Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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Salam,
This site/forum was created to give people a free platform to discuss/debate and study the word of God as it deserved to be studied - never to be against God's system...To make the site or its members to be the object/goal rather than God Alone is an 'abomination' (always wanted to use that word in a sentence!).
Here is what FM promotes 'To serve God alone and to teach that the Quran's laws overide any/all opinoins no matter what.' If that is the teachings of a sect, then I gladly will be first to belong to such sect. Or, as the prophet Mohammed said when people kept insisting that God had a son
4381 Say ?If the Almighty had a son, I would be the first to serve!?
I have observed that the negative repsonces (not this thread - but in general) to our movement and by extension to this site are attributed (but not limited to) to a number of reasons
- The attacks are done by people who continue to 'reject' the system of God and who do not believe in the words of the Quran - thus they attempt to make 'noise so as to distract from the study of the Quran.
4126 And those who rejected said ?Do not listen to this Reading and make noise over it that you may succeed.?
- The attacks are done by people who are 'scared' of the changes that takes them away from their established norms/comfort-zone.
2170 And if they are told ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not comprehend anything and were not guided?
- The attacks are done by people who are 'ignorant' of what the Quran teaches and are in a rush to make judgement without taking the time for proper study/reflection.
9122 And it is not advisable for the believers to mobilize in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.
Finally, if what is projected on this site is 'falsehood' then we can all rest assured that what is being projected will fade away, but if what is being projected is the truth, then it will remain long after we are all gone...
1317 He sends down water from the sky, so valleys flow according to their capacity, and the flood produces foam. And from what they burn to smelt jewelry or goods is produced a similar foam. It is in such a manor that God strikes the falsehood with the truth. As for the foam, it passes away, and as for what benefits the people, it remains in the earth. It is such that God puts forth the examples.
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Peace all,
Salam,
This site/forum was created to give people a free platform to discuss/debate and study the word of God as it deserved to be studied - never to be against God's system...To make the site or its members to be the object/goal rather than God Alone is an 'abomination' (always wanted to use that word in a sentence!).
Here is what FM promotes 'To serve God alone and to teach that the Quran's laws overide any/all opinoins no matter what.' If that is the teachings of a sect, then I gladly will be first to belong to such sect. Or, as the prophet Mohammed said when people kept insisting that God had a son
4381 Say ?If the Almighty had a son, I would be the first to serve!?
And that is the reason I joined this forum; however, when I read their understanding of God's system (the topic of my thread), I disagreed.
I have observed that the negative repsonces (not this thread - but in general) to our movement and by extension to this site are attributed (but not limited to) to a number of reasons
- The attacks are done by people who continue to 'reject' the system of God and who do not believe in the words of the Quran - thus they attempt to make 'noise so as to distract from the study of the Quran.
4126 And those who rejected said ?Do not listen to this Reading and make noise over it that you may succeed.?
I do not reject the system of God that is very well defined in the Quran, Torah and Injeel, rather, I reject all the Man made systems that violates the well-established meanings of God's system.
- The attacks are done by people who are 'scared' of the changes that takes them away from their established norms/comfort-zone.
2170 And if they are told ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not comprehend anything and were not guided?
I never was scared to change when finding that my established understanding of Quran is wrong; examples, I changed my position of "Hajj to Macca" to "Hajj to Jerusalem" due to YOUR Analysis (which I'm currently defending in this thread); I changed from praying 5 times to 3 times; I rejected all the hadiths that violates the Quran teachings.
- The attacks are done by people who are 'ignorant' of what the Quran teaches and are in a rush to make judgement without taking the time for proper study/reflection.
9122 And it is not advisable for the believers to mobilize in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.
If my understanding that Hajj should be to Jerusalem is an IGNORANT understanding, then, why did you write your study that was the Main reason that caused me to have an Ignorant understanding? If you choose to abandon your Ideas that you promoted (through your article), then you are obligated to tell us why your understanding was an Ignorant understanding. Then, may be I will agree with you, or maybe I will adopt it and continue to defend.
