How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

Bigmo

Peace Leyna

What is your take on 2433?

And let those who are not able to marry abstain until God enriches them of His Bounty....

What are we advised to abstain from? I orginally thought it to be marriage but that wouldn't be logical.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Thats how I read it.

unknownuser

Peace Leyna

What is your take on 2433?

And let those who are not able to marry abstain until God enriches them of His Bounty....

What are we advised to abstain from? I orginally thought it to be marriage but that wouldn't be logical.

Peace Nima

I have some comments to your question regarding 2433.

To say that the verse is talking about abstaining from marriage is like telling us that
We should not get married until we are able to marry (have the means to marry).
Which is like saying Let those who are not able to eat, not eat until they are able to eat.
Or to make it more simple Do not eat until you are able to eat. Don't we know that we should not eat
until we are able to eat? Off course we know. It is common sense.

From my understanding of 2433, it is not telling us to abstain from marriage until
we have the means/resources to marry. But it is telling us
"To abstain (be chaste) until we have the means/resources to get the means/resources to get married".
By abstaining, we abstain from sex/intimacy before marriage. We should be patient until we have the resources which enable us to marry. Until God enriches us of his bounty (2433). What do i mean by being chaste/abstain(patient)? That we should not have intimacy (intercourse) before marriage. I think this explanation is a rational explanation. You may wonder why. Here are some reasons why

Because many verses tells us to not come near lewdness (See 6 151, 733).
Because we are told to not even look at the opposite sex in a bad or horny way (2430). How can we have sex before marriage when we are told to not even look at the opposite sex in a bad or horny way? Let me give you an example. If you are told to not even mock a person verbally, then you can not say that hitting the person is okay. When you are told to not even mock the person verbally (which is something minor compared to hitting), then it is logical that hitting the person (which is a physical act) is something you ABSOLUTELY not should do. So if we are told to not even look at girls in a bad or horny way (which is something minor compared to having sex with someone), then having sex is a serious thing which we absolutely not should be done before marriage.

Verse 2430, and other verses, tells us to guard our private parts (before marriage). To guard something is to protect it. To not hurt it, not use it. If you guard a castle, you do not let anyone come into the castle that are not allowed to come in.

Because if you do not have the means/resources to get married/commited, by being intimate with a girl, this may lead to unwanted pregnancy, and when you and your partner get a child you will not have the money for child support.
Because intimacy can lead to breaking someones heart (hurting them) if you leave them. Because if you are not commited you are not obligated to stay with your partner and then you might leave at any moment. And the Quran tells us to not hurt people. We should be kind to people. If someone hurt another person, they hurt themselves. It will affect their Soul.
Because if you do not have the means to get married, it is better to focus on the other laws of the Quran which tells us to change ourselves, and to contribute to the society (doing good). Contribution is more important than getting married.

Quran 6415
Your money and children are a test, and with God is a great recompense.

Quran 314
It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons, and ornaments made from gold and silver, and trained horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best abode.

No one dies or gets hurt if they don't have intercourse before marriage, or if they don't get married today or even the next 10 years, but thousands of people starve, get diseases and die everyday because of poverty in their countries. And even in rich countries, many people need support and help. Many people in the west have psychological problems and physical problems (they are not healthy). Listen to this metaphor. If you a guy is working for a store each tuesday, and he starts to work 12 am, and the clock is 10 am, and it takes at least to hours to drive to the store. Then he has to start to drive before 10 am if he want to arrive on time. So if he starts to drive to the store at 9 am, but gets trouble with the engine of his car at 9.30, he has to immediately fix the engine and then drive to the store if he wants to arrive on time. He can not leave the car, take a fotball he has in his car and start to play soccer with strangers in the street outside his car for 3 hours. There is no time for enjoyment at that moment, because fixing the car and arriving his work on time is more important. If he plays soccer 3 hours, then it is obvious he will be late for his work. He has to arrive at his work at 12 am, and then work until his job is finished at 3 am, and then, only then he can do what he want to play soccer with people. First you work, then you get the time to reward yourself. Contribution is more important than marriage. Marriage is great, but people should be patient. There are more important things to focus on first. We will hopefully become commited when the time is right. But i think we should not chase after something when there are more important things to do first. If we go after something when the time is not rights, it slowly gain control our life and suddenly transform the door of freedom into a heavy door of lust that will be impossible to open, so that we will be trapped in room of weakness, in the house of despair.

unknownuser

Peace Leyna )

You are right. But I was not so much arguing from a Qur'anic viewpoint but addressing the argument that a relationship without a marriage contract automatically means people are not serious / not dedicated to each other / abusing their partner and so on.

