The concept of "Sin"
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The concept of sin.
It?s interesting when you meet people from all over, a whole new bag of perspectives open up. So, one of them was ?sin?. The question is what is a sin? And does it exist in the concept of AlQuran?. I was told it seems illogical, it makes Allah sound emotional.
So here is my thought.
How can sin not exist if
God is the tawab alraheem (416), ghafoor alraheem (221, arhama rahameen (7151) etc
why would God need to be merciful, forgiving, kind etc if sin doesn?t exist?
This verse seems to indicate a strong vindication of sin
(431)
431 (Asad) If you avoid the great sins, which you have been enjoined to shun, We shall efface your bad deeds, and shall cause you to enter an abode of glory.
The Arabic term Saye?aat is known as sin, something harmful, something bad, doing something bad/evil. This verses uses ?saye?aatikoum? - you?re sins possibly.
Siin-Waw-Alif = to treat badly, do evil to disgrace, be evil/wicked/vicious, ill, anything that makes a person sad and sorrowful, bad action, mischief and corruption, sin, evil doer, wretched or grievous, vex, annoy. su'atun (pl. suat) - corpse, external portion of both sexes, shame.
Also why would God reduce/remove our saye?aat? If a sin was none existent then how can God remove/reduce our bad deeds?
How about this verse
(5332)
? 5332 (Asad) As for those who avoid the grave sins and shameful deeds - even though they may some times stumble behold, thy Sustainer is abounding in forgiveness. He is fully aware of you when He brings you into being out of dust, and when you are still hidden in your mothers? wombs do not, then, consider your selves pure - He knows best as to who is conscious of Him.The verse above indicates an ?itham? so does ithm equate to a sin??
Alif-Tha-Miim = to commit a crime/sin or lie. ithm - sin, crime, guilt, iniquity, lie, anything that hinders from good deeds, harmful, anything which renders a person deserving of punishment, anything that pricks the mind as something evil, unlawful. athaam - punishment of wickedness, the requital. aathim - evil doer, one who sins. athiim - wicked person. taa'thiim - accusation of crime.
Seems like it.
Also none of us are pure?? ?fala tazakou anfousikom ? don?t make yourself more than what you are?? So we aint free from flaws..
This verse indicates a type of itham 448
(44
? 448 (Asad) VERILY, God does not forgive the ascribing of divinity to aught beside Him, although He forgives any lesser sin unto whomever He wills for he who ascribes divinity to aught beside God has indeed contrived an awesome sin.
Also
(4116)? 4116 (Asad) VERILY, God does not forgive the ascribing of divinity to aught beside Him, although He forgives any lesser sin unto whomever He wills for those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God have indeed gone far astray
So shirk is a big itham and God forgives all except that.
fahsha and shirk appear to be the big ithm or sins, is there anything else anyone can see?
After all our doings is for jannah (282) what would be the point of building up hasanat for no avail? But wait there is an avail a hasanat gets 10 times the reward or double (440, 6160) but a sin is just 1...
So does it make Allah emotional?
Our deeds are in our part to benefit or not, 997-8. It?s for us to hold, if our destiny/goal is jannah how are we to be tested for it? Through `amal(deeds) right?
why would that make Allah emotional? Is it because God can be forgiving but also punish?
This analogy came to me when I was thinking is Allah emotional? Is that logical? I dunno what to say to that but this is what I was thinking
Is a tutor emotional if s/he fails a student because they don?t meet the criteria? I?d say no.
Is a tutor emotional for providing a secondary exam because the course provides the opportunity for the student to amend and make the grades? Does it make the tutor emotional?
I wouldn?t think so, it?s just a criteria. Just like Allah has the attribute of forgiveness if we seek it because Allah has given us the criteria we just have to accept and follow it.
So this knowledge leaves me with a couple of thoughts
- What is alfahsha
- What is a alhasana
-Where does ma`roof and munkar come in
So who of you thinks the concept of sin doesn't exist? And who thinks it does
Share your thoughts,
Salam )
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Good topic, Sarah. I think we need to be careful to distinguish between "Sin" and "Original Sin" which is what many westernized believers automatically assume is implied in the very concept of sin.
