My question is why must the innocent suffer?
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peace AN,
Please reflect.
I did read the tread you gave, please explain the view once more here, I can not see the deeper point you wish to present, and this would be important, thank you.
why do the innocent suffer without redress,
without redress in this life (in some cases), yes. If redress were to take place in this life, this would require removal of free-choice and logic, violating nature's laws, and thus invalidating this life/test. Making this life meaningless, as we would all be slaves with no choice.
why has Allah established a benefit as the predetermined out come of these abuses?
I assume you mean the perpetrators benefit. If so, answered in the other thread. It is pausing the story half way through then drawing a conclusion, i.e. dictating it on your terms, when your premise includes the existance of God so why not let God dictate the terms.... according to AQ, enter day of requital/due/obligation, where all scores are settled.
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Salaam Wakas,
I can see from the many posts you write on this site you have well estabished views you wish to express, I have no interest in this easily understood idea, that you continue to express, as I wish to understand deeper principles and concepts, it seems this is a question I will have to consider within myself for greater understanding. Thank you for the efforts and thoughts posted.
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Dear Wakas, please try to pay attention what Nur is saying. The whole theory of requital day and the Rubb taking care of all oppression and oppressors is part of whole change in the real Islam. The real Islam was and is meant to establish an equitable just social system. However, current religion Islam not only promotes rituals, as well portrays Rubb as a tyrant, asking to be pleased at all times with these rituals. If unable to please him, he would punish. A very primitive thought process.
Furthermore, the whole concept of requital day is propagated, so that humans/Muslims feel no responsibility to make any consious efforts; in order to establish a just social system. This also has been put as an eventual responsibility to Rubb, who will take care of this too, in Day of Judgment. This is part of same pathetic thought process that plagues whole Muslims at this time.
It is similar to this example, if there is drought or other natural causes of bad crops in fields. The Muslims are told to do "Sabar" and thank Allah in adversity. Instead of being told to acquire knowledge (purpose of creation) as how to harness the Universal forces (Malikas) causing drought or other adverse conditions leading to bad crops.
Badar
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Salam/peace to AN and all.
Some would call it an interesting discussion and some would call it philosophical. It is indeed a thought provoking point, and if I understood it correctly, I see it as follows.
Daily millions of children are born to different societies and different sets of religious beliefs. When they are born, they have a clean slate. They are then indoctrinated into ideologies by parents, society and environment, without these innocents having a choice. We as muslims have failed miserably to shine the light either, as we have also become like any other religion, following a set of ritualistic beliefs system, like all others, and believing in a Super King God who is sitting somewhere, getting pleased and/or upset and punishing in a manner similar to the worldly kings.These innocent children when indoctrinated to follow this blind path, almost have no say. "All that resolve to serve the unity of the human race, stands dejected, fruitless dedication steals all power". I thus fully agree with
" My flaw is profoundly held.
I must surmount this intractable barrier of sentence.
I must consider the insignificant fraction of good,
without considering the balance of the overwhelming bad.
Respect the reflection of virtue,
each holds inside,
against the selfish greed and lust,
of confused ignorance outwardly displayed.
I consider this the hardest requisite of Islam."We, unfortunately, are totally missing the boat and the Godly virtues taught to us by Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed (Peace be upon them all) are redirected to a direction suiting only the elite, forgetting the general good of humanity. We are again into "practicing religions" while the fight of all the above was against these religious beliefs and to rid the humanity of a tyrant God who is convenientlly represented here by the powerful at all levels.
Can it be done, as it has been done before? The journey is not easy. There will be crossing the red sea like Moses, suffering the torture of migration and hiding for years in valley like Mohammed, fighting the Cross designed to take the life of Jesus, swimming to safety from the attack of fish and making another Ark. Do we have the courage, to invite people to this Ark. We have the Ark, in the form of Qur'Aan, which is the same message given through all the above. Unless we dismiss everything we believe in, and go once again, letter by letter to this source, we will continue to drown, and keep subjecting the innocent behind us to drown also. If this reunderstanding the true message makes us loose everything we have been believing in, it is still worth it.
