What if you kill a non-believer?
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95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the Mushriks wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the Salat and Zakat, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Peace.
Surely you don't believe this , do you? if you don't what do you think it's all about? hmm
Salaams.
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I think it is allowed only in the holy land the one that harbors the House. Kinda remind me of the OT wars. Faith cleansing. ;D
Without meaning anything, if that only applies to holy lands, then would you agree that the following can apply to every where else?
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Then if they pass the forbidden limits then fight and kill the pagans wherever you find them.and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold a meeting and abide by what is agreed, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.? peaceor not?
God Bless All.
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Without meaning anything, if that only applies to holy lands, then would you agree that the following can apply to every where else?
95
Then if they pass the forbidden limits then fight and kill the pagans wherever you find them.and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold a meeting and abide by what is agreed, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.? peaceor not?
God Bless All.
I don't think so since Salat has some connection to the House. So the area around the House should be clean of idolatry. Anywhere else the idolatry should be left alone away from holy territory. Whatever that is. D
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I don't think so since Salat has some connection to the House. So the area around the House should be clean of idolatry. Anywhere else the idolatry should be left alone away from holy territory. Whatever that is.
Okay.
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Let's not take verses out of their context.
913 clearly shows they (mushriks) are the aggressors... This 'killing' is in self-defense.
But why are they the aggressors???
Because they are blocking the path to the House and defiling it with their idolatry....they are aggressors because they are mushriks so the only way they will get spared is to establish the Salat and Zakat or otherwise they either get out or DIE!
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Salam Rami,
I think you have a number of assumptions in your reading which are unwarranted, such as
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That 91-12 is somehow connected with 835. There is no evidence for this.
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The word '3inda al-bait' in 835 means within the precincts of the kaaba. From this assumption, you have imported the entire traditional myth about how the kaaba in makkah used to have 360 idols and thus u assumed that 'salat' here is their ritual prayers.
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That the Quran is geographically localised to 'holy lands'. Sorry but this has no evidence. The events in Quran are happening as we speak, albeit with different actors. The script is the same.
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You have interpreted 91-12 with a distinctly religious flavour. Do you think, given the spirit of Quran, God wants believers to kill off people to pray to statues?
somethings to think about, if thats ok.
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Without meaning anything, if that only applies to holy lands, then would you agree that the following can apply to every where else?
95
Then if they pass the forbidden limits then fight and kill the pagans wherever you find them.and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold a meeting and abide by what is agreed, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.? peace
or not?
God Bless All.Simple, your interpreation contradicts the context. Can you please look at 92. It says 'travel through the land for 4 ashhur'. How do you interpret this as 'limits'. Furthermore, the word 'limits' approximates to the word 'hudood' which actually is translated as limits. Hope you can explain this one.
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Let's not take verses out of their context.
913 clearly shows they (mushriks) are the aggressors... This 'killing' is in self-defense.
This is strengthened by the phrase 'ahadtum min al-mushrikeen' in 91. ''ahadtum' is 'you contracted'. So there is a contract here and the mushirkeen reneged on it.
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- That 91-12 is somehow connected with 835. There is no evidence for this.
This is because there are various kinds of people in the Quran...
Muslim - Believe in one God and the Last Day and practice Salat and Zakat=the only religion accepted by God.
Mushrik - Set up partners, reject the Last Day, practice crooked Salat and no Zakat.
Rejectors from the people of the Book - Rejected the Salat and Zakat and/or don't judge by scripture.
Mominoon - Believe in revelations of Mohammed in addition to being Muslims.So the Quran guides the Muslims to become Believers and so Islam is complemented with the Book.
- The word '3inda al-bait' in 835 means within the precincts of the kaaba. From this assumption, you have imported the entire traditional myth about how the kaaba in makkah used to have 360 idols and thus u assumed that 'salat' here is their ritual prayers.
The Quran says that their Salat was clapping and whistling. This most probably mean that Salat should be polite and in a moderate tone speech.
- That the Quran is geographically localised to 'holy lands'. Sorry but this has no evidence. The events in Quran are happening as we speak, albeit with different actors. The script is the same.
