If Allah wants things to be easy for us, why so much confusion about salat?
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Hahaha Wakas you really are a master of inferring what you want, and then being arrogant about it.
You have zero courtesy, and have made this debate into an unpleasurable one through the use of ad hominems, one after the other.
You repeatedly accuse me of not knowing how to read properly. Cut it out. It's arrogant, and makes you look like an infant in a schoolyard.
But getting emotionally antagonized and thus verbally aggressive are typical signs of a weak mind - and poor debating skills.
I suggest you mature a little bit, and keep to the facts, ad hominems are weakening your arguments, not mine.
Also, I took my time to respond because I have a life and plenty of work, and cannot therefore be sitting in front of the internet all day waiting for your responses. Not wealthy in the personal life are we wakas?
But thanks for your concern, you've clearly been watching the clock waiting for my response
First of all,
Please show the above to any Arabic speaker, let us know what they say.
I AM an Arabic speaker. Are you? What is YOUR mother tongue?
Also, I showed that response to a friend, also fluent in Arabic, and 100% Arab, simply because his Arabic is better than mine.There are two Arabic speakers for you, so please share with us your background, since you seem to be obsessed with it.
Secondly,
I admit I wasn't using idiomatic correctly. I was trying to express that kharruu lil2adhqaani is not entirely idiomatic if one still falls to the ground, which isn't correct, as an idiomatic expression is any statement where the meaning cannot be inferred from the literal order of words. So yes, my mistake, it IS an idiomatic expression. And that does not change the meanings I have described.
You misread. It is "khrr" is redundant because one cannot prostrate without falling first. I guess your only recourse is to say we are meant to do an abrupt or violent fall when we prostrate.
God says that we should do sujood when we are reminded of the Quran (8421)
He also says that we should kharruu sujjadan when we are reminded of the Quran.I punch the man in the face.
I swung my body, punching the man in the face.Simple Wakas, try to keep up.
If "fall to the chin" is an idiomatic expression, then it would be "fall to the chin acknowledging/recognizing" (i.e. acknowledge completely / to the utmost). Simple.
No.
YOU are making it mean "fall to the chin". It does not have to mean "fall to the chin acknowledging" - it may mean "fall down acknowledging"We are provided with no evidence other than your stubborn insistence that chin MUST be taken literally in every case.
Lane correctly states "chin" but inserts "ground" in his 1st rendering, then in his 2nd rendering since it applies to trees and everyone knows trees have no chin, he eliminates it and inserts "ground" instead.
You accuse me of not being able to read, and then UTTERLY omit the most important part of Lane's definition (that I mentioned 3 times now). But that isn't surprising when you really want it to mean something.
Lane render dhaqn as chin.
Lane then renders dhaqn as ground in his 2nd rendering. So far so good.
Then you either purposely omit, or fail to read"and, of a stone, kabbahu-l-sailu lidhaqnihi The torrent overturned it."
So in his 3rd rendering, he shows us that the word "chin" is not important in this idiomatic phrase.
Do trees have chins yes or no?
Hahaha, of course they don't' have chins, which supports my answer 100%
It tells us that the Arabic phrase "kharruu li2adhqaanihim" does not translate to"fall to the chin" in English. It translates to "they came crashing down". You are utterly lacking in language skills if you cannot comprehend this fact.Lane is clearly giving us the idiomatic meaning, but what he doesn't explicitly state, which Mustansir Mir does is that the phrase "fall to the chin" is the literal rendering but it is an idiomatic expression and can be applied to trees if one understands the idiom.
In your haste to prove yourself correct, you've forgotten to make sense.
You are trying to disagree and agree with me at the same time.
The phrase "fall to the chin" can be applied to trees, it can also be applied to stones, human beings, buildings, and any other object that falls, or falls over.You said it yourself, TREES HAVE NO CHINS, then why do you insist on translating chin differently each time?
And why do you ignore his 3rd rendering each time?
Is it because he DOESN'T TRANSLATE CHIN?Stop running around, and address this point, which I've raised 3 times now.
Please show the above to any Arabic speaker, let us know what they say.
Well firstly, I'll ignore your weak sarcasm.
Secondly, I have a distant friend who is an expert in Arabic linguistics.
She used to run this blog http//arabicgems.wordpress.com/
She has a BA and an MA in Arabic linguistics, specializing in etymology
I've emailed her about this, and hopefully she can provide us with a response soon.For sake of argument, let's say it does not make sense, where is your proving that the prophets/messengers did as AQ said to do? i.e. when you hear God's signs "fall to the chin prostrating" / "physically prostrate" (or however you interpret it).
You cannot provide any evidence because there is none. Simple.You seem to have a problem understanding simple things, once you've stubbornly set your mind on something.
Let me ask you a question instead, does every commandment in the Quran need an example from an actual person?
Because God tells us to physically prostrate upon hearing His words in 8421, 1958, and 32158421 says to make sujood
1958 says kharruu sujjadan. Which means they 'fell whilst making sujood'
3215 also says kharruu sujjadanThis means that there are 2 references in the Quran where people physically fall at hearing the Quran.
Simple.
Really? News to me. Perhaps another one of your % weightings will work well here?
If I had made it 'probability of physical prostration = 1 to 73 million' would that have made you happy? You seem fond of such ridiculous 'maths' in your own articles.
Ahh, so we use our common sense to decide when we should apply it or not
Are you saying we should NOT use common sense when applying things from the Quran?
Because that's a really original position!
Let's throw away common sense altogether!Again, you cannot read properly. 1958 is addressing a specific group of people who were no doubt highly responsive to God's message.
Interestingly, if we use your "common sense" approach, those addressed in 1958 could pick and choose when to fall SJD and BKY... doesn't sound as impressive does it.You contradict yourself again.
You said that kharruu sujjadan cannot mean physical prostration because we have no examples to emulate from prophets/messengers.So there is the example for you of prophets and messengers crying when hearing God's words.
So by your logic we can say that we should ALWAYS cry when hearing God's words. Why make the excuse that they were just "highly responsive" people? You said yourself "pick and choose when to fall sjd and bky"
If they can't use common sense to choose when to cry, then apparently they must cry each time they hear the Quran.
This means we have an example of Prophets/messengers using common sense, and thus it is ok for us to do as well.
"1 in 1 billion" is not accurate or inaccurate, it depends entirely upon what the individual determines as valid/reasonable for them, thus true for them not others, as stated in the article.
Oh it's not accurate NOR inaccurate is it?
Don't dance around like a headless chicken, my % weightings are EXACTLY the same thing as your probabilities. Your article is 'why I believe in God', mine was "why kharruu means to fall"
But you are incapable of not being biased, so therefore your ridiculous "1 in 1 billion" and "1 in ten thousand billion billion" are somehow validated, whilst mine are useless.Please show your "1 in ten thousand billion billion" to anyone else on this forum to see if it's worth a damn.
