Non-muslims in Jannah?
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First, you said..."Allah is quite clear how he will judge people who explicitly or implicitly deny the messenger and therefore the divine origin of the Qur'an. He will burn them in hell forever. Playing semantic games with the clear words of Allah is a form of kufr."
Even if Allah is quite clear (we humans are weak and what should be clear, often isn't), would you be so cocky as to know how God will judge in every situation?
What "situations" can you conceive of in which Allah will judge otherwise?
Could you, considering you know all about how God will judge....
I am only going by what the Qur'an says page after page ie that Allah will burn disbelievers in hell. Would you like a list of quotes? I see no evidence therein that there are situations where he will allow kafirs to enter the garden under any circumstances. Perhaps you could provide some.
...take his job as judge for a little while? If not, then you should show some humility before you drop some Kufr bombs.
Why am I showing a lack of "humility" by presenting the bare fact, backed up with quotes from the Qur'an, that there is no way Allah is going to do anything but burn burn burn Jews, Christians or anyone else who explicitly or implicitly denies the prophethood of Muhammad etc?
You also brought up this verse...
Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works? They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) VAIN will be their WORKS, NOR SHALL WE, ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT, GIVE THEM ANY WEIGHT. That is their reward, HELL, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest. 18103-106How much clearer than that can you get? If you implicitly or explicitly disbelieve in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of the Qur'an your deeds won't count for squat."
In this verse, those who think they are acquiring good are probably those who sin and concentrate on the material goods of the world thinking that their wealth is good (referenced many times in the quran).
Indeed this verse surely does cover such people. However, this does not mean its applicability is LIMITED to them, as verse 919 clarifies
Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
See? Giving drinks to thirsty pilgrims - clearly a good deed - does not save a Kafir from being regarded as a "wrongDOER" in Allah's eyes. Do you deny that the greatest "wrong" in the sight of Allah is denying his signs?
We are talking about a good Jew so denying Judgement is not an issue.
That is right. A "good" Jew - like a "good" Christian - is according to the Qur'an one who accepts the prophethood of Muhammad
They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate.They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good works They are in the ranks of the righteous.Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knows well those that do right. (3.113-115)
Again, it is not an explicit or implicit contradiction to say that someone could deny the messenger and the Quran using your definition (which I dislike) and still get into heaven.
It is not MY definition. It is Allah's, who provides numerous examples of where the term "Kafir" is properly applied to people.
This verse says they rejected Faith, and took MY Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
So you are saying that in order to qualify as a Kafir a person must both
- "reject faith"
AND
- "take signs and messengers by way of jest"
????
Suppose they are just guilty of (1). Does that mean Allah will not regard them as a Kafir and treat them gently on judgement day?
Other verses which we have gone over say that Jews, Christians, Sabians and all those who believe in God, the Last Day, and do Good will have nothing to fear.
ONE verse says this. Are you claiming that Jews, Christians, Sabians et al who explicitly or implicitly reject the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin the Qur'an might still be regarded by Allah as "believers in God" and "doers of good"?
This latter verse can be seen as an at least statement. At least do this (believe in God, etc), and you will not have anything to fear. and the former verse can be seen as a you did all of this bad stuff in conjunction, not just deny the Quran (using your definition of course).
You can read anything you like into anything with enough wishful thinking and mental gymnastics.
It doesn't explicity say that if you believe in God, judgement, and do good, that if you deny the quran, you will go to hell.
Only a complete self deluder or out and out deceit-monger would draw any other conclusion from the Qur'an as a whole.
Again though, I have gone over multiple times what I think denial is or taking "My signs and my messengers by way of jest" is. It is being a bad person.
Yes it is being a "bad person" as Allah defines a "bad person"
Those who reject among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein . They are the WORST of creatures.(987)
Mere profession is no means of denial but I've gone over this in practically all my last posts. I feel that you are not adequately addressing my definition.
Au contraire....I have done so thoroughly.
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Salaam,
First of all...