Ahh, i see. I misunderstood then. At first, I thought you was adressing the argument from a Quranic viewpoint. I think it's no problem that we express ourselves. Not everything we say have to be related to the Quran. I think it is actually interesting to hear the opinions and thoughts of members on this forum )

I know, some people think that marriage will automatically save them from all of their problems and make them happy and loyal. Those who think marriage is the solution to most problems or all problems are living in a fantasy land. Marriage just like everything else can be used both positively and negatively.

I know the Qur'an mentions various things in regards to marriage, such as mahr etc. But personally, I am not sure if those rules should be applied nowadays exactly as they were applied back then. So I am rather looking at the intention behind them. The intention was to protect families, protect women from being kicked out on the street without means to support themselves, make sure that lineage is being protected etc.

You say you are not sure if those rules should be applied nowadays exactly as they were applied back then. And i can relate to this understanding. I understand this interpretation, because the world has changed a lot since back then. However, in my opinion, in an ideal society those rules should be applied. Because the Quran is from the creator, and it is timeless, and it is the natural system of mankind.

I think the rules in the Quran are flexible, and adaptable, therefore they can be applied at all times. Just like oxygen has existed for millions of years, and still consists of H20, and still has not changed, i think the Quranic rules are also meant to be applied at all times. They can not be changed, but they can bended to fit in. Let me give you a metaphor. Water is flexible, if you put water in cup, on a table or in the refrigarator, it changes its form, but it do not change what it consist of. It is still water. Whether water is in a cup, on a table or in a refrigerator, it still consists of H20. So it changes its form, but not what it consists of which is H20. So we can see that water is higly flexible. Another example is the law of gravity, it lasts at all times. I believe the Quranic laws/rules are also higly flexible and last at all times. Or to be more clear, as long as mankind exists, if you will. I think there is no change in the system of allah

Quran 1777
Such was the way of those whom We had sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.

Nowadays many countries have laws that serve this purpose very well. Plus, women are able to support themselves, they don't depend on a man to provide for them materially. And, as I mentioned before, there are laws forcing fathers to pay child support regardless of the marital status. In fact, if you take a look at countries applying secular law versus countries applying "sharia law", it becomes very obvious that the former protects women and children much better.

You are right, many countries have laws that serve this purpose well. And i think it is great that women can support themselves. I am for this. I think that neither men or women should be dependendent on eachother. We are born free. And i agree that secular law is much better than the laws of sharia. Actually, i don't support sharia at all. Sharia law is not based on Quran alone or the true teachings of the Quran. And yes, it is obvious that secular law protects women and children more. But no secular laws protects women and children as the laws in the Quran. The system of islam (not religion) in the Quran, have laws in it that are ahead of time and have not even been established in secular countries. It may take hundreds of years before these laws will be accepted, appreciated, and established. The Quranic system is superior to all man-made systems. The Quranic system is superior to Capitalism, Communism, Humanism, and even Democracy. You see, in life there are two things. There are things which are god-made, and things which are man-made. Things which are made by god will always be more advanced than things which are made by humans. For example, today we look at the helicopter and think that this invention is amazing, original and radical. But the design of the helicopter is copyed by the design of the dragonfly. As you know, dragonflies have wings that spin in circles just like the wings of the helicopter. The complex system of the wings and its rotation has existed in nature for millions of years. It has existed even before human beings created helicopters. Scientists are still studying the wings of the dragonfly, because still there are things they can learn from it. That which is made by our creator is always more advanced than that which human beings make. This is the truth.

David, if you've read some of my other posts on this board, you will see that I don't believe the majority is always right, quite the opposite!

I'm glad that you don't believe that majority is always right. You seem like an open-minded girl, which i think is good. How old are you? And are you a convert? just curious.

I think we should gather knowledge at all times in life. Knowledge leads to self realization, and then we will transform ourselves and become what we are supposed to be reach our dreams and unleash our potentials.

unknownuser

Peace nima

I look forward to hear your thoughts and views on my last post.

liquiddharma

Are they? Do you have statistics for that?

Yes, this is well known

The article (There's a paywall)
http//www.economist.com/world/united-states/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_JNTRTNS

Link behind the paywall
http//cpffoundation.org/frayedKnot.html

Co-habiting couples have the same number of hands as married couples, so they ought to make equally good parents. Many do, but on average the children of co-habiting couples do worse by nearly every measure. One reason is that such relationships are less stable than marriages. In America, they last about two years on average. About half end in marriage. But those who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce.