What's the probability that you'll do it? (In what I individually determine to be valid of course) is 1 in 77 billion trillion!
This is probably the best example of your inability to read and bias. 7161 and 258 are nothing at all to do with "perform sujood on others".
I admire the way you make an argument, and then conveniently stop mentioning it again once it's been explained.
You said before that people could not have made sujood to Joseph because of verses where God says no one should do sujood to anyone but him.I raised these verses to show that God instructed the angels to do sujood on Adam, and these people to do sujood whilst entering the village to show you that the contradiction already exists.
Your response?
To completely ignore these verses, and instead to argue a moot point.No one ever stated that words cannot have different meanings depending on context - that is only your obsession. Is that what you're arguing? That words cannot hold multiple meanings in the Quran depending on context?
Whereas my rendition fits like a glove
When you make something vague enough, it will fit into anything.
In fact, according to your description, we are making sujood right now. I am "hearing and obeying' right now, and I'm also "acknowledging" right now as we speak.In fact I was also "acknowledging a few minutes ago when I used the bathroom. I can acknowledge all day!
Your definition is meaningless Wakas, it's time you realised it.
To summarize
I think that your greatest weakness Wakas is a lack of knowledge of Arabic, which results in an 'any word can mean anything if i want it to' attitude.
You make one inference, and then you're forced into twisting things into meaning what you want them to, so as not to trouble your utopian vision of the Quran.
You provide absolutely ZERO logical argument against the phrase kharruu lil2adhqaani, but instead defer your opinion each time to an appeal to authority "mustansir mir says it"
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peace ths,
If you know Arabic, this just got interesting. For the record, I have almost zero knowledge of Arabic. Since 'the proof is in the tasting of the pudding', as the idiom goes, we will see if this is important or not.
Before I begin, just saying I use "ad hominens" doesn't prove I actually used them. Ideally, in future, please clarify what type and where I did so, so I can improve my skills in this area. I like to use this site for example.
Now, let me clarify and simplify
You admit it is an idiom on one hand, yet seemingly imply it can be taken literally sometimes. Can you clarify exactly what your position is on this?
According to you, what is the meaning of dhaqn in AQ and the primary meaning in Classical Arabic dictionaries? Does it ever mean "ground"?
"and, of a stone, kabbahu-l-sailu lidhaqnihi The torrent overturned it."
Can you provide a literal translation, so we can see if Lane is giving us the meaning of the phrase (because he understands the idiom).
So in his 3rd rendering, he shows us that the word "chin" is not important in this idiomatic phrase.
The word "chin" is not relevant when explaining the final meaning perhaps (as Lane does), but it is crucial in order to understand meaning, i.e. knowing this phrase is an idiomatic expression in the first place allows one to obtain the final or intended meaning. You seem to be confusing the two or how one leads to the other. Ask your expert Arabic linguist this, let us know what they say.
It tells us that the Arabic phrase "kharruu li2adhqaanihim" does not translate to"fall to the chin" in English. It translates to "they came crashing down"
Do you take it as such when it applies to humans, i.e. do they also "come crashing down". Please clarify this point exactly.
You said it yourself, TREES HAVE NO CHINS, then why do you insist on translating chin differently each time?
I do not translate it differently each time, I translate it exactly the same all the time. Again, you seem to be confusing the literal rendering of the phrase with its meaning. Once one understands the idiom, they can give the intended meaning.
This means that there are 2 references in the Quran where people physically fall at hearing the Quran.
Classic circular argument. Verse XYZ means ABC, that shows there are examples of ABC in XYZ.
Tell us what your expert in Arabic linguistics says about the construction of 1958 etc in which khrr is a verb in the perfect tense and sjd is a noun. I'd be interested to know the implications of the grammar.
Really? News to me. Perhaps another one of your % weightings will work well here?
Rather than dodging the question, please answer it so we can see if your claim of "Sujood is overwhelmingly used in concordance with prayer" is correct or not.
So by your logic we can say that we should ALWAYS cry when hearing God's words. Why make the excuse that they were just "highly responsive" people?
No excuse whatsoever, the verse you refer to is addressed to a specific group of people, whilst the others referenced are not. If a person knows Arabic, they should spot this easy.
But you are incapable of not being biased, so therefore your ridiculous "1 in 1 billion" and "1 in ten thousand billion billion" are somehow validated, whilst mine are useless.
Yes, yours are useless for others. The probabilities you refer to of mine are valid for me only, as I clearly state in the article. I say they are subjective thus choose your own thus they will be valid for you. Thus, when you post your % weightings for others, I am simply saying they may be relevant for you, but irrelevant for others. You dont seem to understand this simple point.
Please show your "1 in ten thousand billion billion" to anyone else on this forum to see if it's worth a damn.
What's the probability that you'll do it? (In what I individually determine to be valid of course) is 1 in 77 billion trillion!
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htm
It has been praised several times in this forum, and also in email feedback, including university professors. Not too shabby for my first article written at 16. Here are some examples
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598275.msg200122#msg200122
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11684.msg80809#msg80809I agree that the only evidence you have of sjd to others is of angels/iblis to/for adam/mankind, although they are not people doing the sjd. I dont have a major problem with that, as not only is this a parable it was prior to this whole test on earth started. I completely reject your claim of sjd to others with "enter the gate in sjd", as it could easily refer to disposition. Ask your expert if it means "to others".
No one ever stated that words cannot have different meanings depending on context - that is only your obsession. Is that what you're arguing? That words cannot hold multiple meanings in the Quran depending on context?
Thanks for the admission. An example of person movement in sjd and it does not mean physical prostration. Nice to know we agree on something.
In fact, according to your description, we are making sujood right now. I am "hearing and obeying' right now, and I'm also "acknowledging" right now as we speak.
No, you would only be "hearing" not "obeying", and you would not be acknowledging because you disagree, thus at most would be acknowledging part (as in you hear what I'm saying) but reject another part (i.e. do not follow through and obey). Simple.
Also ask your expert when it says "and when you ABC do XYZ..." can it mean it is optional. Thanks.
Please take your time to respond and read very carefully.
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Salaam,
Wakas, we can take from your lack of respect that you're an emotionally stunted individual. For not only do you feel it necessary to belittle me, but the insecurity you feel inside has driven you to disrespect the friend that I mentioned above.
My purpose in discussing this topic in this forum began as a personal quest to investigate and find the truth in a matter - for myself, and for the benefit of others searching for the same answers.
You failed to understand this, and turned the discussion into a personal one by making personal attacks.I pointed this out to you above, and you continue to lay on the sarcasm and the disrespect of others.
