The difference between us and sunnis/shias
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The night starts at sunset (according the quran/reading). See 2187, 3637 and 395.
Peace,
Respectfully.yes, i know.
The night starts at sunset but in The Quran, 2187, we are told to fast until the night and not until the beginning of the night. The day needs plenty of time to close as well as to open, would you agree?Peace.
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it's still night, who's to say to start at full night or beginning...
it's still night at sunset... just some leftover daylight in the wayPeace,
Respectfully.Leftover of the daylight? See, that's why i can't break the fast at sunset, because of the leftovers.
What do you think?Peace.
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I like that. You see, i think it's just people letting off steam. Sunnis even shias have a strong community, people find comfort in communities... they represent muslims all around the world. people don't feel comfortable with that, i think that is part of the issue.
nope That is not the issue
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Peace,
I still don't understand where the distinction is coming in. Sunnis (and other sectarian Muslims) follow their understanding of the Qur'aan, whether they reason on it themselves or get their interpretation from scholars and Islaamic scribes. The Qur'aan says there are 5 fundamental beliefs that are stressed in Islaam, and the system is based on these beliefs. These are belief in (1) Allah, (2) the angels, (3) the prophets, (4) the scriptures, and (5) the hereafter. Regardless of how you condemn them as blind followers and hypocrites, Sunni Muslims believe in ALL of these things, and so do Salafis, Shias, Hanafis, Ahmadis, Qadianis, Sufis, and every other sect of Islaam, INCLUDING "QUR'AAN ALONE" MUSLIMS... So, what's the dispute?
Say, "O people of the Book, come to an agreement between us and you, that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall take no partners with Him, and none of us shall take others for Lords beside Allah." And if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are those who have surrendered." (Qur'aan 364)
Why is everybody so judgemental of Sunnis? Isn't Allah the best judge?
Peace,
Ahmad
I condemn no one. I am just an ardent believer in Islamic Reform. Though taqlid(Blind following) is condemnable.
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Thank you for all who posted; there was some interesting insight-as always.
I wholeheartedly believe that there are critical thinking sunnis out there who interpret religion for themselves. In fact, I knew many who did just that. Unfortunately, the Muslim community I reside in now, is VERY conservative. Many who reside there do not interpret religion-they let Ibn Khathir do it for them.
I, however, am not a fan of following some random Imam that existed 200 years ago. He has a different understanding of society and science than I do. There are so many insights, scientific advances, historical evidences that have been acquired over the past 1200 years that it would be insanity to follow what Ibn Khathir, Bukhari, Muslim, believe down to the dotted letter. Ibn Khathir did not have the knowledge and insights we do today.
At this new masjid that I now attend, there is a American Christian who is visiting us daily. Surprisingly, he, upon studying Islam on his own, has come to the conclusion that hadith is a gray zone-there are some hadith that contradict the Quran! -that the Quran does not specifically ask us to follow hadith. He basically concluded that Hadith/sunni is a fabricated book that Muslims have adopted!
This has thrown everyone in my masjid for a loop.
The last thing that happened today was that someone had posted an article about Islam and dating on the news board. One brother asked me to read it, as we had time between prayers. Basically, the article concluded that dating was haram (obviously through big jumps in logic-it was fallacious). Just because I questioned the norm, people started jokingly saying that I had a girlfriend or I wanted one. I quickly rebuked them claiming, that the quran only condemns sexual activity before marriage, and that reserved dating does not lead to this. In case they haven't been noticing, many religions prohibit sex before marriage, and their youth adhere to this rule (LDS Church, for example).
Even if you want to go to the extreme and not physically touch the person, at all, it is still possible to get to know them and see if they are right for you.
Even if the non-critical thinking people deny this-they will do some form of "dating" before the marry the person-say even their father/mother selects for them.
But don't get me started on child marriage or forced marriage. yeah
Anyway, these are just my experiences- I moved from liberal masjid USA to conservative masjid USA. It is tough, and I am basically using this forum to vent.
