At what time we should break the fast?
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Hello all
This issue when to break fast and when salaat time is perhaps the most important issue for us coming from Scandinavia. We have a constant struggle against the time.....The summer is constant light and winter is constant darkness. Depending on when Ramadan starts in a particular year we either have heaven or hell (don't take the heaven or hell literally). This year for example we have it ok, fasting starts 0430 and ends 2130. Not too bad yeah
And I live in the south! Think how it is for those poor buggers in the north. Don't know if you know, but if you travel west from Stockholm (which is in the south of Sweden) and keep following the same latitude you will finally end up in......Alaska.
The normal consencus is that if the sun does not set or rise we are to follow the nearest muslim country's sunset/rise.
To me, that sounds like a lot of BS to be honest with you.....The Quran is complete, all the answers you can find there. I don't think for a second that when Allah almighty sent down the message of Ramadan/praying he "forgot" us scandihooligans or that it is actually true that we are to suffer (yes, pardon me for saying so, but fasting sometimes 20hrs/day for thirty days will zombify you) and in another year not being able to feel the effect of fasting because if you blink more than twice you missed that day.....
Due to the circumstances above, I think we are on the wrong interpretation path if we are to consider the sun as the clock of fasting/Ramadan. There must something we missed.
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guest, salam.
Peace siki,
And how do you determine the so called ?first light? and the ?last light?? Your definition is very subjective. It creates a chaotic system. And that is in direct contradiction to Allah?s system which is perfect and coherent and unites the believers. Simply put, your system divides the believers!
2-187 ----You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn---
This is first light, you can determine the last last with the same reference.
And also ponder over , why didn't he choose the sun rise to begin fasting.
Please justify your statement ?Quranic layal does not start at Ghorubul shams? by showing us the Quranic verse that says Ghorobul shams is NOT part of a night.
I have already posted clear proof in the shape of 15-65 and 6-76, that Ghoroubul shams is not the start of quranic layal , if you do not choose to ponder over what they are conveying, i can do no more.
Now how about you doing some work by showing us that quranic layal starts at Ghorobul shams, and why didnt God use the term/marker Gohorubul shams for ending fast instead of using the word layal?
And to remind , "you must re-evaluate your posts before hitting the post button ", we are all here to learn and give honest opinions , i don't know about you, but let me assure you that i have not been paid by Jews to misguide the believers here. If something is beyond your intellectual comprehension, it does not mean that the individual is working on an agenda.
peace
siki
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Hello all
This issue when to break fast and when salaat time is perhaps the most important issue for us coming from Scandinavia. We have a constant struggle against the time.....The summer is constant light and winter is constant darkness. Depending on when Ramadan starts in a particular year we either have heaven or hell (don't take the heaven or hell literally). This year for example we have it ok, fasting starts 0430 and ends 2130. Not too bad yeah
And I live in the south! Think how it is for those poor buggers in the north. Don't know if you know, but if you travel west from Stockholm (which is in the south of Sweden) and keep following the same latitude you will finally end up in......Alaska.
The normal consencus is that if the sun does not set or rise we are to follow the nearest muslim country's sunset/rise.
To me, that sounds like a lot of BS to be honest with you.....The Quran is complete, all the answers you can find there. I don't think for a second that when Allah almighty sent down the message of Ramadan/praying he "forgot" us scandihooligans or that it is actually true that we are to suffer (yes, pardon me for saying so, but fasting sometimes 20hrs/day for thirty days will zombify you) and in another year not being able to feel the effect of fasting because if you blink more than twice you missed that day.....
Due to the circumstances above, I think we are on the wrong interpretation path if we are to consider the sun as the clock of fasting/Ramadan. There must something we missed.
you have come up with very valid points, i have been thinking about these too, and have been wanting to discuss, but unfortunately we are still stuck with layal and gohorubul shams issue and have not been able to progress forward.
Ok, you and me , lets discuss this,
In a situation like yours , can we solve this by "calculating the period from first light to last light on longest days (end june approx) on equator", and fast for that particular period/hours starting from a time earlier in the morning ending what ever it is to be?
siki
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I'm not sure, I have not studied if this phenomenon (i.e. shahr ramadan ~ scorching full-moon) happens everywhere on the planet. Perhaps Bro Ayman will know, as he has studied this subject, e.g.
http//www.free-minds.org/timingI think issue here is not of orange moon (shahr ur ramadhan) but of, very long and undefined markers for starting and breaking fast, for which i have suggested a solution.
