Can a Husband Drink His Wife's...
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peace Joe, all,
I do not think that verse can be used or extrapolated to mean mother's milk is not for anyone but children (their own or otherwise). The verse AND its context is clearly discussing rights/responsibilities/guidance in such situations. I would have to see solid evidence showing that such verses can be used/extrapolated in this way, to convince me otherwise. The only way that verse could be used would be to say, that after 2 years it would be ok for others to have some milk, but not before.
From my studies, it is quite clear, that if something is not explicitly forbidden, either by verse or by application of cross-referencing /logic/reason etc, then it is allowed. The only obvious thing to point out is that it is not a right for anyone else to demand such a thing, nor deprive the child of it, and must be by way of mutual consent, like every decision amongst couples in The Quran .
Questions like these often gain attention and interest, and some strange answers, but that is primarily because people do not appreciate the reasoning, flexibility and limits inherent in The Quran. This is the much under rated "hikma" component of the book.
Well, i guess there will always be the difference of two peoples thoughts.
I think my stance is the most logical.
You think your stance is the Logical one...
Perhaps it wil just be that way.To me Personally, I think there is enough Logic and Proof to believe Breast-milk is only for babies.
If you wanna keep debating it...we can. Or if you want to just leave it at the we can too.Id like to add, that Naturally...THERE IS NO reason whatsoever for an Adult to drink Breast-milk.
Id like to also add that Naturally, The ONLY INTENDED Purpose of Breast-milk is Obviously for an Infant, and it is ONLY when an Infant is being born that Breast-Milk gets Produced in the breasts.Since the Infant does not have teeth, or will only have Little teeth at/up to 2years old...
It makes sense that it is for him (the baby). The Soft Tissue of the Breast is made to be suckled by an Infant. (obliviously).The Milk that is there is made for the baby since he cannot eat or drink other forms of food.
If we were now to Establish the Fact that Breat-Milk is Intened for Infants...
and then Look at the Verse Giving a Specific Age when to stop...(2 years old)....
Why would Allah be so Specific? Why would He Specifically say 2 years old if it didnt matter?If I were to say, "Drink Alcohol at 21 years old."... you'd you then assume, its okay to drink at 13? 2 years old is a SPECIFIC AGE.
Allah Gives two Specific Ages in the Quran that I know about...(there may be more)
2 years old.....and 40 years old. One being the age of Suckling/stopping... the other age of Maturity.
Thus we can infer if Allah gives a Specific Age...It is significant.Now, If I am a Man who has a need. I need Milk. and there are Two Sources to get this Milk...Where would I get it?
- Breast-Milk.....BUT The Age to stop drinking is 2 years old...I am now 20. therefore I have now exceeded the age of 2 years old. So this option is out.
2)Cattle-Milk.... It is said in the Quran that we (Humans) drink this milk. Since there is no Age attached to this Ayat...I would Infer that it is probably any Age or rather Any age ABOVE 2.
Does this Not Seem like a Logical/Rational Conclusion?
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Well, i guess there will always be the difference of two peoples thoughts.
I think my stance is the most logical.
You think your stance is the Logical one...
Perhaps it wil just be that way.To me Personally, I think there is enough Logic and Proof to believe Breast-milk is only for babies.
If you wanna keep debating it...we can. Or if you want to just leave it at the we can too.Id like to add, that Naturally...THERE IS NO reason whatsoever for an Adult to drink Breast-milk.
Id like to also add that Naturally, The ONLY INTENDED Purpose of Breast-milk is Obviously for an Infant, and it is ONLY when an Infant is being born that Breast-Milk gets Produced in the breasts.Since the Infant does not have teeth, or will only have Little teeth at/up to 2years old...
It makes sense that it is for him (the baby). The Soft Tissue of the Breast is made to be suckled by an Infant. (obliviously).The Milk that is there is made for the baby since he cannot eat or drink other forms of food.