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peace,
Established in your own mind perhaps. Tell us, why did Joseph "twist" it and not cut off hands for theft? Tell us, what happens when someone steals a small item, such as a pen?
I did not see any "indisputable" evidence. I saw evidence that was so poor it is nowhere near the vicinity of "indisputable". Anyone can understand the meaning of "maqam" by simply reading its occurrences in AQ.
All I know is the free-minds homepage is saying the year is luni-solar, as opposed to the Sunni luni year version. If it is not clear, then it is not clear, but the fact remains you criticised it and also brought a luni-solar theory. Perhaps you meant to say your theory and their theory is not identical, hence the alleged "lie".
It points out the differences. In any case, your above statement is not the same as what you said earlier
Who is the one lying now? It is you, unless you can evidence your statement. Perhaps if you clarified and said "they imply that..." or "that can be taken to mean..." or "i interpret that as...".
Wakas,
Before debating with you, are you speaking on behalf of Free.minds.org? Or you are debating your own understanding. -
Salam,
If my understanding that Hajj should be to Jerusalem is an IGNORANT understanding, then, why did you write your study that was the Main reason that caused me to have an Ignorant understanding? If you choose to abandon your Ideas that you promoted (through your article), then you are obligated to tell us why your understanding was an Ignorant understanding. Then, may be I will agree with you, or maybe I will adopt it and continue to defend.
I have not changed my position that Hajj is to Jerusalem and that this is spelled out in the many verses of the Quran that deal with the subject. God willing we will all meet there one day when the Temple is liberated and the pilgrimage is called to once again.
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Salam,
I have not changed my position that Hajj is to Jerusalem and that this is spelled out in the many verses of the Quran that deal with the subject. God willing we will all meet there one day when the Temple is liberated and the pilgrimage is called to once again.
Peace,
I'm planning to go to Jerusalem this year or next, God willing.Then, if this the case, if any one promotes otherwise, would it be fair to call him a sectarian who does not represent the True Islam?
Peace -
Peace,
I don't have anything against the order and free beliefs on this site. However, the people make the FMs sectarian by calling their beliefs the "right" ones and concluding that everyone else's beliefs are "wrong". Part of Islaam involves freedom of thought and belief; nobody can be forced to believe in anything, since "there is no compulsion in religion". So, why is there so much bias against other groups, especially those who have very similar, nearly identical beliefs?
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Peace all,
I knew that this thread was going to be taught
Free-Minds.org should be the Moderator and not the judge between the different understanding of Quran. And if they choose otherwise, then I and others who disagree with their understanding have all the right to criticize them.So because they have articles, that consitutes making a sect? By the way, FM site has articles written by different people representing different views. It's impossible to accuse FM of being biased in any way.
However, ultimately, we will all have to choose interpretations. Does that mean we're all creating sects?
A sect is characterised by its exclusivist nature. Sunnism is a sect. Quranism is a pluralistic path, room for many interpretations. FM is like that.
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I disagree with you on this... Yes, Free-Minds has various opinions concerning Islaamic teachings. However, if a person is opposed to certain ideologies that are accepted by "long-standing members", that person is viewed as wrong and unknowledgeable. Other groups ("sects" within the Free-Minds forum also do the same thing, going to the point of calling names and insulting other sects and members of them. That, by definition, is a sect...
So insulting people and saying they're wrong (even if this is true) is by definition a 'sect'? English must have changed since I awoke this morning.
When it comes to the Free-Minds forum, in comparison to the Sunnis and Shias, the doctrines are the same when it comes to prophets. Yes, Sunnis and Shias teach that you must believe in Muhammad, but it's no different than their teachings instructing their followers to believe in Moses and Jesus. And the members of Free-Minds are also expected to believe in the prophets, including Muhammad. Belief in Muhammad doesn't have anything to do with believing in a culture or nation, since even Sunni Islaam is universal; people of all races and backgrounds are allowed to embrace Sunni (traditional) Islaam... Also, all Sunni groups don't tell members that they MUST pray in Arabic; by most, it's considered optional and applaudable, but not mandatory. In many groups, it is acceptable to pray in one's own language, since simply reciting from memory in a foreign language will reduce the feelings of honor and humility when performing the prayer. Islaamic prayer should come from the heart, and it should be done in a language that the praying person understands. The Free-Minds, however, in many cases, tell their members NOT to pray at all, saying that the concept of "salaat" (if taken to mean prayer) involves no rituals, and that the Qur'aanic command to 'bow and prostrate' are only metaphorical, not literal.