I mean the morning twilight and evening dusk are very long, and hence not very distinct, whereas they are short and crisp on equator
siki
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you have come up with very valid points, i have been thinking about these too, and have been wanting to discuss, but unfortunately we are still stuck with layal and gohorubul shams issue and have not been able to progress forward.
Ok, you and me , lets discuss this,
In a situation like yours , can we solve this by "calculating the period from first light to last light on longest days (end june approx) on equator", and fast for that particular period/hours starting from a time earlier in the morning ending what ever it is to be?
siki
Dear Siki
By doing like your proposal above is totally ok, it would bring an ordnance into our life, and from a biological/physical view it would be the most logical, but how will you prove that it is ok doing this by using the Quran? I don't know.
Something is bugging me....Islam is worldwide, it is for every nation and every human, regardless of culture and background. If this is true the "rules" and "rituals" must be highly flexible and adoptable in every sense. I read somewhere in a thread here on FM where somebody made a good point that the traditional "how to do" with women's clothing is totally irrelevant to an eskimo, they certainly do not need to be told to "lengthen your garment". Instead, they the eskimos must understand that verse from an eskimo point of view which will probably very different how a scholar in Mecca would see it.
So what's bugging me? The scholars and Imams of main-stream islam would want nothing more than the whole world to embrace islam. Every continent, every sort of person, every walk of life, even the "common" people.........Then why do they insist on sticking to rules that makes people feel islam is not for them? Are they really that ignorant that they do not understand that if they are really sincere about islam being a world religion, they must accept change and that people will make the message in the Quran applicable to them and their culture?
Oops fftopic
Back to Ramadhan. I think that the approach of Ramadhan being connected with the summer soltice is very interesting. I see how it fits into our life in a good way. Up here in the north the "month of scorching heat" (meaning june/july) is when the farmers are done sowing the seed, the fishermen do not fish (because of the biological cycle of fish) and the hunters do not hunt. It is a month of relaxing, watching the harvest, fish and meat grow. In my opinion, Allah would very much like his children to use this month of relaxation to contemplate over him, reading, learning, fasting some of the days, spending time with friends and relatives. Allah knows the other months are crammed with life-supporting activities such as gathering food and harvesting. Religion is not to be hard on us, why are we to fast during months where we have to work hard in order to survive? The month after summer solctice has always been "sacred" to us Scandihooligans. It stems long back in our history, long before the christians came. And what says that Allah did not send my ancestors a messenger? Maybe they, just like many other before and after them, got the message but interpreted a whole lot wrong? They got the whole God Alone concept totally up the wall wrong, that's for sure...But maybe, just maybe, they got the message of celebrating the summer solstice right.
Saying that june/july is the month of Ramadhan is contradicting myself. I cannot whine about the days being too long in august when I propose to move Ramadhan to july! But in my mind the timing of Ramadhan and the times to fast are two different subjects. I think using the traditional or literal translation of when to break/start the fast is not the way. There must be something that has been missed, there must be some evidence that makes it OK to fast in a manner that you, Siki, proposed. These are not retorical questions, I honestly don't know how.
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guest, salam.
2-187 ----You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn---
This is first light, you can determine the last last with the same reference.
And also ponder over , why didn't he choose the sun rise to begin fasting.
I have already posted clear proof in the shape of 15-65 and 6-76, that Ghoroubul shams is not the start of quranic layal , if you do not choose to ponder over what they are conveying, i can do no more.
Now how about you doing some work by showing us that quranic layal starts at Ghorobul shams, and why didnt God use the term/marker Gohorubul shams for ending fast instead of using the word layal?
peace
siki
Peace siki,
The two ends of a fasting day are clearly defined in the following verses
3637 - Another sign for them is the night we remove the daylight therefrom, whereupon they are in darkness.
Source of a day is the sun (sunlight). When the source (sun) is present it is a day. When the source is not there (i.e. below the horizon) it is night. And this defines one end of fasting and the other end is defined in 2187 - ?? You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn ?.
I don?t question Allah?s wisdom (why did He do this instead of that). I hear and obey His commandments.
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Hello all
This issue when to break fast and when salaat time is perhaps the most important issue for us coming from Scandinavia. We have a constant struggle against the time.....The summer is constant light and winter is constant darkness. Depending on when Ramadan starts in a particular year we either have heaven or hell (don't take the heaven or hell literally). This year for example we have it ok, fasting starts 0430 and ends 2130. Not too bad yeah
And I live in the south! Think how it is for those poor buggers in the north. Don't know if you know, but if you travel west from Stockholm (which is in the south of Sweden) and keep following the same latitude you will finally end up in......Alaska.