You did not answer my question. If you know how God will judge in the situations we are discussing, could you take his job? If not, humble yourself. Your human like the rest of us. You should not show 100% certainty in your interpretation regardless of how clear the Quran is.Secondly...
"I am only going by what the Qur'an says page after page ie that Allah will burn disbelievers in hell. Would you like a list of quotes? I see no evidence therein that there are situations where he will allow kafirs to enter the garden under any circumstances. Perhaps you could provide some."Perhaps you can show me where I have said explicitly that "kafirs are going to heaven" (I haven't). Rather, I have argued that your definition of kafir is incredibly flawed.
Next you said...
"Indeed this verse surely does cover such people. However, this does not mean its applicability is LIMITED to them, as verse 919 clarifies
Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
See? Giving drinks to thirsty pilgrims - clearly a good deed - does not save a Kafir from being regarded as a "wrongDOER" in Allah's eyes. Do you deny that the greatest "wrong" in the sight of Allah is denying his signs?"This verse talks about those who commit shirk and disbelieve in Allah and the Last Day (see 917 where it says "idolators". We are not discussing shirk. We are looking at cases involving Jews, Christians, Sabians, those who believe in Allah and the last day and do good; do not include those Muslims, people of the book or others who live in a state of shirk (unless they have passed that stage and have asked for forgiveness). Please bring me relevent verses to discuss.
Next...
"That is right. A "good" Jew - like a "good" Christian - is according to the Qur'an one who accepts the prophethood of Muhammad
They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate.They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good works They are in the ranks of the righteous.Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knows well those that do right. (3.113-115)"I looked at nearly 10 translations and I could not find the portion in parentheses. You didn't happen to add it did you? Please do not assume your conclusion, prove it.
Next...
"So you are saying that in order to qualify as a Kafir a person must both- "reject faith"
AND - "take signs and messengers by way of jest"
?
Suppose they are just guilty of (1). Does that mean Allah will not regard them as a Kafir and treat them gently on judgement day?"
No, I am saying that there is not an explicit contradiction between saying that someone who disbelieves in Allah, and the last day and takes his signs and messengers by way of jest will go to hell and saying that someone who believes in allah, the last day, and does good will go to heaven. In one case, we have people who believe in allah and the last day and in the other we have people who do not. In order for there to be a contradiction, the circumstances would have to be the same. Thus, I feel it is best to take verse 262 at face value. Those who believe in God, the last day and do good will go to heaven regardless of what their professions (remember, words are cheap) concerning the Quran or the Prophet are.
Next...
"You can read anything you like into anything with enough wishful thinking and mental gymnastics.
Only a complete self deluder or out and out deceit-monger would draw any other conclusion from the Qur'an as a whole."These statement are irrelevant as they neither strengthen your case nor weaken my case. Please bring arguments, not insults.
Finally you say...
"Yes it is being a "bad person" as Allah defines a "bad person"
Those who reject among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein . They are the WORST of creatures.(987)"Our difference is I believe that rejection is not mere profession and you do. Our definitions of rejection in this verse are different.
Also, I would just like to ask you, do you believe in abrogation?
If not, do you believe that the verse 929 implores fighting those of the people of the book only in self defense situations since other verses concerning war in the quran prohibit fighting in any other situation?Salaam
- "reject faith"
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Quote from Wakas
929 uses the partitive "min" (from/of/among). Thus, the obvious question becomes whom out of that group? The answer is within the context.And the "context" is
(929) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as
believe not in Allah nor the Last Day,
and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger,
and follow not the Religion of Truth,
until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
Which encompasses everybody on earth who calls themselves a "Jew" or a "Christian".
The above perception is in total conflict with what has been said in the Verse.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29.gif
You people confront war, with those who do not believe in Allah, and nor believe in the Last Day;
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29a.gif
and nor they make that unlawful what Allah and His Messenger has declared unlawful
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29b.gif
and nor they acknowledge the Prescribed Truthful Code from those who were given the Book,
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29c.gif
until they pay the protection charges/tax compliantly while they are subdued/defeated.Please carefully see the conjunctions, one group is being defined with whom war is to be confrontedm not Jews and Christians.