Members of Free-minds are not expected to believe in anything. Try declaring yourself an atheist Satanist but keep on discussing peacefully, you?ll see there?s no problem whatsoever.
As for Sunnism, it is NOT acceptable to pray in another language. Apologies but it appears you?re unaware of the fuqaha debates on the matter. All schools agree that if you pray in another language, your prayer is null and void.
FM is not an entity and does not ?tell? it members anything. It has articles saying what salat is but if you don?t accept it, fine. Try this experiment, go to a masjid, during fardh prayer, DON?T PRAY. Or pray in the direction of Jerusalem or Petra. Then when Sunnis ask you, tell them you think qibla is there. Make you sure you know how to tumble and roll though, cause it?ll help cushion the blow when they throw you out.
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Salam,
I have observed that the negative repsonces (not this thread - but in general) to our movement and by extension to this site are attributed (but not limited to) to a number of reasonsYou forgot the last reason - the possibility that you're wrong. After all, the dozes on revisions in FM articles does show that the writers themselves can admit their own mistakes.
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I never was scared to change when finding that my established understanding of Quran is wrong; examples, I changed my position of "Hajj to Macca" to "Hajj to Jerusalem" due to YOUR Analysis (which I'm currently defending in this thread); I changed from praying 5 times to 3 times; I rejected all the hadiths that violates the Quran teachings.
You should adopt a view because of your OWN research not anyone elses.
If my understanding that Hajj should be to Jerusalem is an IGNORANT understanding, then, why did you write your study that was the Main reason that caused me to have an Ignorant understanding? If you choose to abandon your Ideas that you promoted (through your article), then you are obligated to tell us why your understanding was an Ignorant understanding. Then, may be I will agree with you, or maybe I will adopt it and continue to defend.
Because this is not a game of ?follow the priest blindly?, mate. Layth never said ?people who don?t follow me are going to hell?. It?s your responsibility to keep checking the book for yourself. Never be afraid to differ.
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Salam,
I have not changed my position that Hajj is to Jerusalem and that this is spelled out in the many verses of the Quran that deal with the subject. God willing we will all meet there one day when the Temple is liberated and the pilgrimage is called to once again.
I'm not going anywhere where I need to walk around giant rocks. My religion isn't about that, sorry.
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Peace,
I don't have anything against the order and free beliefs on this site. However, the people make the FMs sectarian by calling their beliefs the "right" ones and concluding that everyone else's beliefs are "wrong". Part of Islaam involves freedom of thought and belief; nobody can be forced to believe in anything, since "there is no compulsion in religion". So, why is there so much bias against other groups, especially those who have very similar, nearly identical beliefs?
Ahmed Bilal, are you a muslim? Do you believe in ONE God? Then you have discriminated against trinitarians and mainstream hindus. Do you believe Quran teaches rituals? Then you have discriminated against people who don't.
We have choices to make in the construction of our religion. Choices imply thinking one side is right and one isn't. Why do you care who believes in what? Consider your own relationship with the Quran. Are you happy with your interpretation. THAT is what matters.
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So insulting people and saying they're wrong (even if this is true) is by definition a 'sect'? English must have changed since I awoke this morning.
Obviously you didn't read my other responses on this matter... The people make themselves sectarians because they establish limitations on the embracement of Islaam. Therefore, if someone disagrees with their view, they call this person a "kafir" (disbeliever). To refer to others who claim to be Muslims as "kafir" is completely wrong, and it's sectarian in nature.
