How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
According to the research I've read it's two things - unemployment and adultery.
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So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
Thank you for the info on the divorce rates in Egypt and KSA and Heba Qutb.
The thread is about sex before marriage and from what i have tried to research, it still looks that way to me. The topic of MMAs is a mystery whilst with Quran's usage of zawj (spouse) now it appears to me that they (zawj) don't result from marriages meaning that sex with a zawj is permissible and all the guidelines in the Quran would apply to it. This however would leave open what constitutes a zawj.I'm not really that focused on divorce rates. My dislike is from how sex is seen as casual and acceptable outside of a good relationship. So one night stands, prostitution are things i'm against despite lacking sufficient reason for this. So far my only reason is a weak assumption that sleeping with too many people or having sex casually can in some ways effect your abillity to fulfill the potential you may have for loving someone or being able to maintain faithfulness as perhaps you may find a greater desire to have sex with someone new or you may find your self weaker in controling a desire to remain faithful due to your lack of value for sex when you have been so casual about it.
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Marriage doesn't necessarly protect one from disease and other harms, as adultery is common throughout the world. Even if one party remains faithful, they can still can get disease from their spouse.
However, sex is intended be between two trusting individuals. This is why it's so easy to catch/spread disease when you have sex with random people. I believe our creator specifically wrote the program in this fashion. Without trust--the foundation--you have nothing. -
I'm not really that focused on divorce rates. My dislike is from how sex is seen as casual and acceptable outside of a good relationship. So one night stands, prostitution are things i'm against despite lacking sufficient reason for this.
You were the one who brought up the issue of divorce rate, suggesting a more lenient approach towards sexuality could be the reason for rising divorce rates. peace
I fully agree with you that casual, meaningless sex is not a good thing at all. But you seem to be equating sex without a marriage certificate with promiscuity, loveless sex, sleeping around etc., and I strongly disagree with that. People can have a serious relationship full of love and commitment without a piece of paper stating that they are married. And people can be married but have a loveless sex life, cheat on each other and so on.
Speaking of cheating ... this is slightly OT, but since the issue of AIDS and STDs has been brought up in this context, I'd like to point out that the assumption "sex wihtout marriage = spread of STDs" is wrong. Fact is, that in many countries, married women are at a very high risk of being infected with HIV through their husbands. So I believe we should leave this argument aside when talking about sex before marriage.
So far my only reason is a weak assumption that sleeping with too many people or having sex casually can in some ways effect your abillity to fulfill the potential you may have for loving someone or being able to maintain faithfulness as perhaps you may find a greater desire to have sex with someone new or you may find your self weaker in controling a desire to remain faithful due to your lack of value for sex when you have been so casual about it.
I understand what you are saying, but in order to find out, the best way would be to actually talk to people who have first hand experience with that, rather than relying on your personal assumptions. I know people who had casual sex in the past but live in monogamous, happy relationships now. Personally, I believe the ability to love someone and be faithful to him / her is a question of maturity and integrity, and people can evolve and change during their lifetime. So I wouldn't necessarily say that having sex before marriage "damages" a person's capability for love and commitment.
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What is the difference between a wife or a girlfriend?
A couple of witnesses and a few paper work?
I think that this argument is not looking at it from a human relationship point of view which is what sex is about. Having sex with a prostitute for example is not the same as having sex with a partner of some sort. A prostitute does not care about your behavior but a wife and girlfriend does. This is because there is an oath between the two of you and this oath is "just like I do not want you to cheat on me, then i also won't cheat on you". It does not make a difference between a wife or girfriend. Wife is a legal arrangement and perhaps a social function, but morally cheating cause harm and pain to somebody else and creates distrust. It does not matter whether she is a wife or girlfriend. Marriage does provide more assurances for a couple that something is serious. But not all marriages are such.
Thats how i look at it. Its about relationship between two people. Now of course if your wife does not mind you sleeping around and you don't mind her sleeping around then i guess you can do as you please. But you ain't going to find too many couple like that. Thats how I read the verses.