You have not respected my spiritual quest as an individual, nor my efforts in this forum to understand an important concept. This goes against the teachings of the Quran, as you probably know, yet voluntarily continue to do it. It also shuns others from continuing in the discussion, out of fear of your sarcastic side-commentary.
Therefore your attitude has shunned people from finding the truth. So congratulations for that.I'm more than happy to discuss this and all issues with anybody in this forum, but I'll tell you here and now, that if you weren't taught to speak with respect in your childhood, then you'll learn it now for I'll respond this time, and if you continue with your condescending tone it'll be my last. If you can speak and respond as an adult, then I'm more than happy to continue discussing with you.
Wakas, your attitude was wrong, you know it, I know it, and everyone reading this thread knows it. It's preserved in front of us. I expected MUCH more from a senior member on this forum. So be an adult and acknowledge your mistake and rectify it.
Now, onto the discussion,
You admit it is an idiom on one hand, yet seemingly imply it can be taken literally sometimes. Can you clarify exactly what your position is on this?
According to you, what is the meaning of dhaqn in AQ and the primary meaning in Classical Arabic dictionaries? Does it ever mean "ground"?
1.Absolutely not, it never means ground.
2. Dhaqn is used in the Quran to mean 'chin'.
3. I can't believe you still don't understand what I'm trying to say. My argument is absolutely clear. So either you are intentionally not understanding, or you have no language skills to speak of.The word "chin" is not relevant when explaining the final meaning perhaps (as Lane does), but it is crucial in order to understand meaning, i.e. knowing this phrase is an idiomatic expression in the first place allows one to obtain the final or intended meaning. You seem to be confusing the two or how one leads to the other.
Please explain this gibberish.
So there is a final meaning, and an intermediate meaning?I'm going to try to make my argument as clear as possible now
Dhaqn is chin
Kharruu liladhqaan is something totally differentYou're progression is stopped, it seems, because of the presence of the word 'dhaqn'.
From Lane's Lexicon, we can infer that the phrase "kharruu lil2adhqaan" can be used to denote anything falling over surprisingly/swiftly/eagerly/completely
It is a poetic device, used like this
The mighty trees, that looked strong and sturdy, fell over eagerly at the strength of the wind
The heavy rock, that looked dense and immobile, keeled over in an instant at the strength of the torrent.
The fact that there exists the word 'chin' does not mean anything.
Here are some examples
- .
Translation I bought it for dirt cheap
Meaning I bought something for a surprisingly low price.
The word 'dirt' means nothing in this sentence. It is not translated on its own. The PHRASE is translated.
Translation It is a slip of the tongue
Meaning It was a verbal mistake
The word 'tongue' is not translated directly to mean "a tongue slipped", because it's impossible for a tongue to slip.
Translation On my head
Meaning It's my pleasure
This is a common phrase in Arabic. When you're doing something for someone and they're thanking you, you commonly say "3ala raasi"
The word 'head' has no meaning in the phrase, and should not be taken literally. There is nothing on the head.
Translation Two healths
Meaning To be honest I have no idea hahah?all I know is that it's said after one finishes eating. It's a sort of blessingDo you see where I'm going now?
Lane translated kharruu lil2adhqaan because that's how you read it in english "they fell to the chins"
I hope my argument is finally clear on this
Arabic is full of such expressionsDo you take it as such when it applies to humans, i.e. do they also "come crashing down". Please clarify this point exactly.
Yes. They fall to the ground eagerly. They fall swiftly as they weep.
Similar to the Arabic method of repetition to convey stress.
Translation He hit him a hit
Meaning He hit him especially hardThis is also used all over the Quran
Classic circular argument. Verse XYZ means ABC, that shows there are examples of ABC in XYZ.
This is EXACTLY what you are doing.
You are saying that XYZ does not mean ABC, and that shows there are no examples of ABC in XYZ.
please answer it so we can see if your claim of "Sujood is overwhelmingly used in concordance with prayer" is correct or not.
What are you talking about?
I took 'prayer' to mean dhikr, du3a2, salah, and worship in general?the English word prayer encompasses those things.No excuse whatsoever, the verse you refer to is addressed to a specific group of people, whilst the others referenced are not. If a person knows Arabic, they should spot this easy.
What are you talking about?
The verse I quoted is not addressing anybody. It is making an example of previous messengers and prophets.
Read it again. I quote verse 1958Yes, yours are useless for others. The probabilities you refer to of mine are valid for me only, as I clearly state in the article.
I thought it was obvious that these were my own personal weightings.
That's why I even added
"I shall try to be as unbiased as possible, giving equal weight to each possibility."It is YOU who turned it into a ballyhoo as if I'd intended it to be a formulaic mathematical dissertation.
It was my own unbiased opinion, and that was obvious to everyone but you.Not too shabby for my first article written at 16.
I TRULY hope this means that you're not 18 years old, because that would explain A LOT.
And that's all I have time for now.
In summary,
cut the preteen attitude and act like an adult so this can be a proper discussion for us, and for everyone reading it.
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Peace RA786,
This is like comparing Apples to Oranges.
Prostrating to a Statue of Buddah is Different from Prostrating to Allah.
Prostrating to a Statue of a Snake with wings is Different from prostrating to a black box called the Kaba or the Rock at Temple Mount Dome Rock.
Just beauce a Pegan Sacrificial Mayan has a Mark on his Forehead...Doesnt mean that he is Equal to a Muslim who has a Mark on his Forehead.
I disagree with THS saying that ONLY muslims have the mark, because I think ANYONE who prostrates will develoupe one...
HOWEVER, I will admit...I have NEVER EVER seen a non-muslim with a Prostration mark.
Catholics are known for doing hand to head (father,son,holy spirit) and Muslims are Known for Prostration marks.So you admit that the physical "mark" on the head is irrelevant to whether one is a "muslim" or even an average decent human being or not. Not only the extreme Hindus who prostrate to their idols frequently have those marks but also idiotic terrorists. Moreover, the mark is a kind of mild contact dermititis and depending on your skin type you may get it or not. Usually people with lighter skin will not get it. Are you really so blind as to think that the believers can only be of a certain skin type? So what does the physical "mark" have to do with piety or being from the believers? NOTHING.
Making a Sacrifice to Allah by sacrificing a Goat or Lamb and feeding the poor...... Is Different that sacraficing a goat's head to satan in a pegan Orgy Blood Sex ritual with a Cult.
Making a Pilgrimage to a Mosque is different then making a pilgrimage to a Satanic temple of Ritual.
Ayman is COMPLETELY missing the point and creating a fallacy.If "Mike" is Prostrating on the ground or even towards the kaba(or temple Rock) and he is praying to Allah and his intention is Genuine because this is Honestly how he interpretes the verese and wishes to accomplish his goal of being Closer to Allah by performing a Physical Prostration while reciting Quran...