I will quote again
"I must surmount this intractable barrier of sentence.
I must consider the insignificant fraction of good,
without considering the balance of the overwhelming bad."This is the only way out. We reap what we sow. I have seen your effort on your site to understand the Real message letter by letter, by relooking at each letter and word used in the Book, and thus an attempt to see how we can correct our direction. I dont think that it needs a rocket scince to figure that we have been doing things wrong. We are however bend upon believing that everything we believe is correct, even though we are going no where. This is true with most every belief system. Wish more and more people would join hands and try to get to the message and end the futile struggle in the wrong dirction, that most of us are heading into.
Peace to all
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Salaam Kn,
thank you for your thoughtful post, you and Brother Badar have restored my hopes of finding deeper knowledge within the thoughts of those in search of the truth, thank you, you should become a member of servant of the light, your input would be welcome.
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We suffer because of our actions, or because of our inaction. We fear what we should not fear. We suffer because of our ignorance and vice. We suffer because devils live among us. We suffer because of oppression. We suffer because we are weak. We suffer becauce of rascism,sexism,nationalism etc., you get my point.
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Salam/peace to AN and all.
Some would call it an interesting discussion and some would call it philosophical. It is indeed a thought provoking point, and if I understood it correctly, I see it as follows.
Daily millions of children are born to different societies and different sets of religious beliefs. When they are born, they have a clean slate. They are then indoctrinated into ideologies by parents, society and environment, without these innocents having a choice. We as muslims have failed miserably to shine the light either, as we have also become like any other religion, following a set of ritualistic beliefs system, like all others, and believing in a Super King God who is sitting somewhere, getting pleased and/or upset and punishing in a manner similar to the worldly kings.These innocent children when indoctrinated to follow this blind path..
Children are brought up in an adult discourse world, inevitably they will be indoctrinate due so social norms of the time, be it from family, religion/no religion or whatever.
innocence is rubbish talk. A child is born with little knowledge and they learn through their environment, a lot of their doings are based on their self and ignorance.
Why is a child innocent but an adult not? why do people grow out of innocence?
even if you intend to bring up a child of 'innocence' in a perfect environment it's non existent. the tv you watch, the people you see, the life you live, the country you're in it all has influences and discourses. Some of which you have no power to change.
there is no way of saying ok i'll bring you up with no nothing, and then you'll be totally free and 'innocent'. it's just impossible.
The only problem is causing serious harm to a child (even an adult) that's the problem. no one should suffer.
BTW in relation to Badrs post, do you not think you need patience to deal with issues? that's not to say you don't sit and twiddle your thumbs! being proactive is important sometimes you need to be patient. and if we go by the logic oh just have sabr, well why don't we just sit down and do nothing and have sabr for a miracle to happen so someone can feed us. that's nonsense. people are not that stupid.
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Are you sure about this?
rotfl yeah thats a good question. group
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Children are brought up in an adult discourse world, inevitably they will be indoctrinate due so social norms of the time, be it from family, religion/no religion or whatever.
innocence is rubbish talk. A child is born with little knowledge and they learn through their environment, a lot of their doings are based on their self and ignorance.
Why is a child innocent but an adult not? why do people grow out of innocence?
even if you intend to bring up a child of 'innocence' in a perfect environment it's non existent. the tv you watch, the people you see, the life you live, the country you're in it all has influences and discourses. Some of which you have no power to change.
there is no way of saying ok i'll bring you up with no nothing, and then you'll be totally free and 'innocent'. it's just impossible.
I fully understand what you are saying. An adult is a grown up child, and hence he then assumes the responsibility. However, the question is wether we can break this cycle.The innocent by the way are not only the children with a clean slate, but even a large number of adults, who have been directed into the path leading to no where. The responsibility on those who can see the light perhaps increases many fold, as long as they can focus this light properly. With due respect, I will repeat part of my posting again, just to highlight the issue.