Islam affirms the fall of man and consequently man's sinful nature, but not inherited bad deeds. This is subtle, but important. Were the young children of Lot's town also slaughtered by Allah along with the homosexuals? Yes. So something of the sinful nature of our ancestors is inherited and judged, but in no way are we responsible on Judgment Day for Adam's choice.
Schuon writes that the starting point for Christian religion is "Sin" (man, the sinner, needs a savior); whereas the starting point for Islam is purely the relationship between God as such and man as such.
You must be sensing these layers of implied meaning from other people.
What's wrong with Allah being emotional? Allah is emotional. He gets angry with people, He loves the patient. And the Qur'an is clearly an emotive book, not some sterile piece of existential philosophy. But Allah has none of the weakness associated with emotion. His wisdom and logic infinitely transcend His feelings.
Of course this is Allah, the personal God, partially descended into Relativity and adapted to a particular human collectivity. The Pure Absolute has no personality.
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Very interesting topic; one which I often think about.
As allegorical as the quran is, I view God's 'emotions' in the same vein. Allah being 'angry' with an act or 'loving' an act is mere symbolism for discord/harmony in one's actions vis a vis the moral laws Allah has imbued us with. The law of requital. My actions/thoughts/deeds, good or bad, affect my Self, good or bad. Positive actions elevate my Self, akin to working out or eating well and thereby benefitting the physical body. Negative actions denigrate and stain my Self, burdening it and lowering it.
Acknowledging those negative actions, and correcting them, reverse the the negative staining process (taubah) and result in my Self's 'forgiveness.' Hardly a divine dictator who metaphorically bangs his gavel and deems me forgiven; rather, the laws created by the creator 'judge' me into a positive or negative state, depending on the relevant action.
If I hold a candle to my hand, and burn it, can I direct anger at Allah who undoubtedly created the physical law that dictates said candle burning my hand? Hardly. Along the same line of thought, merely asking for my hand to heal from Allah won't heal it; rather, I have to obey other laws Allah has created (e.g. the law that a certain herb soothes and repairs my burnt skin) in order to 'forgive' my past transgression of the fire-burns-flesh law. Similarly, if I commit a negative moral action, thereby staining my Self, I cannot simply ask Allah for forgiveness; the way I 'ask' Allah for forgiveness is by obeying the moral laws he has imbued the universe with.
I don't know if you've read G.A. Parwez's Islam A Challenge to Religion. If you haven't, I highly recommend it. The book is online for free; here's one chapter that is relevant to the topic at hand http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR_9.htm
Peace.
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Interesting topic... As we know Christians and traditional Muslims are obsessed with the concept of sin, Christians with original sin and traditionals with the good deeds vs bad deeds balance. AFAIK the Qur'an did hint of such a balance, but not taken into the extremes of traditional thinking (you know, all the hadith-based concepts on 'deeds accounting' such as doing salat or reading Qur'an at certain times or days to get extra points).
I'm watching this discussion. Do continue.
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you know, all the hadith-based concepts on 'deeds accounting' such as doing salat or reading Qur'an at certain times or days to get extra points).
I'm watching this discussion. Do continue.
It does not really make sense to me to pray on certain times for extra points.
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Peace all,
I don?t believe the Quran even mentions ?original sin?. I guess some westerners may assume sin with original sin but thank God for the Quran! To clear up stuff like that. No way would deeds be inherited, can you imagine it would be like, before we get a good deed we?d need to compensate all the bad.
But the thing is, is a sin or a good deed like a chart of ticks and crosses?
The perspective of a saviour makes me think that people think they are innately evil.
I always would have thought people are just innately good, well I?d like to but then I think well maybe we?re just innately ?nothing?. I know I know it sounds weird maybe ridiculous but we are what we form, we gain the good and we gain the bad it?s up to us to stack up the good and be good deed-ers or bad/evil deed people..
These verses 3218-20 kinda made me think of that.