Many people will find this surprising. A survey of teenagers by the University of Michigan found that 64% of boys and 57% of girls agreed that ?it is usually a good idea for a couple to live together before getting married in order to find out whether they really get along.? Research suggests otherwise. Two-thirds of American children born to co-habiting parents who later marry will see their parents split up by the time they are ten. Those born within wedlock face only half that risk.

The likeliest explanation is inertia, says Scott Stanley of the Centre for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver, Colorado. Couples start living together because it is more fun (and cheaper) than living apart. One partner may see this as a prelude to marriage. The other?usually the man?may see it as something more temporary. Since no explicit commitment is made, it is easier to drift into living together than it is to drift into a marriage. But once a couple is living together, it is harder to split up than if they were merely dating. So ?many of these men end up married to women they would not have married if they hadn't been living together,? says Mr Stanley, co-author of a paper called ?Sliding versus deciding?.

Think about it logically - this is about the psychology of motivation - when a person promises to do something, it makes it more likely they will follow through. Whey make that promise in front of friends and family, that is every stronger motivation. The way peer pressure influences human beings is very well established. That's the whole point of marriage.

nimnimak_11

Peace David

To say that the verse is talking about abstaining from marriage is like telling us that
We should not get married until we are able to marry (have the means to marry).
Which is like saying Let those who are not able to eat, not eat until they are able to eat.
Or to make it more simple Do not eat until you are able to eat. Don't we know that we should not eat
until we are able to eat? Off course we know. It is common sense.

From my understanding of 2433, it is not telling us to abstain from marriage until
we have the means/resources to marry. But it is telling us
"To abstain (be chaste) until we have the means/resources to get the means/resources to get married".
By abstaining, we abstain from sex/intimacy before marriage. We should be patient until we have the resources which enable us to marry. Until God enriches us of his bounty (2433). What do i mean by being chaste/abstain(patient)? That we should not have intimacy (intercourse) before marriage. I think this explanation is a rational explanation.

I agree that the word abstain in 2433 applies to sex but doubt that it applies to other things such as sleeping together or other matters which does not = sex.

Because many verses tells us to not come near lewdness (See 6 151, 733).

Yes but i sincerely doubt that sleeping with your girlfriend whom you've know for a while can qualify as lewdness. I would not think sex would count as lewdness but 2433 does imply this to be exclusive to marriage.

Because we are told to not even look at the opposite sex in a bad or horny way (2430). How can we have sex before marriage when we are told to not even look at the opposite sex in a bad or horny way? Let me give you an example. If you are told to not even mock a person verbally, then you can not say that hitting the person is okay. When you are told to not even mock the person verbally (which is something minor compared to hitting), then it is logical that hitting the person (which is a physical act) is something you ABSOLUTELY not should do. So if we are told to not even look at girls in a bad or horny way (which is something minor compared to having sex with someone), then having sex is a serious thing which we absolutely not should be done before marriage.

OF COURSE I AGREE. How can you look at some one on the street or someone whom you are not in a relationship with in that way?! But if your with someone (fiance/girlfriend) then it's completely different is it not? We don't lower our gaze with our zawj. Equally we don't lower our gaze with our MMA (whom i still think has some association with being a fiance or girlfriend amongst other things)

Verse 2430, and other verses, tells us to guard our private parts (before marriage). To guard something is to protect it. To not hurt it, not use it. If you guard a castle, you do not let anyone come into the castle that are not allowed to come in.

Yes but verse 235-6 make zawj and MMA an exception to this as we can unguard our private parts to them. So parts can be unguraded to the MMA also which i take to possibly mean a g/f or fiance.

Because if you do not have the means/resources to get married/commited, by being intimate with a girl, this may lead to unwanted pregnancy, and when you and your partner get a child you will not have the money for child support.

Yes if you have unprotected sex, most likely this will = pregnancy. If you have protected sex there is still a chance of pregnancy (this could happen in marriages also as Leyna pointed out) so obviously you should do everything within your power to prevent pregnancy untill you are ready for a child. Extreme measures (perhaps necessary) would mean to abstain from sex. But other options are still open.

Because intimacy can lead to breaking someones heart (hurting them) if you leave them. Because if you are not commited you are not obligated to stay with your partner and then you might leave at any moment. And the Quran tells us to not hurt people. We should be kind to people. If someone hurt another person, they hurt themselves. It will affect their Soul.

