Peacemaking and Peacemakers in the Great Reading
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Peace Herbman,
Thanks Mazhar, Ayman and someone.
Yes it is (was) quiet confuse and still need to re-read everything to put every thing in place.
Your help is really appreciated.The problem is with confusing forms II and IV. Form II carries the meaning of surrender. If this was the intended primary meaning then the god would have said
instead of
Not knowing the difference between Forms II and IV is why some people confuse in 271 with (without a medial Shadda) as we saw above.
The primary meaning of the Masdar SaLAM// is "freedom of harm" and "peace" is implied as a meaning.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Herbman,
The problem is with confusing forms II and IV. Form II carries the meaning of surrender. If this was the intended primary meaning then the god would have said
instead of
Not knowing the difference between Forms II and IV is why some people confuse in 271 with (without a medial Shadda) as we saw above.
The primary meaning of the Masdar SaLAM// is "freedom of harm" and "peace" is implied as a meaning.
Peace,
Ayman
Things seems to have been reversed.
He was safe
He made safe; he greeted.
He surrendered, became subservient, allegiant; and nature of surrender is evident from the meanings of Root, pure and absolute, void of any reservation.
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Things seems to have been reversed.
He was safe
He made safe; he greeted.He surrendered, became subservient, allegiant; and nature of surrender is evident from the meanings of Root, pure and absolute, void of any reservation.
004.065
YUSUFALI But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
PICKTHAL But nay, by thy Lord, they will not believe (in truth) until they make thee judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of that which thou decidest, and submit with full submission.
SHAKIR But no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission.form II whose Masdar is of the pattern is used in 465 to mean surrender.
Peace,
Ayman
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form II whose Masdar is of the pattern is used in 465 to mean surrender. Aymen
If one goes by these translators , they translate the same Form-II verb, though correctly here;
008.043
YUSUFALI Remember in thy dream Allah showed them to thee as few if He had shown them to thee as many, ye would surely have been discouraged, and ye would surely have disputed in (your) decision; but Allah saved (you) for He knoweth well the (secrets) of (all) hearts.
PICKTHAL When Allah showed them unto thee (O Muhammad) in thy dream as few in number, and if He had shown them to thee as many, ye (Muslims) would have faltered and would have quarrelled over the affair. But Allah saved (you). Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).
SHAKIR When Allah showed them to you in your dream as few; and if He had shown them to you as many you would certainly have become weak-hearted and you would have disputed about the matter, but Allah saved (you); surely He is the Knower of what is in the breasts. -
He made safe; he greeted. Mazhar
024.027
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! enter not houses other than your own, until ye have asked permission and saluted those in them that is best for you, in order that ye may heed (what is seemly).
PICKTHAL O ye who believe! Enter not houses other than your own without first announcing your presence and invoking peace upon the folk thereof. That is better for you, that ye may be heedful.
SHAKIR O you who believe! Do not enter houses other than your own houses until you have asked permission and saluted their inmates; this is better for you, that you may be mindful. -
He made safe; he greeted. Mazhar
024.061
YUSUFALI But if ye enter houses, salute each other - a greeting of blessing and purity as from Allah.
PICKTHAL But when ye enter houses, salute one another with a greeting from Allah, blessed and sweet.
SHAKIR So when you enter houses, greet your people with a salutation from Allah, blessed (and) goodly; -
Based on my collective reading of different fields I lean towards islam being peace as well as it's associated words. I think some people are adamant on fixating a single word to islam and not seeing the bigger picture.
Submission connotes a master slave relationship between our Creator whereas I see it as complete opposite based on our Creator giving us freedom to choose the paths we take in life....far from a submissive relationship I see
PEACE
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Submission connotes a master slave relationship between our Creator whereas I see it as complete opposite based on our Creator giving us freedom to choose the paths we take in life....far from a submissive relationship I see
The important field seems to have been missed in study
And I did not create the groups of Jinn and Human beings except for the purpose that they should, by will and affection, submit to subservience/allegiance to Me .
This is acceptance of Master slave relationship by excericising free will which is the cause of creation of everything.
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If one goes by these translators , they translate the same Form-II verb, though correctly here;
The Arabic was quoted first before the translators for the very reason that form II in 465 meaning "surrender"/"give in" is immediately apparent to an Arabic speaker. There is no need for over-complication. In mundane normal Arabic usage an average Arabic speaker would clearly understand "sallam sela7h" to mean surrendered/gave in his weapon and not saved or saluted the weapon in this context. So depending on the context is the appropriate word to use for conveying "surrender/giving in" any object xxxx and therefore should have been used instead of in if surrendering his xxxx was the intended meaning. The confusion is caused by forcing a meaning from Form II on Form IV.