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While I was a sunni, I remember during "my sunni school" we; the students had a debate whether Muhammad's father is in "Jannah" or "Narr" (hell) due to the following "Shahih Hadith" (legitimate rumor).
, . . .
A man ask O God messenger, where is my father? And he answered "In HELL!".
And after he's done (of doing something else), he call him up and said "Verily my father and your father both are in HELL!"
(Shahih Muslim Vol 1, pg 191)Thus.. in "Sunni's mindset" and belief
- Those who haven't got the chance to 'join sunni religion' and 'recite the shahada' and acknowledging Muhammad's prophet-hood, shall ends up in Hell.
- Muhammad can tell who and who shall go to Heaven or Hell, even those who he himself haven't got the chance to meet. (for example; his own father, supposedly named Abdullah which means Servant Of God, but alas he ends up in hell, according to his own son...)
- Sunnis are always concerned whether that guy and that lady (other people / group) shall ends up in heaven or hell. (usually the answer is hell, especially if the subject being discussed are not Sunnis)
Now.. I really find those line of thinking as "hillarious".. laugh
Salam / Peace
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First of all...
You did not answer my question. If you know how God will judge in the situations we are discussing, could you take his job?This is a nonsense question
You should not show 100% certainty in your interpretation regardless of how clear the Quran is.
How can you "interpret" "Kafirs will burn in hell" - incessantly reiterated throughout the Koran as anything but what is says except with a great deal of wishful thinking?
Perhaps you can show me where I have said explicitly that "kafirs are going to heaven" (I haven't). Rather, I have argued that your definition of kafir is incredibly flawed.
"My" definition of "Kafir" is the Qur'an's definition ie someone who in words or conduct explicitly or implicitly denies the divine origin of the Qur'an/prophethood of Muhammad - which are two sides of the same coin.
Next you said..."Indeed this verse surely does cover such people. However, this does not mean its applicability is LIMITED to them, as verse 919 clarifies
Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah and Allah guides not those who do wrong. See? Giving drinks to thirsty pilgrims - clearly a good deed - does not save a Kafir from being regarded as a "wrongDOER" in Allah's eyes. Do you deny that the greatest "wrong" in the sight of Allah is denying his signs?"This verse talks about those who commit shirk and disbelieve in Allah and the Last Day (see 917 where it says "idolators". We are not discussing shirk.
Are you claiming that disbelief alone does not qualify a person as a "wrongDOER" in Allah's eyes despite numerous Qur'an verses clearly stating otherwise? EG
Who DOES MORE WRONG than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His signs? But the WRONGDOERS never shall prosper. (621)
Now show me where in the Qur'an this verse and others like it is qualified by a statement like "except those dibelievers in Muhammad's prophethood who otherwise live a good life, give to charity, are kind to their parents, avoid alcohol etc etc"
We are looking at cases involving Jews, Christians, Sabians, those who believe in Allah and the last day and do good; do not include those Muslims, people of the book or others who live in a state of shirk
I have no argument with this. If you commit shirk you go to hell. Where we part company is your contention that someone can DISBELIEVE in the divine origin of the Qur'an/prophethood of Muhammad and still avoid the hellfire on the basis of "good deeds" alone.
Next...
"That is right. A "good" Jew - like a "good" Christian - is according to the Qur'an one who accepts the prophethood of Muhammad
They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate.They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good works They are in the ranks of the righteous.Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knows well those that do right. (3.113-115)"I looked at nearly 10 translations and I could not find the portion in parentheses. You didn't happen to add it did you?
The square brackets clearly indicate that I did.
Please do not assume your conclusion....
I do not "assume" it. It is the only plausible conclusion that can be drawn from a thorough study of the Qur'an and cross referencing of its verses.
prove it
"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah...." (4829)
Do you or do you not accept that someone who rejects the truth of this Qur'anic statement is a denier of the word of Allah/prophethood of Muhammad/Divine orgin of al-Qur'an and this therefore a Kafir?
Next...