The forum is a major help, but I wished we all had access to a physical critical thinking congregation... -
Salam Yaqub,
You are correct in your statements, though dating secretly "one-on-one" is frowned upon in the Quran and only should be done with a good reason
2235 And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to the women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows
that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not
consummate the marriage until the book interim is reached. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him,
and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate. -
Salam Yaqub,
You are correct in your statements, though dating secretly "one-on-one" is frowned upon in the Quran and only should be done with a good reason
2235 And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to the women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows
that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not
consummate the marriage until the book interim is reached. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him,
and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.Peace Layth
Could you possibly explain what is ment by 'And do not consummate the marriage until the book interim is reached.'?
On another note, I recently was speaking to a sunni and he asked me about my marriage. I did not do a religious ceremony you see, so his reply was that I was not married in the eye of God and that I was committing a sin. He also said my children were considered a ba*****. He advised me to go and sort it out soon. What do you say to this or anyone else for this matter? Is it the case my legal marriage done in the registry office in front of witnesses null and void according to the Quran teachings or Islam etc...
Peace
Hope
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Salam,
Could you possibly explain what is ment by 'And do not consummate the marriage until the book interim is reached.'?
The "book interim"is the period that is required to wait for these women before they can get married (which is 4 months plus 10 days according to 2234). The "book" here referring to the marriage contract that they had entered into (2433)
On another note, I recently was speaking to a sunni and he asked me about my marriage. I did not do a religious ceremony you see, so his reply was that I was not married in the eye of God and that I was committing a sin. He also said my children were considered a ba*****. He advised me to go and sort it out soon. What do you say to this or anyone else for this matter? Is it the case my legal marriage done in the registry office in front of witnesses null and void according to the Quran teachings or Islam etc...
Here are the requirements for a valid marriage
- That the marriage is between a male and a female (26165-166)
- The male and female do not belong to the restricted groups (422-24)
- That the male and female requesting marriage are single (2433)
- The male and female have parental consent if minors (425)
-The male and female are of sound mind and not under duress (243) - A dowry has been agreed upon and paid (55)
- The man and woman are made aware of their obligations (434)
- The marriage is recorded (2433)
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Salam,
The "book interim"is the period that is required to wait for these women before they can get married (which is 4 months plus 10 days according to 2234). The "book" here referring to the marriage contract that they had entered into (2433)
Here are the requirements for a valid marriage
- That the marriage is between a male and a female (26165-166)
- The male and female do not belong to the restricted groups (422-24)
- That the male and female requesting marriage are single (2433)
- The male and female have parental consent if minors (425)
-The male and female are of sound mind and not under duress (243) - A dowry has been agreed upon and paid (55)
- The man and woman are made aware of their obligations (434)
- The marriage is recorded (2433)
Selam Layth
I believe I have met all these requirements through a civil marriage. Possibly the only problem I can see is that I have not paid a dowry. Arguably I believe the dowry to be some sort of security for the women getting married i.e. in case of a divorce they have some financial security to fall back on. Here in the UK if your divorce the women gets to keep half the house, dog, cat and if they have kids a whole lot more. Also people today have life insurance to make sure in the event of the death of the husband the wife will still have some financial security. Am I correct to think this, that women through marriage now ?a-days have their financial security met through laws and thus do not require a dowry? Can we conclude this or does the dowry have a different purpose?
I know from Turkish culture that the dowry went to the father who negotiated a price like he was selling a donkey!
Peace
Hope
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Salam Yaqub,
You are correct in your statements, though dating secretly "one-on-one" is frowned upon in the Quran and only should be done with a good reason
2235 And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to the women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows
that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not
consummate the marriage until the book interim is reached. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him,
and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.Than you for that point Layth, I will keep it in mind when/if I start dating.
Peace Layth
Could you possibly explain what is ment by 'And do not consummate the marriage until the book interim is reached.'?