Peace,
Ayman
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The Arabic was quoted first before the translators for the very reason that form II in 465 meaning "surrender"/"give in" is immediately apparent to an Arabic speaker. There is no need for over-complication. In mundane normal Arabic usage an average Arabic speaker would clearly understand "sallam sela7h" to mean surrendered/gave in his weapon and not saved or saluted the weapon in this context. So depending on the context is the appropriate word to use for conveying "surrender/giving in" any object xxxx and therefore should have been used instead of in if surrendering his xxxx was the intended meaning. The confusion is caused by forcing a meaning from Form II on Form IV.
Peace,
Ayman
Merely by one omission of these translators Form-II cannot be considered to denote what is signified by form-IV. At all other places of occurrence of Form-II they have translated it as save, protect and salutation, greeting, as I have quoted three examples.
surrender, yield, submit, succumb to, give in. ( ط
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The important field seems to have been missed in study
And I did not create the groups of Jinn and Human beings except for the purpose that they should, by will and affection, submit to subservience/allegiance to Me .
This is acceptance of Master slave relationship by excericising free will which is the cause of creation of everything.
I prefer a better interpretation of the word 'serve' NOT 'subservience/allegiance' in your quote of 5156. Serving God doesn't still prove to me its a master slave relationship between us and God. The very freedom of choices we have as humans is more strong empirical evidence for me that we are not slaves to God.
I guess it comes down to how we both interpret the word slave in english. I guess in one meaning of the word we are slaves of God as we are His property but we do have the freedom He has bestowed on us to follow whatever path.
PEACE
PEACE
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I prefer a better interpretation of the word 'serve' NOT 'subservience/allegiance' in your quote of 5156. Serving God doesn't still prove to me its a master slave relationship between us and God. The very freedom of choices we have as humans is more strong empirical evidence for me that we are not slaves to God.
I guess it comes down to how we both interpret the word slave in english. I guess in one meaning of the word we are slaves of God as we are His property but we do have the freedom He has bestowed on us to follow whatever path.
I agree with you, all depends on how we interpret the word slave in a way I think we are all submitted indeed, we are all forced to obey Gods laws, (even non-believers) I am thinking on the natural laws for example like gravity law... in other matters we received freedom of choice to obey Him and submit to Him or not. And here something else is playing a role. Even when we submit/obey willingly, in free-choice, what is the intention, what is the motivation of this submission? A slave will simply obey out of fear for punishment or for possible reward, while in other way someone else will obey simply of knowledge that this is the best to do even because of Love for God. In the second possibility I don't think the subject sees himself as a slave!!
Peace.
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Merely by one omission of these translators Form-II cannot be considered to denote what is signified by form-IV. At all other places of occurrence of Form-II they have translated it as save, protect and salutation, greeting, as I have quoted three examples.
surrender, yield, submit, succumb to, give in. ( طThere is no point in arguing about a fact that every translator and Arabic speaker knows independent of any specific text and is easily verifiable. Go ask any neutral person on this forum or anywhere who knows Arabic how they would translate
- surrendered/gave in his weapon
OR - saved or saluted his weapon
Once you understand the unbiased person answer then you will know that form II definitely has the connotation of surrender and form IV definitely has the connotation of peacemaking.
- surrendered/gave in his weapon
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Go ask any neutral person on this forum or anywhere who knows Arabic how they would translate
- surrendered/gave in his weapon
OR - saved or saluted his weapon
Where to find a neutral person, more neutral than the writers/compiles of Classical Arabic lexicons. Your problem is the English version of the above sentence since for weapon we have to use in English the word "surrendered" and from there you are not ready to accept all the Arabic lexicons.
The above situation is described in Lane's lexicon also--.
Read page 1412 vol-IV entry 2 and move to page 1413, may be your confusion gets over, Allah willing. - surrendered/gave in his weapon
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Where to find a neutral person, more neutral than the writers/compiles of Classical Arabic lexicons. Your problem is the English version of the above sentence since for weapon we have to use in English the word "surrendered" and from there you are not ready to accept all the Arabic lexicons.
The above situation is described in Lane's lexicon also--.
Read page 1412 vol-IV entry 2 and move to page 1413, may be your confusion gets over, Allah willing.Yielding is in fact a synonym of giving in/surrendering and not of "save or salute" but maybe you need a neutral English person too to confirm this for you. So the English and Arabic neutral persons will perfectly agree but still the problem is that you did not like it and can't change.
When you find a neutral Arabic person you may also ask them about the difference of form II "massak"/"gave to hold" and form IV "amsak"/"held". In this case too, form II has the giving aspect while Form IV has the aspect of making.