"So you are saying that in order to qualify as a Kafir a person must both- "reject faith"
AND - "take signs and messengers by way of jest"
?
Suppose they are just guilty of (1). Does that mean Allah will not regard them as a Kafir and treat them gently on judgement day?"
No, I am saying that there is not an explicit contradiction between saying that someone who disbelieves in Allah, and the last day and takes his signs and messengers by way of jest will go to hell and saying that someone who believes in allah, the last day, and does good will go to heaven.
No there isn't. However, your contention is that someone can deny the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of Qur'an and still be regarded as a paradise-bound "believer in Allah and the last day" rather than a hell-bound Kafir - which is clearly illogical nonsense which you continue to peddle below
Those who believe in God, the last day and do good will go to heaven regardless of what their professions (remember, words are cheap) concerning the Quran or the Prophet are.
What do you mean "words are cheap" when Allah says thing like
Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, UTTERS Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. (16106)
Shall we conclude from this that someone who has never "accepted faith" will NOT suffer a "dreadful penalty" if they utter unbelief? Eh?
Finally you say...
"Yes it is being a "bad person" as Allah defines a "bad person"
Those who reject among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein . They are the WORST of creatures.(987)"Our difference is I believe that rejection is not mere profession and you do.
I have never argued that someone will be regarded as a "believer" in the sight of Allah on the basis of profession of belief alone. My contention is with your deluded insistence that someone who rejects the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of the Qur'an may be spared the hell fire on the basis of deeds alone.
Also, I would just like to ask you, do you believe in abrogation?
I think it is the only plausible way of explaining away certain apparent contradictions in the Qur'an.
If not, do you believe that the verse 929 implores fighting those of the people of the book only in self defense situations since other verses concerning war in the quran prohibit fighting in any other situation?
No. Because the Qur'an does not so prohibit.
- "reject faith"
-
The above perception is in total conflict with what has been said in the Verse.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29.gif
You people confront war, with those who do not believe in Allah, and nor believe in the Last Day;
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29a.gif
and nor they make that unlawful what Allah and His Messenger has declared unlawful
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29b.gif
and nor they acknowledge the Prescribed Truthful Code from those who were given the Book,
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29c.gif
until they pay the protection charges/tax compliantly while they are subdued/defeated.Please carefully see the conjunctions, one group is being defined with whom war is to be confrontedm not Jews and Christians.
Who would you say "those who were given the book" refers to?
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This is a nonsense question
How can you "interpret" "Kafirs will burn in hell" - incessantly reiterated throughout the Koran as anything but what is says except with a great deal of wishful thinking?
"My" definition of "Kafir" is the Qur'an's definition ie someone who in words or conduct explicitly or implicitly denies the divine origin of the Qur'an/prophethood of Muhammad - which are two sides of the same coin.
Are you claiming that disbelief alone does not qualify a person as a "wrongDOER" in Allah's eyes despite numerous Qur'an verses clearly stating otherwise? EG
Who DOES MORE WRONG than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His signs? But the WRONGDOERS never shall prosper. (621)
Now show me where in the Qur'an this verse and others like it is qualified by a statement like "except those dibelievers in Muhammad's prophethood who otherwise live a good life, give to charity, are kind to their parents, avoid alcohol etc etc"
I have no argument with this. If you commit shirk you go to hell. Where we part company is your contention that someone can DISBELIEVE in the divine origin of the Qur'an/prophethood of Muhammad and still avoid the hellfire on the basis of "good deeds" alone.
The square brackets clearly indicate that I did.
I do not "assume" it. It is the only plausible conclusion that can be drawn from a thorough study of the Qur'an and cross referencing of its verses.
"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah...." (4829)
Do you or do you not accept that someone who rejects the truth of this Qur'anic statement is a denier of the word of Allah/prophethood of Muhammad/Divine orgin of al-Qur'an and this therefore a Kafir?