This doctrine is nowehre to be found in the Quran, all previous nations that were destroyed were near where Mohammed lived. The Quran asks the followers of the prophet to walk through the land and see the fate of the rejectors. The town of Lot was passed by the prophet and his companions day and night. Moses was in Midian and talked about Shuaib as being nearby then they moved to an area near Sodom. Moses also promised Jethro a couple of pilgrimages. And finally the Quran states that we are narrating the tales of the villages around you.
- You have interpreted 91-12 with a distinctly religious flavour. Do you think, given the spirit of Quran, God wants believers to kill off people to pray to statues?
If they defile God's house, they must be corrected. They can't be tolerated.
somethings to think about, if thats ok.
Love the hostility. bravo
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Firstly, let me just say that where I come from saying ?something to think about, if that?s ok? does not constitute hostility. If that?s how you construed it, then I apologise and rephrase it to ?just my humble comments?.
This is because there are various kinds of people in the Quran...
Muslim - Believe in one God and the Last Day and practice Salat and Zakat=the only religion accepted by God.
Mushrik - Set up partners, reject the Last Day, practice crooked Salat and no Zakat.
Rejectors from the people of the Book - Rejected the Salat and Zakat and/or don't judge by scripture.
Mominoon - Believe in revelations of Mohammed in addition to being Muslims.
So the Quran guides the Muslims to become Believers and so Islam is complemented with the Book.How you define ?muslim? is incorrect. A muslim isn?t defined by belief but by actions, in this case compliance with God?s laws. See 4914, the a?raabu were told not not to call themselves mumin but muslim because iman had not entered their hearts.
Similarly, mumin isn?t about believing in the revelations of Muhammad either. If you see ayah like 4136 you will find that the Quran isn?t mentioned at all. Its about rather believing in God, angels, writings (not all his writings either), messengers and the last day. No Quran is mentioned either.
The Quran says that their Salat was clapping and whistling. This most probably mean that Salat should be polite and in a moderate tone speech.
?Whistling? and ?clapping? are traditional interpretations which presuppose that salat is a ritual. You will not find such backing from Quran itself. A better interpretation is ?slander? and ?opposition? respectively. ?Tasdiya? in the Quran is used in other places to mean this.
This doctrine is nowehre to be found in the Quran, all previous nations that were destroyed were near where Mohammed lived. The Quran asks the followers of the prophet to walk through the land and see the fate of the rejectors. The town of Lot was passed by the prophet and his companions day and night. Moses was in Midian and talked about Shuaib as being nearby then they moved to an area near Sodom. Moses also promised Jethro a couple of pilgrimages. And finally the Quran states that we are narrating the tales of the villages around you.
You say ?this doctrine is nowhere to be found? by which you refer to my following statement ?The events in Quran are happening as we speak, albeit with different actors. The script is the same.?
Perhaps you should take a look 83/17 When Our Signs are rehearsed to him, he says, "Tales of the ancients!"
The Quran isn?t expecting us to do an Indiana jones and going to find ancient cities to explain it (although it does want us to see what happened to them ? something completely different) nor does it want us to read ancient myths (essentially what hadiths are). When you say ?the town of lot was passed by the prophet?, you are effectively saying that ayah is dead because it simply doesn?t apply now.
If they defile God's house, they must be corrected. They can't be tolerated.
So if a person went the kaaba today, danced around a bit and clapped, we should draw our swords out and show him to behave? Do you have evidence for this law?
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Firstly, let me just say that where I come from saying something to think about, if thats ok does not constitute hostility. If thats how you construed it, then I apologise and rephrase it to just my humble comments.
No problem.
How you define muslim is incorrect. A muslim isnt defined by belief but by actions, in this case compliance with Gods laws. See 4914, the araabu were told not not to call themselves mumin but muslim because iman had not entered their hearts.
First, what is God's law?
Can an atheist follow God's law and be called a Muslim??Similarly, mumin isnt about believing in the revelations of Muhammad either. If you see ayah like 4136 you will find that the Quran isnt mentioned at all. Its about rather believing in God, angels, writings (not all his writings either), messengers and the last day. No Quran is mentioned either.