This in NO WAY makes him the same as a satanist prostrater. And Just beaucase The Satanist Prostrater and the Muslim have Makrs on their forehead doesnt mean they are the same. Thats UNFAIR of Ayman. very Unfair.So you admit that the physical mark on the forehead is 100% irrelevant.
You also admit that the non-physical "intention" of Mike is what matters. So the primary aspect of "sujud", even according to you is non-physical.
*Where in the Quran does it say "Do Not Make ANY Physical Prostration to Allah while Reciting Quran and Asking for Guidence...ITS HARAAM!"
*Where in the Quran does it say "Do not wear White Sheets because Pegans do...Its HARAAAM!"
So now, we cant wear white sheets, and cant prostrate because we would be consittered Pegan?
(But doesnt pegan mean have false gods? how can we fit the actions of pegans if we have ALLAH as our God?) hmmListen RA786, you can prostrate towards a stone cube and walk around half naked in some white towels all you want, but don't lie and claim that you are doing it because the god told you so. It is indeed HARAAM to say lies about the god.
Where in the great reading does it say to make physical prostration to/towards a stone cube?
Where in the great reading does it say to wear some white sheets?You cant keep using the old..."Pegans did it...so it must be bad!"
well pegans Drink Orange Juice, so now I feel to be a Better muslim...we need to stop drinking OJ!
Pegans also like to shave their heads....So now I feel we as Muslim must never cut our hair!
oppss Uh oh! Pegans Also believe to Never cut your hair! Oh no what do we do!?
Just because Pegans use Physical Prostration as their Means in Making Ritual Prayers, Doesnt Automatically Make ANY AND ALL physical prayers negitive and pegan.
They cant Coin and own the copy rights to physical Prostration. its not an All or nothing.As I said, you can wear white sheets or walk naked or do whatever you want. But if you say that you are doing it because the god told you to do it then you better bring evidence from the great reading (which I know you can't). In my book, this makes you a liar against the god.
What makes the difference is the Words being said and the Thoughts that are being Manifested/Intention/meaning.
Thats what makes the difference between a Pegans prayer and a Muslims prayer.
Be Fair Ayman, and please dont go back to your "Pegans DID IT so it must be bad" argument all the time.Once again, you admit that the important thing is not the physical but the non-physical, thereby contradicting yourself.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Zulu,
Please read and digest again
4829 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration.
Bow and Prostrate to who? Allah SWT. Not to a statue and not some paint markings on the face. As RA786 correctly stated, prostrating to Allah SWT is not the same as prostrating to some idol! The above ayat is defining Muslims who prostrate to Allah SWT and not Hindus or Buddhists who prostrate to anything and everything.So you admit that "to who" is what matters and the physical marks don't matter since Hindus can equally have them, especially the extremist Hindus who spend all day prostrating to a statue. In other words, you are admitting that what you wrote here is 100% false nonsense
The only people I have seen with marks on their faces/foreheads are Muslims who have been physically prostrating and touching their foreheads on the ground.
Additional to this, according to your logic, Muslims have now also borrowed 'dress codes' from the Hindu faith as well. Like I said before, the stories and nonsense that you guys come up with belong in Hollywood. You guys are seriously in the wrong profession. Scriptwriting is where you need to be. Maybe they can back you up and turn your fantasies into a blockbuster.
As I told RA768, I don't care if you spin seven times around any idol half naked, just don't lie and say that they god told you to do so. If you are not a liar then tell us where did the god tell you to dress in white towels?
Furthermore, you also claim that the prostration should be on the chin. Why don't you just say prostration should be on the left ear as well, followed by the right ear, then finish off with a head stand with legs straight, feet together and toes pointing perfectly in the air, which will in turn get you a perfect score of 10!
Tell your hypocritical excuses to the god. He is the one who talked about the chins
Can you read Arabic? If not then ask THS, who knows Arabic, to underline the word "the chins" for you in the passage.
According to you dudes
Prayer is wrong
Fasting is wrong
Zakat is wrong
Pilgrimage is wrong
Not content with this, dress code is wrong, appearances are wrong, walking is wrong, talking is wrong, eating is wrong, washing is wrong, education is wrong, conducting business is wrong, marriage is wrong, having children is wrong and finally to top it all off, living and breathing is wrong. The only thing I await for from the likes of you, is statements that when Muslims die, their death is wrong because it has been corrupted using pagan rituals therefore they die the wrong way.
You guys have well and truly lost the plot.As I said, no one cares if you mindlessly spin around some pagan stones wearing some white towels or if you have a fetish for kissing and fondling filthy stones that you face while praying. Go ahead and knock yourself out. The only thing is don't lie and claim that the god ordered you to do so.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace RA786,
So you admit that the physical "mark" on the head is irrelevant to whether one is a "muslim" or even an average decent human being or not. Not only the extreme Hindus who prostrate to their idols frequently have those marks but also idiotic terrorists. Moreover, the mark is a kind of mild contact dermititis and depending on your skin type you may get it or not. Usually people with lighter skin will not get it. Are you really so blind as to think that the believers can only be of a certain skin type? So what does the physical "mark" have to do with piety or being from the believers? NOTHING.
Wow Ayman, You really Are the BEST bravo .... To be honest I did not believe it, I didnt believe it at all until I got a tase of you... Its true, you really are the best at not only making absurd claims but twisting and turning a conversation around. I am a Pro-Se, Gee, if I Ever need a Lawyer Ill be sure to give you a call. laugh
1st I Do NOT apperciate that you have said
Are you really so blind as to think that the believers can only be of a certain skin type?
yuck Please dont insinuate that I am blind and also please Stay on topic. I have NEVER once in this thread said ANYTHING about Skin type and believers only having Prayer Marks. It not only is creating a False and Irrelavant Derailing Topic, but it gives a false Illusion that that was what I said thus making me look like an ignorant Racist Muslim (and I have never said that)That is like me saying "Ayman!? Common brother! Are you really that cold hearted that you feel Aborting grown babies is totally cool and trendy!?"
See what I just did? I created a False story that never happened and now everyone who isnt paying attention thinks "oh wow, ayman is a real mean guy, he likes grown aborted babies."So please...I am Not a Racist Muslim who thinks that Only Dark skinned Believers get a Prostration Mark. Stay ON TOPIC!
So what does the physical "mark" have to do with piety or being from the believers? NOTHING.
Actually I disagree with you hear. It can have alot to do with the believers and Piety in the sense that there are ALOT of muslims who have it because they pray alot. And Because They Pray alot therefore they feel closer to God and are more motivated personnally to do zakat, and other Islamic Good things.
However there are some "Bad Apples" who Also have the Mark and they Still do bad things and are far from god and are terrorists.
