Some more challenge for Arab linguists
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Dear quickduck, I greatly appreciate your honesty above for accepting the obvious facts. Although, it seems you did not review the Lane's link page for meaning of word . It is not just a possesive particle, but a word with meanings as mentioned above in my post.
Badar
peace,
i'm just wondering why would you like me to learn arabic (my mother tongue) via an english lexicon?
I really Don't need it!! At least for a strongly obvious nickname (ie abu/abaa/abii lahab ) just like (abu/abaa/abii hurayra)Salam
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Peace
Are we one hundred percent sure that if in this day and age we grow up in an Arabic speaking family, we will be speaking and writing the exact same Arabic as was spoken and written 1400 years ago or more.
Also , please see that understanding of any thing can come from any source. Lanes lexicon is not at all an English Book. It is only an authentic translation of multiple Books, such as Lisaan ul Arab, taj al uroos, and multiple other books written by Arab speaking linguists and language experts, who were trying to preserve the classical arabic, in order to preserve the understanding of the Qur'Aanic language meanings. The authenticity of Qad ul Qamoos ( Lanes Lexicon) has never been disputed by the scholars, as he has not made any attempts at put anything on his own and he has never tried to translate the script of Qur'Aan.
He has simply tanslated all the meanings from the time of classical arabic, as expressed and given by the previous Arab linguistic experts, and hence is perhaps the most exhaustive work on such a subject.One should not feel ashamed at all by learning from these great Arab scholars whose work was translated painstakingly in more than 30 years by this great transltor of the previous Arabic lexicons. All languaes change in meaning, expression, script and even in concept over time. This was the main reason of the language preservation by these great Arab scholars centuries ago. I do not believe that any one can claim that in present day and age, we write and speak the exact same Arabic as was written and spoken by the Prophet and his Companions. Hence reference to these Books should always be made, just to be sure and careful, and then use our judgement. As an example, a mere statement by an English person, that he or she can understand every thing from Shakespeare, just because he or she grew up in an English family, is not sufficient enough reason to make one claim that he or she understand every thing that Shakespear said. The time difference between now and Shakespeare is only a few hundred years, and every thing seem to have changed. The time difference between classical arabic and the current era is over thousand years, so just imagine the slow changes that is bound to happen. Moreover the changes in language happens not only with time but the same language changes its form every 50 or 100 miles, even in the same country, especially in the olden days. Hence the preserved meaning sources for the area and the time where and when Qur'Aan was first revealed, becomes very imprtant, in order to avoid any misunderstanding.
I understand that we all have noble intentions and we all fear our Creator and try our best to understand His message. Hence all help is useful and not a waste of time.
Best regards and paryer for all those who are participating in this noble cause.
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One should not feel ashamed at all by learning from these great Arab scholars whose work was translated painstakingly in more than 30 years by this great transltor of the previous Arabic lexicons.
The one who made him or hired him to write and financed him and his family is perhaps also worthy of mention and our appreciation.
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Peace all,
I never disaprroved english lane's lexicon. What i said is that the same word could be a noun and a verb in the same time.
Let's took the english name/verb "reason"source http//www.thefreedictionary.com
As a Noun
Noun
- reason a rational motive for a belief or action; "the reason that war was declared"; "the grounds for their declaration"
rational motive - a motive that can be defended by reasoning or logical argument
occasion - reason; "there was no occasion for complaint"
account, score - grounds; "don't do it on my account"; "the paper was rejected on account of its length"; "he tried to blame the victim but his success on that score was doubtful"
wherefore, why - the cause or intention underlying an action or situation, especially in the phrase `the whys and wherefore
2. reason an explanation of the cause of some phenomenon; "the reason a steady state was never reached was that the back pressure built up too slowly"
explanation, account - a statement that makes something comprehensible by describing the relevant structure or operation or circumstances etc.; "the explanation was very simple"; "I expected a brief account"- reason the state of having good sense and sound judgment; "his rationality may have been impaired"; "he had to rely less on reason than on rousing their emotions"
rationality, reasonableness
saneness, sanity - normal or sound powers of mind - reason a justification for something existing or happening; "he had no cause to complain"; "they had good reason to rejoice"
cause, grounds, justification - a statement in explanation of some action or belief - reason a fact that logically justifies some premise or conclusion; "there is reason to believe he is lying"
fact - a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred; "first you must collect all the facts of the case"
indication - (medicine) a reason to prescribe a drug or perform a procedure; "the presence of bacterial infection was an indication for the use of antibiotics"
contraindication - (medicine) a reason that makes it inadvisable to prescribe a particular drug or employ a particular procedure or treatment.
