showing that Jesus is completely human, just like all other humans. This is confirmed in other passages as well, where God says that He created ALL HUMANS from dust, not just Adam (i.e. 1837; 225; 3020; 3511; 4067). So, the passage in 359 is emphasizing that Jesus was made just like the rest of humanity, and this is through normal pregnancy procedures. The Qur'aan never says anything about a "miraculous birth" of Jesus at all, and Maryam is never called a "virgin" in the scripture at all. This concept is a fabrication, adapted from the Christian viewpoint, which was originally adapted from the pagan belief systems of ancient times...
I dont agree with your interpretation. Adam AND Jesus are mentioned 27 times each in the Quran. It was because they both had miraculous creations. I think we differ here and dont think it's worth discussing. From the verses in chapter 19 I can conclde that Jesus did have a miraculous birth without male intervention.
Peace
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The thing is, just because the authors of the New Testament tried to justify the scandalous birth of Jesus by misquoting the Hebrew Bible doesn't mean there wasn't a scandal at all.
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The Ahmadiya account is bogus in my opinion. The only reason they even make the argument is to try to make Jesus more human because their 'Jesus no. 2' died of diarrhea. They're no different than Mormons who claim Jerusalem is in Utah and that Jesus came to the US and that they're a lost tribe of Israel.
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The Quranic account of Jesus' 'death' could easily be harmonized with the tradition Christian account (with the possible exception of the Gospel of John where Jesus actually has hole marks in his hands).
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My own personal view is that Jesus DID die by crucifixion, and that the story should be read in light of 2154 "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not."
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Sparta!
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Peace Progressive,
I dont agree with your interpretation. Adam AND Jesus are mentioned 27 times each in the Quran. It was because they both had miraculous creations.
I don't really understand the significance of this. A lot of other things are also mentioned "27" times in the Qur'aan, and it doesn't mean they have anything to do with Adam or Jesus... Also, the creation of Adam and the birth of Jesus were totally different, to say the least. First of all, Adam didn't have a mother or a father; he was shaped directly by God. This wasn't the case with Jesus, who was actually born to human parents, or at least a human parent. Secondly, Adam's creation spawned the birth of the rest of humanity; this doesn't have anything in comparison to Jesus, who, according to the Biblical account, had no children. Thirdly, nothing in the scriptures suggests that Adam's creation was a sign for anyone, since nobody visibly saw God shape him; it's strictly hearsay turned into belief. There was nothing "miraculous" about Adam's creation, other than the fact that he was the FIRST MAN. If he was the second or third man on the earth, then he would've been born from two parents, just like all other men were.
I think we differ here and dont think it's worth discussing. From the verses in chapter 19 I can conclde that Jesus did have a miraculous birth without male intervention.
Okay, if this is your view, then that's fine; you're entitled to your opinion. I just want to know what your opinion is regarding the passage mentioned in 684-87. Why is Jesus mentioned in this passage if he doesn't have a father? And who of the others mentioned in these verses also lack human fathers?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Al'lah was listening, when the wife of Imr'aan said, "My Sustainer Lord! I have pledged/assigned him who is in my belly, purely and exclusively for You, therefore, You accept it from me.
Certainly You are The Ever Listener, The Knowledgeable".Then, when she delivered her, she said, "My Sustainer Lord! I have delivered her a girl!"; and Allah knew what she had delivered and the male is not like the female; "and I have named her Maryem, and I seek Your refuge for her and her progeny from the accursed Satan"
Thereupon her Sustainer Lord granted her a pleasant acceptance and developed her nicely like nice botanicals and Zakaria took the responsibility of guardian/looking after her.
Each and every time Zakaria had entered the sanctuary to meet her, he always found by her side some of eatables.
He asked, "O Maryam! how/from where you get this sustenance?"
She replied, "That is from the grace of Allah.
Indeed Allah provides sustenance, to whomever He wishes, without measure/cause and effect relationship"There and then Zakaria prayed to His Sustainer Lord. He said, "My Sustainer Lord! grant me from Your grace a nice beneficial offspring. Indeed You listen the prayer".
Therefore there and then while he stood for prayer in the sanctuary angels informed him, "Indeed Allah gives you good news of truthful Yahya with the word/promise of Allah that he will be from amongst the righteous a distinguished dignitary, and steadfast, and is elevated/chosen .
He said, "How for me could be a son while I have already crossed over late age to extremity of age and moreover my wife is infertile?"
He replied, "The reason of so happening is that Allah does any new/innovative act/executes what He likes .
Zakaria said," My Sustainer Lord! appoint for me some visible mark of cognition"
He told him, "the mark of cognition for you is that you will not be able to talk to people for three days except by signaling.
And you remember Allah excessively and recall Him praising at dusk and dawn".And when the Angels told Maryam ?O Mariam! Be informed that indeed Allah has chosen and elevated you, and have made you "pure", and has selected you from amongst all the women in the world. O Maryam! you stand for your Sustainer Lord, and you prostrate and bow along with those who bow (in congregational prayer/Ass-sa'laat)?
O you the Messenger , these are from the news of the past/facts not in your sight/vision which We are communicating to you.
Since/and you were not present amongst them when they were casting lots by throwing their pens to decide who of them should be the guardian of Maryam; nor earlier were you with them when they were arguing amongst themselves for taking responsibility/guardianship of Maryam.When Angels told this to Maryam,
"O Maryam! indeed Allah gives you the good news of the son named Meseiha, Easa son of Maryam, with this word/promise from Him that
he will be respectable and honorable in this world and the hereafter and he will be amongst the near-ones of Allah;and His word/promise is that he will talk to people in cradle and in the state of old age
and he will be amongst the righteous people;
She said, "O my Sustainer Lord! How for me could be a son when till now no man has touched me?"He told her, "This information of getting child in the untouched state is because, Maryam, Allah creates from nothingness whatever He desires/willed;
when He finalizes/decides about any matter/thing the sequel is that He orders for that to become evident/come into existence and resultantly that thing/matter get physical execution/ appearance/existence".http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/03.%2001--.htm