Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.

Rev_John

Peace belH

I am sorry I do not have much knowledge of the bible, but only what I have been told or seen on lectures. God willing I will read more to reseach for myself one day. Of what I have read I could not accept e.g. making partners to God. So I am inclined to accept that the Bible has been corrupted in one way or another. But as I say more knowledgable brothers have read it and studied it for many years and what I know of it is through them at present.

Peace

Hope

Yes the bible has been corrupted. But it does still say that there is only one God and you should not put anyone equal to God. Jesus even said "you can reject me, but do not reject the Father".

noble

Peace bros, sis, humans, and jinns )
i am sure that all the books the Quran refer to are hidden somewhere, in their pristine form, and in the way they were supposed to be revealed, either in the possession of humans or jinns, and one day, a generation of humans will have the luck, or misfortune, depending on where they stand, to see for themselves those revelations.
As an example, how come we have so very little access to the Dead Sea Scrolls which come from an area the majority of which is not even within the Israeli borders, and how on earth did they end up within Israel remit, who now claim there is not enough funds to study them all? ???
How about the huge collection of archives the Vatican collected hidden in their vaults?
The archives the family of Saud have in their possession?
The ones the Rabbis possess too that the Quran say they like making pieces of folded papers that they keep...
I trust Allah, it will come out...

guest

Peace Layth,

Salam,

Just to add my two cents worth...It seems from the Quran that Abraham was indeed married to two women. One who bore him Ismail, and, many years later, another who bore him Isaac.

The evidence for this can be found as follows

When Abraham is raising the foundation of the Temple, he is helped by Ismail, who, to help in such task, must at least have been a young adult.
When Abraham is visited in old age by the angels, and is given news of a son, he says his wife is barren and could not possibly have children (thus ruling her out from being Ismail's mother).
The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife (he never says "one of my wives is barren"...he simply says "my wife is barren&quot which means that the mother of Ismail is no longer on the scene (having either passed away or been divorced) when Isaac is born.

Please chose your sources carefully. The current Torah/Bible is pretty much the same as todays Hadith (i.e. full of lies and conjecture).

Yes, I do agree that we should choose our sources very carefully and efficiently when dealing with our religious belief. However, your conclusion may not be all inclusive i.e. you negated the option that could be derived from 1439.

1439 - Praise be to GOD for granting me, despite my old age, Ismail and Isaac. My Lord answers the prayers.

Abraham had only one wife (one marriage) from which came both Ismail and Isaac
Ismail was born while the wife was still fertile (say age 43). This age would be consistent with 1439
Wife becomes barren after Ismail is born
Abraham builds the foundation of shrine at about the age 55 with 12 years old Ismail
Around age 55, Abraham and his wife gets the good news of Isaac. That?s when the God removed the infertility of Abrahams wife just like God parted the sea for Mosses and his people
This proves that Ismail and Isaac had the same mother

I believe this explanation does not violate any Quranic verses nor does it leave any key options out. Please let me know if you find anything wrong with this idea. Thanks!

hope4

Yes the bible has been corrupted. But it does still say that there is only one God and you should not put anyone equal to God. Jesus even said "you can reject me, but do not reject the Father".

Peace Rev.John

I haven't read much of the bible, but it is something I would like to do at some point. When reading it I will deffinitly be looking out for what you have stated as this is in line with the Quran. I also believe that Jesus would have said what you have quoted as this is also in line with the Quran. It will be nice for you to give us quotes from the Bible regarding particular issues or just generally. This will help with our education of the Bible God willing. As a side note which version of the Bibile do you read? Can it be downloaded on pdf?

Peace

Hope

noble

Peace all
It does not bother me either way if Abraham had Ismael and Isaac from the same wife or two different ones...
however I get very irritated when on the basis of believing either someone can be branded a believer or a non-believer,
that is mickey-mouse thinking at its most ridiculous, and maybe dangerous!

belH

I did not see this question being directed at me, but I'll answer nonetheless.
You would enforce God's law, which was also enforced by Joseph

1274 He said, "What shall be the punishment, if you are liars?"

1275 They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the doers of wrong."

1276 So he began with their bags before his brother's bag. Then he brought it (ie. the cup) out of his brother's bag. It was such that We planned for Joseph, for he would not have been able to take his brother under the King's system, except that God wished it so. We raise the degrees of whom We please, and over every one of knowledge is the All Knowledgeable.

538 The male thief, and the female thief, cut-off/cut their means/resources (plural - three or more) as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.

Maybe you should answer my question DO PEOPLE HAVE THREE OR MORE HANDS? DOES THE VERSE MAKE SENSE IF WE TRANSLATE "AYDIYAHUMA" AS "THEIR THREE OR MORE HANDS?

Furthermore, did God create the universe with his three or more hands, or his might/resouces/power (5147)?

Were David, Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael resourceful or did they have many/three or more hands (3817; 3857)?

Why does God show us the punishment for theft put into action by Joseph if this is not what he wants us to do? Does God want to confuse us?

Where does it say that the punishment used by Jospeh is out-of-date/not for us to implement?