"Can it be done, as it has been done before? The journey is not easy. There will be crossing the red sea like Moses, suffering the torture of migration and hiding for years in valley like Mohammed, fighting the Cross designed to take the life of Jesus, swimming to safety from the attack of fish and making another Ark. Do we have the courage, to invite people to this Ark. We have the Ark, in the form of Qur'Aan, which is the same message given through all the above. Unless we dismiss everything we believe in, and go once again, letter by letter to this source, we will continue to drown, and keep subjecting the innocent behind us to drown also. If this reunderstanding the true message makes us loose everything we have been believing in, it is still worth it.
I will quote again
"I must surmount this intractable barrier of sentence.
I must consider the insignificant fraction of good,
without considering the balance of the overwhelming bad."This is the only way out. We reap what we sow. We need to understand the Real message letter by letter, by relooking at each letter and word used in the Book, and thus an attempt to see how we can correct our direction. I dont think that it needs a rocket scince to figure that we have been doing things wrong. We are however bend upon believing that everything we believe is correct, even though we are going no where. This is true with most every belief system. Wish more and more people would join hands and try to get to the message and end the futile struggle in the wrong dirction, that most of us are heading into."
Giving up is just too easy an excuse, but full of bad outcomes.
Peace to all -
I feel the topic is skewing to a different direction..
why must the innocent suffer?
I can say a child brought up with much wealth in such a loving environment though is subjugated to adult authority of what he or she can and cannot do is a form of suffering.
?suffering? isn?t a black and white image.
I fully understand what you are saying. An adult is a grown up child, and hence he then assumes the responsibility. However, the question is wether we can break this cycle.The innocent by the way are not only the children with a clean slate, but even a large number of adults, who have been directed into the path leading to no where. The responsibility on those who can see the light perhaps increases many fold, as long as they can focus this light properly. With due respect, I will repeat part of my posting again, just to highlight the issue.
What cycle do you want to break? The responsibility? The innocence? You confused me please clarify.
?Innocence? is not about a path directed to nowhere. Even so called not innocent people/children who have a wealth of knowledge and opportunity can easily take a path directed to nowhere.
Lots of people ?think? they see the light and they will inflict their bias upon those who don?t know or to others who have their own opinions.
I think you?re a dreamer, how do you expect suffering to stop through migration, possibly you could control those who come with you to a certain extent but really you have no control of other people?s actions and only you are responsible for your deeds. If you were just giving an analogy with the idea that the ark/migration is the Quran. People are following it. None of us are perfect, and when we work on ourselves we can make a difference.It?s not rocket science but once you open something and read it, Tom, Dick and Harry will come up with different outlooks. It?s great people are out there trying to support ?innocent? children through their knowledge of ?light? though none of us are supreme.
Are you sure about this?
100%
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Salaam Sarah,
You have expressed a point of not only children but adults being innocent, but this is an A-symmetrical system, you believe a child is as culpable as an adult?
The question of suffering of humanity, is a different question to the suffering of the truly innocent, we are given a choice, we can establish Jannah, which means a fertile place of abundant growth, within the society we strive towards, or we can establish Jahannam, a constrictive place of stagnation.
In the world today we live in a constrictive environment, where ignorance is the standard human attainment, suffering is widespread throughout the world, this is due to the wrong beliefs being predominant within the minds of the adult population, these beliefs not only contaminate the children?s thoughts, from the abuses, which scars and injures the thoughts of the innocent, but ultimately transforming them in copies of themselves.
What is the driving force of this constrictive environment?
You could blame the sovereigns, their greed and lusts dominate the human condition, however this would be wrong, you can not blame the tool, you must blame the workman using the tool, when the result is wrong.
The answer of the suffering of the adults is subjugation, and the greater problem of, those in subjugation, then forcibly subjugating those around them, this is based on fear. I wrote a poem on this to help you understand.
Worship all you fear.