So who wins the Good guys or the Terrorists?
I dont think its that easy for us to say.I would Conclude that for the "Good Muslims with the Prostration Mark" they not only (obviously) do Physical Prayer, but mental. (A combination, where faith has Truley entered in their heart.)
Then I would say that the "Terrorist Bad Muslims who also have the Prostration Mark" Do Prayer just like the Above (good guys) however Faith has NOT entered their heart and all they are doing is Excersise. They are merely repeating words, doing motions, and ultimatley Achieving NOTHING.
So does this mean ALL PROSTRATION AND PRAYER MARKS MEAN NOTHING!? No, lets not let the terrorists win!
Athiests use this same Logica for Criticiszing Religion, however what they dont realize is that Not EVERYBODY who practices religion is Wrong.
Here look at one of their Pictureshttp//i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm271/cromosoma_verde/varie/no_religion.jpgAre the Athiests Right? would Athiesm really be the Panacea for the Homosapien evil disease? No, religious People have not only Started Wars, but also Ended them for Peace. Religious people have Feed Starving people, Cured Crack Addicks and whores, and has Freed tons of Slaves (as well as Ensalved them).
Its not the Religion (perse) its the PEOPLE, there are GOOD and BAD religious people. Not all Churches rob your money. Not all Catholics Rape your little boys.
So therefore back to your Comment, There are a lot of People who have Benifited from the Physical Prostration and have Develouped a Honorable Mark on their Forehead. Most who have this mark are True to what they do. They have really benifited from it and have manifested it into their life. It is Both a Physical and Mental/Spiritual thing.However some have not benifited and have just simply got a lump on their head and it means nothing because their prayer is All physical and ill-intended. Allah knows best! D
Btw, Buddhists and many other religions get marks too, im just saying Muslims are KNOWN for having them, meaning...Though Buddhists have it...Muslims are greatly recognized more for it in the media. Just like Hindus have a red dot, Foot ball players have Black lines under they eyes...etc... Though many other people may have it..they for some reason have more publicity and are known more for having it.
(maybe buddhists should hire a new Publisist.) rotflSo you admit that the physical mark on the forehead is 100% irrelevant.
No, I did not say it is Irrelevant (perse)...I think it is a Symbol of Great Prostration/Patience and Striving...however, even if you Plant your seed EVERYDAY 5x a day...it doesnt mean your seeds will grow. Though they may be doing 100% Prostation(physical) they are lacking in the mental/Spiritual Aspect of it when doing it.
Meaning, Theya re just going through the motions however perhaps thinking about something else (thus making the prostration in vain).
I think the mark on the forehead is relevent or rather has the Potential to be relevant.Its like a Diploma. It takes Years and Years of Hard work in school to recieve a Ph.D Deploma. However, there is always some rich kid who grow up spoiled, payed his way through College, Cheated on Exams, Lied to his Friends and teachers and STILL recieved a Ph.D. Does the Ph.D. Really Matter? well, I suppose No...NOT FOR
"HIM", however for the other kid who honestly works his way rightfully to get his Ph.D...yes it does matter for him. it is a Symbol and Fruit a badge of Honor showing how much he strived to go through. Thats how I will conclude that.You also admit that the non-physical "intention" of Mike is what matters. So the primary aspect of "sujud", even according to you is non-physical.
I would not say so. Why? Because There must be a Duality. Ying and a Yang.
(unless of course you honest cannot prostrate because your Paralyzed, but however Wished you could.)
I think that for me anyways, I would GAIN more out of my Salaat/Dua if I prostate...because Yes even though my Head (mental) would be in the right place at first...I tend to loose focus. I tend to only focus when I am Physically FORCED to do something. If I am Praying to God while driving...I usually end my prayer or forget surahs or do not feel Spiritually Saticfied...however when I STOP my actions and FORCE my body to PHYSICALLY bend my joints and prostrate to pray, I feel I gain more out of it and I dont have ADD (attention defficet disorder), I feel like i could focus more on "what" the message is I am trying to convey and what I wish to gain out of it.Listen RA786, you can prostrate towards a stone cube and walk around half naked in some white towels all you want, but don't lie and claim that you are doing it because the god told you so. It is indeed HARAAM to say lies about the god.
Ayman I will Once gain tell you that you are making me Angry. >( And in a Polite way, I would really Apperciate it if you would stop this.
I do not like the part where you stated that I lied.but don't lie and claim that you are doing it because the god told you so.
You are Falsy Accusing me of something I did not do. If you would like me to call you out...I could.
I could say that you are then breaking a Quranic Rule against Slander. I have Never Ever Ever EVER said
I RA786 amdoing it because the god told you (ME) so.
Please dont slander. I have never said that...I have please Copy and Paste it so I can see. I dont believe I said God told me to go around a Stone in white Sheets. If I in FACT did and forgot then I Sincearly Appoligize to you and everone here for forgetting.Where in the great reading does it say to make physical prostration to/towards a stone cube?
According to my Current knowldge of Islam (I am a new convert, roughly 2 years now) and my Interpretation, The Kaba in Mecca is the Quibla.
So I pray towards it as that is what I know/been taught. I have Already read this debate with you and Edip on this aswell as heard Everyone's interpretation from Layth, Simple, herbman, Sarah, etc...etc...etc...etc...
So I wish not to debate this tedious topic. I have my interpretation and you have yours. At a latter time When I am ready to fully understand and expound on Quranic Knowldge I might reconsiter. For now, I feel its either Jerusalam or its Mecca...and I have more on Mecca then Jerusalam. DWhere in the great reading does it say to wear some white sheets?
Nowhere that I have heard. I am not arguing this fact, I admit I agree with you on this one.
As I said, you can wear white sheets or walk naked or do whatever you want. But if you say that you are doing it because the god told you to do it then you better bring evidence from the great reading (which I know you can't). In my book, this makes you a liar against the god
.I Would never (Conciously) Attribute a Lie to God Mr. Ayman. police Watch your Tone Cheif! police
I only said or believed that Allah has told me to do Hajj (Pilrgimage)...however I agree that I have NEVER heard Allah Tell me to Dress in white sheets and circle a Black box 7 times chanting his name.The ONLY thing I heard Allah say (in the Quran) is to make the Hajj, feed the Poor, resist fighting, Send a Gift, vistit the house, and no blame on me if I decide to go around Safa and Mawrah (sighns of God).... Thats ALL I read from Allah. (I admit this and have never stated otherwise...unless I forgot).
Once again, you admit that the important thing is not the physical but the non-physical, thereby contradicting yourself.
I have not said this...This is actually YOUR conclusion...not Mine.
