Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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Peace all,
This is to everyone who claims that Today's Torah and Injeel are not the Words of God.
If I catch you again, giving your Sweet Words to the Christians and Jews whom join the Forum, by telling them that they are Moslems if they Follow their Books, then I will not be mercy with you and I will expose you (as I could have done now, but I decided not to).
Peace
& & & &
As Ayman told you before they are full of hearsay. Ahmet Deedat was once asked if the bible was Gods word and how do we know its Gods words. He replied the part of the book that God speaks directly is Gods words, the rest is hearsay
Peace
Hope
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& & & &
As Ayman told you before they are full of hearsay. Ahmet Deedat was once asked if the bible was Gods word and how do we know its Gods words. He replied the part of the book that God speaks directly is Gods words, the rest is hearsay
Peace
Hope
Do the Parts that speak about "Abraham had two wives" and "Pilgrim is to Jerusalem" are Hearsay?
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http//www.geocities.com/islamicdiscussions/theft.htm
Good point! Yet another problem for BelH's view..... but only if he clarifies who knew about the plot... if he says Joseph knew (as he seems to imply), then he'll have to explain how Joseph knew the sons of Jacob would say what they did and not the above. As I have already pointed out.Looking forward to see what BelH comes out with next..... if he answers of course.
Furthermore, he has to explain how it is possible to cut three or more hands of one thief.
It is crystal clear from 3145 and 5147 that "aydi" can mean/means "resources"/"means"/"power"/"might".You cannot use this story to cancel out the well-established meaning of 5-38.
Is this your fatwa?
Besides, I put the following in bold for a reason, in first post
3927 We have cited for the people in this reading from every example, that they may take heed.
Here is some more
1741 We have cited in this Quran so they may remember, but it only increases their aversion!
1789 We have cited to the people in this Quran of every example, but most of the people refuse to be anything but ingrates!
1854 We have cited in this Quran every example for the people. But the human being is always most argumentative.
3058 We have cited for the people in this Quran of every example. If you come to them with a sign, those who rejected will say, "You are bringing falsehood!"
3059 It is thus that God seals the hearts of those who do not know.
Not only the story did not Have a real thief
Was it a "fake thief", then?
Anyway, it is irrelevant, since the punishment is still described
1273 They said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!"
1274 He said, "What shall be the punishment, if you are liars?"
1275 They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the evildoers."
but Also the fact that God changes the Punishments and laws of the previous books in the Quran.
Correct, but not for theft, among other things. Are you sure that you have read my first post fully? I recommend re-reading it again. Pay special attention to the following
Someone would argue that was God's theft law for previous communities and we are not bound by it. Well, when God wants to change something, He specifies it (2187). Furthermore, Quran specifies when some laws do apply only for some communities (1611 and therefore we are not bound to apply them.
Furthermore, why would God give us the/an/a example/story of Joseph explaining the punishment for theft if it wouln't apply to us? Does this make sense to you? Does God want to confuse us? Please refer back to the verses which I have quoted in bold font above.
This is to everyone who claims that Today's Torah and Injeel are not the Words of God.
If I catch you again, giving your Sweet Words to the Christians and Jews whom join the Forum, by telling them that they are Moslems if they Follow their Books, then I will not be mercy with you and I will expose you (as I could have done now, but I decided not to).
"Today's Injeel" ??? What/where is "today's Injeel"?
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1275 They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the evildoers."
Wrong translation...moreover, which arabic word in 1275 means "Held".
God revealed the Hoodood (the Laws) that we need to punish others in the Quran, in a very Clear and well-established meaning...5-38 word by word translation clearly says "Cut their Hands". If you think the word by word translation does not convey your Understanding (which is yours and can be different from others), then do not change the True translation, as the Suni did with 24-2, rather, write your comments as a footnote.
Peace
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Wrong translation...moreover, which arabic word in 1275 means "Held".
God revealed the Hoodood (the Laws) that we need to punish others in the Quran, in a very Clear and well-established meaning...5-38 word by word translation clearly says "Cut their Hands". If you think the word by word translation does not convey your Understanding (which is yours and can be different from others), then do not change the True translation, as the Suni did with 24-2, rather, write your comments as a footnote.
Peace
You have definitely not paid attention to what others and I have written. Anyways, continue with your "cut their three or more hands" interpretation, if you like, and ignore all the evidence/points that have been brought forward in this discussion.
122 We have sent it down as an Arabic reading, so that you might encompass it with your reason and intellect.
1789 We have cited to the people in this reading of every example, but most of the people refuse to be anything but ingrates!