2171 The example of those who reject/are unappreciative is like the one who repeats what he has heard of calls and shouts; deaf, dumb, and blind; they do not use their reason and intellect.

Peace all,

The Questions were

how would you go about enforcing the thief to work and repay what was stolen, especially if he needs to work to repay 50 billion dollar?

In your answer, did you mean Jail Him, or did you mean take him into slavery? Furthermore, what Kind of Job would make the Thief earn 50 Billion Dollar, as in Medoff Case.

Also, you said

Quote
538 The male thief, and the female thief, cut-off/cut their means/resources (plural - three or more) as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.

Maybe you should answer my question DO PEOPLE HAVE THREE OR MORE HANDS? DOES THE VERSE MAKE SENSE IF WE TRANSLATE "AYDIYAHUMA" AS "THEIR THREE OR MORE HANDS?
End Quote

The two thieves, male and Female, Have Four Hands (which is more than three hands)

belH

Now BelH doesn't even understand the meaning of the word "muslim"!

It goes from bad to worse.

http//www.radicalacademy.com/logiccritthinking.htm

Maybe you can teach us...please feel free to tell us the meaning.

belH

The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife (he never says "one of my wives is barren"...he simply says "my wife is barren&quot which means that the mother of Ismail is no longer on the scene (having either passed away or been divorced) when Isaac is born.

Peace,
His other wife was not in the scene because Abraham had Lift here and her Son, Ismail, in the Uncultivated Valley.

1437

Our Lord, I have resided part of my progeny in an uncultivated valley near your Restricted House. My Lord, so that they may hold the bond. So let the hearts of the people incline towards them and give provisions to them of the fruits that they may give thanks.

The above verse confirms the Biblic story about Abraham leaving hajer and Ismail after Sarah requested him to do so.

I believe that God wants us to read the Bible and Torah in order to know about the Complete Quranic Stories, which are written very briefly, eccept for Yousuf story...And for us to know about the complete stories, we will need other sources...and these sources could be God's Books (Torah and Injeel) or Man made Books.

Peace

Ahmad_Bilal

1437

Our Lord, I have resided part of my progeny in an uncultivated valley near your Restricted House. My Lord, so that they may hold the bond. So let the hearts of the people incline towards them and give provisions to them of the fruits that they may give thanks.

I don't think this passage is talking about Ishmael. And if it is, it's implying that (1) Abraham had more than two sons, or (2) Ishmael also had descendants, and this was referring to Ishmael and his wife and children... Here's what a basic translation of the passage looks like

Our Lord, I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Your restricted/sacred house, our Lord, that they may keep up the salaat/bond/prayer. So, make the hearts of some people yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they may be grateful. (Q. 1437)

Now, in this passage, Abraham is specifically referring only to his offspring, which didn't include the Biblical character "Hagar". So, who is the "them" being referred to? Ishmael and who? If it is referring to him, it's most likely speaking of Ishmael and his descendants, and this wouldn't have anything to do with Hagar; she probably wasn't even there. This implies that Ishmael was an adult male when he separated from his father Abraham, he wasn't a small child who was cast out with his mother.

The idea that Abraham abandoned his wife and child in an uncultivated desert valley is horrendous, and there's nothing in the Qur'aan that says this. It's inconceivable that a prophet of God would do this. Therefore, in my opinion, this is more likely a passage referring to Ishmael and his offspring (which are also Abraham's progeny, his grandchildren), not to an infant Ishmael and his poor mother...

Jack

Rezurriyah/descendants

2128 is an excellent reference '...And from our progeny a nation surrendering (muslim) to you.'

belH

I don't think this passage is talking about Ishmael. And if it is, it's implying that (1) Abraham had more than two sons, or (2) Ishmael also had descendants, and this was referring to Ishmael and his wife and children... Here's what a basic translation of the passage looks like

Our Lord, I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Your restricted/sacred house, our Lord, that they may keep up the salaat/bond/prayer. So, make the hearts of some people yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they may be grateful. (Q. 1437)

Now, in this passage, Abraham is specifically referring only to his offspring, which didn't include the Biblical character "Hagar". So, who is the "them" being referred to? Ishmael and who? If it is referring to him, it's most likely speaking of Ishmael and his descendants, and this wouldn't have anything to do with Hagar; she probably wasn't even there. This implies that Ishmael was an adult male when he separated from his father Abraham, he wasn't a small child who was cast out with his mother.

The idea that Abraham abandoned his wife and child in an uncultivated desert valley is horrendous, and there's nothing in the Qur'aan that says this. It's inconceivable that a prophet of God would do this. Therefore, in my opinion, this is more likely a passage referring to Ishmael and his offspring (which are also Abraham's progeny, his grandchildren), not to an infant Ishmael and his poor mother...

Peace Ahamad,
Are you advising me to reject The Torah Story?
Zuria can mean Son or daughter as well.
Peace

Ahmad_Bilal

Are you advising me to reject The Torah Story?
Zuria can mean Son or daughter as well.

