Please help translating 2:125- Thanks

san

@herbman, do you meant this one?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596565.msg5571#msg5571

Wat-taqizu min-maqam-mi Ibrohim-ma Mu-Sol-lan.
(Chapter 2 Verse 125)

Learn from the status of Abraham the Committed

Mu-Sol-lan (singular) -Once In Chapter 2 Verse 125 they are translated as ?Aplace of worship?. NOT ?people who perform ritual

I tend to agree for the reasons listed in his article, I only really disagree with his outcome of the method and translation of the word. The proof you gave above does not appear to be as strong, but my Arabic is weak. I hope someone will jump in and halp us with this.

In either case, it works for me. If it is a characteristic, then it is Abraham, A linker(one who links). If it is a place, then that place must be metaphorical as the spiritual place Abraham attained through discipline. So either way works for me. Please share your opinion of this.

I too see Prophet Ibrahim as the key in understanding Salaat (and all about islam in general). However, i'm trying for this moment to approach certain concepts in Alqur'aan not as something physical (bound in space/time such as a structure or a site). Verses 2225-26 led me into this verse (2125) and i am too deeply interested in these words

maqam and muSalla

I already have some ideas about Salaat, in regard to the examples given through the verses concerning Ibrahim -- though it's still scarce and there are still missing things. What d'you think about the maqam and muSalla in this verse, and which verses d'you think is directly related to this one, concerning these two terms?

Peace

Mazhar

is

san

is

Yes, location adverb. Thank you.

Now where is the muSalla? Yes, it is where Ibrahim stood. All people should go there--no matter where they are, they must go to where Ibrahim stood--if they were to be in muSalla. There is no muSalla but there. Make perfect sense. Thank you.

Wakas

As far as I'm aware "mu" means "one who... (whatever it is attached to)", e.g. muslim, mumin, mushrik.

So, in this case the literal rendering of "musallan" = "one who turns/goes towards in a close/positive manner" or more succinctly "one who bonds".

bkanwar2

As far as I'm aware "mu" means "one who... (whatever it is attached to)", e.g. muslim, mumin, mushrik.

So, in this case the literal rendering of "musallan" = "one who turns/goes towards in a close/positive manner" or more succinctly "one who bonds".

Dear Wakas, referance for what you said in red, please.

Badar

san

never mind my last post above -- got a bit itchy at such an 'elegant' reply P

As far as I'm aware "mu" means "one who... (whatever it is attached to)", e.g. muslim, mumin, mushrik.

So, in this case the literal rendering of "musallan" = "one who turns/goes towards in a close/positive manner" or more succinctly "one who bonds".

Peace Wakas,

isn't there muSalli/muSalliyn for that? Plus, there are only muSalliyn in AQ and not muSalli, perhaps another clue that (Al)Salaat is to be performed in company.

Besides, "take from maqaam Ibrahim, one who Salla" seems a little off to me. Unless, you meant "take from maqaam Ibrahim--one who Salla" (without being specified as to what to take?)

remaqaam

I took a look at concordances of maqaam in AQ (other than 2125 and 397) and am almost sure to say that "physical standing position/place" NEVER make sense (at least to me) for each of them except 2739 (though it's possibly allegorical).

In most of them, "way of life/conduct of life" would make best sense to me.

Interesting concepts directly related with maqaam in those verses

maqm wa tadhkr bi yti l-lahi (1071)

khfa maqm, wa khfa wa`di (1414); khfa maqma rabbihi; wanah l-nafsa ani l-haw (5546; 7940)

maqman maHmuwdan, Sidqin? (1779)

khayrun maqman wa 'aHsanu (1973)

maqmin karim (2658, 4426)

wam minn ill lahu maqmun malmun (37164)

l-muttaqna f maqmin amnin (4451)

Peace

Wakas

peace,

bkanwar,

It was based on my observations, so no specific reference.

However, I believe it comes under active/passive participles. I could be wrong in what it comes under.

e.g.

Participle
Every verb has a corresponding active participle, and most have passive participles. E.g. muallim 'teacher' is the active participle to stem II. of the root -l-m ('know&#039.
The active participle to Stem I is filun, and the passive participle is maflun.
Stems II-X take prefix mu- and nominal endings for both the participles, active and passive. The difference between the two participles is only in the vowel between the last two root letters, which is -i- for active and -a- for passive (e.g. II. active mu-fail-un, and passive mu-faal-un&#039.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_grammar

san,

I am not 100% on the Arabic/grammar, but whichever way, I dont see a problem with it. And yes, from my studies "maqam" rarely, if ever , means a physical place of standing.