Anyway Allah being emotional? It?s hard to say if i agree or not, my lack of knowledge makes me fearful of making a claim i?m not sure about. I mean such attributes might be taken in that way but i haven?t looked too deeply. I would need to study about what is Allah, all I can say is ?wa lam yakon lahu kufwan ahadan? 1124.
Interesting perception Cavemandoctor. Thing is those actions are for our own deeds why would God feel ?emotions?. Guess it depends how you view God. Some have the ideology that God is within.
Acknowledging those negative actions, and correcting them, reverse the the negative staining process (taubah) and result in my Self's 'forgiveness.'
Totally agree.
Ok so basically the laws of nature and how they flow make you either a sinner or a good doer based on how you follow them, kinda thing..
So would you say sin is metaphoric? If sin is metaphoric in the sense that you don?t get an x next to your name but you may I dunno deal with suffering or guilt or something. Then what is jannah? A life of pleasure on earth due to good deeds?
Actually why not, why can you not ask for Allah for forgiveness, why not do both, amend your ways (cure the problem) and ask for forgiveness? If you can?t ask on God why would we need to call on God? Read 2186 and 17110
i was thinking along your thoughts this verse came up
4110 (Asad) Yet he who does evil or sins against himself, and thereafter prays God to forgive him, shall find God much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace
So the words used for ?prays God to forgive? is yastaghfiri Allaha...
Gh-Fa-Ra = protect, cover over, hide, shield, helmet, forgive, pardon, to ask for protection/forgiveness.
It could be that by requited actions God forgives us. But i don?t think the calling upon God should be totally debunked.
Ok I just read the chapter, probably should have read it before i started replying. anyway interesting how he brings in other ideologies of salvation.
I like the points in which he mentions ?islam discourages man?s preoccupation with the past; instead it fosters hope in the future? and also ?the purpose of islam is the reorientation of man to life, so that he may wake up to the immense potentialities inherent in him?. It made me think of the verse dying in the state of belief (3102). Why should we die in a state of belief if his ideologies of hell and paradise are within our world? What do you think of that?
Do you agree that jannah/jahanam are a state of mind?
He mentions tawba right but i kinda felt 417 indicates a sin/bad deed/something harmful done intentionally is beheld. I guess if the action is completely repelled never to be done and one amends ways in the path of God, God is most forgiving.. but what do you think of the verse do you think its just for people who intentionally cause mischief or something else.
It does not really make sense to me to pray on certain times for extra points.
it's just an ideology based on scholarly opinion. you do good you get extra good points, prayer is seen as a good deed.
Peace
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But the thing is, is a sin or a good deed like a chart of ticks and crosses?
The perspective of a saviour makes me think that people think they are innately evil.
I always would have thought people are just innately good, well I?d like to but then I think well maybe we?re just innately ?nothing?. I know I know it sounds weird maybe ridiculous but we are what we form, we gain the good and we gain the bad it?s up to us to stack up the good and be good deed-ers or bad/evil deed people..
I have heard imams use the analogy of a bank account, which is the same idea as your chart. There's nothing wrong with that view since it motivates a sincere person to right action. And the symbol of the scales on Judgment Day is all over the Qur'an. The better motivation to do right however is pure and simple taqwa - God awareness, heedfulness, and fear/reverence.
The Qur'an tells you what people innately are not good or bad, but fallen and lost. See AQ 95.4-6 and of course, the story of Adam and Eve. People are innately in need of God. The Guidance itself is our "savior" in Islam.
I think all these rewards games are for teaching children and average believers who just want to avoid Hell.
Anyway Allah being emotional? It?s hard to say if i agree or not, my lack of knowledge makes me fearful of making a claim i?m not sure about. I mean such attributes might be taken in that way but i haven?t looked too deeply. I would need to study about what is Allah, all I can say is ?wa lam yakon lahu kufwan ahadan? 1124.
Allah is al-wadud, al-muntaqim. Maybe we shouldn't say Allah is "emotional" with all the overtones of that word, but rather say He is capable of emotion.
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So would you say sin is metaphoric? If sin is metaphoric in the sense that you don?t get an x next to your name but you may I dunno deal with suffering or guilt or something. Then what is jannah? A life of pleasure on earth due to good deeds?