As a verb Verb
- reason - decide by reasoning; draw or come to a conclusion; "We reasoned that it was cheaper to rent than to buy a house" conclude, reason out cerebrate, cogitate, think - use or exercise the mind or one's power of reason in order to make inferences, decisions, or arrive at a solution or judgments; "I've been thinking all day and getting nowhere"
induce - reason or establish by induction
deduce, derive, infer, deduct - reason by deduction; establish by deduction
syllogise, syllogize - reason by syllogisms
feel, find - come to believe on the basis of emotion, intuitions, or indefinite grounds; "I feel that he doesn't like me"; "I find him to be obnoxious"; "I found the movie rather entertaining"
deduce, infer - conclude by reasoning; in logic
gather - conclude from evidence; "I gather you have not done your homework"
extrapolate, generalize, infer, generalise - draw from specific cases for more general cases. - reason - present reasons and arguments
argue
re-argue - argue again; "This politician will be forced into re-arguing an old national campaign"
present, lay out, represent - bring forward and present to the mind; "We presented the arguments to him"; "We cannot represent this knowledge to our formal reason"
expostulate - reason with (somebody) for the purpose of dissuasion
defend, fend for, support - argue or speak in defense of; "She supported the motion to strike" - reason - think logically; "The children must learn to reason"
cerebrate, cogitate, think - use or exercise the mind or one's power of reason in order to make inferences, decisions, or arrive at a solution or judgments; "I've been thinking all day and getting nowhere"
rationalise away, rationalize away - substitute a natural for a supernatural explanation of; "you can rationalize away all the strange noises you hear--there is no poltergeist in the house!"
theorize - form or construct theories; "he thinks and theorizes all day"
theorize - construct a theory about; "Galileo theorized the motion of the stars"
ratiocinate - reason methodologically and logically
compute, calculate, cipher, cypher, figure, reckon, work out - make a mathematical calculation or computation
categorise, categorize - place into or assign to a category; "Children learn early on to categorize"
speculate - talk over conjecturally, or review in an idle or casual way and with an element of doubt or without sufficient reason to reach a conclusion; "We were speculating whether the President had to resign after the scandal"
As you can see, the same word can be used as well as a noun AND as a verb!
But, depending on the context, one should easily figure out whether the form used is a noun or a verb.
ex if i tell you " i have no reason to agree with you"
Do you take as a noun, or as a verb ?
salam
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Salaam,
Lesson in English.
Definition of a noun A word used as the designation or appellation of a creature
or thing, existing in fact or in thought; a substantive.
To put it simply a noun is a name, like 'that's a chair', chair, would be a name so a noun.
Definition of a verb A word which affirms or predicates something of
some person or thing; a part of speech expressing being,
action, or the suffering of action.
To put it simply a verb is a descriptive word, like 'I smashed the chair', smashed would be an action so a verb.
So 'reason' within your example you give, is an adjective.
Definition of an adjective A word used with a noun, or substantive, to
express a quality of the thing named, or something
attributed to it, or to limit or define it, or to specify
or describe a thing, as distinct from something else.
Thus, in phrase, "a wise ruler," wise is the adjective,
expressing a property of ruler.
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Salaam Quickduck,
you demonstrate within you post an absolute failure to grasp the very basics of the English language, you apply nouns, and verbs as interchangeable when you are in fact wrong on both counts, when the word 'reason' is an adjective, then you ask me what it has to do with the Arabic you have explained with gibberish.
If you do not understand English at even a very basic level, what makes you think you have the ability to present yourself as an expert in explaining Arabic to English?
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Salaam Quickduck,
you demonstrate within you post an absolute failure to grasp the very basics of the English language, you apply nouns, and verbs as interchangeable when you are in fact wrong on both counts, when the word 'reason' is an adjective, then you ask me what it has to do with the Arabic you have explained with gibberish.
If you do not understand English at even a very basic level, what makes you think you have the ability to present yourself as an expert in explaining Arabic to English?
where did you see me presenting myself as an expert in explaining Arabic to English ?
Let me re-quote myself
is composed of two parts (wich means father) and a "grammatical "
the second word (lahab ) means "flame".
So "Abi lahab" means literarly father of the flame.Let me explain
I bet everyone here knows the infamous abou hurayra , translated as ''father of a little cat'' . it has the same form as "abou lahab" . (BTW, we should not translate them because they are kind of compound names/nicknames used by the arabs to show repect or to differenciate between people with the same first name or even for fun).
Now this form of nicknaming may have 3 grammatical "states"
1- Marfoo3 , ie .when standalone or in the beginning of the sentence.