But to say that there is a profound difference between two partners who are married and two who are not is not accurate. They are legally different but even then many societies eleminated those two differences easily. Thats because the only difference is a bunch of paper work. No more or less. Its a legal issue and not a moral difference. Cheating and betrayal is cheating and betrayal. Sex is an intimate act between two people and human relationship dictates whats moral and not. Prostitution is a business transaction and in that case the issue is very different. Now if you have a girlfiend or a wife and mess with a protitute then its is also a sin. Cause how would you(a man) feel if your woman had sex with a male escort service behind your back?
As they say, cheating often requires lying and concealing. Whether its with a wife or girlfriend. A bunch of paper work is not going to make it more acceptable.
I fully agree with this.
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nowadays sex is just a tool used to glorify oneself, that's what i notice in discussions online and real life
they all talk about how many women they did, how many times they had sex, they are always on the lookout for hot women, and if you are not like them you are a total loser who deserves no respect
thats what casual sex brings
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they all talk about how many women they did, how many times they had sex, they are always on the lookout for hot women, and if you are not like them you are a total loser who deserves no respect
I don't really know anybody who thinks this way. Not saying those people don't exist, I know they do and have met some. But not in my personal circle of friends and acquaintances.
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Peace everyone,
159 We descended the reminder and we are protectors of it.
The ink and paper that the great reading (al-quran al-adhim) is printed on is not magical, or sacred, or holy. It doesn't save or guide anyone. Obviously it is the reminder that matters. The same principle is applied to a contract (mithaq) of marriage; although the paper it is printed on is irrelevant, it provides the kind of righteous framework needed to have a lasting, loving commitment.
First, let it be known that there is a very strong and very serious knot being tied through a marriage contract.
2235 Do not tie the knot of marriage (uqdah al-nikah) until...
421 They (the women) have taken from you (men) a very strong/serious contract.The contract is described as "ghalidh" (very strong; very serious), the same word used by the god to describe the contract that ALL the prophets made with the god in 337 and 381 - to deliver their messages to humankind and recognize Gabriel (gibril) when he came to all of them (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10190.0). So it's a big deal.
Two elements needed to keep the contractual knot tied tightly are (1) love (mawaddah) and (2) kindness (rahmah). You need both, working simultatenously, to make a marriage work.
3021 Of his signs is that he created for you from yourselves spouses, so that you may have comfort with them. And he made between you love and kindness.
People get divorced because they can't maintain (1) love and (2) kindness in their marriage.
Peace,
-David
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So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
In KSA crypto-jewish methods are present.
But as far as divorce rates go... I provided the malaysian example.
I know of Heba Kutb, and the fact of sexual laxity in marriages came in from the west during colonialism as far as I understand it.
As for you assuming that I had said "the perfect east"... did I even say that?
nope
I'll say that since the rise of sufism taking over the muslims, and then the europeans colonizing the muslims and implanting their scholars and banning women from going to the mosque and etc... since then.
Of course Heba Kutb is not a quranist and she would not have gotten her research if all the muslims of the past were quranists.
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Why do Egyptians get divorced?
Western concept
"The same mother will also tell her daughter that it's the sole responsibility of the woman to keep the household running as long as the man is financially capable."
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlwgxPEoPpY -- Prophetic concept.
Well you could take the above as western or eastern but ultimately it's unislamic.
The rest of the article you quote sounds like the Egyptians (and alot of other people) are stuck in some sort of 50s/60s shift.
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God has a response to everything, do you think that in the quran that when it is said that we will be punished for exceeding the limits in this world (and the hereafter) that it is in jest?
Consider why we have an AIDS epidemic, why STDs exist, the lack of harmony in societies where there are broken family structures. A child is a combination of the mother and father with some differences, it is only through knowing the mother and father that a child can really know itself properly and its position in the global landscape.
