Zakat and Sadaqat
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In (44), we find that the gift that is given to a woman upon marriage is described as saduqaat. Clearly this is not a charity. It is given as a fulfilment of her right to such a gift. Also we find in (128, when Yusuf?s brothers come to him in a time of need they say ?Give us that which will be a fulfilment of a right that is due to us for Alllah rewards those who cause the fulfilment of a right that is due.? This fits much better in relation to the consistency of the concept than saying ? Treat it as charity to us for Allah rewards the charitable?.
Imraan
Salaam Imran, all
You started well in believing that charity "sadaqaat" is oblgatory, but then found this verse (44) to be not in line with the understanding of charity, but a fulfilment of a right, and then compared it to 1288, to show that a fulfilment of a right falls under charity.
The problem with this comparison is that in 1288 it is really a charity Yusuf was not obliged in trade to give them more than their capital, but they ere asking for charity as well because "hard time has hit us and our family"; in short they were poor.
Coming to verse 44, what is given to "women" for marriage is "ajrwage" and not sadaqa. Women are not mentioned with people who have a right to charity. So, where's the fault?It's in translating "nisaa'" as "women". Women is one meaning. The other is here in this verse4127
"And they ask your legal instruction concerning "nisaa'". Say God instructs you concerning them and what's recited to you n the book concerning- Mothers of fatherless children whom you want to marry and not pay them what is prescribed for them,
- And the oppressed, weak children,
- And the orphans, that you stand firm for their justice...
These three categories can be put under the meaning of nisaa', and they have right to "sadaqa". Then you do not have to stretch yourself to prove the unprovable!
With reference to 960,
is in the nominative case, making it subject of the sentence.
is in the accusative case, making it the object of the only subject in the sentence, which I have pointed out above.
Therefore to my understanding, the order must refer to the sadaqat itself. This does not mean that it does not refer to the distribution. It's just that it refers to the sadqat (subject) directly & by extension to the distribution, which is in the genitive case.
I would welcome someone more learned in the grammatical structure of arabic to comment on this.
As for 9103, I only pointed it out to show that there is an order regarding sadaqat in the quran. I agree that the context is as you have stated above, but as far as I understand it, is an instruction.
Imraan
There is a difference between the grammatical virtual accusative and the real "object". In general, I am not a fan of giving too much weight to grammar when dealing with qur'aan, because qur'aan does not always subject its words to grammar, and because grammar, although can explain what the writer wants to say, but can also be abused to impose a meaning considered by whoever added grammar to the qur'aan.
However, when scanning the word "farida" as used in the qur'aan, we find that it means "a right due to those people mentioned in a given verse", which by extention makes the charity a duty. The inheritance verses, for example, do not speak of charity, yet they speak of a "farida" to the heirs due to them by God order.
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Peace Samia
Thanks for your quick reply to my PM.
Salaam Imran, all
You started well in believing that charity "sadaqaat" is oblgatory, but then found this verse (44) to be not in line with the understanding of charity, but a fulfilment of a right, and then compared it to 1288, to show that a fulfilment of a right falls under charity.
The problem with this comparison is that in 1288 it is really a charity Yusuf was not obliged in trade to give them more than their capital, but they ere asking for charity as well because "hard time has hit us and our family"; in short they were poor.
Coming to verse 44, what is given to "women" for marriage is "ajrwage" and not sadaqa. Women are not mentioned with people who have a right to charity. So, where's the fault?It's in translating "nisaa'" as "women". Women is one meaning. The other is here in this verse4127
"And they ask your legal instruction concerning "nisaa'". Say God instructs you concerning them and what's recited to you n the book concerning- Mothers of fatherless children whom you want to marry and not pay them what is prescribed for them,
- And the oppressed, weak children,
- And the orphans, that you stand firm for their justice...
These three categories can be put under the meaning of nisaa', and they have right to "sadaqa". Then you do not have to stretch yourself to prove the unprovable!