The normal consencus is that if the sun does not set or rise we are to follow the nearest muslim country's sunset/rise.
To me, that sounds like a lot of BS to be honest with you.....The Quran is complete, all the answers you can find there. I don't think for a second that when Allah almighty sent down the message of Ramadan/praying he "forgot" us scandihooligans or that it is actually true that we are to suffer (yes, pardon me for saying so, but fasting sometimes 20hrs/day for thirty days will zombify you) and in another year not being able to feel the effect of fasting because if you blink more than twice you missed that day.....
Due to the circumstances above, I think we are on the wrong interpretation path if we are to consider the sun as the clock of fasting/Ramadan. There must something we missed.
Peace Emil,
Your conclusion ?we either have heaven or hell? is wrong. Allah does not impose any hardship on us. He has already taken care of your situation. Your way out is feeding one poor person per fasting day. And you can find lots of poor people in the world. Please read the highlighted parts in the following verses
2185 - Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
2184 - Specific days (are designated for fasting); if one is ill or traveling, an equal number of other days may be substituted. Those who can fast, but with great difficulty, may substitute feeding one poor person for each day of breaking the fast. If one volunteers (more righteous works), it is better. But fasting is the best for you, if you only knew.
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I'm not sure, I have not studied if this phenomenon (i.e. shahr ramadan ~ scorching full-moon) happens everywhere on the planet. Perhaps Bro Ayman will know, as he has studied this subject, e.g.
http//www.free-minds.org/timingPeace Wakas,
Yes, he may have studied the subject but his conclusion has NO merits.
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Peace siki,
The two ends of a fasting day are clearly defined in the following verses
3637 - Another sign for them is the night we remove the daylight therefrom, whereupon they are in darkness.
Source of a day is the sun (sunlight). When the source (sun) is present it is a day. When the source is not there (i.e. below the horizon) it is night. And this defines one end of fasting and the other end is defined in 2187 - ?? You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn ?.
I don?t question Allah?s wisdom (why did He do this instead of that). I hear and obey His commandments.
Ayaha says that we remove the light therefrom Not the sun, some refractive light remains till sun goes a certain degrees below horizon.
siki
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Peace
I just read bits and pieces..
Verse 2187 says ilal-layl to the night? And verses 1778 mention ghasaqi el-layl ? darkness of night? Is it simply a description of night?
I think in terms of fasting if we take 2187 there?s no mentioning of ghasaq so the assumption would be the start of night, so twilight?
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Peace Emil,
Your conclusion ?we either have heaven or hell? is wrong. Allah does not impose any hardship on us. He has already taken care of your situation. Your way out is feeding one poor person per fasting day. And you can find lots of poor people in the world. Please read the highlighted parts in the following verses
2185 - Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
2184 - Specific days (are designated for fasting); if one is ill or traveling, an equal number of other days may be substituted. Those who can fast, but with great difficulty, may substitute feeding one poor person for each day of breaking the fast. If one volunteers (more righteous works), it is better. But fasting is the best for you, if you only knew.
Dear Guest
Please don't take the heaven or hell literally, I realize I should have written "easy or difficult". And it is a very good point you bring forward and that is what I actually most of the time follow, feed the poor and try to get involved in helping other people. Not because of the times of fasting but because of my work, If I don't eat (not enough energy) I will be a danger to my colleagues and patients.
But the fact remains. If a muslim wants (because AQ states it is the best for him) to fast during the time of Ramadhan and he lives in a northern country he will, depending on what year, either have an "easy" or "difficult" fast. A muslim in a northern country will not fast under the same premises as a muslim in, for example, Singapore. This, I feel is fundamentaly wrong. I also feel that the general rule to follow the nearest muslim country if the sun does not set in your location is wrong, as far as I understand this just a rule made with no reference to the AQ. I am sorry if I am basing my opinion on only that, opinion. But it doesnt just feel right that Allah's ruling is different depending on where you live. That is why I feel that something is missed, are we really interpreting it right?
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Peace
I just read bits and pieces..
Verse 2187 says ilal-layl to the night? And verses 1778 mention ghasaqi el-layl ? darkness of night? Is it simply a description of night?
I think in terms of fasting if we take 2187 there?s no mentioning of ghasaq so the assumption would be the start of night, so twilight?
you are restarting with very basic questions, whereas there is much more to it than what you are pointing, please use the search funhction, http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596792.0 even this could be helpful
siki
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?.feed the poor and try to get involved in helping other people?..
Peace Emil,
May Allah?s blessings and support be upon you for your good work/deeds.