You can do the same in marriage. You can break someone's heart then. If you start a relationship, you are discovering whether this person is right for you and you are trying to get closer to them. In all this commitment is involved and you should morally be commited to try and make things work. This commitment is not exclusive to marriage. Howver the commitment in marriage implies a more certain and serious commitment which follows after you become close to someone enough to propose to them.

Because if you do not have the means to get married, it is better to focus on the other laws of the Quran which tells us to change ourselves, and to contribute to the society (doing good). Contribution is more important than getting married.

Quran advises us to marry. It is an important part of life IMO. It is part of the progression of character. It adds a new field to progress in. Such as being a good spouse or the possibility of being a good father.

Quran 6415
Your money and children are a test, and with God is a great recompense.

All of this life is a test. How you are as a father and a husband is amongst it. If sincerely someone does not have the means to marry, then they cannot be blamed. But if someone does have the means to marry but refuses or does not try hard enough, whilst not necessarily worthy of blame, they are still missing out on something important. Kind of like a person having the opportunity to go and study and progress academically to become let's say an astronomer but not doing so.

Quran 314
It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons, and ornaments made from gold and silver, and trained horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best abode.

No one dies or gets hurt if they don't have intercourse before marriage, or if they don't get married today or even the next 10 years, but thousands of people starve, get diseases and die everyday because of poverty in their countries. And even in rich countries, many people need support and help. Many people in the west have psychological problems and physical problems (they are not healthy). Listen to this metaphor. If you a guy is working for a store each tuesday, and he starts to work 12 am, and the clock is 10 am, and it takes at least to hours to drive to the store. Then he has to start to drive before 10 am if he want to arrive on time. So if he starts to drive to the store at 9 am, but gets trouble with the engine of his car at 9.30, he has to immediately fix the engine and then drive to the store if he wants to arrive on time. He can not leave the car, take a fotball he has in his car and start to play soccer with strangers in the street outside his car for 3 hours. There is no time for enjoyment at that moment, because fixing the car and arriving his work on time is more important. If he plays soccer 3 hours, then it is obvious he will be late for his work. He has to arrive at his work at 12 am, and then work until his job is finished at 3 am, and then, only then he can do what he want to play soccer with people. First you work, then you get the time to reward yourself. Contribution is more important than marriage. Marriage is great, but people should be patient. There are more important things to focus on first. We will hopefully become commited when the time is right. But i think we should not chase after something when there are more important things to do first. If we go after something when the time is not rights, it slowly gain control our life and suddenly transform the door of freedom into a heavy door of lust that will be impossible to open, so that we will be trapped in room of weakness, in the house of despair.

People should be patient as it is a good attribute. But patience should not get in the way of motivation and determination. In the case of someone who is studying to be an astronomer, they should go out and look for a course in astronomy as soon as they have the money for the course. If they don't have the money, they should put time and effort in to making that money. Now let's say that this individual wants to study at harvard but he can't afford. There are other options available to him. Though not as good as harvard, still good options.

My point with other options is that sometimes it's wiser not to wait. You have to weigh things out. In the case of harvard, this person has already spent x years saving up. How much longer is he gonna wait. He still has to study and then get the job. Once he gets the job then how much progress is available to be made with respect to the amount of time he has left?

Similarly with marriage. Shoudn't be left till to late. Should not be stingy nor the opposite to the extent that you just go for any female. IMO middle ground for when searching for someone. So patience would still apply if you have a middle ground approach.

If we were to take MMAs as Girlfriends or fiances, then close physical relations are possible (excluding sex). In the other thread, i noticed you were against physical relations unless with spouse. Considering the topic of MMA, what is your view on this?

nimnimak_11

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Thats how I read it.

But what is the kitchen in this case?
If you can't find/don't have the means for marriage, then abstain....

Can it be anything other than sex? It may even entail all forms of relations with a girl but then what becomes of the MMA?

Heres how i view it now.

We can unguard parts to MMA 235-6 (meaning we can even have sex)
This is to some extent limited by 2433 (........abstain.........)

Now considering the verses on divorce and pregnancy and how mostly they are associated with zawj with the exception of one verse. Also considering the issue of divorce in which not having sex or having sex will effect the process of divorce significantly, I think that all acts that you can do with your zawj, you can do with your MMA with the exception of sex. and by sex i am talking of actual penetration with no protection. Which would make it questionable as to whether the use of condoms and other forms of protection, would still qualify it as sex in Quranic fashion.

