How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Salam nimnimak,
Sorry nimnimak I think I am not being clear.3353 O you who believe, do not enter the homes of the prophet unless you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a narrative. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the messenger of God, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God.
3354 If you reveal anything, or hide it, God is fully aware of all things.
3355 There is no sin upon them before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those who are maintained by their oaths. And be aware of God, for God is witness over all things.Basically what I am getting at is. It is not pure for men to ask the Prophet's wives "something" unless behind a barrier.... EXCEPT for the Prophet's Wives fathers, sons etc. and MMAs (see the Arabic, it is clearly about them). So verse 3355 is implying that the Prophet's wives had MMAs!
God willing I will try and address your post. But it will take time to do properly.
Salam Aalmakto
I apologise. I assumed your quote and argument of chapter 33 was the same as what Zubairus quoted before on the thread and Zubairus' argument and quotes were based on verses 3350-52. This line of argument is new to me and it does make the notion of an MMA look.....ridiculus -X
There is one thing though (which won't make too much of a difference) going on islamawakened.com, most of the translations of that verse suggest that 3355 is about the dresscode of the wives of the prophet with respect to whom they can relax this code ie Their fathers and so on. But that would still be problematic if MMA was to be understood as what i have suggested as that would mean that the wives of the prophet (who are already married) can relax their dresscode in front of their boyfriends.....which surely they would not have if they are married to the prophet.
There is however a big problem here. That is 424 which states that the muhsinat are forbiddent to us unless they are MMA. Not to mention the notion of the possibility of sex with the MMA.
The only thing that remains in my mind, is the possibility of the notion of different meanings to the phrase MMA. So like literally taking the meaning of those whom you have contractual rights over and then just applying it to life such that it would encompass doctors, psychiatrists.....girlfirends and so on. But this does look weak.
Only address this post if interests you. I did not mean them to be questions for you to address but i meant them as questions that express my own concerns with the notions of MMA and the possibility that someone may already know something that i may not know. I'l will look more on this topic and post what i find in the thread. I have no idea how long that will take.
Thank you for clarifying.
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I have not issue with the hadith provided they sound reasonable and don't contradict the Quran.
New Question if you don't mind. Contracted slave women? Would that not be more or less equal to prostitutes of today? It is a contract afterall.No not prostitutes. Prostitutes don't do contracts. And I don't think sharing would be allowed either.
There are several cases where poor women would demand such a contract, and who would not be in the catagory of marriageable for the muslim firstly, they'd need to be non-monotheist, secondly they'd either need to be of women whos husbands had lost to the muslims after an act of war perpetrated against muslims, or economic migrants departing from a land, or within one's own land not able to find husbands from their people but rather interested in a muslim.
How's this possible? Quran 2221 gives us a hint. We are to teach those women about islam so that they become believers, monotheists specifically. And then when they believe do we marry them. This solves any problems of not enough muslim women, such as is the case in the middle east where most of the muslimahs demand so much more than the muslims can afford. Of course there is a case of high unemployment there and abouts as well as in many places.
There's also quran 424 which states that marrying women who are already married is forbidden, unless they are slave girl because the point is to protect yourself from secret fornication.
You can refer to the following as well 28.12.29 and so http//www.themodernreligion.com/misc/slave/slavery_verses.htm
It seems that it's okay to use this second option, but the goal is to teach women about islam. Of course many who do marry outsides the folds of islam practically fail islam, but of course that's another matter altogether, which would require the community of muslims to set up some sort of test that two people would be appropriate for others in marriage nikah or contracted slave.
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Peace All,
Can Premarital Sex be of any different from Free Sex? Or are you referring to having sex with a person whom later you plan to marry. I think premarital sex should confine to a couple whom later will tie the knot! I think this topic should not be generalised and put in one basket. It is not only about SEX but much more to it.
Thank you. -
Peace All
I am confused about what the MMA are. Here's a quick round up of why and hopefully a summary for easy viewing by others
235-6 States that the private parts our to be guarded and that the exception to such guarding of the private parts are the azwaaj and MMAs.
424 Implies that the muhsinat women are forbidden for marriage unless they are your MMA.There are other verses to quote but these will suffice to make my point clear as to why i can't comprehend MMA being anything other than a fiance or girlfriend.
However we then run to some problems as pointed out by Aalmakto
The ones which put me off the most were
1671 and 3028 These verses imply that the MMA are of a lesser standing than the individual who has an MMA. Which contradicts notions of relationships.
3353-55 This is incredibly weird. The wives of the prophet are told to relax their code in fron of the MMAs whilst being married to the prophet. This again is problematic as surely it's wrong if the wives are exposing themselves to other than the prophet and their family members. So again this contradicts.