I wouldn't say sin is metaphoric, meaning it's not merely the residual effects of suffering/guilt. It is a very real thing. Our actions leave indelible marks on our Self, our personality. We find these concepts in our everyday language; you hear people say "she has a strong character" or "he's such a weak person." Why is such a person strong or weak? It is through an accumulation of actions/deeds.
Jannah/jahannam are also very real things; they are not just contained here on earth. There is a life after this life; how we exist on through that life depends on what we have done to our Selves. If we have strengthened our Self, upon death, we will reap the benefits of such strengthening, constantly evolving and moving onto higher planes of existence. What does that mean exactly? I don't know (does anyone know?). What I am fairly confident in is that the imagery used in the quran to denote jannah/jahannam is mere symbolism. I don't think these are actual physical places that our souls travel to. In that sense, they are post-life 'mindstates' or 'soulstates.' Doesn't mean they are any less real, of course.
Actually why not, why can you not ask for Allah for forgiveness, why not do both, amend your ways (cure the problem) and ask for forgiveness? If you can?t ask on God why would we need to call on God? Read 2186 and 17110
i was thinking along your thoughts this verse came up
4110 (Asad) Yet he who does evil or sins against himself, and thereafter prays God to forgive him, shall find God much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace
So the words used for ?prays God to forgive? is yastaghfiri Allaha...
It could be that by requited actions God forgives us. But i don?t think the calling upon God should be totally debunked.
I didn't mean to imply that calling upon God should be totally debunked. I apologize. My point was that merely calling upon God is not enough. We can and should call upon God to give us strength to overcome our negative actions, to correct ourselves and to proceed positively. Merely invoking God's name and standing idly by is hardly enough, though. God gives us the strength to live this life correctly but we still have to go out there and.....live this life correctly. To use an analogy, we can ask God for the armor and the sword, but that's not enough. We must still go out there on the moral battlefield and use said God-provided armor and sword. To use another analogy, we can ask God for the weights and treadmills we need to strengthen ourselves, but that's not enough; we still have to lift the weights, we still have to run on the treadmills, in order to reap the benefits.
This is not unlike the salat debate we often discuss on this board. I am of the opinion that 'salat' means 'commitment' and not simply 'contact' but both meanings can be related. Through our upholding and reminding (dhikr) our selves of our commitments, we strengthen our selves. Through our 'contact' with God, through calling upon God, we are reminded of our commitments, we strive to remember God, remember His instructions to us (quran), use those instructions to overcome our negative actions and practice correct ones. These are all interrelated, and are all signs of God's grace to us.
The quran is not a book of inaction, of empty rituals. It spurs us into action. It asks us to think, to strive, to remember, to study, to question, to act concretely and practically.
Ok I just read the chapter, probably should have read it before i started replying. anyway interesting how he brings in other ideologies of salvation.
I like the points in which he mentions ?islam discourages man?s preoccupation with the past; instead it fosters hope in the future? and also ?the purpose of islam is the reorientation of man to life, so that he may wake up to the immense potentialities inherent in him?. It made me think of the verse dying in the state of belief (3102). Why should we die in a state of belief if his ideologies of hell and paradise are within our world? What do you think of that?
Do you agree that jannah/jahanam are a state of mind?
He mentions tawba right but i kinda felt 417 indicates a sin/bad deed/something harmful done intentionally is beheld. I guess if the action is completely repelled never to be done and one amends ways in the path of God, God is most forgiving.. but what do you think of the verse do you think its just for people who intentionally cause mischief or something else.
it's just an ideology based on scholarly opinion. you do good you get extra good points, prayer is seen as a good deed.
Peace
That chapter I showed you may have been slightly misleading; if you read the rest of the book, you'll realize that the author does not promote the ideology of hell/paradise being within our world alone. Rather, he merely echoes what the quran repeatedly states that we can make our earthly societies prosperous as well as our permanent Selves prosperous (in this life, and after death).