Please be well advised that I do not believe the Important thing is the mental or physical apect. I believe in Duality (at least for myself) as the best means for creating a daily conection with Allah. I feel that an ARM is just as Important as a Leg...or for a better example...a Mental Hijab is just as Important as a Physical one.
to me one with out the other may not be 100% to my needs. I require both, unless I am physically unable to do so and must then sacrifice my physical prostraion...and really really really try hard to improve my mental. (such as if I was sick or was physically unable to do so as I was on a Bus or plane.) to me Mental is bare minumum...perhaps still acceptible but bear minumum. add the physical and you got one cool Prayer!P.s. About the White Sheets and circling the Kaba 7 times etc....
Yes It may not be in the Quran...but does this make it Bad and Haraam? is All tradition Haraam? or is ONLY the Tradition that is Shirk Haraam?you see I have realized something... I think that Tradtional Islam may not be bad afterall. Maybe just Maybe... The ONLY BAD thing about Tradtional Islam is the Shirk and Abrogative Hadiths to the Quran.
But what If we cut those two things out? would it STILL be bad?
American Tradition Style Islam, Middle Eastern Meccan Traditional Style Islam, and even Chinese Traditional Style Islam is ALL compatible with The QUran and can be Followed as long as it fits this Criteria.
1)No Shirk.
2)No Abrogative/Contradictive teachings.So really as long as you arent doing those two things... Maybe ANY cultural tradition is Good and Compatible with Islam. Right?
If I Circle the Kaba 7 times in a white sheet because I feel this Is Hajj according to my interpretation, I have not added another Name (Partner to Allah) and I have not Abrogated any verese of the Quran....Then is what I am doing Bad in any way?
am I going against Allah? Am I harming anyone? Am I disobeying?
Peace/Salaam
EDIT. P.s.s.
My father and I used to play the Punch Bug Game where when you are driving and see a Punch bug you have to Quickly punch someone and scream punch bug!
http//i151.photobucket.com/albums/s153/Boo2_07/untitled-12.jpg
Then, We decided to not punch and only say "punch bug".
For some odd reason my dad decided to make a new rule to the game...that whenever you see one and say punch bug...you also have to say "Subhanallah" or "Alhumdulilah". (some type of glory to god).So, it kind just stuck and whenever we see one the Automatic thought comes to mind PUNCH BUG!.......SUBHANALLAH!
So...This family tradion I Practice...Is it Pegan? am I now a Pegan Polytheist no good Transgressing hypocrate?
I mean...is this a tradition that was ordained by Allah in the Quran?...or did we just make this up?..and if we did...is it pegan and wrong?
I dont think so...becuase the Intention is Good. D I am not worshipping the Car nor am I adding it as a Partner to Allah. -
in many ways the traditional ritual prayer can be compared with that of the pagan way of worship. if anyone thinks that their way of worship is the only correct one to remember/reach GOD, thats called idol worshipping? idols have forms and splits people so do rituals.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.the problem is that traditionalists argue they are not like idol worshippers, but they want every mosque facing Mekah? every one should pray in Arabic,
the pilgrimage is fixed to a place which is considered more sacred than any other place.
They blame the pagan rituals and offerings as waste but never care to see how much they waste when they do their Hajj,
they want people to use the lunar arabic calendar, even there are rules in some places they should wear a cap or cover their head to look like an Arab.Ultimately many are fooled that the Arabic language and culture is the chosen one, these people were dragged from their native culture to a completely alien corrupted system that has no chance for improvement. infact they are worshipping an idol called Arabian Sunnah solely based on Hadiths without thinking.
Their lands/countries really speak of their religion, how peacefull Islamic they are? ).
-
Dear Ayman
Dude....... You can argue until the cows come home that the earth is square and the moon is a triangle. It doesn't matter what you say, the reality is you have well and truly lost the plot.
The plain and simple truth is that you are jealous of the Muslims. Period.
And yes, God did tell us to Pray, God did tell us to Fast, God did tell us to give in Charity and God did tell us to perform Pilgrimage. Get over it. Don't hate.
And finally to wrap up, God also told us to beware of people like you
278 And there are among them unlettered people who have no real knowledge of the divine writ, only wishful beliefs and depending on nothing but conjecture.
427 And God wants to turn unto you in His mercy, whereas those who follow their own lusts want you to drift far away from the right path.
6116 Now if thou pay heed unto the majority of those on earth, they will but lead thee astray from the path of God they follow but conjectures, and they themselves do nothing but guess.
Now I suggest you come up with another conspiracy theory and repeat yourself like a parrot that we are all idol worshipers following pagan rituals blah blah blah, otherwise you will be breaking from the 'norm' and we don't want that now do we.
Peace
-
in many ways the traditional ritual prayer can be compared with that of the pagan way of worship. if anyone thinks that their way of worship is the only correct one to remember/reach GOD, thats called idol worshipping? idols have forms and splits people so do rituals.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.the problem is that traditionalists argue they are not like idol worshippers, but they want every mosque facing Mekah? every one should pray in Arabic,
the pilgrimage is fixed to a place which is considered more sacred than any other place.
They blame the pagan rituals and offerings as waste but never care to see how much they waste when they do their Hajj,
they want people to use the lunar arabic calendar, even there are rules in some places they should wear a cap or cover their head to look like an Arab.Ultimately many are fooled that the Arabic language and culture is the chosen one, these people were dragged from their native culture to a completely alien corrupted system that has no chance for improvement. infact they are worshipping an idol called Arabian Sunnah solely based on Hadiths without thinking.
Their lands/countries really speak of their religion, how peacefull Islamic they are? ).
It is Obvious that there are Similarities between a Traditionalist Muslim's Ritual Prayer and a Pegan Ritual Prayer.
Be be Fair. There is a Difference two.... What kind of Difference... SHIRK....(Thats a BIG BIG difference, in fact thats so bog of a difference that it can lead someone to hell)Traditional Sunni Shia Muslims Create a Dogmatic Religion where there is No Open Mind and One way is the ONLY way (yet they diagree on this way.)
Of this You are right.But some Quran Aloners make the Mistake of destroying that dogmatic Traditionalist system and place it with another.
I feel We (ths,zulu,Ra786) have not done that, however I Feel Ayman has.I dont think my ritual prayer is the ONLY correct way, The Quran is Open Enough to Allow Many ways.
So just Like We (Ths, Ra786, Zulu) Should Not creat a Dogmatic Religion....
Ayman should not create one either. Just becuase He doesnt believe in the way we pray doesnt mean his way is correct and we are nothing but hypocritic Pegan Indolitry satanic polytheist worshipers. HE is acting just like a Sunni/Shia Traditional muslims saying HIS way is the Good way and ours is Incorrect, and you are basically helpping him.We are just Discussing/Debating. If You all feel NO PROSTRATION is Correct then by all means Carry on, However dont accuse us or imply that our way is Polytheist or Pegan. thats a wicked allegation.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God
But What If I DO think they are Imporatant and Ordained by God / Wanted by Me? am I not Truley Following One God?