If we were now to Establish the Fact that Breat-Milk is Intened for Infants...
and then Look at the Verse Giving a Specific Age when to stop...(2 years old)....
Why would Allah be so Specific? Why would He Specifically say 2 years old if it didnt matter?If I were to say, "Drink Alcohol at 21 years old."... you'd you then assume, its okay to drink at 13? 2 years old is a SPECIFIC AGE.
Allah Gives two Specific Ages in the Quran that I know about...(there may be more)
2 years old.....and 40 years old. One being the age of Suckling/stopping... the other age of Maturity.
Thus we can infer if Allah gives a Specific Age...It is significant.Now, If I am a Man who has a need. I need Milk. and there are Two Sources to get this Milk...Where would I get it?
- Breast-Milk.....BUT The Age to stop drinking is 2 years old...I am now 20. therefore I have now exceeded the age of 2 years old. So this option is out.
2)Cattle-Milk.... It is said in the Quran that we (Humans) drink this milk. Since there is no Age attached to this Ayat...I would Infer that it is probably any Age or rather Any age ABOVE 2.
Does this Not Seem like a Logical/Rational Conclusion?
I would think that up to 2 years there's a great benefit to the baby/toddler to have the breastmilk.
But does it mean that the mom must stop precisely at 2 years? I didn't wean my youngest until she was a few months over 2 years old.
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Well, i guess there will always be the difference of two peoples thoughts.
I think my stance is the most logical.
You think your stance is the Logical one...
Perhaps it wil just be that way.To me Personally, I think there is enough Logic and Proof to believe Breast-milk is only for babies.
If you wanna keep debating it...we can. Or if you want to just leave it at the we can too.Id like to add, that Naturally...THERE IS NO reason whatsoever for an Adult to drink Breast-milk.
Id like to also add that Naturally, The ONLY INTENDED Purpose of Breast-milk is Obviously for an Infant, and it is ONLY when an Infant is being born that Breast-Milk gets Produced in the breasts.Since the Infant does not have teeth, or will only have Little teeth at/up to 2years old...
It makes sense that it is for him (the baby). The Soft Tissue of the Breast is made to be suckled by an Infant. (obliviously).The Milk that is there is made for the baby since he cannot eat or drink other forms of food.
If we were now to Establish the Fact that Breat-Milk is Intened for Infants...
and then Look at the Verse Giving a Specific Age when to stop...(2 years old)....
Why would Allah be so Specific? Why would He Specifically say 2 years old if it didnt matter?If I were to say, "Drink Alcohol at 21 years old."... you'd you then assume, its okay to drink at 13? 2 years old is a SPECIFIC AGE.
Allah Gives two Specific Ages in the Quran that I know about...(there may be more)
2 years old.....and 40 years old. One being the age of Suckling/stopping... the other age of Maturity.
Thus we can infer if Allah gives a Specific Age...It is significant.Now, If I am a Man who has a need. I need Milk. and there are Two Sources to get this Milk...Where would I get it?
- Breast-Milk.....BUT The Age to stop drinking is 2 years old...I am now 20. therefore I have now exceeded the age of 2 years old. So this option is out.
2)Cattle-Milk.... It is said in the Quran that we (Humans) drink this milk. Since there is no Age attached to this Ayat...I would Infer that it is probably any Age or rather Any age ABOVE 2.
Does this Not Seem like a Logical/Rational Conclusion?
Although i am not, in any way trying to make it sound as though breast milk doesn't need to be for babies Br.
but arn't we neglecting parts of the ayah 2233- which show the breast milk from the mother doesn't even need to be given to the baby - if so desired?-
?????. if the father desires to complete the term?????..
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If ye decide on a foster-mother for your offspring, there is no blame on you??..
or am i missing it all.
Thanks.
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peace RA786, all,
NB AQ = al quran
Why would Allah be so Specific? Why would He Specifically say 2 years old if it didnt matter?