Dissolute dominations nightmare festers.
on the hostage coloured soul,
strangled to enslavement,
draining to a craven hollow.Distorted,
gathering kindred with whispered awe of sovereigns worship,
utter in righteous confidence,
its outcome fatal,
a contagious poison.Mimicry and fascination is the eulogy of the worshiped,
so fear your reward,
its bounty burdens every moment,
always too frightened to refuse.The cold metal of subjugation sears the flesh,
so oppressed,
their badgered scars putrefy.The shepherds of belief cowering in fear,
are inculcate truths,
reality free.A mind questioning fear will free compassion from the bankers vault,
who?s crushing usurious chains paralyse reasons grasp.A mind blinking in the light of freedom,
has shed its chains of fear,
freed to build protection under evolving reasons armour.So care without constraint,
reflect each act of love,
initiate of yourself without reward,
upon its reflection bestow munificence,
and have no fear.Hold firmly to all truth and cast away all fear.
As an adult it is possible for you, even if you were killed for it, to face your abuser without fear in the knowledge of what is taking place, and where is could lead, a child can not, and this is the difference.
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I think you might have misunderstood me, childhood innocence is a construction that adults make; it doesn?t exist.
Culpability has nothing to do with innocence. To answer your question, yes though i?d say you have a wrong choice of words. Let me give you an example Child A wants the toy that child B has, Child A hits child B intentionally and snatches the toy. You can argue the child doesn?t know better, but one can argue the child has been taught hitting is wrong and unacceptable. The child is responsible for their actions.
Off course you have adopted the discourse that children are innocent (based on my interpretation) and aren?t culpable because they are simply children with no voice, with no power with nothing other than adult dominance and fear. Dunno where you live though children have a voice. Yes adults can obstruct their rights but they can also impede on other adults rights. Suffering isn?t only limited to children.
Suffering of humanity is not less significant than the suffering of children. Children are part of humanity all humans with souls shouldn?t suffer, even the ones without souls! I could argue that a person with an additional need (special need) is much more in need than the so called innocent child. Depending on the severity they may never ever have a voice, they may never be able to physically retaliate, they are locked up within themselves within society. Don?t let ?innocence? of children make you overlook others.
IF you so believe children are more important and the importance of them not suffering is far greater than any other being, prove it.
All of us were children and we all grew up. These children that come to life are brought up in an adult world of discourse; if you can?t change adults thinking don?t expect miracles on children. The environment will always be constrictive. I think you might like to watch a documentary on this, geography impacts.
Guns, Germs, and Steel The Fates of Human Societies by Jarod DiamondRemember you're dealing with centuries of contstructions, miracles don't happen over night.
You can?t expect a world with total harmony of no bias, it?s nonexistent. How would you like it or expect it to be in your ideal world of realism. Because you?re talking realistic right, not some fairy tale?
These children grow up to be adults (some don?t) though you?d think if they really believed in their sufferings they would be an activist to aim for a better life?
You have some interesting thoughts though i don?t entirely agree with you.
Children as much as adults suffer, no one deserves to suffer.
We?re not superhuman to save the world but we can do our share, 1 person makes a difference.
As an adult it is possible for you, even if you were killed for it, to face your abuser without fear in the knowledge of what is taking place, and where is could lead, a child can not, and this is the difference.
I disagree, Fear exists in adults also.
Salam
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Salaam Sarah,
You seem to have misunderstood me, I am not talking of the fear of the children, I'm saying the fear of the adults is imprinted upon the children.
When a child hits another and steals the toy, this is learned behaviour, it maybe from other sources, other than the parents directly, but they begin as a blank sheet of paper.
Who then is culpable, you say it has nothing to do with innocence, this makes little sense, they are intrinsically linked, however blame is not the relevant aspect under discussion.
Suffering of humanity is not less than the suffering of children, a callous statement, this being your perspective, under the logic you wish to present, could you explain the examples I sighted earlier.
These situation exist for some children within the world today
A child forced to work as a prostitute at the age of 4, under your logic is culpable?
A child beaten and tortured to death at 2, culpable?
A child starving alone, abandoned, culpable?
A child trained to kill, and committing murders, culpable?
You state a child is responsible for their actions, a bold statement, please explain in detail how this is the case?
Why are children so important, you ask.