416-18, I think, beautifully elucidate these concepts. Those verses indicate that repentance is a series of actions. 416 mentions "repent and reform." 417-18 discuss the fact that action is required after the sin is committed. 418 is explicit on this fact one cannot simply say "Ok now I repent, God" when death has come upon them. Not only would doing so show a lack of sincerity but, practically speaking, it would show a lack of action. How can you repent when death approaches when you've given yourself no time to reverse your actions, to stop the staining process, and to engage in the positive self-strengthening process?
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I wouldn't say sin is metaphoric, meaning it's not merely the residual effects of suffering/guilt. It is a very real thing. Our actions leave indelible marks on our Self, our personality. We find these concepts in our everyday language; you hear people say "she has a strong character" or "he's such a weak person." Why is such a person strong or weak? It is through an accumulation of actions/deeds.
Thanks for the clarity. I think it's a very real thing. Also it does affect us which will affect our hereafter.
If we have strengthened our Self, upon death, we will reap the benefits of such strengthening, constantly evolving and moving onto higher planes of existence. What does that mean exactly? I don't know (does anyone know?).
People have theories i?m not certain.
I didn't mean to imply that calling upon God should be totally debunked. I apologize. My point was that merely calling upon God is not enough.
Ah ok, off course, Islam is known as the deen al`aml; the system/religion of deeds/actions. Even traditionalists will be on the same viewpoint.
Actually, this reminds me of an Arabic saying
. (ي
(Or slangly in leb it?s said bida natta, it needs a jump)The saying is a fox heard that God provides/gives blessings to the one asleep, sitting down or laying on his side. So the fox decides to sleep, sit and lay on his side and sees all these chickens walking around him. The next day does the same then he decides to jump and break one of the chicken?s necks to eat. Then the fox says it is true God provides for those who are sitting, asleep and on their side but it needs a jump.
So basically in other words as you are saying, you can do nothing and asks for God but for a result it needs action, it needs a jump.
The salat debate.. such a contested topic. I need to study more on this. True contact and commitment can be interrelated.
Do you think rituals are empty? I think they could have their purpose but I understand you mean Quran promotes the action the deeds and understanding them reflecting, studying, striving to betterment etc.
ok i probably should have read the whole book it seems interesting, i still have to catch up on other readings, but i will look into it inshallah. Thanks for sharing )
So in ways it seems we can repent and come off as a clean ?blank? state. Yeh, when death comes, it?s too late. Death is inevitable and unknown. so i guess it makes one aspire to amend ways always, continuously before off course it?s too late.
Abdullah_m, I always kinda pictured it as a chart of x and ticks.. I guess it?s kinda childish lol but it is a motivator. Taqwa plays a part as does dhikr.
It?s our desire that takes us to good or bad. Desire seems to be a big deal.
Yes the Quran could be seen as our saviour but actually we are not in need of a ?saviour? because we are not born with sin. Following the guidance makes us tawabeen; repent and turning back to what is alhaqq when we do mistakes but also it makes us mumineen and helps us strive to be better )
Allah is al-wadud, al-muntaqim. Maybe we shouldn't say Allah is "emotional" with all the overtones of that word, but rather say He is capable of emotion.
Possibly
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To me sin is a 'mistake', 'negligence' an 'imperfection'...
Many times Quran address human being as "Al-Nas" or "The Negligent". "Hear ye negligence being!" occurs many time in the Quran.
God knows very well we're by nature and design are 'negligent' that's why He provides His mercy to forgive our shortcoming.
In order for us to obtain His mercy and forgiveness, we ourselves has to perform the same act towards other 'negligence being'...
The above is one of the most important 'law' to always be in our remembrance..As an infamous Jewish reformer once said
"Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us."
"You will be judged by the same standard you use to judge others. The standards you use for others will be applied to you."Salam / Peace
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The Quran promotes the forgiveness of others
3134 (Asad) who spend in time of plenty and in time of hardship, and hold in check their anger, and pardon their fellow-men because God loves the doers of good;
4149 (Asad) whether you do good openly or in secret, or pardonothers for evil for, behold, God is indeed an absolver of sins, infinite in His power.