There is a difference between the grammatical virtual accusative and the real "object". In general, I am not a fan of giving too much weight to grammar when dealing with qur'aan, because qur'aan does not always subject its words to grammar, and because grammar, although can explain what the writer wants to say, but can also be abused to impose a meaning considered by whoever added grammar to the qur'aan.
However, when scanning the word "farida" as used in the qur'aan, we find that it means "a right due to those people mentioned in a given verse", which by extention makes the charity a duty. The inheritance verses, for example, do not speak of charity, yet they speak of a "farida" to the heirs due to them by God order.
Am I correct in saying then, that in your opinion, "farida" in 960 would be applied to "sadaqaat"?
I will think about the rest of your post & reply when I have a little more time.
Imraan
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The problem with this comparison is that in 1288 it is really a charity Yusuf was not obliged in trade to give them more than their capital, but they ere asking for charity as well because "hard time has hit us and our family"; in short they were poor.
In last visit their younger brother was retained. This is what has hit them and their family. And they have come to Egypt for this purpose alone in compliance to their father's direction
And Particle Fa shows the reaction/effect, therefore. They have not come for commercial transanction. That is merely as excuse for access. That is why they say little money have we brought and asked equivalent weight for the money and in subtle manner they have asked him to return their brother. And from the answer of the person whom they were considering Aziz/Ruler/Minister/Governor is abundantly clear that they had asked for their brother not "charity of grains".
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Salaam Mazhar
They first told their story that "Misfortune hath touched us and our folk, and we bring but poor merchandise", giving the excuse of bringing bad merchandise for what? Loss of their brother? Is this a logical link?
Then "so (as a result), fill for us the measure and be charitable unto us" because they lost their brother or because their marchendise was not up to the standard?
Actually they wanted him to have mercy on them and are not in a position to blantly ask him for anything other than charity. After he sympathizes with them, only then can they ask for anything.We all know they neither came for charity nor did they come for trade.
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Peace Samia
Thanks for your quick reply to my PM.
Am I correct in saying then, that in your opinion, "farida" in 960 would be applied to "sadaqaat"?
Imraan
You are welcome
In the way I understand the verse, yes, "farida" refers to the due right of these people in sadaqaat.
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peace Samia,
In the way I understand the verse, yes, "farida" refers to the due right of these people in sadaqaat.
So, whilst the people mentioned have a due right in sadaqaat, you cannot conclude based on grammar/logic/anything that 960 is making giving of sadaqat obligatory?
That is what we are trying to clarify.
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Salaam Mazhar
They first told their story that "Misfortune hath touched us and our folk, and we bring but poor merchandise", giving the excuse of bringing bad merchandise for what? Loss of their brother? Is this a logical link?
Then "so (as a result), fill for us the measure and be charitable unto us" because they lost their brother or because their marchendise was not up to the standard?
Actually they wanted him to have mercy on them and are not in a position to blantly ask him for anything other than charity. After he sympathizes with them, only then can they ask for anything.We all know they neither came for charity nor did they come for trade.
Assalamo Alaikum Sister,
There is no such thing in the whole episode which could reflect poverty. The only thing is the shortage/less supply of food grains at that point of time that is why system of rationing has been introduced, one man one camel load, no more sale for men of family not present on the scene/depot of sale. This time 9 men have come but they are making it clear that they have brought little capital therefore asked to give the one camel load in return; indicating to him their real purpose, and some say these words do not mean "you give more grains to us free of price as charity", rather they are asking him to remit their brother. And the response of Yousaf alahissalam confirms this that today you are asking for him but what you did with Yusuf and his brother when you were overpowered by emotions?
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Imran,
you have said "Sadaqaat has at its root the meaning of truth. A careful study of the concept clearly shows that it is the fulfilment of a right that is due".
This connection is found in 6141
6141 He is the One Who initiated gardens; both trellised and untrellised; palm trees, and plants, all with different tastes; and olives and pomegranates, similar and not similar. Eat from its fruit when it blossoms and give its haqq on the day of harvest; and do not waste. He does not like the wasteful.