As I have been explaining, if you start with a clean sheep of paper, the child, adults indoctrinate, subjugate, confuse and instil fear within the pure soul of the child.
Making ultimately a copy of themselves, this is known as a cycle of abuse, of course you say the children do it themselves, but I?m not convinced.
This means adults are the problem, children are the solution, if you break the cycle of abuse, the adults would also escape the misery they impart.
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Fear of adults is imprinted upon children to a certain degree they call that social referencing. Though not entirely some children have totally irrational fears not linked with adults.
No actually children can hit without learning in the way i think you?re describing, it could be purely experimentation. Each child reacts differently.
The one who is culpable depends on the laws. A child hitting another is still responsible for hitting. That doesn?t mean the child gets the blame.
What is responsibility and why do we have it? You see you identifying innocence with children indicates when they get older they are not, so in that case adults are evil.
So you think because i say humans suffer (adults included), i?m heartless because i don?t segregate children within their own real of suffering and give them ?special attention? in the way your concept are.
That?s judgmental.A child is not culpable of other people?s actions. You think adults aren?t forced into doing things?
A child acts within their means of understanding be it limited or great. don?t think of it as adult like responsibilities. Their self awareness is much different than how adults perceive things. I gave you an example child hitting another child, they are responsible, a child ripping a book they are responsible. A child refusing to eat.
A child can say no to things, being forced into things is a form of oppression that even adults have and go through. i don?t believe that is right. It is a sad state what people go through. Some people choose to follow such things because that?s their method of survival again it doesn?t mean it is right.
Like i said earlier, anything that causes harm isn?t acceptable all those things you mention cause harm.
A child will never be a clean sheet of paper the min they are born into the world. Even in a perfect world.
A child grows into an adult provided they live, so how do they make a copy of the adults if by then they have the free will to be as they wish? And recognise injustice, possibly they recognise injustice when they are much younger. Definitely they do.
Maybe you should consider being a member of unicef http//www.unicef.org/
if you can't support adults away from harm who are suffering, how do you expect children who are under the guidance of these adults to be free from oppression.
Salam
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Salaam Sarah,
I can see you have a single view and can not express anything beyond it, I asked you specific question, which you ignored, you may believe children are guilt, and complicit with the abusers, but I would disagree, I have explained my view on both children and adults, I have defined my parameters, which you disregard, this then becomes a one sided debate, so I'll leave you to your views in peace.
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i disagree
i believe your views are single, i am simply showing you different perspective though you choose not to accept it. that's your choice.
i didn't ignore your question, you just refused to accept my answer.
in terms of abusers, the one receiving such abuse is the oppressed one, your focus is on children you just brushed on adults.
no one deserves suffering, why people suffer is because of a number of reasons. on your own you have no ability to prevent or provide solutions for all causes simply because you cannot control others actions.
Would be nice to live in a world of happiness free from suffering though humans are weak and such things are far fetched.
Salam.
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Salaam Sarah,
I get the idea I have annoyed you, don't take it to heart.
I don't wish to alter the world, as this is not in my power, so would be futile, and I have never mentioned this, I wish to understand the system, both human and the greater creations systems, as far as I am able.
Suffering is objective in the eyes of a child, they suffer and can not understand why, to an adult suffering is subjective, this is the difference you refuse to consider, but you will never do so, that is evident.
My other point you also refuse to understand is if you change the adults behaviour towards the child, the child will become a different adult, if that new adult changes their behaviour towards the next generation of children, they would develop into a slightly better version of an adult, and so forth.
But the real question still remains how can the damaged be reconciled to the benefit?
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Curious, did you study child psychology or adult psychology?
I think many people undermine the child. For some children it could be objective for some subjective.
Off course adult behaviour to a child will change the child, i don?t see how you explained that before. anything in the environment from physical aspects or human resources will affect the child. I mentioned earlier
Children are brought up in an adult discourse world, inevitably they will be indoctrinate due so social norms of the time, be it from family, religion/no religion or whatever.
When they become adults they would make their own choices.
I didn?t understand your last question.
No hard feelings.
Salam.