No there isn't. However, your contention is that someone can deny the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of Qur'an and still be regarded as a paradise-bound "believer in Allah and the last day" rather than a hell-bound Kafir - which is clearly illogical nonsense which you continue to peddle below
What do you mean "words are cheap" when Allah says thing like
Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, UTTERS Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. (16106)
Shall we conclude from this that someone who has never "accepted faith" will NOT suffer a "dreadful penalty" if they utter unbelief? Eh?
I have never argued that someone will be regarded as a "believer" in the sight of Allah on the basis of profession of belief alone. My contention is with your deluded insistence that someone who rejects the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of the Qur'an may be spared the hell fire on the basis of deeds alone.
I think it is the only plausible way of explaining away certain apparent contradictions in the Qur'an.
No. Because the Qur'an does not so prohibit.
Peace,
Most of your responses are the same and as such, my responses are contained in my previous posts. The only new thing you added was this verse
Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, UTTERS Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty (16106)
Yusuf Ali is the only translator I found who included the word "UTTERS." Every one else says "disbelieve." In fact, the best literal translation I found is
Who disbelieved with God after his faith/believing , except who was compelled/forced, and his heart/mind (is) assured/tranquillised/secured with the faith/belief, and but who delighted/expanded his chest (innermost) to the disbelief, so on them anger from God and for them (is) a great torture.
Good debating with you.
Peace -
Who disbelieved with God after his faith/believing , except who was compelled/forced, and his heart/mind (is) assured/tranquillised/secured with the faith/belief, and but who delighted/expanded his chest (innermost) to the disbelief, so on them anger from God and for them (is) a great torture.
Just pointing out that disbelieving in God or belief in him cannot be forced/compelled in people's hearts. You may make an outwardly show of such in case of extreme circumstances like the relaxation of food prohibitions but how can you force or compel belief/unbelief in God when he is the one that guides etc?I believe DH is saying how can those who've never accepted faith not suffer a dreadful penalty if they utter unbelief if those that believe and then not believe will. I think the answer has been discussed here in various threads before (if you would search) on the nature/progression etc of such unbelief and what is actually required to earn this penalty. It's not as simple as someone saying "In your face God, I can make it on my own" or "God, you suck 'cause I have acne/my pet lizard kicked the bucket". Peace.
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That's right. Jews, Nazarenes and Sabians WHO ACCEPT MUHAMMAD AS THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH will not burn in hell forever
Wouldn't you think that those people who accept Muhammad (saw) as the messenger of Allah as 'Muslims' then? They wouldn't be Jews, Nazarenes, or Sabians at that point...
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Wouldn't you think that those people who accept Muhammad (saw) as the messenger of Allah as 'Muslims' then? They wouldn't be Jews, Nazarenes, or Sabians at that point...
That's right. According to the Qur'an "true" Jews/christians/ etc would ALREADY be Muslims. As such they would necessarily recognise Muhammad as the final messenger of Allah, believe in the revelation that was sent down to him and obey its commandments without question.
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Most of your responses are the same and as such, my responses are contained in my previous posts. The only new thing you added was this verse
You have not answered my question as to whether or not you accept that those who deny the Qur'anic statement "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah...." are Kafirs. Do you or not?
Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, UTTERS Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty (16106)
Yusuf Ali is the only translator I found who included the word "UTTERS." Every one else says "disbelieve." In fact, the best literal translation I found isWho disbelieved with God after his faith/believing , except who was compelled/forced, and his heart/mind (is) assured/tranquillised/secured with the faith/belief, and but who delighted/expanded his chest (innermost) to the disbelief, so on them anger from God and for them (is) a great torture.
You're right. I should have checked it out more thoroughly to avoid the usual "Qur'an-alone" Muslim hairsplitting over the accuracy of translations. Here is a more watertight example
They swear by Allah that they said nothing , yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender. And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth. (974)
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Just pointing out that disbelieving in God or belief in him cannot be forced/compelled in people's hearts. You may make an outwardly show of such in case of extreme circumstances like the relaxation of food prohibitions but how can you force or compel belief/unbelief in God when he is the one that guides etc?