6414 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! Behold, some of your spouses and your children are enemies unto you so beware of them! But if you pardon and forbear, and forgive-then, behold, God will be much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
2263 (Asad) A kind word and the veiling of another's want is better than a charitable deed followed by hurt; and God is self-sufficient, forbearing
Jafar You think "nas" equates as negligent? What?s the Arabic word for ?the negligent??
God knows our desire can stir us to good or bad, so desire the good. Besides we are weak (42 so i guess it may be easier to desire what is not good for us. Even Quran tells us we may love a thing which is bad for us or hate a thing which is good for us (2216)
About desire
2543 (Asad) Hast thou ever considered who makes his own desires his deity? Couldst thou, then, be held responsible for him?
3329 (Asad) but if you desire God and His Apostle, and the life in the hereafter, then , verily, for the doers of good among you God has readied a mighty reward!?
3510 (Asad) He who desires might and glory all might and glory belong to God . Unto Him ascend all good words, and the righteous deed does He exalt. But as for those who cunningly devise evil deeds - suffering severe awaits them; and all their devising is bound to come to nought
The word desire is used to compensate the words shahwa and arada (turidna).
ha-Waw-Ya = to fall steep as a bird to its prey, rev, perish, pull down, destroy, disappear, yearn, fancy, beguile, infatuate, be blown, inspire with low passion, desires/fancies.
Ra-Waw-Dal = to seek, ask a thing gently, search (for food), go to and fro in a pasture, go round about. iradatun - will, free will. mirwad - axle of a pully. rawada - to long after, desire, seduce, entice, seduce against the will (with 'an) as in 12126. yuridu - he wishes, intends. It is used as an auxiliary verb as in 1877. The word iradah is used for power and capacity with reference to subjugation as well as to option and choice. ruwaidan - for a little while, go gently (according to some grammarians the word is a diminutive form of which verbal noun is not in use, it is used as sing. plu. f. m.).
To me shahwa is like a bad thing a desire you?d stoop to whereas irada is, a wish, a want. But it can go both ways as in, a wish for bad or a wish for good. Though I see irada as driven by thoughts/rational not entirely desire whereas shahwa totally desire.
I believe our shahwa or irada is what drives us to good or towards bad; to siye?a or to hasana.
Peace
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Just for contrast, I would like to add the Buddhist perspective, which starts with the concept of suffering.
The four noble truths
Suffering is inevitable in the world due to its transient nature.
The cause of suffering is ignorant clinging to transitory phenomena.
Suffering can be reduced.
The Eightfold Path is how to reduce it.Now the interesting thing to me is how sin is primarily all about me and what I've done wrong and how I'll be punished, while suffering takes into consideration the harm that my sin causes other beings.
Can you see the difference?
Of course, reducing sin also reduces suffering, but there is something slightly more elevated about the perspective of suffering/karma than sin, although they work the same transformation on the soul.
Certain groups of people may be more responsive to one or the other.
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Peace,
So this knowledge leaves me with a couple of thoughts
- What is alfahsha
- What is a alhasana
-Where does ma`roof and munkar come in
"al fahisha" = immoderateness/foulness/something that transgresses beyond limits/excessiveness
"al munkar" = violating good values/vice (opposite of "ma'roof"
"al ma'roof" = kindness/righteousness (opposite of "munkar""al sayiaat" = inequity/evil deed (opposite of "hasanat"
"al hasanat" = something which creates a balance/something that benefits others/good deed (opposite of "sayyiat""ithm" = harm, something that brings down the human self
I think that there is no concept of "sin" according to The Reading, as there is in the Catholic Church. "Sin" implies/can imply that the bad deed only goes against oneself, whereas the terms useed in The Reading are more about harming others, but also oneself. Also, concerning the concept of forgieveness... I need to look that up a bit. I think that God does forgive, since he is "raheemun" (clement/merciful/compassionate) and "afwuwun" (pardoning/overlooking of imperfections/bad deeds). However, we shouldnt forget the following
11114 ...Inna alhasanati yuthhibna alssayyi-ati thalika thikra lil-ththakireena
11114 ...Cetainly, actions that creat a balance in society/good deeds take away the ill effects of inequiteies/bad deeds. This is a reminder for those who remember.