3058 We have cited for the people in this reading of every example. If you come to them with a sign, those who have rejected will say, "You are bringing falsehood!"
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You have definitely not paid attention to what others and I have written. Anyways, continue with your "cut their three or more hands" interpretation, if you like, and ignore all the evidence/points that have been brought forward in this discussion.
122 We have sent it down an Arabic reading, so that you might encompass it with your reason and intellect.
1789 We have cited to the people in this reading of every example, but most of the people refuse to be anything but ingrates!
3058 We have cited for the people in this reading of every example. If you come to them with a sign, those who rejected will say, "You are bringing falsehood!"
you still did not answer my question how would you go about enforcing the thief to work and repay what was stolen, especially if he needs to work to repay 50 billion dollar? Would you leash him so he will not run away, and what kind of job would make him earn 50 billion dollar?
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Do the Parts that speak about "Abraham had two wives" and "Pilgrim is to Jerusalem" are Hearsay?
Peace belH
I am sorry I do not have much knowledge of the bible, but only what I have been told or seen on lectures. God willing I will read more to reseach for myself one day. Of what I have read I could not accept e.g. making partners to God. So I am inclined to accept that the Bible has been corrupted in one way or another. But as I say more knowledgable brothers have read it and studied it for many years and what I know of it is through them at present.
Peace
Hope
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That's a traditional story, it's not supported in the Qur'aan. As far as we know, based on the Qur'aan, both Ishmael and Isaac were born of the same mother (i.e. Sarah).
Could you please tell me more about that? Like articles and verse numbers?
I always found it strange that the Quran mentions Ibrahim's wife, but never mentions her name, but it also could be that I overlooked it. -
Peace belH
I am sorry I do not have much knowledge of the bible, but only what I have been told or seen on lectures. God willing I will read more to reseach for myself one day. Of what I have read I could not accept e.g. making partners to God. So I am inclined to accept that the Bible has been corrupted in one way or another. But as I say more knowledgable brothers have read it and studied it for many years and what I know of it is through them at present.
Peace
Hope
Me too, I did not have much knowledge of Torah and Injeel because I relied on the Suni and Shia opinion until I started to investigate by myself.
Please do the job by yourself...Here were you can find word by word translation for the Torah and Injeel
http//www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
Peace
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Me too, I did not have much knowledge of Torah and Injeel because I relied on the Suni and Shia opinion until I started to investigate by myself.
Please do the job by yourself...Here were you can find word by word translation for the Torah and Injeel
http//www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
Peace
Peace belh
Thank you for the site.
Peace
Hope
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Peace belh
Thank you for the site.
Peace
Hope
You welcome! Remember, The Quran should be your guide to know the true words of your Lord when reading the other books ( there shall be no contradiction between the Books).
May God increase our Knowledge.
Peace -
Could you please tell me more about that? Like articles and verse numbers?
I always found it strange that the Quran mentions Ibrahim's wife, but never mentions her name, but it also could be that I overlooked it.Does knowing the name change anything? Will it lead to guidance?
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Peace
As I have not fully rejected the usefulness of hadith (provided not for legal or religious binding duties), and I look at the bible as historical accounts from the lives of the prophets, i do accept that Abraham had two wives, Hajar and Sarah, Hajar gave Ismael, and Sarah gave Isaac...
From the Bible and the Quran it is also very clear in my understanding that the first Temple in Becca was put up by Abraham in Jerusalem and it is the Qibla for us and where we should perform the pilgrimage.
We have now some good work done by herbman that in fact Joseph was taken to Babylon and not Egypt as first thought and that Jacob's descendant Moses lived there with the Pharao referred to in the Quran who was therefore either Persian or Sumerian.
Please also note that Allah in the Quran rarely refers to people by their names, apart from Prophets and a few others, there is most probably a very good reason for that.
Also remember the story of the youth of the cave and the argument of the city dwellers about how long they slept, and how many they were, and what to do about where their burial ground was, instead of focusing on the reason behind why those youth were taken away in the first place, and the miracle behind that...
This is our story arguing about little details...
and making someone kafeer because he does not believe if Abraham married one wife or two wives...
We need to focus on the bottom line which is salvation...
and most of us are not fit to be good ulama, because we are incapable to accept differing opinions... yes you read right, being a believer does not mean being a drone, you are entitled to many opinions, and free to exchange them, of course, peacefully and courteously... -
Just to add my two cents worth...It seems from the Quran that Abraham was indeed married to two women. One who bore him Ismail, and, many years later, another who bore him Isaac.
The evidence for this can be found as follows
- When Abraham is raising the foundation of the Temple, he is helped by Ismail, who, to help in such task, must at least have been a young adult.