Members of Free-minds are not expected to believe in anything. Try declaring yourself an atheist Satanist but keep on discussing peacefully, youll see theres no problem whatsoever.
Are you sure about this?! I certainly doubt it, to a high degree. In fact, as I mentioned, there are even others who consider themselves Muslims on here, who seek to remain peaceable with everyone and ask questions and learn about their individual fold of Islaam. Yet, the members of this forum won't hesitate to call them blasphemers, idolators, liars, idiots, disbelievers, rejectors, and every other foul name... So, if this is the case for those who consider themselves Muslims, then how much WORSE would it be for someone declaring himself to be a Satanist or atheist? That's pure hypocrisy...
As for Sunnism, it is NOT acceptable to pray in another language. Apologies but it appears youre unaware of the fuqaha debates on the matter. All schools agree that if you pray in another language, your prayer is null and void.
As I mentioned before, you can't group "Sunnis" into one huge fold of Islaam. There are many sects of Sunni Islaam, and they don't all agree. There are several Sunni groups that allow their members to pray in their own languages, and this happens all over the world. The only ones who declare the prayers to be "null and void" if not performed in Arabic are the Salafis, Qutbis, and Hanafis; most of the others are not opposed to a Muslim praying in English, French, Spanish, Russian, German, or whatever other language they speak...
FM is not an entity and does not tell it members anything. It has articles saying what salat is but if you dont accept it, fine. Try this experiment, go to a masjid, during fardh prayer, DONT PRAY. Or pray in the direction of Jerusalem or Petra. Then when Sunnis ask you, tell them you think qibla is there. Make you sure you know how to tumble and roll though, cause itll help cushion the blow when they throw you out.
And this wouldn't be the case if you attended a "Free-Minds mosque"?!? You would have a nearly identical experience, minus the ritualistic practices. If someone did get down to perform a salaat prostration, he would probably be thrown out violently, since the majority of the Free-Minds say that there are no rituals involved in the practice of Islaam; they say the salaat described in the Qur'aan is only metaphorical, not literal...
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Ahmed Bilal, are you a muslim? Do you believe in ONE God? Then you have discriminated against trinitarians and mainstream hindus. Do you believe Quran teaches rituals? Then you have discriminated against people who don't.
This is absurd, to say the least! Just because someone believes in ONE God does not mean they've discriminated against polytheists. I realize, from being a Muslim, that judgement is for Allah alone. Although I speak against some of their polytheistic ways (which are contrary to reason and logic), it doesn't mean I reject them as individuals, and I'd never stoop to the point of calling them "stupid", "liars", "infidels", or anything like that. I don't discriminate against people who don't believe in Qur'aanic rituals because I believe that everyone is entitled to their own understanding of the religion; Allah guides whom He chooses. So, why would I judge them by calling them "stupid" for rejecting rituals?! Allah knows what He instructed, and in the hereafter, He'll let us know the truth regarding the things in which we've been disputing...
We have choices to make in the construction of our religion. Choices imply thinking one side is right and one isn't. Why do you care who believes in what? Consider your own relationship with the Quran. Are you happy with your interpretation. THAT is what matters.
That's NOT what matters. The idea of Islaam involves both (1) total submission to Allah and (2) peace with humanity and nature. Therefore, by definition, those who are not peaceable with others are NOT Muslims... But do I feel it my duty to call them non-Muslims? No... The Qur'aan tells us not to split into sects, which means that our religion should be unified. And in this sense, we SHOULD be concerned about the actions of others claiming to be Muslims, not just ourselves and our own understanding of the scripture. Instead of allowing people to stay stuck in ignorance, you think I'm "wrong" for telling people that Allah is the best Judge and that we should uplift others instead of tear them down?
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Obviously you didn't read my other responses on this matter... ) The people make themselves sectarians because they establish limitations on the embracement of Islaam. Therefore, if someone disagrees with their view, they call this person a "kafir" (disbeliever). To refer to others who claim to be Muslims as "kafir" is completely wrong, and it's sectarian in nature.