Isn't the Books make up the Quran?? Isn't the Quran the Arabic rendition of the Book given to Moses held by the Israelites and witnesses over it??
Whistling and clapping are traditional interpretations which presuppose that salat is a ritual. You will not find such backing from Quran itself. A better interpretation is slander and opposition respectively. Tasdiya in the Quran is used in other places to mean this.
So what is Salaat, Zakat and Hajj from your perspective? Just quick definitions will do.
You say this doctrine is nowhere to be found by which you refer to my following statement The events in Quran are happening as we speak, albeit with different actors. The script is the same.
Perhaps you should take a look 83/17 When Our Signs are rehearsed to him, he says, "Tales of the ancients!"
The Quran isnt expecting us to do an Indiana jones and going to find ancient cities to explain it (although it does want us to see what happened to them something completely different) nor does it want us to read ancient myths (essentially what hadiths are). When you say the town of lot was passed by the prophet, you are effectively saying that ayah is dead because it simply doesnt apply now.
The Quran is narrating the stories of the past....and tales of the ancients almost always refers to the idea of life after death!
"Such things have been promised to us and to our fathers before! they are nothing but tales of the ancients!"
But (there is one) who says to his parents, "Fie on you! Do ye hold out the promise to me that I shall be raised up, even though generations have passed before me (without rising again)?" And they two seek Allah's aid, (and rebuke the son) "Woe to thee! Have faith! for the promise of Allah is true." But he says, "This is nothing but tales of the ancients!"
So if a person went the kaaba today, danced around a bit and clapped, we should draw our swords out and show him to behave? Do you have evidence for this law?
What will you do? At least you will tell him to leave.
Peace.
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First, what is God's law?
Universal rules for mankind to follow
Can an atheist follow God's law and be called a Muslim??
Sure. We can?t know what?s inside people?s hearts. As long as they follow the law (which is essentially being a peaceful and productive person) we won?t know what they really believe. That?s essentially what a munafiq is, by the way.
Isn't the Books make up the Quran?? Isn't the Quran the Arabic rendition of the Book given to Moses held by the Israelites and witnesses over it??
I would say that the Quran is the detail of God?s plan for mankind and yes, the same ideology given to Moses (though different in wording and language, perhaps).
So what is Salaat, Zakat and Hajj from your perspective? Just quick definitions will do.
Salat ? Acts which bond , mostly to God.
Zakat ? a state of betterment
Hajj ? Establishment of God?s system.The Quran is narrating the stories of the past....and tales of the ancients almost always refers to the idea of life after death!
"Such things have been promised to us and to our fathers before! they are nothing but tales of the ancients!"
But (there is one) who says to his parents, "Fie on you! Do ye hold out the promise to me that I shall be raised up, even though generations have passed before me (without rising again)?" And they two seek Allah's aid, (and rebuke the son) "Woe to thee! Have faith! for the promise of Allah is true." But he says, "This is nothing but tales of the ancients!"These stories happened in the past, sure but they are happening now. See this
Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? (4153)What will you do? At least you will tell him to leave.
Sure. Not that I believe in the concept of ?house of worship? but if a person intrudes on any private property, he should be asked to leave.
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Simple, your interpreation contradicts the context. Can you please look at 92. It says 'travel through the land for 4 ashhur'. How do you interpret this as 'limits'. Furthermore, the word 'limits' approximates to the word 'hudood' which actually is translated as limits. Hope you can explain this one.
let us simplify it further
92
So wander freely with your heavy handed aproach but know that you can not escape (from the punishment of) Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.wow
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Simple. I'm sorry but your translation above doesn't seem to cohere with 91. 91 is God giving immunity to those from the mushrikeen with whom the believers have a covenant. So why is 92 is telling them to keep doing what they're doing? Mind you, the traditional understanding (which is giving them 4 months) doesn't make much sense either.
Perhaps you can tell us your understanding of 91-12, if you don't mind?
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The believers made a covenant with the Pagans in clear violation to God and the Messenger....so God is clearing his name from this covenant...the believers were to keep their covenant to the end of sacred months and the believers were to execute the Pagans effective immediately. For God, you either become a Muslim near the House or die.
God doesn't negotiate with Pagans. D