On another note, I recently was speaking to a sunni and he asked me about my marriage. I did not do a religious ceremony you see, so his reply was that I was not married in the eye of God and that I was committing a sin. He also said my children were considered a ba*****. He advised me to go and sort it out soon. What do you say to this or anyone else for this matter? Is it the case my legal marriage done in the registry office in front of witnesses null and void according to the Quran teachings or Islam etc...
Peace
Hope
That is very funny Hope. In all common sense, I do not think your children are illegitimate.
Peace,
YaqubJoke Hey Salim, we "moderates" have a joke that we don't like to put women in black sacks. Salim Ooh?. Other brother and I start laughing out loud.
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At this new masjid that I now attend, there is a American Christian who is visiting us daily. Surprisingly, he, upon studying Islam on his own, has come to the conclusion that hadith is a gray zone-there are some hadith that contradict the Quran! -that the Quran does not specifically ask us to follow hadith. He basically concluded that Hadith/sunni is a fabricated book that Muslims have adopted!
This has thrown everyone in my masjid for a loop.
Anyway, these are just my experiences- I moved from liberal masjid USA to conservative masjid USA. It is tough, and I am basically using this forum to vent.
The forum is a major help, but I wished we all had access to a physical critical thinking congregation...I think that having a Christian question the hadiths as opposed to a Muslim, it would actually make traditional Muslims think a bit ... otherwise they could just call the Muslims who are questioning 'kafirs'.
I wish we all had access to a physical congregation where people were like-minded too.
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Selam Layth
I believe I have met all these requirements through a civil marriage. Possibly the only problem I can see is that I have not paid a dowry. Arguably I believe the dowry to be some sort of security for the women getting married i.e. in case of a divorce they have some financial security to fall back on. Here in the UK if your divorce the women gets to keep half the house, dog, cat and if they have kids a whole lot more. Also people today have life insurance to make sure in the event of the death of the husband the wife will still have some financial security. Am I correct to think this, that women through marriage now ?a-days have their financial security met through laws and thus do not require a dowry? Can we conclude this or does the dowry have a different purpose?
I know from Turkish culture that the dowry went to the father who negotiated a price like he was selling a donkey!
Peace
Hope
Selam Hope,
yeah I never got a dowry myself. When I asked my husband about it recently, he said they don't do that anymore, and normally my father would've received the money.
I'm wondering about the dowry too. -
I?d really like to know more about imam shafi and his role on hadith. know of any books/ site i could read?
I think part of the problem is people not knowing history. People will always blind follow because it?s easy and it is accepted. I think if you can get people to read history it might get them thinking because they?re too scared to read their own book of belief as they might misinterpret it so history might help i think. Though you can lead a horse to water but you can?t make it drink.
Salaam.
You can try 'Hadith as Scripture Discussions on the Authority of Prophetic Traditions in Islam' by Aisha Musa.I have to agree, it's easy to just listen to what others say and follow them. Especially if you've been taught since you're little not to question, or that it's a sin to do so.
I know what you mean about leading a horse to water. I could buy all the books in the world in the hopes that my husband would read them (or even a different translation of the Qur'an), but I can't make him. He'll just say "such and such imam said this so I'm going to follow him". (
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After about a year of contemplating, I have come to the conclusion that the different between us and shias/sunnis is that we believe in the freedom of interpreting religion, while they don't.
In a discussion today my friend were discussing random topics in Islam. He claimed that hadith are infallible, the prophet was infallible, the imams that interpret hadith are infallible (because hadith are so clear and elaborating that there are no two sides), ect.
This discussion basically epitomized my experiences with devout sunni/shiias
I just stood there with my mouth open (allegorically).
Any thoughts?
Peace everyone,
There is no significant difference between Sunnis/Shiites and Quran Aloners. Even so-called Quran Aloners(Quranists) can be termed sectarian since they are also divided as Rashadites(those belonging to submitters international), 19ers(those belonging to Edip & Co), Free-Minders(those belonging to this forum),... In reality, every group is a cult and nurtures cultist attitude.