Mazhar

Yes, location adverb. Thank you.

Now where is the muSalla? Yes, it is where Ibrahim stood. All people should go there--no matter where they are, they must go to where Ibrahim stood--if they were to be in muSalla. There is no muSalla but there. Make perfect sense. Thank you.

But people from outside world are asked to visit that place if they have resources to go there.

san

Peace all,

But people from outside world are asked to visit that place if they have resources to go there.

Outside world.

Resources.

Resources from outside world are being brought to inside world. Inside world gain resources. Outside world gain spiritual contentment. Stay this way--long live the kingdom on which Mecca stand.

919

Peace

Mazhar

Peace all,

Outside world.

Resources.

Resources from outside world are being brought to inside world. Inside world gain resources. Outside world gain spiritual contentment. Stay this way--long live the kingdom on which Mecca stand.

919

Peace

It is otherway round. "Resources" have flown from "inside world" to outside world.

san

It is otherway round. "Resources" have flown from "inside world" to outside world.

'long live "inside world" -- the source of "Resources" to outside world.'

Peace

unknownuser

Peace all,

Outside world.

Resources.

Resources from outside world are being brought to inside world. Inside world gain resources. Outside world gain spiritual contentment. Stay this way--long live the kingdom on which Mecca stand.

919

Peace

I think it should have been something likethough.

(2125)And (remember) when we made The system of vying with one another for firmness of mankind and peace/safety and take from standing (of) Abraham the counselor. And we covenanted with Abraham and Ishmael that they purify/make righteous my system for those wanting to do good and who devote themselves and those who humble the submitting.

Do you still believe in Mecca after all that you have read here at free-minds?

I am glad i stopped , thank God.

san

@simple,

I have presented my view before

... i just want to share my current view on how to see this natural, physically-boundless relationship and interaction between humanity, under the invitation of the Nurturer of all Natures -- which can be performed by any family or household, at any time and at any home place and in any community on this earth...

You might want to ask those who still believe in Mecca, the city. Not me. P

herbman

As far as I'm aware "mu" means "one who... (whatever it is attached to)", e.g. muslim, mumin, mushrik.

So, in this case the literal rendering of "musallan" = "one who turns/goes towards in a close/positive manner" or more succinctly "one who bonds".

Salam, Peace Wakas, all,

1- mussalan in the verse refer to makan and not to ibrahim, please correct if I am wrong.
2- mu- prefix can be more general not only for persons e.g. mubarak (where baraka is on, can be a day, a year, a place)
3- maqam ibrahima mussalan could mean Ibrahim's position/faith is a where the bond/link is on--> which means The key to perform the bond/link is to get the same position as Ibrahim about Monotheism/association.

Peace

san

Peace Herbman and everyone,

Salam, Peace Wakas, all,

1- mussalan in the verse refer to makan and not to ibrahim, please correct if I am wrong.
2- mu- prefix can be more general not only for persons e.g. mubarak (where baraka is on, can be a day, a year, a place)
3- maqam ibrahima mussalan could mean Ibrahim's position/faith is a where the bond/link is on--> which means The key to perform the bond/link is to get the same position as Ibrahim about Monotheism/association.

Peace

makan? you mean maqam? how/why?
for the example of "mubarak"

692 kitaabun as mubarakun
6155 kitaabun as mubarakun
1931 (Iysa 'ibn Maryam) as mubarakan 2150 d.ikrun (a reminder) as mubarakun 2329 munzalan (place to descend sth?) as mubarakan 2435 s.ajaratin (tree) as mubarakatin 2830 Albuqati (a water source?) as Almubarakati
449 laylatin (night) as mubarakatin
509 maa`an (water) from the sky as mubarakan

mu- could well be the performer--i.e, a subject who performs something. In case of mubarak-, the performer of barakah -- e.g., if you take "barakah" as "blessing", then "mubarak-" is the performer/deliverer of blessing.

note in the example above, the 'suffix' is always in harmony with the subject

Now let's get to the trickier verse

396 Inna awwala baytin wudia li-lnaAsi la-llad.iy bi-bakkata mubaArakAn wa hudAn li-lalamiyn

mubarakan wahudan ... yet no other subject with -an in the verse. Does mubarakan refer to another subject not in the verse? Or does mubarakan refer to no one in particular? Thus the "awwal" in the verse means the "beginning" of a bayt (i.e., not the First House)?