I believe DH is saying how can those who've never accepted faith not suffer a dreadful penalty if they utter unbelief if those that believe and then not believe will. I think the answer has been discussed here in various threads before (if you would search) on the nature/progression etc of such unbelief and what is actually required to earn this penalty. It's not as simple as someone saying "In your face God, I can make it on my own" or "God, you suck 'cause I have acne/my pet lizard kicked the bucket". Peace.
Peace,
Concerning the relevant verse, you are working from the assumption as is Yusuf Ali that "disbelieve" is mere utterance. I have argued in my previous posts that this is not the case and even you seem to later show an action based example for disbelief when you say people may be "compelled to relax food prescriptions" or steal or something. The verse also seems to indicate that true belief is a matter of the heart. Small and compelled actions and cheap words like "I believe" are not enough to be considered a believer (remember how I said actions are probably enough to be considered a submitter).Also, this verse is irrelevant to the debate we are having as long as it is not proven that Jews, Nazarenes, Sabians, and others who at least believe in God, the Last Day, and do Good could be actually disbelieving by denying the Quran or the Prophet. That is what DH is trying to say but this verse refers to disbelievers and I have argued that those who believe in God, the Last Day, and do Good do not disbelieve, whereas he as argued that if they deny the Quran and the prophet, they become disbelievers.
Also, DH brought up this new verse,
PICKTHAL They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah). And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth.Notice how uttering the word of disbelief is not to stand on its own in this verse as disbelief. In fact, right after it says "they did say the word of disbelief," it says "and did disbelieve after their Surrender." It has to be told that not only did they utter disbelief, they actually disbelieved as well. If say the "the word of disbelief" is synonymous with "disbelieve," there would be no need for the repetition as Allah could just say "did say the word of disbelief after their Surrender." Thus, uttering the words of disbelief are not referred to as equating with disbelief. Sure its wrong but it did not constitute disbelief in and of itself. If the nomads can not simply say "we believe" in order to become believers, the power of words are shown to be cheap.
Further, this verse is irrelevant to the greater debate as to whether non muslims will get into jannah. This does not prove that Jews, Christians, Sabians, those who believe in God, the Last Day and do Good are disbelievers.
Next you say...
"You have not answered my question as to whether or not you accept that those who deny the Qur'anic statement "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah...." are Kafirs. Do you or not?"I have said that they are not Kafirs. I feel I have made that pretty clear in all my previous statements. Take a look at those for my responses.
Peace
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Peace,
this verse is irrelevant to the debate we are having
Yes. -
That is what DH is trying to say but this verse refers to disbelievers and I have argued that those who believe in God, the Last Day....
To belong to which category necessarily involves believing in the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of Qur'an
whereas he as argued that if they deny the Quran and the prophet, they become disbelievers.
Which the verse on the "Desert Arabs" you brought up certainly does nothing to refute
The desert Arabs say We believe. Say You believe NOT, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Also, DH brought up this new verse,
PICKTHAL They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah). And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth.Notice how uttering the word of disbelief is not to stand on its own in this verse as disbelief. In fact, right after it says "they did say the word of disbelief," it says "and did disbelieve after their Surrender." It has to be told that not only did they utter disbelief, they actually disbelieved as well. If say the "the word of disbelief" is synonymous with "disbelieve," there would be no need for the repetition as Allah could just say "did say the word of disbelief after their Surrender." Thus, uttering the words of disbelief are not referred to as equating with disbelief. Sure its wrong but it did not constitute disbelief in and of itself. If the nomads can not simply say "we believe" in order to become believers, the power of words are shown to be cheap.
You are tying yourself in knots! Why would anybody "utter the word of disbelief" unless they were disbelievers - particularly when the verse you brought concerning the desert Arabs PROHIBITS people from saying "we believe" when they do NOT believe? People who say "We believe" when they do not are known as "hypocrites" in the Qur'an among which group are counted the desert Arabs. Do you deny that hypocrites will, without exception, burn in hell?
Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.
ditto above.
"You have not answered my question as to whether or not you accept that those who deny the Qur'anic statement "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah...." are Kafirs. Do you or not?"
I have said that they are not Kafirs.