As far as I know 'haqq' means 'truth', 'right', 'that which is due', etc.
Also what we learn from this verse is that we are indeed to give to charity/share whenever we recieve income/harvest/etc. -
peace Samia,
So, whilst the people mentioned have a due right in sadaqaat, you cannot conclude based on grammar/logic/anything that 960 is making giving of sadaqat obligatory?
That is what we are trying to clarify.
No, grammar has nothing to do with the meaning of the verse.
Obligation can only be implied, that those people have due right in the sadaqaa. If they have right, they have to get it. -
And the response of Yousaf alahissalam confirms this that today you are asking for him but what you did with Yusuf and his brother when you were overpowered by emotions?
The response of Yusuf was He saido you know what you did unto Joseph and his brother in your ignorance?
He wanted to show them he recognized them. There is no "Today you are asking for him".
Their response was They said Is it indeed you who are Yusuf? He said I am Yusuf. and this is my brother.They did not know him before he hinted about Yusuf and his brother.
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Peace,
Isn't 9/60 strictly for believers because of 9/62?
Why the use of 'strictly'?
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The response of Yusuf was He saido you know what you did unto Joseph and his brother in your ignorance?
He wanted to show them he recognized them. There is no "Today you are asking for him".
Their response was They said Is it indeed you who are Yusuf? He said I am Yusuf. and this is my brother.They did not know him before he hinted about Yusuf and his brother.
Sisiter;
He had recognized them on the very first visit. This is the third visit, sent by their father, for the objective to search for Yusaf and retrieving their youngest brother which they lost last time because of their irrational and emotional behaviour when the staff of the warehouse lost their measuring scale.
The word "ignorance" does not fit in since now they have not become Phds. Their mishandling of Yusaf in the hildhood was because of irrational emotionalism of seeking attention and love of their father; nothing else.
We the Ajmi, particularly Iranians and Indian sub continent substitued the Arabic word "jahil" with our own word "jahil" meaning goof, illiterate, unlearned, lacking knowledge and in translations people adopted it over the time as true meaning of Arabic Jahil. In Grand Qur'aan it does not refer to Iranian and Indian perception of their word with one eye "hi". At 24 places of its use in the Qur'aan I find the issue is that of passions, emotions, emotionalism which effect an illiterate and highly literate person equally.
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4916-17
Still doesnt justify your use of 'strictly'. Anyone can give money to charity. If you want, you can keep your views on the mumin vs. muslim issue (that may be true), but dont say that it is 'strictly' for mumins, because it is not.
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Still doesnt justify your use of 'strictly'. Anyone can give money to charity. If you want, you can keep your views on the mumin vs. muslim issue (they may be true), but dont say that it is 'strictly' for mumins, because it is not.
Reading comprehension is not your cup of tea is it?
It is a REQUIREMENT for Mumins i.e. one of their characteristics, we can't force others to give to charity.
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Reading comprehension is not your cup of tea is it?
It is a REQUIREMENT for Mumins i.e. one of their characteristics, we can't force others to give to charity.
I can read perfectly well. You need to be careful in your choice of words and your reading. If you say that it is strictly for mumins only, then that would mean that others are not allowed to give to charity, which, of course, is total nonsense.
Your new word choice above makes more sense.
Do you agree that sadaqat is 'obligatory charity'?
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I can read perfectly well. You need to be careful in your choice of words and your reading. If you say that it is strictly for mumins only, then that would mean that others are not allowed to give to charity, which, of course is total nonsense.
Your new word choice above makes more sense.
Do you agree that sadaqat is 'obligatory charity'?
For believers, yes.
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Peace Wakas
Thanks, I thought so.
So what are we saying here? Is sadaqat something that must be carried out by those who accept the system of deen set out in the quran? Or is it a voluntary act even if you accept the system of deen in the quran?
Imraan