You have created a Fallacy. You say that sice I believe in this way, I am not Following The Only True God.
Then what God am I following? Have I said a name other than Allah? Have I cut a goats head in another name? Have I participated ina Cult Ritual?
NO. Therefore you claim hold NO validity.You basically believe Just like Ayman, that "Your way is Correct and our is Pegan/Wrong."
Its Funny Ironic......Perhaps You and Ayman have Become the thing You hate You hated the Dogmatic Sunnis/Shia's yet have become Dogmatic yourself.
A Good Example is Thos Who Encourage Muslim Women to Take Off their Hijab by saying its a Symbol of Intolerance and Oppression, Then They Create Laws to BAN any WOman from wearing Hijab completeley. They Liberated the Oppressed Women who were Forced to wear hijab in the Begining Only to now Oppress them by Forcing them to Take it off Forever, Instead of Just Giving them a Choice.
They can Wear it if they Truley want to, or They can take it off if they Truley want to. However not making any law that forces the women to do either or.
My Salaat is Not the ONLY way, Ths's salaat is not the only way Ayman's isnt the Only way and Wakas and you.
But Apparently, anyone who doesnt follow you and Ayman is a Pegan?I never gave this type of Ultimatum. Ths never gave or implied this type of ultimatum. Look in the mirror.
Salaam/Peace
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peace amin
in many ways the traditional ritual prayer can be compared with that of the pagan way of worship. if anyone thinks that their way of worship is the only correct one to remember/reach GOD, thats called idol worshipping? idols have forms and splits people so do rituals.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.It seems that you do not know what "ritual" means
I've seen these statements bandied around this forum for a long time now, so I think it's time to put a stop to them.
The following definitions are taken from here http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/ritual
-
an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
-
any practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner.
Now, this
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.
is an absolutely incorrect statement, because God tells us that salah is a TIMED decree
This means that you do it every single day, and that God, in fact, loves rituals and thinks they are important.So hopefully that will stop the ridiculous people trolling these forums talking about God hating rituals.
even there are rules in some places they should wear a cap or cover their head to look like an Arab.
Where is this??
And Arabs don't wear caps -
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Salaam all,
Just a clarification
RA786
I disagree with THS saying that ONLY muslims have the mark, because I think ANYONE who prostrates will develoupe one...
I haven't talked at all about the 'marks on their faces' passage..might have been zulu
Ayman
Can you read Arabic? If not then ask THS, who knows Arabic, to underline the word "the chins" for you in the passage.
Brother Ayman, I don't know if you've read my views on this, but you can find them here, and in many previous posts.
I'm interested to hear your views on them if you care to share.And lastly, just an appeal to everyone
How about we all stop the shit-flinging and talk to each other as adults. This thread is making me feel like I'm in high school.
I think it's reflective of the general mentality at freeminds that conversations are incapable of being had without turning it into a teen pissing contest - or maybe everyone here ARE teens -
RA786
I haven't talked at all about the 'marks on their faces' passage..might have been zuluYeah sorry, that was Zulu....and it was a misquote anyways. D
or maybe everyone here ARE teens
well I am 19 till next week....so.... I guess I still have time to be a kid.
Piss Contest Anyone? rotfl
-
Yep. It was my quote and I stand by it.
Actually I think I misquoted you Zulu.
You said that the ONLY people who YOU have witness that have the Mark on their forheads are Believers (muslims).
and that is fine. that is according to your knowledge.However, My Misquote was Zulu belueves that ONLY muslims get that mark.
(and I disagree with that because I think there are others who get that mark even though they are not muslim, for example Some Hindu's or Buddhists might get that mark because they Prostrate too.)So Even Non-muslims get a Prostration Mark somtimes....its just that Muslims are more recognized as having it.
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Salaam Hope4,
Firstly, I haven't read through the entire book, but I've just skimmed through and wanted to convey my dismay! What an insecure person this author must be! The whole thing is about Arabs!
"the Arab religion" - I'm seeing this term bandied around quite a lot...what does that mean?? Many of the most well respected exegetes were Persians and central Asians. Even the greatest grammarians, Sibawaih amongst others, were Persians
Or how about this
Part 1 - "God is not an Arab"
hahaha really? I'm surprised to hear that someone suggested he IS an Arab. This chapter is ridiculous...no one says you have to pray in Arabic! Sunnis do NOT say that. People merely encourage learning Arabic because it is the language that the Quran is written in. And if you can't comprehend what an important role poetics, rhetoric and eloquence (balaaghah), and richness of language play in the Quran - then you are missing PLENTY of knowledge
Part 3 - "The Arab Religion"
Part 3 - Arab religious laws
Part 3 - Arab ritual prayer
Part 5 - How the Arabs do the ?Sol-laa shuffle?or what about this
A table on page 61 under 'The conspiracies" (what terrible usage of the word conspiracies!)
The column headers are "Arabic Word" - "Arab Corruption" - "Fundamental Meaning"
Or this
Part 12 - A message to Arab religionists
So I don't know what Arabs have done to this guy...but the poor guy really has an axe to grind.
I read Part 2 "There is no religion of God" and really liked it so far, so I'm hoping his arguments aren't as fraught with paranoia as his emotions are
I'll take a better look and let you know about the arguments he proposes
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Selam all
What do you think of salat in this book? http//www.aididsafar.com/pdf/Mental%20Bondage.pdf
Interested to hear of the different views.
Peace
Page 139.
Why does the Author Feel repeating Surah 108 in Salaat (ritual prayer form) is inappropiate?
As If to say, It is Inapropiate to say certin verses to God?Well so I guess People who do ritual prayers are Arrogant Boastful Egotistic Polytheist Pegan Worshipers.
Before It was Only Those who added Partners to Allah, Now lets take it a step futher ANYONE who Prostrates to Allah in prayer is an Apostate of Islam and is a Hypocrate and is a Pegan idol worshiper and deserves no honor. police
Dont bow to Nothing...not even Allah! police
Lest you be one of the Polytheists! police
-
Peace RA768,
Wow Ayman, You really Are the BEST bravo .... To be honest I did not believe it, I didnt believe it at all until I got a tase of you... Its true, you really are the best at not only making absurd claims but twisting and turning a conversation around. I am a Pro-Se, Gee, if I Ever need a Lawyer Ill be sure to give you a call. laugh
1st I Do NOT apperciate that you have said yuck Please dont insinuate that I am blind and also please Stay on topic. I have NEVER once in this thread said ANYTHING about Skin type and believers only having Prayer Marks. It not only is creating a False and Irrelavant Derailing Topic, but it gives a false Illusion that that was what I said thus making me look like an ignorant Racist Muslim (and I have never said that)
That is like me saying "Ayman!? Common brother! Are you really that cold hearted that you feel Aborting grown babies is totally cool and trendy!?"