There are also other verses that pose problems however i think that these are the strongest of the problematic verses.
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Peace All,
Can Premarital Sex be of any different from Free Sex? Or are you referring to having sex with a person whom later you plan to marry. I think premarital sex should confine to a couple whom later will tie the knot! I think this topic should not be generalised and put in one basket. It is not only about SEX but much more to it.
Thank you.From what i've seen recently, i strongly dislike the idea of taking sex as something casual because that approach appears to me to just not lead to a strong family and lasting relationship and it makes finding a a long term relationship harder with this approach in the culture and lifesyle.
But i am having difficulties understanding whether the west's less strict approach towards sex is the cause of their high divorce rates or just their people with respect to relationships.
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Peace all
I've found more free time lately. It's our study leave and i have already done some revision so i did some more thinking on this topic and here is where i got to
I was going through the occurences of the word azwaaj in the Quran and an idea came to my mind.
Commonly in the case of men and women, the word is translated as husband or wife.
The root of the wordZay-Waw-Jiim = to couple/join/pair/unite/wed, marriage, a pair, a fellow or like, spouse.
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 432, 433
A problem with translating the word zawj becomes evident when we look at
2230 So if he divorces her again, then she will not be lawful for him until after she has married a different zawjan; if he divorces her; then there is no sin that they come back together if they think they will uphold the boundaries of God. These are the boundaries of God, He clarifies them for a people who know.
The meaning we give to a wife or a husband is what we give after marriage
But from what i see in this verse it is about marrying a zawj so a zawj does not follow from marriage.
Therefore, a zawj according is not necessarily a husband or a wife whilst i do think that it could also mean a husband or a wife. Kind of like a couple or a married couple. Similarly, a zawj or a married zawj. -
Divorce rates in the West are not that different from divorce rates in some Middle Eastern countries.
I'm not sure one sex being exclusive to marriage, but i'm pretty sure that the current approach of some countries are wrong
This source shows the stats of some countries divorces in 2002
http//www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
In general, there are more western countries with high divorce rates then east and i think it's largely down to the attitude of the country's society.
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http//www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
In general, there are more western countries with high divorce rates then east
... Fahad al-Yahya, a psychiatrist who counsels married couples, estimates at least 30 percent of Saudi first marriages end in divorce. The rate is comparable to the United States where, according to the National Center for Health Statistics, 33 percent of first marriages are disrupted either by separation or divorce.
http//findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20061210/ai_n16902969/
Saudi Arabia -- second highest divorce rate in the world
In Egypt, 40 percent of marriages end in divorce.
Egypt records sharp rise in divorce rate
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Divorce rates in the West are not that different from divorce rates in some Middle Eastern countries.
That's because in many middle eastern countries, western methods of marriage and relationship is done.
http//trueloverevolution.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/malaysia-gives-free-honeymoons-to-lower-divorce-rate/
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That's because in many middle eastern countries, western methods of marriage and relationship is done.
So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
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So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
According to the research I've read it's two things - unemployment and adultery.
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So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
Thank you for the info on the divorce rates in Egypt and KSA and Heba Qutb.
The thread is about sex before marriage and from what i have tried to research, it still looks that way to me. The topic of MMAs is a mystery whilst with Quran's usage of zawj (spouse) now it appears to me that they (zawj) don't result from marriages meaning that sex with a zawj is permissible and all the guidelines in the Quran would apply to it. This however would leave open what constitutes a zawj.I'm not really that focused on divorce rates. My dislike is from how sex is seen as casual and acceptable outside of a good relationship. So one night stands, prostitution are things i'm against despite lacking sufficient reason for this. So far my only reason is a weak assumption that sleeping with too many people or having sex casually can in some ways effect your abillity to fulfill the potential you may have for loving someone or being able to maintain faithfulness as perhaps you may find a greater desire to have sex with someone new or you may find your self weaker in controling a desire to remain faithful due to your lack of value for sex when you have been so casual about it.
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Marriage doesn't necessarly protect one from disease and other harms, as adultery is common throughout the world. Even if one party remains faithful, they can still can get disease from their spouse.
However, sex is intended be between two trusting individuals. This is why it's so easy to catch/spread disease when you have sex with random people. I believe our creator specifically wrote the program in this fashion. Without trust--the foundation--you have nothing. -
I'm not really that focused on divorce rates. My dislike is from how sex is seen as casual and acceptable outside of a good relationship. So one night stands, prostitution are things i'm against despite lacking sufficient reason for this.
You were the one who brought up the issue of divorce rate, suggesting a more lenient approach towards sexuality could be the reason for rising divorce rates. peace
I fully agree with you that casual, meaningless sex is not a good thing at all. But you seem to be equating sex without a marriage certificate with promiscuity, loveless sex, sleeping around etc., and I strongly disagree with that. People can have a serious relationship full of love and commitment without a piece of paper stating that they are married. And people can be married but have a loveless sex life, cheat on each other and so on.