Honestly i'd think yes becuase there is still the chance of pregnancy.

So overall at the moment i think that the abstain in 2433 referes to any act that would result in pregnancy.

unknownuser

Peace Nima

I agree that the word abstain in 2433 applies to sex but doubt that it applies to other things such as sleeping together or other matters which does not = sex.

I disagree. I think it applies to more than just sex. From my understanding of 2433 and other verses, being chaste/abstaining, is more than just sex. When we look at the verses in Quran and intergrate them, we will understand that being chaste/abstaining is a mentality. And it's an integrated mentality, not just about sex( which is a one-dimensional view).

Yes but i sincerely doubt that sleeping with your girlfriend whom you've know for a while can qualify as lewdness. I would not think sex would count as lewdness but 2433 does imply this to be exclusive to marriage.

It's good that you have accepted that sex is to be exclusive to marriage. And when it comes to knowing someone, this is what i think Knowing someone for a while does not count if you do not make a commitment. You can know an employer in a store for 20 years, but if you do not have money, you can not get any products. If he give you something, he is breaking the rules. Rules are rules. Rules should be followed. And rules are the same for everyone.

OF COURSE I AGREE. How can you look at some one on the street or someone whom you are not in a relationship with in that way?! But if your with someone (fiance/girlfriend) then it's completely different is it not? We don't lower our gaze with our zawj. Equally we don't lower our gaze with our MMA (whom i still think has some association with being a fiance or girlfriend amongst other things)

I agree with you, except when it comes to girlfriend. The word girlfriend and the concept of having a relationship don't exist in the Quran.

Yes but verse 235-6 make zawj and MMA an exception to this as we can unguard our private parts to them. So parts can be unguraded to the MMA also which i take to possibly mean a g/f or fiance.

I take it to mean fiance, and to mean other things.

Yes if you have unprotected sex, most likely this will = pregnancy. If you have protected sex there is still a chance of pregnancy (this could happen in marriages also as Leyna pointed out) so obviously you should do everything within your power to prevent pregnancy untill you are ready for a child. Extreme measures (perhaps necessary) would mean to abstain from sex. But other options are still open.

Okay.

You can do the same in marriage. You can break someone's heart then. If you start a relationship, you are discovering whether this person is right for you and you are trying to get closer to them. In all this commitment is involved and you should morally be commited to try and make things work. This commitment is not exclusive to marriage. Howver the commitment in marriage implies a more certain and serious commitment which follows after you become close to someone enough to propose to them.

You do not need to have a relationship to discover if someone is right for you. First you get a fiance, then you get the resources, then you get married with her. You do not need to have a physical relationship to get close to someone.

Quran advises us to marry. It is an important part of life IMO. It is part of the progression of character. It adds a new field to progress in. Such as being a good spouse or the possibility of being a good father.

Good points. I agree.

All of this life is a test. How you are as a father and a husband is amongst it. If sincerely someone does not have the means to marry, then they cannot be blamed. But if someone does have the means to marry but refuses or does not try hard enough, whilst not necessarily worthy of blame, they are still missing out on something important. Kind of like a person having the opportunity to go and study and progress academically to become let's say an astronomer but not doing so.

Good point.

People should be patient as it is a good attribute. But patience should not get in the way of motivation and determination. In the case of someone who is studying to be an astronomer, they should go out and look for a course in astronomy as soon as they have the money for the course. If they don't have the money, they should put time and effort in to making that money. Now let's say that this individual wants to study at harvard but he can't afford. There are other options available to him. Though not as good as harvard, still good options.

Ahh, so you are saying that there are other options than marriage/commitment available. If i read between the lines, you are saying that the options available will be physical relationships or sleeping instead of having sex. I don't believe in these options. I think people should get engaged and then get married.

Similarly with marriage. Shoudn't be left till to late. Should not be stingy nor the opposite to the extent that you just go for any female. IMO middle ground for when searching for someone. So patience would still apply if you have a middle ground approach.

I agree.

If we were to take MMAs as Girlfriends or fiances, then close physical relations are possible (excluding sex). In the other thread, i noticed you were against physical relations unless with spouse. Considering the topic of MMA, what is your view on this?