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Consider why we have an AIDS epidemic
The lethal impact of AIDS on many women and girls must be recognized as a form of mass femicide that is devastating women throughout the world. These femicides are occurring as a result of the overlap of four gender-related problems AIDS, male sexism and domination, genital mutilation, and rape. The following paragraph illuminates the role of male sexism and domination in causing the rapid spread of AIDS in the Caribbean.
According to Jeannie Relly, the Ministry of Health in Trinidad and Tobago reported that seven out of eight people infected with HIV/AIDS between the ages of 10 and 19 are female (February 2000, p. A15). The Jamaican Health Minister attributed the spread of AIDS to "the irresponsible sexual behavior of our men" (p. A15). Peggy McEvoy, AIDS policy team leader for a Caribbean program, explained that "married women face high risks because their partners are unfaithful and will not use condoms" (Relly, 2000, p. A15). If the women insisted that their husbands use condoms, "Their husbands would kick them out," McEvoy explained (Relly, 2000, p. A15). "Many women are also unaware that their husbands are having extramarital affairs," McEvoy added.
Because the causes of women's vulnerability to AIDS in the Caribbean are common in most parts of the world, I consider the global spread of AIDS to be chiefly due to sexist male behavior. Although some unknown percentage of women who die of AIDS are not necessarily victims of femicide (those who became infected by dirty needles, for example), many more are.
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According to another source, two-thirds of the people in the world who are infected with HIV/AIDS live in Africa (Shaw, 1999). The highest rates of infection in the world are currently found in seven Southern African nations, including South Africa where "At least one-fifth of the population is infected" (the UNAIDS report , cited by Perlman, June 2000, p. A6; Russell specifies 20% of adults as infected). Hence, the primary focus of this analysis will be on the particularly devastating impact of AIDS in Africa.
In sub-Saharan Africa, new figures show that 55% of all infected adults are women" (Schoofs, 1999, p. 6. And according to data compiled at UNAids "For every 10 African men with the disease there are 12 infected women" (Reuter, 1999, p. 4).
The causal relationship between male sexism and domination, genital mutilation, rape and the AIDS epidemic in Africa will now be addressed in this order.
Male Sexism and Domination and AIDS
Heterosexual males' sexist and misogynist beliefs and behavior toward females in patriarchal societies is a major cause of the spread of AIDS, and hence of increasing rates of femicide. The passage on the spread of AIDS in the Caribbean (above) gave examples of common manifestation of male sexism and male domination that can have lethal consequences for females when their male partners have HIV/AIDS
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Males who refuse to wear condoms with their female partners despite engaging in sexual relations with others (male and/or female);
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Males who engage in sex with others (male and/or female) but who fail to divulge their non-monogamous behavior to their female sex partners. This deprives these women of the opportunity to protect themselves from contracting HIV, to protect any children they may have from the same fate, and to save their own lives by refusing to engage in sexual relations with their partners.
Other examples include
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Husbands who are entitled by patriarchal law or custom to expect, demand, and/or force their wives to engage in sex with them, and who act on this conjugal right.
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Men who are ignorant of their HIV-positive condition and who do not wear condoms or refuse to wear them.
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Men who have sex with prostituted women. These women are at very high risk of having HIV/AIDS, especially if they fail to wear condoms. Many women -- including prostituted women -- do not know the importance of wearing condoms for protection and/or they accommodate their customers who may dislike or refuse to wear them. Some men are also ignorant of their importance whereas others consider it less satisfying and put their own enjoyment above women's preference and/or safety.
The women and girls who contract HIV/AIDS from their male partners because of their sexist attitudes and behavior, and/or their superior power and dominating status, are -- when they die -- victims of femicide.