Because i have another view to read this verse as

Indeed -- beginning of -- a bayt (home/house/family) -- appointed/brought forth/delivered/laid-in-place -- for mankind -- (em) is that which -- with hardship/denial/pressure/competition -- of a mubarak (one with blessing, or one striving/exerting/laboring, firmly/constantly/continuously) -- and a guidance -- for the worlds.

In 367 Ibrahim is "Hanifan musliman"; in 1931 `Iysa is "mubarakan"; in 2125, min maqaAmi IbraAhiyma muSallan

Considering the examples above, now i begin to think that muSallan is indeed Ibrahim himself and not the maqam. However, i very much agree that the key to understand Salla/Salaat is indeed in the maqam of Ibrahim. Which, i think, is explained extensively through AQ...

Previously we know that there is a relation between maqamin and Aminin (4451). Within the verse 2125 itself, is there some kind of relationship between the characters of Albayt with Salla/Salaat? I mean

mat.aabatan ~ AmnAn ~ muSallAn ?

returning/gathering/summoning/congregation ~ safety/security/faith/peace ~ Salaat ?

Peace

Wakas

peace herbman,

I'm unable to clarify the grammar aspect at the moment. However, either way, I'm not sure if it impacts my present view. Perhaps someone can clarify the grammar aspect.

Joe_Betik

salamun AAalaykum herbman & the rest,

perhaps you may want to consider this

And then We made meditation (Wa-ith jaAAalna albayta) an asylum for people (mathabatan lilnnasi), and a method to appease the mind (waamnan), and you (pl.) make out of Ibrahim?s standing (waittakhithoo min maqami ibraheem), one with the burning desire to know (musallan). And We have assigned Ibrahim (waAAahidna ila ibraheema) and also Ismael (wa-ismaAAeel) to refine the meditation on Me (an tahhira baytiya), for those wandering in thoughts (liltta-ifeen) while devoting (waalAAakifeen), and also the respectfully acknowledging (waalrrukkaAAi alssujoodi).
And then Ibrahim said (Wa-ith qala ibraheem), ?My Lord, make this ?idiot? peaceful (rabbi ijAAal hatha baladan aminan), and provide my followers with the benefits (waorzuq ahlahu mina alththamarat), whoever among them who believe in God and the last day (man amana minhum biAllahi waalyawmi al-akhir).? He said (qala), ?But whoever is ungrateful (waman kafara), then his happiness is for a little while (faomattiAAuhu qaleelan), then I shall drive him to the agony of fire (thumma adtarruhu ila AAathabi alnnar). What an evil destination (wabi/sa almaseer)!?

may God guide us on the correct path, insha-Allah.

peace
mohammed noh

noble

Peace
I think what it means is the underlying practical aspect that the Salat as ritual prayer has direction,
and needs to be physically directed to maqam Ibrahim (the place where Ibrahim and his son built the first temple for mankind in Bekkah, and where the pilgrimage also happens).
This is further detailed in other verses...
You know Occam's razor (simplest arabic meaning of maqam is place).

Mazhar

mu- could well be the performer--i.e, a subject who performs something. In case of mubarak-, the performer of barakah -- e.g., if you take "barakah" as "blessing", then "mubarak-" is the performer/deliverer of blessing.

But the problem is that he is not performer, but passive participle.

san

But the problem is that he is not performer, but passive participle.

Thanks. you're right.

This is erroneous in many ways

mu- could well be the performer--i.e, a subject who performs something. In case of mubarak-, the performer of barakah -- e.g., if you take "barakah" as "blessing", then "mubarak-" is the performer/deliverer of blessing.

first, i should've written it mubaarak-, and baaraka the verb not baarakah the noun. Then again the active participle is mubaarik- ... I was trying to view the passive participle as active participle. It doesn't work right, mostly. Forgive me for that. Seeing there is no mubaarik- mentioned in AQ may show that there is no one who "bless" other than God...

Peace