See what I just did? I created a False story that never happened and now everyone who isnt paying attention thinks "oh wow, ayman is a real mean guy, he likes grown aborted babies."
So please...I am Not a Racist Muslim who thinks that Only Dark skinned Believers get a Prostration Mark. Stay ON TOPIC!Since getting the mark depends on skin type then it is implied in your reasoning that skin type is more important than piety. So in your world a very bad person or a terrorist or someone who physically prostrates to physical idols with the skin type that easily gets marked with contact and has a physical mark is more pious than a good person with a skin type that doesn't get marked with extended contact. Of course you didn't say this directly but it is implied by your strange logic.
Actually I disagree with you hear. It can have alot to do with the believers and Piety in the sense that there are ALOT of muslims who have it because they pray alot. And Because They Pray alot therefore they feel closer to God and are more motivated personnally to do zakat, and other Islamic Good things.
However there are some "Bad Apples" who Also have the Mark and they Still do bad things and are far from god and are terrorists.
So who wins the Good guys or the Terrorists?
I dont think its that easy for us to say.There you go with the contradictory nonsense again that a physical mark "has a lot to do with the believers and piety." You then contradict yourself again and admit that bad people will have the same exact mark as good guys. So you know that the physical mark is irrelevant and yet you insist on this nonsense. This is a sign that you are lost.
I would Conclude that for the "Good Muslims with the Prostration Mark" they not only (obviously) do Physical Prayer, but mental. (A combination, where faith has Truley entered in their heart.)
Then I would say that the "Terrorist Bad Muslims who also have the Prostration Mark" Do Prayer just like the Above (good guys) however Faith has NOT entered their heart and all they are doing is Excersise. They are merely repeating words, doing motions, and ultimatley Achieving NOTHING.Your conclusion is 100% false. How do you know that they are "good muslims"? How about "good muslims" without the physical mark? Are they not as pious? It is NOT a combination. The physical mark is 100% irrelevant.
Ayman I will Once gain tell you that you are making me Angry. > And in a Polite way, I would really Apperciate it if you would stop this.
I do not like the part where you stated that I lied.You are Falsy Accusing me of something I did not do. If you would like me to call you out...I could.
I could say that you are then breaking a Quranic Rule against Slander. I have Never Ever Ever EVER said Please dont slander. I have never said that...I have please Copy and Paste it so I can see. I dont believe I said God told me to go around a Stone in white Sheets. If I in FACT did and forgot then I Sincearly Appoligize to you and everone here for forgetting.
According to my Current knowldge of Islam (I am a new convert, roughly 2 years now) and my Interpretation, The Kaba in Mecca is the Quibla.
So I pray towards it as that is what I know/been taught. I have Already read this debate with you and Edip on this aswell as heard Everyone's interpretation from Layth, Simple, herbman, Sarah, etc...etc...etc...etc...
So I wish not to debate this tedious topic. I have my interpretation and you have yours. At a latter time When I am ready to fully understand and expound on Quranic Knowldge I might reconsiter. For now, I feel its either Jerusalam or its Mecca...and I have more on Mecca then Jerusalam.Irrespective of those debates, why would you wear those white sheets?
Those white sheets have a direct relation to the false pagan idea that you would return sinless like a newborn if you kiss the black stone and spin 7 times around a black cube.
Nowhere that I have heard. I am not arguing this fact, I admit I agree with you on this one.
It is good that unlike Zulu, you are decent and mature enough to admit that the god never told you to go around any stone in white sheets.
I Would never (Conciously) Attribute a Lie to God Mr. Ayman. police Watch your Tone Cheif! police
I only said or believed that Allah has told me to do Hajj (Pilrgimage)...however I agree that I have NEVER heard Allah Tell me to Dress in white sheets and circle a Black box 7 times chanting his name.Or kiss a black stone or that you will return sinless like a newborn upon doing those things.
It doesn't matter if you are doing it conciously or unconciously, the result is the same. Most, if not all, Christians and Sunnis will equally claim that they are not attributing lies to the god.
The question is now that YOU KNOW that those are lies, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
Are you going to continue to happily believe in spinning 7 times around a black box and kissing or weaving to a black stone while wearing white sheets?
The ONLY thing I heard Allah say (in the Quran) is to make the Hajj, feed the Poor, resist fighting, Send a Gift, vistit the house, and no blame on me if I decide to go around Safa and Mawrah (sighns of God).... Thats ALL I read from Allah. (I admit this and have never stated otherwise...unless I forgot).
So you know that wearing white sheets and spinning 7 times around a cube has nothing to so with what you know is the purpose of "hajj"! What are you going to do about it?
I have not said this...This is actually YOUR conclusion...not Mine.
Please be well advised that I do not believe the Important thing is the mental or physical apect. I believe in Duality (at least for myself) as the best means for creating a daily conection with Allah. I feel that an ARM is just as Important as a Leg...or for a better example...a Mental Hijab is just as Important as a Physical one.
to me one with out the other may not be 100% to my needs. I require both, unless I am physically unable to do so and must then sacrifice my physical prostraion...and really really really try hard to improve my mental. (such as if I was sick or was physically unable to do so as I was on a Bus or plane.) to me Mental is bare minumum...perhaps still acceptible but bear minumum. add the physical and you got one cool Prayer!If you really believe in duality and in the physical aspect being important then you would need to interpret the passages physically. If you interpret them physically then "sujud" must be to the chin and not the forehead!
P.s. About the White Sheets and circling the Kaba 7 times etc....
Yes It may not be in the Quran...but does this make it Bad and Haraam? is All tradition Haraam? or is ONLY the Tradition that is Shirk Haraam?Yes it is bad and HARAAM to take what you admit to have no knoweldge of and make it part of what the god has asked you to do. It is bad to follow blindly. Especially, in this case the white sheets and the spinning 7 times around a black cube have NOTHING to do with the purposes of "hajj" and have everything to do with the false purpose of "returning sinless like a newborn".
you see I have realized something... I think that Tradtional Islam may not be bad afterall. Maybe just Maybe... The ONLY BAD thing about Tradtional Islam is the Shirk and Abrogative Hadiths to the Quran.
What else is worst than "shirk" (the only unforgiveable sin)?! Yet you happily and blindly follow the path of those who commit "shirk".
But what If we cut those two things out? would it STILL be bad?
You didn't cut them out. You are still following them blindly!
If anything, you added new junk such as Code 19 and Khalifa's Hadiths with which you abrogate the great reading!
Peace,
Ayman