Embracing islam? I want to see a single article on free-minds on ?how to embrace islam?. The embracing islam dance is one asked for by sunnis. You need to adopt the entire sunni culture to be one of them.
FYI, not being ?muslim? doesn?t equate to being kafir. You?re bringing in traditional islam?s mentality into it.
Are you sure about this?! I certainly doubt it, to a high degree. In fact, as I mentioned, there are even others who consider themselves Muslims on here, who seek to remain peaceable with everyone and ask questions and learn about their individual fold of Islaam. Yet, the members of this forum won't hesitate to call them blasphemers, idolators, liars, idiots, disbelievers, rejectors, and every other foul name... So, if this is the case for those who consider themselves Muslims, then how much WORSE would it be for someone declaring himself to be a Satanist or atheist? That's pure hypocrisy...
So behaviour of recalcitrant members equate to FM?s nature? Wow, I seriously wonder at your reasoning skills, sir.
As I mentioned before, you can't group "Sunnis" into one huge fold of Islaam. There are many sects of Sunni Islaam, and they don't all agree. There are several Sunni groups that allow their members to pray in their own languages, and this happens all over the world. The only ones who declare the prayers to be "null and void" if not performed in Arabic are the Salafis, Qutbis, and Hanafis; most of the others are not opposed to a Muslim praying in English, French, Spanish, Russian, German, or whatever other language they speak...
I?m quoting sunni schools of law who yes, represent the entire Sunni sharia compendium. Now kindly quote your sources. Mine is ?Sharia Islamic Law? by Abdul Rahman I. Doi.
And this wouldn't be the case if you attended a "Free-Minds mosque"?!? You would have a nearly identical experience, minus the ritualistic practices. If someone did get down to perform a salaat prostration, he would probably be thrown out violently, since the majority of the Free-Minds say that there are no rituals involved in the practice of Islaam; they say the salaat described in the Qur'aan is only metaphorical, not literal...
Haha, I doubt that. I think if FM had a masjid and I attended, I would sleep through any ritual prayer being held and still be ok. I dunno, better ask Layth P
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This is absurd, to say the least! Just because someone believes in ONE God does not mean they've discriminated against polytheists. I realize, from being a Muslim, that judgement is for Allah alone. Although I speak against some of their polytheistic ways (which are contrary to reason and logic), it doesn't mean I reject them as individuals, and I'd never stoop to the point of calling them "stupid", "liars", "infidels", or anything like that. I don't discriminate against people who don't believe in Qur'aanic rituals because I believe that everyone is entitled to their own understanding of the religion; Allah guides whom He chooses. So, why would I judge them by calling them "stupid" for rejecting rituals?! Allah knows what He instructed, and in the hereafter, He'll let us know the truth regarding the things in which we've been disputing...
Good i'm glad you noticed its absurdity because i'm adopting your line of reasoning here. FM people made their choices. SOME of them may call others such names but its against the rules.
That's NOT what matters. The idea of Islaam involves both (1) total submission to Allah and (2) peace with humanity and nature. Therefore, by definition, those who are not peaceable with others are NOT Muslims... But do I feel it my duty to call them non-Muslims? No... The Qur'aan tells us not to split into sects, which means that our religion should be unified. And in this sense, we SHOULD be concerned about the actions of others claiming to be Muslims, not just ourselves and our own understanding of the scripture. Instead of allowing people to stay stuck in ignorance, you think I'm "wrong" for telling people that Allah is the best Judge and that we should uplift others instead of tear them down?
I really don?t get this obsession with takfeer. I?ve never seen takfeer much in this forum.
I think people make choices. This does NOT constitute sectarian behaviour. Some in FM may use the K word, that?s not sanctioned by the forum.
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You should adopt a view because of your OWN research not anyone elses.
Because this is not a game of ?follow the priest blindly?, mate. Layth never said ?people who don?t follow me are going to hell?. It?s your responsibility to keep checking the book for yourself. Never be afraid to differ.