(Abou lahab .... Abou hurayra
2- Mansoob , When used as complement of a verb (ex I killed Abaa lahab .... I hate Abaa hurayra)3- Majroor , after some grammatical particles. (i dont agree with Abii lahab.... i will start by Abii hurayra)
so it is a noun , not a verb )
Hope this helps ..
Salam
P.S my english is not as rich as my arabic, so excuse me if i didn't use the correct words to express my answer.
you see ? are the words in red from someone pretending to by any expert in translating arabic to english ? whatever
We are discussing an ARABIC word (ي in an ARABIC Quran. we have to do it in english only because this forum is english.
I don't need any translation or subtitles when reading the Quran, because i read it in Arabic. muscle
Moreover, do you know the "five names rule" in arabic grammar ??
check this out
http//ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%A1_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AE%D9%85%D8%B3%D8%A9For non-arabic speakers This rule talks about five names/words being as un exception to grammatical rules.
While every name/word has to be Marfoo3 with dhomma, Mansoob with fatha and majroor with kesra , those 5 names ( و are
1- marfoo3 with waw
2-Mansoob with alif
3-Majroor with yaaNow, is that helping you understand the ''Abii lahab" in 1111 ??
If not, i don't feel myself able to explain anymore !
Salam
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Quickduck, weldone, but you have given link which is in Arabic.
Here it is in English
The Six Nounshttp//arabic.tripod.com/SixNouns.htm
Thank you Mazhar, i couldnt find it in english, you did !
BTW, it is very instructive. Now i know what are the english names for "marfoo3" = nominative, "mansoob" = accusative and "majroor" = genitive.
Salam
P.S because the 5th noun (ن is too rarely used, the six nouns are much known as "the five nouns"
But, the three Mousqueteers were 4 !!! ) -
Dear all, my contention about the word in question in verse 1111; is that, it is neither a verb nor a noun. The ones who content it to be noun are presenting twisted rules of established Arabic grammar just to make it fit as a noun in the verse. Which, I have shown clearly in discussion above. Also shown the break down into two separate words, of this so called word; based on simple Arabic grammar rules above. Which not body has said to be not according to the rules. Based on rules discussed the translation is presented as well. Please read and re-read this translation. Does it not appear to elevate that status of Rabb and message, at much higher level? Please contrast this understanding with traditional one. In traditional understanding, it appears that Rabb is acting just like any other human, cursing and threatening others, when not in agreement. Is this how, we know or want to know our Rabb?
Peace.
Badar
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Dear all, my contention about the word in question in verse 1111; is that, it is neither a verb nor a noun.
Badaryes,it is neither a verb nor a noun.
it is composed of Three initals (أ and (ب and (ي .i will count the number of occurences in that chapter of every initial and with some luck , maybe they will add up to 19 divisible.
rotflsalam
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Dear quickduck, I greatly appreciate your willing to participate in this discussion. Although we may have different takes on things, but eventually open discussions may help mutually.
My next query to all is this, in Arabic any noun used has to be appropriated from four grammatical points. In order for it be properly used in a sentence. One of these points is sex of the noun. The sex of a noun in Arabic can be determined in three ways.
- A natural sex, for instance natural pairs. Like mother and father. What they call as .
- By listening to people of language as what they consider as male or female.
- Finally all nouns sex in Arabic, is considered as male unless there are markers present to make and identify nouns as females. These markers are , and .
For instance, word means green. However, to make fit a female sense it will be used as .
It would be hard to English only understanding people, to understand the difference rendered by these markers to the meanings of respective words. But there are Urdu speaking people on this forum as well. For them,
In Urdu we say , using female of green. whereas we also say (I am using an arabic type writer, hence can not type gaaf, therefore typed it with a kaf). The Arabic is equivalent of first sense of Green in Urdu, and second
My question based on the above is, that it clearly proves that adding these makers do not change, the root meanings of the said word. These only change these markers bring is, of sex from male to female noun, without altering core root meanings conveyed by "alphabetic/consonant root". Is this a correct understanding?
Peace
Badar
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It seems like, I have asked a very difficult question again.
Peace,
Badar
yes
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For instance, word means green. However, to make fit a female sense it will be used as .
.......First of all, let me remind you that the rule for sex nouns in arabic (for nouns that have the weight Af3al)
Green (male) =
Green (female) =
Green (plural) =.
Quran 7621Salam
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quickduck, greatly appreciate your response. I would be happy to discuss grammatical issues, you are raising about the word under discussion. But let me ask, do you agree with my conclusion about female makers as not a part of roots of words? In addition, not imparting or changing actual meanings of the roots, besides just changing sex of the meaning of root word.
Peace,
Badar