Village Voice journalist Mark Schoofs (1999), who won the Pulitzer Prize in 1999 for his series of articles on AIDS in Africa, devoted one article to "Death and the Second Sex." This article on femicide provides devastating evidence of male domination in Southern Africa, and how this relates to AIDS. For example, Schoofs (1999) notes that "African women subordinate their sexual safety to men's pleasure" (p. 67). "Throughout southern Africa, where the AIDS epidemic is worse than anywhere in the world," many African women practice "dry sex" (Schoofs, 1999, p. 67) Some women dry out their vaginas with soil mixed with baboon urine, others use "detergents, salt, cotton, or shredded newspaper" (p. 67). Schoofs (1999) describes the way in which Sipewe Mhakeni dried out her vagina
Mhakeni used herbs from the Mugugudhu tree. After grinding the stem and leaf, she would mix just a pinch of the sand- colored powder with water, wrap it in a bit of nylon stocking, and insert it into her vagina for 10 to 15 minutes. The herbs swell the soft tissues of the vagina, make it hot, and dry it out. That made sex "very painful," says Mhakeni. But, she adds, "Our African husbands enjoy sex with a dry vagina. (p. 67)
Other women also reported that having dry sex was painful. Furthermore, "research shows that dry sex causes vaginal lacerations and suppresses the vagina's natural bacteria, both of which increase the likelihood of HIV infection. And some AIDS workers believe the extra friction makes condoms tear more easily" (Schoofs, 1999, p. 67).
Schoofs noted that Southern African girls "are socialized to yield sexual decision-making to men" (p. 67). Prisca Mhlolo, who was in charge of counseling at an organization for HIV-positive Zimbabweans, noted that women are not even allowed to say, "Can we have sex?" so it's even more difficult to bring up the subject of condoms. For example, Mhlolo's husband, who had infected her with AIDS, objected to her suggesting that he wear a condom when he developed open herpes sores on his penis, accusing her of having found a boyfriend.
Because women in southern Africa "are unable to negotiate sex," they have to "risk infection to please the man," Schoofs observed. He quotes Mhlolo as commenting that this situation "is part of our culture ... and our culture is part of why HIV is spreading" (p. 6. Schoofs maintains that African men "retain the mindset of polygamy" which was practiced in their traditional cultures. Now, instead of men practicing polygamy in those African nations where it is illegal, they "have many partners through commercial sex or 'sugar daddy' relationships that lack the social cohesion of traditional marriages" (p. 6.
Carael's U.N. study (September 1999) found that HIV "spread more quickly in places where girls became sexually active at an earlier age" (Shaw, 1999). According to a UNAids report, "older men, who often coerce girls into sex or buy their favours with sugar-daddy gifts, are the main source of HIV for the teenage girls" (Reuter, 1999, p. 4). For their part, some "young girls think the older men can provide for them," according to Anne Buve of the Institute of Tropical Medicine in Antwerp, Belgium (Shaw, 1999). Their relationships with older men, whether forced, coerced or bought, increases their vulnerability to contracting HIV. As Peter Piot, executive director of the Joint U.N. Program on HIV/AIDS, points out, "Gender inequality -- including women's economic dependence on men -- is a driving force of the AIDS epidemic" (Associated Press, 2000, p. A6).
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Hence, the first order of business requires educating people about the role of sexism and male domination in the spread of AIDS, and eradicating these manifestations of patriarchy. It is not enough to conduct educational campaigns that focus only on the need to avoid risky behavior, such as the failure to use a condom, the need to find out a potential sex partner's sexual history, the danger of having sex with many different partners, and the particularly high risk nature of unprotected anal sex as compared with oral or penile/vaginal sex.
http//www.dianarussell.com/aids.html
Also
Cultural Approach to HIV/AIDS Harm Reduction in Muslim Countries
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Sex as a Marital Obligation
When you say, ?I do,? you have consented to sex anytime, anyplace, anyhow.
- Dr. Josephine Kasolo, director, Women and Children?s Crisis Centre, Kampala, December 10, 2002.
Individual women, NGO representatives, and government officials all referred to the prevalence of the belief that wives have no right to deny their husbands sex. A women?s rights activist declared, ?Men proceed under the common law assumption that saying ?I do,? means that you no longer have the right to say ?I don?t.??128 Human Rights Watch interviewed numerous women who felt obligated to have unprotected sex with their husbands, even those that were adulterous. Lydia Mbakile, a thirty-six-year-old HIV-positive widow, explained ?I think women should give their husbands sex. If you say ?that is my husband? you have to finish up the duties that he has delegated to you.?