Peace,
I agree; but what made you think that I do not agree?Please understand that my intended objective of this topic is to alarm everyone of Free.minds.org new path; The path of judging between Good Understanding Vs Evil understanding of Quran. In doing so, Free-minds.org is not a Moderator of the different understandings of the Quran Aloners, rather, a Judge.
I'm not talking about all the different Articles that are posted in the Articles Section; please understand that I'm talking about the WELCOME Section that speaks about the nature of Free-Minds.org; and as I showed, The Welcome Page containes definitions of "the Good Understanding of Quran" that does not represents all of the Members...Thus, in nature, This is Sectarianism.Of course, we can all debate and call each others sectarians when disagreeing, but free-minds.org has no right to do so.
Peace
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Embracing islam? I want to see a single article on free-minds on ?how to embrace islam?. The embracing islam dance is one asked for by sunnis. You need to adopt the entire sunni culture to be one of them.
FYI, not being ?muslim? doesn?t equate to being kafir. You?re bringing in traditional islam?s mentality into it.
This is false. According to the fundamentals of Sunni Islaam, all a person has to do to be considered a "muslim" is recite the "shahaada kaliyma". Once this is done, that person is considered a Muslim, regardless of the rituals they perform or adoption of Arabic culture... And yes, calling a Muslim a "kafir" is blatant, because all Muslims seek to be removed from the group of disbelievers, those who reject Allah.
So behaviour of recalcitrant members equate to FMs nature? Wow, I seriously wonder at your reasoning skills, sir.
These members are "recalcitrant"? I already said that this is the MAJORITY of members on here, not just a stubborn minority. When the majority of a group practice wickedness, it's feasible to say that the organization as a whole (minus certain individuals) practices wickedness. That's simple logic...
Im quoting sunni schools of law who yes, represent the entire Sunni sharia compendium. Now kindly quote your sources. Mine is Sharia Islamic Law by Abdul Rahman I. Doi.
Okay... First of all, when you speak of "prayer", are you talking about "salaat" or "du'aa"? Du'aa is prayer, while salaat only involves reading from the Qur'aan. Salaat should be done in Arabic, simply because the Qur'aan is in Arabic; the only required passage is "Al Faatiha", the opening verses of the Qur'aan. Du'aa, however, can be done in a person's native language; Arabic is completely optional, since Allah knows what is in your heart and He responds to prayer. Salaat is NOT prayer, salaat is considered "worship". Du'aa is prayer, a speaking with your Creator, giving praises and asking for guidance and forgiveness... Which one are you talking about? Because it seems like you're confusing "salaat" with "du'aa"...
Haha, I doubt that. I think if FM had a masjid and I attended, I would sleep through any ritual prayer being held and still be ok. I dunno, better ask Layth
You can believe that if you want, but I seriously doubt it. If they caught you performing ritual salaat, they'd probably vote to have you hanged or killed by firing squad... laugh At the least, though, they'd throw you out of their mosque, claiming that you've succumbed to Sunnism and rejected "true Islaam", which is nothing more than their understanding of it.
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Okay... First of all, when you speak of "prayer", are you talking about "salaat" or "du'aa"? Du'aa is prayer, while salaat only involves reading from the Qur'aan. Salaat should be done in Arabic, simply because the Qur'aan is in Arabic; the only required passage is "Al Faatiha", the opening verses of the Qur'aan. Du'aa, however, can be done in a person's native language; Arabic is completely optional, since Allah knows what is in your heart and He responds to prayer. Salaat is NOT prayer, salaat is considered "worship". Du'aa is prayer, a speaking with your Creator, giving praises and asking for guidance and forgiveness... Which one are you talking about? Because it seems like you're confusing "salaat" with "du'aa"...
Peace
One of many meanings of "salaat" is "Prayer/supplication".Regards
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One of many meanings of "salaat" is "Prayer/supplication".
I think that's a bad translation of "salaat". A more appropriate translation of it is worship, contact, connection, or even commitment... The idea of "du'aa" in Islaam always refers to prayers to Allah...