In life, we can not fill a pot with a new substance if it is already full with an old substance. I have already given my view on MMA, on the thread "Having relationships not compatble with the Quran?". However, my view on MMA has changed. Not much, but changed. So maybe i will explain my view on MMA another time.

nimnimak_11

Peace Nima

I disagree. I think it applies to more than just sex. From my understanding of 2433 and other verses, being chaste/abstaining, is more than just sex. When we look at the verses in Quran and intergrate them, we will understand that being chaste/abstaining is a mentality. And it's an integrated mentality, not just about sex( which is a one-dimensional view).

Other verses talk of being chaste and guarding our private parts to others. This however is an exception to MMAs and zawjs. I've not made a definate decision on what i think an MMA is but at the moment, i consider the possiblity that it could mean girlfriend as in a relationship with a girlfriend. If you take it to mean finace, then may i ask why you would think it a fiance but not girlfriend?

You do not need to have a relationship to discover if someone is right for you. First you get a fiance, then you get the resources, then you get married with her. You do not need to have a physical relationship to get close to someone.

You do not necessarily even need to look at the person to see if they are right for you. But the question is why should we not if it not be forbidden?
Similarly why should a couple not have a physical relationship (excluding sex) when they are close enough or comfortable enough with each other and both mutually want it if it is not restricted in the Quran?

Ahh, so you are saying that there are other options than marriage/commitment available. If i read between the lines, you are saying that the options available will be physical relationships or sleeping instead of having sex. I don't believe in these options. I think people should get engaged and then get married.

No what i meant was that an approach in which where we think by waiting for the perfect person we are being patient, is wrong. We are not being patient, we are being lazy or lacking in determination or being too stingy in such cases IMO. That is what i meant. Whilst we are young, we should be meeting girls and searching for someone whom we could love and spend the rest of our lives with IMO. If leave it till late, it is a mistake IMO.

In life, we can not fill a pot with a new substance if it is already full with an old substance. I have already given my view on MMA, on the thread "Having relationships not compatble with the Quran?". However, my view on MMA has changed. Not much, but changed. So maybe i will explain my view on MMA another time.

No problem. I have not yet made a solid decision on MMA yet. There are about 3 verses which convey differently to MMA being finaces or girlfriends although i feel the other verses all point to MMA being possibly a girlfriend or an MMA as well as other things.

unknownuser

Peace Nima

In your last post you asked two questions. I don't have any comments to them at the moment. I have explained my views on the thread "Having relationship before marriage?". You may wish to read the posts in that thread one more time if you want to learn more about my views and arguments and why i believe what i believe. My time is valuable, so i consider myself finished with the topic of marriage and relationships for now. I think there are more important things in life to do than to use so much time on those topics (when i have gotten the answers i need to know). I think it is good that you ask questions, and it is important with discussion. However, i am not a supporter of rationalization. Looking to find the concept of girlfriend in the Quran is rationalization. Making a conclusion, then looking for the evidence = Rationalization. Finding the evidence then looking for a conclusion = Reasoning. Look at the superstitions and falsehoods people believe. They believe in code 19, they believe vaccines being good for your health and that the theory of evolution is flawless. You know why? Because they rationalize. They make a conclusion first, then they look for the evidence. And when the evidence don't fit into their conclusions, they dismiss it. They base their understanding on superstition and fantasy instead of facts and reality. And they do not look for arguments for and against and then make an opinion. They have an opinion and ignore the arguments which are against that opinion. They only accept the arguments which support their opinion.

When it comes to their decisions in life, most people rationalize. And i must admit that i have been guilty of rationalization as well in the past. But when it comes to quran, or knowledge, i think there is no excuse. I believe we must do our best when studying the quran or when we gain knowledge. We should base our conclusions on evidence. Because if we look for something that can not be found, we will look forever. And it will waste our valuable time.

nimnimak_11

Peace Nima

In your last post you asked two questions. I don't have any comments to them at the moment. I have explained my views on the thread "Having relationship before marriage?". You may wish to read the posts in that thread one more time if you want to learn more about my view and arguments and why i believe what i believe. My time is valuable, so i consider myself finished with the topic of marriage and relationships for now. I think there are more important things in life to do than to use so much time on those topics (when i have gotten the answers i need to know). I think it is good that you ask questions, and it is important with discussion. However, i am not a supporter of rationalization. Looking to find the concept of girlfriend in the Quran is rationalization. Making a conclusion, then looking for the evidence = Rationalization. Finding the evidence then looking for a conclusion = Reasoning. Look at what people believe. They believe in code 19, they believe in superstition like vaccines being good for your health and the theory of evolution being flawless. You know why? Because they rationalize. They make a conclusion first, then they look for the evidence. And when the evidence don't fit into their conclusions, they dismiss it. They base their understanding on superstition and fantsasy instead of facts and reality. And they do not look for arguments for and against and then make an opinion. They have an opinion and ignore the arguments which are against that opinion. They only accept the arguments which support their opinion. But this way of thinking is wrong.