A number of government representatives stressed that married or cohabiting women appeared to be at a far greater risk of HIV infection than single women. Joyce Namulondo at the Uganda AIDS Commission concurred ?A woman properly married in the home is at a greater risk as far as HIV/AIDS is concerned, the reason being the power relations. . . . The single woman does not have a contract.?
The fact that in some cases actual violence did not take place did not alter the coercive nature of these relationships. Women?s own belief that they had no authority over sex often made it unnecessary for husbands to rape unwilling wives. Masturah Tibegwya, a Munyankore, is forty-eight and lives in Luwero. She is on her second marriage, and first got married in 1966, at about the age of 16. Between the two marriages, she has had twelve children. She says that although her first husband was violent, he never had to force her to have sex because she knew her duty
He never forced me into sex. He would beat me for other things but not sex. . . . There were other times I had sex with him when I didn?t want to. I would just do it. What could I do? It?s the Banyankore tradition. . . . In our tradition the men don?t physically force you but they don?t need to. It is the honor of your parents. I have never used a condom. It?s taboo. I am HIV-positive. I don?t know where it came from. My first husband died. He died of AIDS.
Joy Kobushingye, forty-five, told a similar story. Her first husband died of AIDS in 1992 and she tested HIV-positive the same year. She continued to have sex with him despite his extramarital affairs. ?I still had sex with him even when he had other girlfriends. What do you do? Unless you intend to break the marriage. That is not a strong reason to leave a home. . . . I don?t know about forcing. There is no negotiation. You know that you must.?
Inability to Negotiate Condom Use
Many of the women were afraid to introduce the subject of prophylactic protection for fear of being beaten either for suspecting their husbands of having extramarital affairs, or because they might be accused of adultery themselves. When they did raise the subject of condom use, violence typically ensued. Margaret Namusisi, twenty-five, moved in with her husband when she was fourteen and he was forty. She explained why she continued to have unprotected sex with him despite her desire to stop having children ?There are times when I don?t feel like and tell him to use a condom, but he doesn?t want to. I?m on family planning. That causes disputes. When I tell him to use a condom he refuses. He accuses me of having other men. He goes away and doesn?t provide. So I have sex with him so that he can look after the children and won?t fight.?
Sara Kisakye?s account of her relationship with her ex-husband is a vivid illustration of the powerlessness many women experienced as a result of violence. Kisakye, a thirty-one-year-old Muganda woman, left her husband in January 2002 as a result of his violence and extramarital affairs. She described how her husband would refuse to use condoms and how he would often beat her because she refused to have unprotected sex with him. She explained
My husband hated condom use. He never allowed it. He would beat me often. . . . He used to beat me when I refused to sleep with him. . . . He wouldn?t use a condom. He said ?when we are man and woman married, how can we use a condom?? . . . It?s a wife?s duty to have sex with her husband because that is the main reason you come together. But there should be love. . . . When I knew about his girlfriends, I feared that I would get infected with HIV. But he didn?t listen to me. I tried to insist on using a condom but he refused. So I gave in because I really feared .
Many of the women interviewed by Human Rights Watch were unable to negotiate condom use even when their husbands had tested HIV-positive. Some of these women quoted husbands that had tested HIV-positive as saying that condoms were ineffective, or even that there was no reason for them to die alone. Khadija Nankwanga?s husband died of AIDS in 1995. Before he died, he repeatedly raped her and her three co-wives, one of whom died of AIDS soon after he passed away.
Nankwanga, a forty-two-year-old Musoga, told Human Rights Watch ?In counseling they told us about condoms but he didn?t want to use them because he didn?t want to leave us alive to remarry. . . . He promised to strangle us. He wasn?t violent but with that! There was not even any discussion.?