Of course the age matters, but not for the reason you imply. The context is CLEARLY discussing rights/responsibilities of the mother in such a situation (i.e. post divorce), and the length of time that can be reasonably expected for suckling IF she wants to.
The reason for the guidance is even given in the verse itself
A person should not be burdened beyond its means. No mother shall be harmed because of her child, nor shall a father be harmed because of his child.
It is not worded like your analogy
If I were to say, "Drink Alcohol at 21 years old."... you'd you then assume, its okay to drink at 13? 2 years old is a SPECIFIC AGE.
Thus, your analogy is null and void.
In addition to the above, if we are both starting from this position anything not explicitly forbidden by AQ or by use of cross-referencing, logic etc then it is allowed, then your position is 100% defeated.
Your position can also be defeated by empirical evidence, because your rigid position implies AQ will not allow it for those over 2 years old, when there is ample evidence suggesting it is still beneficial after this time.
Of course, I agree that in terms of nature's way, milk is produced during pregnancy thus is intended for the child BUT there is a huge difference between this and saying it is forbidden for everyone else. The consequences of forbidding something allowed for us is so great that a wise person would err on the side of caution and leave it up to the individual.
As I said, this is to do with the much under rated "hikma" component of AQ. It cannot be taught by reading a verse.
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peace RA786, all,
NB AQ = al quran
Of course the age matters, but not for the reason you imply. The context is CLEARLY discussing rights/responsibilities of the mother in such a situation (i.e. post divorce), and the length of time that can be reasonably expected for suckling IF she wants to.
The reason for the guidance is even given in the verse itself
A person should not be burdened beyond its means. No mother shall be harmed because of her child, nor shall a father be harmed because of his child.
It is not worded like your analogy
Thus, your analogy is null and void.
In addition to the above, if we are both starting from this position anything not explicitly forbidden by AQ or by use of cross-referencing, logic etc then it is allowed, then your position is 100% defeated.
Your position can also be defeated by empirical evidence, because your rigid position implies AQ will not allow it for those over 2 years old, when there is ample evidence suggesting it is still beneficial after this time.
Of course, I agree that in terms of nature's way, milk is produced during pregnancy thus is intended for the child BUT there is a huge difference between this and saying it is forbidden for everyone else. The consequences of forbidding something allowed for us is so great that a wise person would err on the side of caution and leave it up to the individual.
As I said, this is to do with the much under rated "hikma" component of AQ. It cannot be taught by reading a verse.
Well, Does it have to be explicitly forbidden? Does it have to say "Haram".
I mean, I personnally dont think that it is TOTALLY EXPLICITLY "Haram" because it did not DIRECTLY say so.
BUT, in my own logic...If I were a mother, I wouldnt let my husband drink it, or as a husband I wouldnt drink it because it is My conclusion that it is Not for me.Meaning, I think its Indirectly, (lack of a better word..."Forbidden". Perhaps I am still Unsure...But judging by the Verse that Encourages me to drink Cow's Milk...I think it would be Better for me to drink that than breast milk.
So, Is it "Forbidden".... well thats a strong word. I guess for me personally it is. For you? I guess its not for you.
The way I believe, is kind of like that Hadith that says...."If you are Unsure about doing something in religion....Than ...Dont DO it! untill you do enough research telling you that it is okay".... So far...all logic tells me dont do it.
.....Im just now trying to find research to back up my claim/position.Ill be back D
(ps. I is a treat arguing with you. btw)D
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Yes, you can forbid it for yourself if you want, no problem there. What I am saying is based on the evidence presented thus far, it cannot be classed as forbidden for everyone else.
Also, when I say forbidden, I am not only referring to the word "haram".
True, I understand. To me is is always a personal thing. I will forbid something that I think is "Wrong" according to the best of my knowledge.
My Point of view, is that You (in general) can draw a conclusion on something that is indirect.