586 The day when God resurrects them all, then He informs them of what they had done. God has recorded it, while they have forgotten it. God witnesses all things.
2884 Whoever comes forth with a good deed (hasanat), he will receive a better reward. Whoever comes forth with a bad deed (sayyiat) then the retribution for their bad deeds will be to the extent of their deeds.
996 On that day, the people will be brought out in throngs to be shown their works.
997 So whoever does an atom?s weight of good (khayran) will see it.
998 Whoever does an atom?s weight of evil (sharran) will see it.3953 Say, "O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of God's mercy/compassion ("rahma". For God "yaghfiru" all misdeeds. He is "al ghafooru", the compassionate/clement ("al raheemu".
Gh-Fa-Ra = protect, cover over, hide, shield, helmet, forgive, pardon, to ask for protection/forgiveness.
You might want to read this post by Arnold Yasin Mol, which is about the concept of "sin", "forgiveness", etc.
One should commit good deeds that benefit others in order to balance out the bad deeds that one has done, rather than just asking for forgiveness and thinking that it is enough.
654 If those who acknowledge Our signs come to you, then say, "Peace be upon you, our Lord has decreed mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits a bad deed out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and reforms/ammends, then He is forgiving, compassionate."
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Very interesting topic; one which I often think about.
As allegorical as the quran is, I view God's 'emotions' in the same vein. Allah being 'angry' with an act or 'loving' an act is mere symbolism for discord/harmony in one's actions vis a vis the moral laws Allah has imbued us with. The law of requital. My actions/thoughts/deeds, good or bad, affect my Self, good or bad. Positive actions elevate my Self, akin to working out or eating well and thereby benefitting the physical body. Negative actions denigrate and stain my Self, burdening it and lowering it.
Acknowledging those negative actions, and correcting them, reverse the the negative staining process (taubah) and result in my Self's 'forgiveness.' Hardly a divine dictator who metaphorically bangs his gavel and deems me forgiven; rather, the laws created by the creator 'judge' me into a positive or negative state, depending on the relevant action.
If I hold a candle to my hand, and burn it, can I direct anger at Allah who undoubtedly created the physical law that dictates said candle burning my hand? Hardly. Along the same line of thought, merely asking for my hand to heal from Allah won't heal it; rather, I have to obey other laws Allah has created (e.g. the law that a certain herb soothes and repairs my burnt skin) in order to 'forgive' my past transgression of the fire-burns-flesh law. Similarly, if I commit a negative moral action, thereby staining my Self, I cannot simply ask Allah for forgiveness; the way I 'ask' Allah for forgiveness is by obeying the moral laws he has imbued the universe with.
I don't know if you've read G.A. Parwez's Islam A Challenge to Religion. If you haven't, I highly recommend it. The book is online for free; here's one chapter that is relevant to the topic at hand http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR_9.htm
Peace.
Well said. I agree.
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Abdullah_m
I think Quranically sin can cause harm against us and others. I mean it all depends on what the sin is..
Dunno too much about karma or Buddhist. But generally in life it?s a cause and effect. You eat too much you get fat and that?s the saye2a on us. Doesn?t really harm anyone except ourselves. A different example call someone by a bad name it harms another?s feelings and well it?s bad on us because well many reasons.. it depends why name call but i guess it shows intolerance.
I think i know what you mean, are you trying to make me visualise ?sin? differently? Like not necessarily an x next to my name or a black dot on the heart as traditionalists would think of it but rather something that causes/harm and suffering and by avoiding it less suffering/bad out comes happen. Or by doing good we remove lessen the bad/suffering.
Progressive1993
i agree i don?t believe the Quranic concept is the same to Christian or Catholic church. The Quran uses different words to associate with all things ?bad? which are to be avoided which harm us and others.
I think they (fahisha, munkar, sayiat) can be categorised as thanoob (faults, wrong deeds, sins?)
At least fahisha, and oppressing our self is under this ?thanoob?
? 3135 (Asad) and who, when they have committed a shameful deed (fahisha) or have sinned against themselves (zalamu unfusahom), remember God and pray that their sins be forgiven - for who but God could forgive sins? - and do not knowingly persist in doing whatever they may have done.