The inability to negotiate condom use is not only a concern with regard to potential HIV infection, but is also hazardous for HIV-positive women who face the danger of reinfection by their HIV-positive husbands. Joy Kobushingye?s current husband is also HIV-positive. Despite being aware of the danger of re-infection, Kobushingye feels that the greater danger is to stop having sex with her husband. ?I don?t know what I can do about my re-infection. I don?t know if he would leave me if I asked us to stop having sex or use a condom. I have never tried it. I don?t want to try it." Margaret Namusisi?s co-wife died of AIDS two years after she moved in, and now both she and her husband are HIV-positive. Her husband will not stop having sex with her despite the fact that they have received counseling on HIV reinfection. She told us, ?Stopping sleeping with him is difficult. We have been taught about reinfection. I told him that we have to have sex once a month and use a condom but he refused.?
http//www.hrw.org/reports/2003/uganda0803/5.htm
HIV/AIDS, says Tan, is more of a gender and economic issue.
A lot of women are not in the position to deny their spouse or protect themselves, which is why at one point in time, World Health Organisation statistics showed that up to 90 per cent of women, who have the virus, got it from the husbands.
This is especially true in very poor countries, where women have no say, says Tan.
"In Malaysia, many still can't say no to sex if their husbands insist. A condom can prevent the wife from being infected. But the question is whether the husband will actually want to use a condom."
In his outreach and support programmes, Tan has encountered numerous widows and children who have been infected with HIV.
Religion plays a double-pronged role - prevention and help - in combating this issue, says Tan.
Acting as a deterrent, religion helps people to refrain from indulging in acts that will endanger themselves and others.
But religion is also about compassion.
"When someone is infected, it's our role to help that someone. We can say that what the person has done is wrong, but we cannot condemn. Religion must help to redeem."
But for that to happen, Tan says one must be armed with facts and education.
"Being religious is good, but if one doesn't know about the virus and how it's spread, he won't be able to respond in a compassionate way.
"Condemning, ostracising, discriminating and not caring for them, doesn't improve the situation any bit."
HIV/AIDS is not a punishment from God, says Tan.
"Say, a poor lady gets the virus because she cannot protect herself. A rich woman sleeps around but because she knows about AIDS and how to protect herself, she doesn't get HIV.
"Does that mean God didn't punish her but God punished a woman who slogs in the kitchen every day and does all the housework, and who had sex with the husband who got infected outside?"
http//health.asiaone.com/Health/News/Story/A1Story20080508-64052.html
HIV/AIDS in Morocco
The age group predominantly affected is from 15 to 40 years old (69 percent). Ninety percent of the HIV-positive children are infected perinatally. Males account for 70 percent of the cases. The other particulars of AIDS in Morocco are 42 percent are bachelors; 35 percent are married women; 85 percent were infected while living in Morocco; and 15 percent are recent immigrants.
Transmission modes include heterosexual, 61 percent; homosexual, 10 percent; intravenous drug use, 9 percent; multi-risk, 8 percent; transfusion, 4 percent; perinatal, 4 percent; and unknown, 4 percent. Before the 1990s, the main modes of transmission were homosexual contact and IV-drug use; at present, the dominant mode of transmission is heterosexual intercourse
http//www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/morocco.html#11
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Peace Leyna
You were the one who brought up the issue of divorce rate, suggesting a more lenient approach towards sexuality could be the reason for rising divorce rates. peace
I know. But...I didn't suggest that such a method should be upheld. I was just preoccupied with the idea thinking whether there is a causal link.
I fully agree with you that casual, meaningless sex is not a good thing at all. But you seem to be equating sex without a marriage certificate with promiscuity, loveless sex, sleeping around etc., and I strongly disagree with that. People can have a serious relationship full of love and commitment without a piece of paper stating that they are married. And people can be married but have a loveless sex life, cheat on each other and so on.