Id say that Indirectly, Breast milk is ONLY FOR INFANTS. There is alot of Common Sense Pointing to this Conclusion.Allah did not say "Directly" (THIS BREAST-MILK IS ONLY FOR INFANTS UNDER 2 Years Old)...
But, He does Prescribe a number of Options, and It does Give a Specific Age (2 years) when you can stop--After an Agreement with the Father and Mother...andLater on in the Quran, Gives Specific Prescription (advice) that you can Get Milk from Cattle...(Your Need is Milk...You Solution is Cattle).From this...Id say it isnt that Far off to Assume that That is the Best Solution. Since it is Explained.
It seems to me that your View or Argument Rests Soly on "Since its not mentioned its Not "Forbidden"...
I think that Argument/Stance is Weak. Eariler in the Post I Posted how That type of Argument is Weak because There are Many Examples of things that are Believed to be Forbidden..that arent "Specifically Named in the Quran"...Such as Anal Sex. You as an Individual and Reader Must Draw your Own Conclusion in Regards to that. According to My interpetation...Anal Sex is Haram "Forbidden" and "insufficient without Question". Not due to any bias Homophobia or Bias feelings even with straight couples...But Due to my Interpetation of the Quran.
Some Muslims Both "Quranic" and "Sunni/Shia" Hold the View that Anal Sex is Permitted since not explicitly in the quran for homosexual and Hederosexual Cuples Alike.
I think its forbidden (indirectly) in the Quran. By taking Many Verses and reseources Both Traditional and Modern...I have concluded Anal Sex is to be avoided just as Drinking Breast Milk is to be avoided.
I have a Question for you then. So do you agree with the Traditionalists about the View of Nika Mutta?
Nika Mutta is a Doctine or belief that basically says you can Marry a woman, have sex with her, and then Divorce her instantly. It is called a "Temperary Marraige", and they believe it is permitted for a way to have "Good Sex"(Moral sex instead of Fornication)
and Since the Quran Doesnt Explicitly Prohibit it...It is Okay... They Believe that The Quran Simply Means Marriage. (Not a specific Type of Marriage)...So therefore since the Quran doesnt Go into "Detail" about Temporary Marriage or the Porhibitions Thereof....They Conclude Temporary Marriage is Accpetible.Will you too Accept this View since your Logic regarding Breastmilk's Permission seems to be Similar?
Any Logical person will tell you that these "Traditionalists" have just successfully figured out a way to Conviently Saticfy their Lower carnal Desires and use scripture to Back it up. But..They are Only Fooling themselves.Just like in the Bible. Isa (jesus) I beleive, was Mad at the "jews" because they too had twisted the interpetation of Marriage and Divorce in regards to Musa's Books. (Allah's Torah);Law.
What are your thoughts? vailid? ;D
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It seems to me that your View or Argument Rests Soly on "Since its not mentioned its Not "Forbidden"...
That just shows you do not understand my position, or that of logic.
Re temporary marriage
I have not studied this topic, but here is my 2-minute analysis, see the part in bold
What does The Quran say on the age of marriage?
The Quran does not state a specific legal age of marriage, however it does give a guideline and mentions situations and conditions that should be considered before marriage
Determining mutual attraction/compatibility
Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith
Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any)
Understanding and acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract
If male, capable of providing for the family/household
To have physically matured / post-puberty
If the marriage is unsuccessful, one should also be capable of undertaking divorce proceedings, e.g. separation period, arbitration, discussion of settlement etc .If you define "ghaleeth" (strong/solemn) as it can include a temporary (i.e. weak) pledge, and the witness(s) to the marriage contract agree, then yes you could interpret it the way you refer to. However, logic and cross-reference of word/topic suggests otherwise.
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Let's not put words in the quran where there are none. The ayat doesn't state that the only milk we are supposed to drink is from the livestock.
It also doesn't say women aren't livestock. Joke.