But the fact remains. If a muslim wants (because AQ states it is the best for him) to fast during the time of Ramadhan and he lives in a northern country he will, depending on what year, either have an "easy" or "difficult" fast. A muslim in a northern country will not fast under the same premises as a muslim in, for example, Singapore. This, I feel is fundamentaly wrong.
In this situation, I am of the opinion that you get the same reward for feeding a poor person as the person fasting (sincerely) in Singapore. But if you insist on fasting then you should move to another land where you can perform the fasting and then return to your home. Praise be to Allah Lord of the worlds.
920 - Those who believe, and emigrate, and strive in the cause of GOD with their money and their lives, are far greater in rank in the sight of GOD. These are the winners.
I also feel that the general rule to follow the nearest muslim country if the sun does not set in your location is wrong, as far as I understand this just a rule made with no reference to the AQ.
I agree. Allah tells us to feed poor people. Alternately, one can migrate out of the land but this is NOT necessary if you are not oppresed.
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Ayaha says that we remove the light therefrom Not the sun, some refractive light remains till sun goes a certain degrees below horizon.
siki
Peace siki,
If you are going to include reflective/refractive sunlight in the definition of night then you will not be able to end fast for days when the moon is reflecting sunlight from sunset till dawn. One is able to read book with the moonlight. You will be the violator of your own definition of night.
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In this situation, I am of the opinion that you get the same reward for feeding a poor person as the person fasting (sincerely) in Singapore. But if you insist on fasting then you should move to another land where you can perform the fasting and then return to your home. Praise be to Allah Lord of the worlds.
Dear Guest
I think we both have the same opinion, I too regard feeding a poor person or helping others in need equivilant to fasting in a situation like this. I also think going out of the country may be a good alternative if one insists on fasting, very good point Guest.
But some people suffer from the "fear-god" complex. Some people believe they must fast. I heard today about a friend of mine fasting 15hrs a day.....she is 7 months pregnant......Her fear of god is greater than her fear of hurting her unborn child...To me, being medically trained, that is absolutely horrible...Another incident was last year during Ramadhan when I had to intubate a somali kid who went down during football practice. He was completely dehydrated! Fasting of course....nearly killed him.
I feel obliged to make them understand they are putting themselves and others at risk. No, I must because of my profession....The only way I can reach these people is through the way of religion, they don't listen to any medical reasoning. I tried using the way of "do not put hardship" as in 2184-185, but because hardship is objective I find I am brickwall
So my hope was to find a way of interpretating the fasting times in another way than the more traditional literal way. Maybe that way I open their eyes to an alternative and a more sensible approach to the fasting aspect of Ramadhan.
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Peace siki,
If you are going to include reflective/refractive sunlight in the definition of night then you will not be able to end fast for days when the moon is reflecting sunlight from sunset till dawn. One is able to read book with the moonlight. You will be the violator of your own definition of night.
guest
salam
There are quite a few ayahs which can be interpreted either way, but i have clearly given you two ayahs in which usage of word can not be interpreted as "layal starting from sun set", should i repeat them once again? OK , i will do it once more for you, here they are
6-76 When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear
15-65 "You shall take your family during the night. Stay behind them, and make sure that none of you looks back. Go straight as commanded
And of course one more reason, Ghorobul shams is a very prime and clear marker, and has been used by allah in quran, if he meant for us to break fast at this time , He would have used this term, But he doesn't, HE has used Layal, so one thing is very clear, Ghorobul shams is not layal.
During my scrutiny of all relevant ayahs on this issue, above three points tilted the balance in favour of layal NOT starting at Ghorubul shams.
I cant give you more, or better proves than the above, so dig this issue at your own and make up your mind.
peace
siki
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guest
salam
There are quite a few ayahs which can be interpreted either way, but i have clearly given you two ayahs in which usage of word can not be interpreted as "layal starting from sun set", should i repeat them once again? OK , i will do it once more for you, here they are
6-76 When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear
15-65 "You shall take your family during the night. Stay behind them, and make sure that none of you looks back. Go straight as commanded
And of course one more reason, Ghorobul shams is a very prime and clear marker, and has been used by allah in quran, if he meant for us to break fast at this time , He would have used this term, But he doesn't, HE has used Layal, so one thing is very clear, Ghorobul shams is not layal.
During my scrutiny of all relevant ayahs on this issue, above three points tilted the balance in favour of layal NOT starting at Ghorubul shams.
I cant give you more, or better proves than the above, so dig this issue at your own and make up your mind.
peace
siki
Peace siki,
Shining planet Venus can be seen at sunset with naked eyes. In fact it can be seen during the daylight. So what is your point on 676.