Where did i say that? I am trying argue that in a serious relationship, sex is morally and logically ok peace
Speaking of cheating ... this is slightly OT, but since the issue of AIDS and STDs has been brought up in this context, I'd like to point out that the assumption "sex wihtout marriage = spread of STDs" is wrong. Fact is, that in many countries, married women are at a very high risk of being infected with HIV through their husbands. So I believe we should leave this argument aside when talking about sex before marriage.
I also agree. The only arguments i think stand are the arguments in terms of law and children. By law i mean the protection obtained from the law.
I understand what you are saying, but in order to find out, the best way would be to actually talk to people who have first hand experience with that, rather than relying on your personal assumptions. I know people who had casual sex in the past but live in monogamous, happy relationships now. Personally, I believe the ability to love someone and be faithful to him / her is a question of maturity and integrity, and people can evolve and change during their lifetime. So I wouldn't necessarily say that having sex before marriage "damages" a person's capability for love and commitment.
I have but the outcome of the discussions i have had with such people also lead me to an approach of being careful with sex. As in waiting untill i am in a very serious relationship or marriage.
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Marriage doesn't necessarly protect one from disease and other harms, as adultery is common throughout the world. Even if one party remains faithful, they can still can get disease from their spouse.
However, sex is intended be between two trusting individuals. This is why it's so easy to catch/spread disease when you have sex with random people. I believe our creator specifically wrote the program in this fashion. Without trust--the foundation--you have nothing.I agree. This is also to a large extent my line of thought.
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Peace everyone,
159 We descended the reminder and we are protectors of it.
The ink and paper that the great reading (al-quran al-adhim) is printed on is not magical, or sacred, or holy. It doesn't save or guide anyone. Obviously it is the reminder that matters. The same principle is applied to a contract (mithaq) of marriage; although the paper it is printed on is irrelevant, it provides the kind of righteous framework needed to have a lasting, loving commitment.
First, let it be known that there is a very strong and very serious knot being tied through a marriage contract.
2235 Do not tie the knot of marriage (uqdah al-nikah) until...
421 They (the women) have taken from you (men) a very strong/serious contract.The contract is described as "ghalidh" (very strong; very serious), the same word used by the god to describe the contract that ALL the prophets made with the god in 337 and 381 - to deliver their messages to humankind and recognize Gabriel (gibril) when he came to all of them (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10190.0). So it's a big deal.
Two elements needed to keep the contractual knot tied tightly are (1) love (mawaddah) and (2) kindness (rahmah). You need both, working simultatenously, to make a marriage work.
3021 Of his signs is that he created for you from yourselves spouses, so that you may have comfort with them. And he made between you love and kindness.
People get divorced because they can't maintain (1) love and (2) kindness in their marriage.
Peace,
-David
Peace David
We are in agreement to the seriousness of a marriage oath. However what we are in disagreement is whether sex should be exclusive to marriage.
Marriage is a life long commitment. No one should pop the question before being sure. I consider sex as part of the progression of a relationship towards marriage and not as something that becomes unlocked once married. -
God has a response to everything, do you think that in the quran that when it is said that we will be punished for exceeding the limits in this world (and the hereafter) that it is in jest?
Consider why we have an AIDS epidemic, why STDs exist, the lack of harmony in societies where there are broken family structures. A child is a combination of the mother and father with some differences, it is only through knowing the mother and father that a child can really know itself properly and its position in the global landscape.
Yes but AIDS and STDs and unwanted pregnancies come from either failure to use contraception or the conraception failing. You could have an unwanted pregnancy within a marriage or and STD within a marriage if either contraception fails or you fail to use it. What is the difference? bear in mind that this is not to argue for casual sex but to argue against sex being exclusive to marriages.
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can someone provide cliff notes to this long thread.
is the OP saying that pre-marital sex is allowed in the Quran or is not prohibited?
I think the OP was saying that pre-marital sex must be allowed in some form according to the quran. And I agreed with the OP and provided points towards the thought of ma malakat aymanukum was that which is the other form of sex outside the contract of "nikah". In nikah you can only do so with monotheist women. With your ma malakat aymanukum, any women of any religion or legal state (apart from women on the outside men on the inside ).