Verse 3953 makes me think all the other bad/harms can be associated with thanoob.
3953 (Asad) SAY ? ?O you servants of Mine who have transgressed against your own selves! Despair not of God?s mercy behold, God forgives all sins (Allah yaghfiru althunooba jami`an) - for, verily, He alone is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!? ?
Thanks for the link, i?ll look into it later inshallah.
One should commit good deeds that benefit others in order to balance out the bad deeds that one has done, rather than just asking for forgiveness and thinking that it is enough.
sure off course, read this verse
495 (Asad) SUCH of the believers as remain passive - other than the disabled - cannot be deemed equal to those who strive hard in God's cause with their possessions and their lives God has exalted those who strive hard with their possessions and their lives far above those who remain passive. Although God has promised the ultimate good unto all , yet has God exalted those who strive hard above those who remain passive by a mighty reward -
Also another thought
4521 (Asad) Now as for those who indulge in sinful doings (saye
ati) - do they think that We place them, both in their life and their death, on an equalfooting with those who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds? (amlaou salihati) Bad, indeed, is their judgmentA person who does ?amal salih is better than one who does saye?at but we can amend our ways, as you have mentioned. Ultimately the good deed is to our benefit.
Peace.
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sin is sthing thats confusing me a bit at this point in time....are there some sins that God cant/wont forgive? shirk..understood God has said wont be forgiven if the person hasnt repented and reformed in this life..but wat abt murdering someone? or raping?
the punishment for murdering is upto the family of the one who was murdered according to the quran...seems fair to me...does that mean that those sins which end up hurting other humans cannot be forgiven by God, that the person who has been wronged has to hv a say in it? if God forbid i get raped or murdered then do I hv a say inhow the person would be punished? it seems unfair if God just forgives the murderer/rapist...for other sins (those that dont hurt others) i think it makes sense to repent and reform God may forgive if u mean it. but there are clear worldy punishments for rapists and murderers, and the wronged ppl hv a say in how the person should be punished....so does tht mean that God cant forgive sins which hurt other humans apart from ourselves?
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Peace sis,
We can?t play God and say this and that will happen, this person is forgiven that person isn?t.
3129 (Asad) whereas unto God belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth He forgives whom He wills, and He chastises whom He wills; and God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace
Quran implores asking of forgiveness and turning back to good. That being said a person doesn?t automatically become forgiven. This is unknown at least one would live on that hope that they are forgiven based on God?s trust.
3135 (Asad) and who, when they have committed a shameful deed or have sinned against themselves, remember God and pray that their sins be forgiven - for who but God could forgive sins? - and do not knowingly persist in doing whatever they may have done.
the word thanb (thanubakom) is used for example in verse.
331 (Asad) Say "If you love God, follow me, God will love you and forgive you your sins; for God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace."
Are all acts of ?sin? considered thanb? What acts of forgiveness are given are all words used? I know i?ve seen fahisha used not sure about others, needs to be looked up.
Also God makes a CLEAR distinction between people who do evil and good. People who continue to intentionally sin and people who turn back or are God conscious
3828 (Asad) would We treat those who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds in the same manner as those who spread corruption on earth? Would We treat the God-conscious inthe same manner as the wicked?
Just because all acts are forgiven except shirk it doesn?t open the door for sinning. nor does it make you = to a person who hasnt transgressed. e.g. person does an unrighteous deed, seeks forgiveness, that's between them and God not the man/women and the rest of the world in rank. As what makes us better than one another? our God consciousness. you and I can't measure that.
A believer is one who will amend mistakes do wrong and turn back to god/good. Otherwise they become a munafiq, a hypocrite. And that?s a detested identity. There?s a whole chapter on munafiqun 63.
I don?t recall reading if a person is raped killed only their family can seek forgiveness on the soul.. What if their family is unaware? what if the family transgress their authority?
In the hereafter is not God the most fair ultimate judge?
Peace
P.S Rizona we've read your thread, might be more appropriate to leave it there or share it on salat thread, this isn't about salat
peace.