I'm just saying you should really look into the ideas presented in the Tanakh when it comes to biographies of the prophets. The Tanakh alleges that King David committed adultery with a married woman and then killed her husband. It alleges that King Solomon had hundreds of wives, and they led him into idolatry. It alleges that Noah was a public alcoholic, and he committed incest, impregnating his own daughters after the flood. And, on top of all this, it claims that Abraham abandoned his wife and infant child in the desert with no adequate supply of food or water, pretty much leaving them to die... You should study these texts carefully. Everything you read in the Tanakh is not necessarily true, and it doesn't always depict a true or positive image of the prophets of God.

And even though the passage could be mentioning a son or a daughter, the "offspring" is mentioned in the plural sense, meaning there was more that one descendant of Abraham there.

belH

I'm just saying you should really look into the ideas presented in the Tanakh when it comes to biographies of the prophets. The Tanakh alleges that King David committed adultery with a married woman and then killed her husband. It alleges that King Solomon had hundreds of wives, and they led him into idolatry. It alleges that Noah was a public alcoholic, and he committed incest, impregnating his own daughters after the flood. And, on top of all this, it claims that Abraham abandoned his wife and infant child in the desert with no adequate supply of food or water, pretty much leaving them to die... You should study these texts carefully. Everything you read in the Tanakh is not necessarily true, and it doesn't always depict a true or positive image of the prophets of God.

And even though the passage could be mentioning a son or a daughter, the "offspring" is mentioned in the plural sense, meaning there was more that one descendant of Abraham there.

Peace,
The Torah should not have any stories about Solomon or David, simply because their time was after the Torah; Moreover, The Crucifixion of Jesus should not be part of the Bible, because at that Time Jesus was raisin to God. We are only asked to believe in the Torah that were given to Moses and the Bible that was given to Jesus. And these are the Two books that God spoke about to Prophet Mohamed and ordered Him to believe in.

Also, do not forget that God asked Abraham to do many hard to believe things, such as Sloughing His own Son and abandoning his wife and infant child in the desert with no adequate supply of food or water (which are confirmed by the Quran and Torah).

When reading the Other books, we only need to believe in what are confirmed by the Quran.

And even though the passage could be mentioning a son or a daughter, the "offspring" is mentioned in the plural sense, meaning there was more that one descendant of Abraham there.

What is the singular word for ""?

Peace

Wakas

Maybe you can teach us...please feel free to tell us the meaning.

I recommend studying every occurrence of the word in Al Quran. This study technique is simple, powerful, fruitful, but only for those who put in the time and effort

= Siin-Lam-Miim = safety/security/freedom/immunity, to escape, salutation/greeting/peace, deliver/acknowledge, pay in advance, submit, sincerity, humility, submission/conformance/obedience, resign/quit/relinquish, to be in sound condition, well without blemish, gentle/tender/soft/elegant. Solomon/Sulaiman.

salima vb. (1) pcple. act. 6843

salam n.m. 490, 491, 1628, 1687, 3929

salam n.m. 494, 516, 654, 6127, 746, 1010, 1025, 1148, 1169, 1324, 1423, 1546, 1552, 1632, 1915, 1933, 1947, 1962, 2047, 2169, 2563, 2575, 2759, 2855, 3344, 3658, 3779, 37109, 37120, 37130, 37181, 3973, 4389, 5034, 5125, 5125, 5626, 5626, 5691, 5923, 975

salim n.m. (adj) 2689, 3784

salm n.m. 861, 4735

silm n.com. 2208

sulayman n.prop. 2102, 2102, 4163, 684, 2178, 2179, 2181, 2715, 2716, 2717, 2718, 2730, 2736, 2744, 3412, 3830, 3834

sullam n.m. 635, 5238

sallama vb. (2)
perf. act. 2233, 843
impf. act. 465, 2427
impv. 2461, 3356
n.vb. 465, 3322, 3356
pcple. pass. f. 271, 492, 492

aslama vb. (4)
perf. act. 2112, 2131, 320, 320, 320, 383, 4125, 544, 614, 2744, 37103, 4914, 4917, 7214
impf. act. 671, 1681, 3122, 4066, 4816
impv. 2131, 2234, 3954
n.vb. 319, 385, 53, 6125, 974, 3922, 4917, 617
pcple. act. 2128, 2128, 2132, 2133, 2136, 352, 364, 367, 380, 384, 3102, 5111, 6163, 7126, 1072, 1084, 1090, 1114, 12101, 152, 1689, 16102, 21108, 2278, 2731, 2738, 2742, 2781, 2791, 2853, 2946, 3053, 3335, 3335, 3912, 4133, 4369, 4615, 5136, 665, 6835, 7214

istaslama vb. (10) pcple. act. 3726

LL, V4, p 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141

From http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

MUNZIR_ALI

I recommend studying every occurrence of the word in Al Quran. This study technique is simple, powerful, fruitful, but only for those who put in the time and effort

= Siin-Lam-Miim = safety/security/freedom/immunity, to escape, salutation/greeting/peace, deliver/acknowledge, pay in advance, submit, sincerity, humility, submission/conformance/obedience, resign/quit/relinquish, to be in sound condition, well without blemish, gentle/tender/soft/elegant. Solomon/Sulaiman.

Great defenition. bravo

guest

Peace,