Most people rationalize when it comes to their decisions in life. And i must admit that i have been guilty of rationalization as well in the past. But when it comes to quran, or knowledge, i think there is no excuse. I believe we must do our best when studying the quran and when we gain knowledge. We should base our conclusions on evidence. Because if we look for something that can not be found, we will look forever. And it will waste our valuable time.

Peace David

I used the verses of the Quran to back my points. We cannot make the assumption that physical relations with girlfriends are forbidden unless we see verses that imply this. What is wrong with this statement? Why should we be determined to side MMA as a finace when there is no obligation for us to do so nor is there any verse that suggests doing so would count towards a good deed.

I have read your posts in the other thread you began and feel i am fairly familiar with your views. We make our own choices and are accountable for them.
You advised me not to conform the Quran to my beliefs and that to confrom my beliefs to the Quran. To a good degree, I would advise the same. Never approach anything with preconcieved notions. So if you see the word chaste, do not assume that it implies 0 physical relations UNTILL you come across evidence either in the scripture (and if not there) then the heart and reasoning. Similiarly if you come across the phrase MMA don't assume it means fiance or girlfriend or slave untill you see evidence for such things.

unknownuser

I agree that we should not make forbidden something which is not forbidden. that is exactly why i said in my last post on the thread about relationships that i have not said that physical relationships are forbidden before marriage. I only believe sex is not allowed before marriage. But i believe physical relationships are not compatible with islam. You may wish to read my last post on the thread "Having relationships not compatible with Quran". There is a difference between something being forbidden, and something being not compatible.

nimnimak_11

I agree that we should not make forbidden something which is not forbidden. that is exactly why i said in my last post on the thread about relationships that i have not said that physical relationships are forbidden before marriage. I only believe sex is not allowed before marriage. But i believe physical relationships are not compatible with islam. You may wish to read my last post on the thread "Having relationships not compatible with Quran". There is a difference between something being forbidden, and something being not compatible.

Physical relations not being compatible in Islam would have to at least imply that there are certain verses which give such an implication. With respect to MMAs I have come across none. I went back and saw your last post, but look back at them and tell me where do you see anything that implies we should not have a physical realtionship with an MMA? Surely this incompatibility comes from somewhere it there is one right? But where?

Do not forget your agreement with the idea of conforming one's beliefs to the scripture and not the other way round.
If there is a verse that you feel implies that physical relations with MMAs are imcompatible with Islam, please point out. But the ones you quoted in your last post on the other thread don't. If you still feel they do, point to the specific part you feel it does and should you want, we can discuss from there.

The only way i can see physical relations prior to marriage being unquranic, is if MMAs did not=girlfirends and this may be the case though i feel this unlikely.

unknownuser

Peace Nima.

I have already explained my views. I don't like to use more time than necessary on a topic. My time is valuable and i have to focus on other things in my life that are more important. Instead of asking me more questions, do your own research. I recommend reading articles and books about the topics of of marriage and relationship in quran. Many of the scholars of islam have written explanations about marriage and relationships between men and women. They have explained those topics in depth. Read the explanations of at least 5 scholars.

The only way i can see physical relations prior to marriage being unquranic, is if MMAs did not=girlfirends and this may be the case though i feel this unlikely.

Exactly. From my understanding MMA's are not girlfriends.

Leyna

Many of the scholars of islam have written explanations about marriage and relationships between men and women. They have explained those topics in depth

Personally, I find most texts on the subject written by traditional Islamic scholars pretty depressing. It's always the same blabla ... that women should stay at home and take care of household and children because that is supposedly their divinely ordained role in life. Husbands are supposed to earn money, make important decisions and be the "heads of the household" because they are supposedly stronger, more intelligent, more rational and so on. Not to mention all this crap about women having to be obedient to their husbands and so on ...

nope

unknownuser

Salam Leyna.

Who said traditional scholars? And who asked for your opinion? Do you think the world revolves around you? lol. P
Just joking...

When i said scholars, i did not mean traditional scholars. By scholars i mean people like Tariq ramadan, Mirza Tahir, Dr Fathi osman, Dr Sayed abdul, G.A. etc...