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I agree with you, all depends on how we interpret the word slave in a way I think we are all submitted indeed, we are all forced to obey Gods laws, (even non-believers) I am thinking on the natural laws for example like gravity law... in other matters we received freedom of choice to obey Him and submit to Him or not. And here something else is playing a role. Even when we submit/obey willingly, in free-choice, what is the intention, what is the motivation of this submission? A slave will simply obey out of fear for punishment or for possible reward, while in other way someone else will obey simply of knowledge that this is the best to do even because of Love for God. In the second possibility I don't think the subject sees himself as a slave!!
Peace.
I agree with your comment I've highlighted also to add.....religions teach fear to serve God and not islam hence why I never see relationship between humans and God as a master slave relationship in the deen of islam.
PEACE
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Yielding is in fact a synonym of giving in/surrendering and not of "save or salute" but maybe you need a neutral English person too to confirm this for you. So the English and Arabic neutral persons will perfectly agree but still the problem is that you did not like it and can't change.
When you find a neutral Arabic person you may also ask them about the difference of form II "massak"/"gave to hold" and form IV "amsak"/"held". In this case too, form II has the giving aspect while Form IV has the aspect of making.
Yielding
Yielding is a form of social etiquette, with one person allowing access to another person or persons.
In political elections, a losing candidate may yield to the other candidate. This process is known as concession. Preferably this is to be done after the votes are counted.
In traffic, drivers entering a larger road are usually required to yield to cars in the larger road to avoid a fiery collision.
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Computed Synonyms yielding
Rank Intensity Word Synonyms Synonyms of synonym
1 227.0596 yielding yield give in, produce, cede, return, relinquish
2 81.0092 yielding produce yield, make, create, bear, cause
3 70.0092 yielding give yield, donate, render, present, bestow
4 63.0092 yielding compliant docile, pliable, tractable, pliant, obedient
5 58.0093 yielding sell vend, to sell, carry, dispose of, yield
6 58.0093 yielding present gift, offer, introduce, give, current
7 57.0092 yielding flexible pliable, supple, elastic, lithe, versatile
8 55.0091 yielding supple flexible, pliable, pliant, lithe, elastic
9 55.0091 yielding pliable pliant, flexible, supple, lithe, elastic
10 54.0091 yielding soft tender, gentle, mild, limp, sweet
11 54.0091 yielding proffer offer, present, perform, act, play
12 51.3095 yielding giving give, yield, hand over, render, provide
13 50.0091 yielding carry take, bear, to carry, convey, bring
14 49.0093 yielding return go back, turn, returns, yield, bring back
15 49.0092 yielding bear carry, endure, bore, abide, bearing -
Peace all,
just to clarify because arguments are good from both side
from one side we have
FORM II
He made safe; he greeted.
FORM IV
He surrendered, became subservient, allegiant
so, we have
form II means "save" as in 843
form II means salute/greeting as in 2427 see also 2461form IV means "submit"
at the other side we have the opposite meaning
FORM II
He surrendered, became subservient, allegiant
FORM IV
He made safe;
form II whose Masdar is of the pattern is used in 465 to mean surrender.
form II means "surrender" as in 465
465
YUSUFALI But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
PICKTHAL But nay, by thy Lord, they will not believe (in truth) until they make thee judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of that which thou decidest, and submit with full submission.
SHAKIR But no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission.formIV means "to make peace/safe"
From the above I can say one thing
In the example of form II meaning "greeting", it is maybe important to notice the form II is used with the particule 'ala "", I think it is important because a particule can change completly the meaning of a word whatever form he has.
example in english to GIVE and to GIVE UP does not mean the same.
The same can be applied in arabic for exemple with DARABA and DARAB 'ALA.maybe the same apply to Aslamu li e.g. 2112, 2131
could have another meaning with the same form II! Don't you think?
Conclusion, if we remove the salam 'ala and salama li , what remains are the 2 above examples
form II means "surrender" as in 465
vs
form II means "save" as in 843a deeper study with other form II example is therefore needed
sallama vb. (2)
perf. act. 2233, 843
impf. act. 465, 2427
impv. 2461, 3356
n.vb. 465, 3322, 3356
pcple. pass. f. 271, 492, 492
what about axample of form IV
I think more example of form IV can help determining its meaning.
from PRL
perf. act. 2112, 2131, 320, 320, 320, 383, 4125, 544, 614, 2744, 37103, 4914, 4917, 7214
impf. act. 671, 1681, 3122, 4066, 4816
impv. 2131, 2234, 3954
n.vb. 319, 385, 53, 6125, 974, 3922, 4917, 617
pcple. act. 2128, 2128, 2132, 2133, 2136, 352, 364, 367, 380, 384, 3102, 5111, 6163, 7126, 1072, 1084, 1090, 1114, 12101, 152, 1689, 16102, 21108, 2278, 2731, 2738, 2742, 2781, 2791, 2853, 2946, 3053, 3335, 3335, 3912, 4133, 4369, 4615, 5136, 665, 6835, 7214Peace