Speaking of cheating ... this is slightly OT, but since the issue of AIDS and STDs has been brought up in this context, I'd like to point out that the assumption "sex wihtout marriage = spread of STDs" is wrong. Fact is, that in many countries, married women are at a very high risk of being infected with HIV through their husbands. So I believe we should leave this argument aside when talking about sex before marriage.
So far my only reason is a weak assumption that sleeping with too many people or having sex casually can in some ways effect your abillity to fulfill the potential you may have for loving someone or being able to maintain faithfulness as perhaps you may find a greater desire to have sex with someone new or you may find your self weaker in controling a desire to remain faithful due to your lack of value for sex when you have been so casual about it.
I understand what you are saying, but in order to find out, the best way would be to actually talk to people who have first hand experience with that, rather than relying on your personal assumptions. I know people who had casual sex in the past but live in monogamous, happy relationships now. Personally, I believe the ability to love someone and be faithful to him / her is a question of maturity and integrity, and people can evolve and change during their lifetime. So I wouldn't necessarily say that having sex before marriage "damages" a person's capability for love and commitment.
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What is the difference between a wife or a girlfriend?
A couple of witnesses and a few paper work?
I think that this argument is not looking at it from a human relationship point of view which is what sex is about. Having sex with a prostitute for example is not the same as having sex with a partner of some sort. A prostitute does not care about your behavior but a wife and girlfriend does. This is because there is an oath between the two of you and this oath is "just like I do not want you to cheat on me, then i also won't cheat on you". It does not make a difference between a wife or girfriend. Wife is a legal arrangement and perhaps a social function, but morally cheating cause harm and pain to somebody else and creates distrust. It does not matter whether she is a wife or girlfriend. Marriage does provide more assurances for a couple that something is serious. But not all marriages are such.
Thats how i look at it. Its about relationship between two people. Now of course if your wife does not mind you sleeping around and you don't mind her sleeping around then i guess you can do as you please. But you ain't going to find too many couple like that. Thats how I read the verses.
But to say that there is a profound difference between two partners who are married and two who are not is not accurate. They are legally different but even then many societies eleminated those two differences easily. Thats because the only difference is a bunch of paper work. No more or less. Its a legal issue and not a moral difference. Cheating and betrayal is cheating and betrayal. Sex is an intimate act between two people and human relationship dictates whats moral and not. Prostitution is a business transaction and in that case the issue is very different. Now if you have a girlfiend or a wife and mess with a protitute then its is also a sin. Cause how would you(a man) feel if your woman had sex with a male escort service behind your back?
As they say, cheating often requires lying and concealing. Whether its with a wife or girlfriend. A bunch of paper work is not going to make it more acceptable.
I fully agree with this.
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nowadays sex is just a tool used to glorify oneself, that's what i notice in discussions online and real life
they all talk about how many women they did, how many times they had sex, they are always on the lookout for hot women, and if you are not like them you are a total loser who deserves no respect
thats what casual sex brings
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they all talk about how many women they did, how many times they had sex, they are always on the lookout for hot women, and if you are not like them you are a total loser who deserves no respect
I don't really know anybody who thinks this way. Not saying those people don't exist, I know they do and have met some. But not in my personal circle of friends and acquaintances.
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Peace everyone,
159 We descended the reminder and we are protectors of it.
The ink and paper that the great reading (al-quran al-adhim) is printed on is not magical, or sacred, or holy. It doesn't save or guide anyone. Obviously it is the reminder that matters. The same principle is applied to a contract (mithaq) of marriage; although the paper it is printed on is irrelevant, it provides the kind of righteous framework needed to have a lasting, loving commitment.
First, let it be known that there is a very strong and very serious knot being tied through a marriage contract.
2235 Do not tie the knot of marriage (uqdah al-nikah) until...
421 They (the women) have taken from you (men) a very strong/serious contract.The contract is described as "ghalidh" (very strong; very serious), the same word used by the god to describe the contract that ALL the prophets made with the god in 337 and 381 - to deliver their messages to humankind and recognize Gabriel (gibril) when he came to all of them (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10190.0). So it's a big deal.
Two elements needed to keep the contractual knot tied tightly are (1) love (mawaddah) and (2) kindness (rahmah). You need both, working simultatenously, to make a marriage work.
3021 Of his signs is that he created for you from yourselves spouses, so that you may have comfort with them. And he made between you love and kindness.
People get divorced because they can't maintain (1) love and (2) kindness in their marriage.
Peace,
-David