By the way, i asked you two questions in my last post to you in this thread. I recommend answering them. lol.

Leyna

And who asked for your opinion? Do you think the world revolves around you? lol. P

http//www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/traurig/sad-smiley-068.gif

When i said scholars, i did not mean traditional scholars. By scholars i mean people like Tariq ramadan, Mirza Tahir, Dr Fathi osman, Dr Sayed abdul, G.A. etc...

Okay. I misunderstood you then, because you wrote "many of the scholars of Islam". And most of the scholars are more or less traditionally oriented.

But I'll check out the views of some of those you mentioned above.

By the way, i asked you two questions in my last post to you in this thread. I recommend answering them. lol.

Oops, sorry! I didn't intentionally avoid answering any questions. Will go back and check. peace

nimnimak_11

Peace Nima.

I have already explained my views. I don't like to use more time than necessary on a topic. My time is valuable and i have to focus on other things in my life that are more important. Instead of asking me more questions, do your own research. I recommend reading articles and books about the topics of of marriage and relationship in quran. Many of the scholars of islam have written explanations about marriage and relationships between men and women. They have explained those topics in depth. Read the explanations of at least 5 scholars.

Exactly. From my understanding MMA's are not girlfriends.

Peace David

My questions were not intended for me. They were directed at you as you were making claims without backing them bro. If you look at my responses to you, I used verses to back up my points about MMAs and my understanding of them. You directed me to your old post and I then direct you to your own old post and asked you for proof.

unknownuser

Peace David

My questions were not intended for me. They were directed at you as you were making claims without backing them bro. If you look at my responses to you, I used verses to back up my points about MMAs and my understanding of them. You directed me to your old post and I then direct you to your own old post and asked you for proof.

I have backed up my claim with quranic verses in the last post in that thread. Read the post one more time.

liquiddharma

Personally, I find most texts on the subject written by traditional Islamic scholars pretty depressing. It's always the same blabla ... that women should stay at home and take care of household and children because that is supposedly their divinely ordained role in life. Husbands are supposed to earn money, make important decisions and be the "heads of the household" because they are supposedly stronger, more intelligent, more rational and so on. Not to mention all this crap about women having to be obedient to their husbands and so on ...

nope

I agree the phallocratic mind set of conservative muslims is a serious obstacle. But I don't think it follows that marriage - being public promises of faithfulness - is part of the sexist tradition.

Progress in history has been all about making relationships more formal, not less formal. Business used to just be about verbal agreement, now it is much more formalised with courts laying down complex rules. Sexual relationships have to catch up some day. Not in the sense of bringing money into it, no! But in the sense of requiring couples to talk to each other, have common expectations, ending secret relationships so that commitments are public and obligations clear - i.e. marriage.

by the way you might have missed my post on the last page

Are they? Do you have statistics for that?

Yes, this is well known

The article (There's a paywall)
http//www.economist.com/world/united-states/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_JNTRTNS

Link behind the paywall
http//cpffoundation.org/frayedKnot.html

Co-habiting couples have the same number of hands as married couples, so they ought to make equally good parents. Many do, but on average the children of co-habiting couples do worse by nearly every measure. One reason is that such relationships are less stable than marriages. In America, they last about two years on average. About half end in marriage. But those who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce.

Many people will find this surprising. A survey of teenagers by the University of Michigan found that 64% of boys and 57% of girls agreed that ?it is usually a good idea for a couple to live together before getting married in order to find out whether they really get along.? Research suggests otherwise. Two-thirds of American children born to co-habiting parents who later marry will see their parents split up by the time they are ten. Those born within wedlock face only half that risk.

The likeliest explanation is inertia, says Scott Stanley of the Centre for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver, Colorado. Couples start living together because it is more fun (and cheaper) than living apart. One partner may see this as a prelude to marriage. The other?usually the man?may see it as something more temporary. Since no explicit commitment is made, it is easier to drift into living together than it is to drift into a marriage. But once a couple is living together, it is harder to split up than if they were merely dating. So ?many of these men end up married to women they would not have married if they hadn't been living together,? says Mr Stanley, co-author of a paper called ?Sliding versus deciding?.

Think about it logically - this is about the psychology of motivation - when a person promises to do something, it makes it more likely they will follow through. Whey make that promise in front of friends and family, that is every stronger motivation. The way peer pressure influences human beings is very well established. That's the whole point of marriage.