The main difference is as under
Sunnis/Shiites Quran, Prophet, Hadiths, Imams are infallible
Quran Aloners Quran is infallible(which is not the case).
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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The imam said so means that they are following the blind following of their scholars which is forbidden is Islam. Is Quran not an open book for everyone to read? If you follow Ijtihad then the answer is yes if you follow taqlid the answer is no. The issue here is when sunnism started out they believed in Ijtihad(independent reasoning) and condemned taqlid(Blind following) in all its forms. After Imam shafi and his hadith movement came on the scene and battle between the mutazilites and the asharites and the sacking of Baghdad all this changed and Ijtihad lost its prestige and was grounded in favor of taqlid. There was a fight between the proponents of Ijtihad and the proponents of Taqlid but unfortunately Imam Shafi and Imam Ghazali were the winner that day. Notwithstanding the fact that taqlid was a system of the shias the sunnis today follow it religiously and condemn anyone who dares to commit Ijtihad. This is the root of all evil in Islam or sunnism today. The following of taqlid that is. May the curse of God be upon those who follow taqlid. The blind following of hadith and the blind following of the scholars or their fatwas without any regard to the Quran is all due to taqlid. It is due to taqlid that the sunnis remain committed to their past scholars and glorify them and do not ponder over the Quran. Think about this for a minute. If whatever is in the Quran has already been explained by the previous interpreters than who needs the Quran and there is no need for new interpretations based on Quran as all has been explained already. Truly human stupidity knows no limits. Sunnism today is the corrupted form of the original sunnism which was based on ijtihad and condemned taqlid in all its forms. Taqlid was and remains the domain of the shias who love to follow their divine imams.
In addition to that the hadith are simply fabrications. Muhammad could not have possible disobeyed God and still be given revelations from God. God makes this clear in the Quran. Muhammad could not have stoned adulterers, screwed a girl who according to hadith (satanic) scripture was IMMATURE (the sunni's believe "if they don't menstruate" in the Quran proves you can sodomize little girls rotfl but then again there are GROWN WOMEN who don't mentruate, so this is an example among an infinite many of sunni ignorance) and do a bunch of other stupid crap like WOOO LET'S KILL THE BLACK DOGS!
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Selam Hope,
yeah I never got a dowry myself. When I asked my husband about it recently, he said they don't do that anymore, and normally my father would've received the money.
I'm wondering about the dowry too.Selam aynur
In Turkey a dowry is called ba$lik parasi. I think it was ban by the goverment because it was considered backward and people use to practically sell their daughters to the highest bidder.
What I would like to know as well is that the dowry obviously must have served a purpose in them days and probably in some countries these days. What was it? Does anymore have a theory?
Peace
Hope
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Yesterday, I had some day!
I went to an honors discussion seminar at my university (I am a student), and met a Feminist-Arab professor. She was very liberal, and was the first "reformist" muslim I had ever met in my life. Though her work mainly concerns feminism in Arab society, she, of course, has to do some Quranic research. Currently, she is analyzing all of the verses that refer to the veil or modesty among men in women in the Quran-quite fascinating!
After I came back home, I was talking to my Saudi room mate about the differences among our views of religion. Like I have already concluded you either believe the world is black and white, or that there are some areas that are gray (you believe either in interpretation in religion or you don't). Anyway throughout the discussion, I found out that he does NOT believe in evolution. Whatever he learned about it, was rhetoric against it. That leaves me to think how backward Saudi institutions are in biology! If you don't believe in evolution... do you still take flu shots? how do you do taxonomy? where did MRSA come from? what about stem cell research? embryology?
brickwall In one evening I went from highly liberal to highly conservative. This is an intellectual roller coaster ride!
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don't leave your judgement on just one aspect.
i'm sure there are others who don't believe in evolution. i don't know much about it but i can't fathom the logic that i was an ape. but in other terms of evolution sure it exists, humans evolve not 1 of us are the same.,,
but anyway nice that you met someone who shares similar views as yourself.