- When Abraham is visited in old age by the angels, and is given news of a son, he says his wife is barren and could not possibly have children (thus ruling her out from being Ismail's mother).
- The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife (he never says "one of my wives is barren"...he simply says "my wife is barren" which means that the mother of Ismail is no longer on the scene (having either passed away or been divorced) when Isaac is born.
This is a great analysis. I never even thought about it like this... Thanks! peace
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Could you please tell me more about that? Like articles and verse numbers?
I always found it strange that the Quran mentions Ibrahim's wife, but never mentions her name, but it also could be that I overlooked it.Sure... The Qur'aan never mentions the name of Abraham's wife ("Sarah" in the Torah), even though it mentions her. And it never seems to refer to the Biblical "Hagar" at all, mentioned in Genesis 161-16 and Genesis 211-21... In Hebrew, the word "hagar" means stranger, and this may have been a title given to her (not her real name) in the Torah because she was a stranger among the Hebrews, originally being from Egypt. But again, the mother of Isaac is mentioned in the Qur'aan, but it never specifically refers to the mother of Ishmael. However, it DOES imply that Abraham may have had more than one wife, as Layth pointed out...
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Abraham's wife clearly says that she can't have children because she is old not because she has always been barren regardless of age. In fact, barren is no where mentioned in 1172 and simply "old" is mentioned. In 5129 old is mentioned first and sterile is mentioned in relation to old.
This is what I was thinking when I read the post. peace -
Salam,
Just to add my two cents worth...It seems from the Quran that Abraham was indeed married to two women. One who bore him Ismail, and, many years later, another who bore him Isaac.
The evidence for this can be found as follows
- When Abraham is raising the foundation of the Temple, he is helped by Ismail, who, to help in such task, must at least have been a young adult.
- When Abraham is visited in old age by the angels, and is given news of a son, he says his wife is barren and could not possibly have children (thus ruling her out from being Ismail's mother).
- The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife (he never says "one of my wives is barren"...he simply says "my wife is barren" which means that the mother of Ismail is no longer on the scene (having either passed away or been divorced) when Isaac is born.
Please chose your sources carefully. The current Torah/Bible is pretty much the same as todays Hadith (i.e. full of lies and conjecture).
hmm I think you are right. However I would like to know the source.
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Peace belH, all,
to realign back to the title of this thread and belH accusation that Free-Minds.org is a Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.Can belH ever so kindly enlighten me as what he means by the word Sect (in detail) that he labels Free-Minds.org, Suni and Shia?
We can then move better forward, because I am really unsure what is the purpose of this thread now... )
Oh you are so simple the purpose of this thread is slandering and accusation and imaginations what else. elektro
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you still did not answer my question how would you go about enforcing the thief to work and repay what was stolen, especially if he needs to work to repay 50 billion dollar? Would you leash him so he will not run away, and what kind of job would make him earn 50 billion dollar?
I did not see this question being directed at me, but I'll answer nonetheless.
You would enforce God's law, which was also enforced by Joseph1274 He said, "What shall be the punishment, if you are liars?"
1275 They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the doers of wrong."
1276 So he began with their bags before his brother's bag. Then he brought it (ie. the cup) out of his brother's bag. It was such that We planned for Joseph, for he would not have been able to take his brother under the King's system, except that God wished it so. We raise the degrees of whom We please, and over every one of knowledge is the All Knowledgeable.
538 The male thief, and the female thief, cut-off/cut their means/resources (plural - three or more) as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.
Maybe you should answer my question DO PEOPLE HAVE THREE OR MORE HANDS? DOES THE VERSE MAKE SENSE IF WE TRANSLATE "AYDIYAHUMA" AS "THEIR THREE OR MORE HANDS?
Furthermore, did God create the universe with his three or more hands, or his might/resouces/power (5147)?
Were David, Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael resourceful or did they have many/three or more hands (3817; 3857)?
Why does God show us the punishment for theft put into action by Joseph if this is not what he wants us to do? Does God want to confuse us?
Where does it say that the punishment used by Jospeh is out-of-date/not for us to implement?
2171 The example of those who reject/are unappreciative is like the one who repeats what he has heard of calls and shouts; deaf, dumb, and blind; they do not use their reason and intellect.
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If I catch you again, giving your Sweet Words to the Christians and Jews whom join the Forum, by telling them that they are Moslems if they Follow their Books, then I will not have mercy, and I will expose your other side (as I could have done now, but I decided not to).
Now BelH doesn't even understand the meaning of the word "muslim"!
It goes from bad to worse.
http//www.radicalacademy.com/logiccritthinking.htm