Then you are denying the word of Allah, which makes you a kafir trying to bend the clear words of Allah to your own desires.
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You are tying yourself in knots! Why would anybody "utter the word of disbelief" unless they were disbelievers - particularly when the verse you brought concerning the desert Arabs PROHIBITS people from saying "we believe" when they do NOT believe? People who say "We believe" when they do not are known as "hypocrites" in the Qur'an among which group are counted the desert Arabs. Do you deny that hypocrites will, without exception, burn in hell?
Peace
Again this is not pertinent to if non muslims will get in to jannah but...
IF you go by my definition of disbelief being action based, which you have not successfully countered, than any number of reasons can be conjured for someone uttering the words of disbelieve when they are not disbelievers. But a rhetorical question that appeals to ridicule does not constitute a successful contention about my general point though. Prove to me that it is impossible for someone to utter disbelief and still believe or submit. Clearly the verse you brought to me separates that act of disbelieving and uttering disbelief so that ones on my side.
Also, concerning the Desert Arab verse...
I'm sorry, does that mean that those Desert Arabs were hypocrites when they said "we believe?" Nowhere in that verse does it mention the desert arabs being hypocrites. Even when they incorrectly call themselves believers, the clarification the Quran makes is that they are still submitters. Hypocrites is no where to be found in the verse.
Further, the verse does not prohibit anything. It just implores the Prophet to tell the desert Arabs that they should say "we submit." IT doesn't say, you can't say "we believe" because it is haraam or you are destined for hell because of this, etc. Instead it says you are incorrect in calling yourself "believers" so you should say "We submit" instead. That isn't much of a prohibition.
Also, notice how it tells the prophet to say XYZ. Since the Quran is written from God's perspective, if a prohibition was being written, I would expect it to say something like, "we (God) prohibit xyz" and the prophet like everyone else would follow God's laws. That's not the case in this verse.I do not deny that hypocrites will go to hell or kafirs, etc. Our definitions are different though. Why is this so hard for you to figure out?
Peace
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IF you go by my definition of disbelief being action based,
IE which is someone can be validly regarded as a believer by action alone even if they deny the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of al-Qur'an
which you have not successfully countered,
If one determinedly ignores all the evidence countering your assertions that I have provided....
than any number of reasons can be conjured for someone uttering the words of disbelieve when they are not disbelievers.
I can only think of one ie people utter the word of disbelief under compulsion/because they feel that being open about their Islamic loyalties may put them or the position of Islam in a particular area of the world in jeopardy. Provide some other scenarios where a devout believer might utter words of kufr
Prove to me that it is impossible for someone to utter disbelief and still believe or submit.
It is possible for someone to superficially "submit" to Islam without belief - as the verse about the desert Arabs suggests. However, there is zero evidence in the Qur'an that people who outwardly adopt Islamic rituals and norms without belief in the prophethood of Muhammad will go anywhere but hell. The Qur'anic evidence is 100% against it eg
And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, IN THE REVELATION TO YOU, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account. (3.199)
See? Allah the "People of the Book" who will avoid hell are those who accept the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of Qur'an. Those who do not will go to hell. How much clearer can you get?
Clearly the verse you brought to me separates that act of disbelieving and uttering disbelief so that ones on my side.
To someone who is intent on bending the evidence to fit their personal preferences..
Also, concerning the Desert Arab verse...
I'm sorry, does that mean that those Desert Arabs were hypocrites when they said "we believe?"Taking into consideration the other Qur'anic verses regarding the hypocrites, yes.
Nowhere in that verse does it mention the desert arabs being hypocrites. Even when they incorrectly call themselves believers, the clarification the Quran makes is that they are still submitters.
But you cannot logically deduce from this that they will not burn in hell if they do not fulfill Allah's expectation that they will become BELIEVERS.
Further, the verse does not prohibit anything. It just implores the Prophet to tell the desert Arabs that they should say "we submit." IT doesn't say, you can't say "we believe" because it is haraam or you are destined for hell because of this, etc.
Allah is issuing an order NOT to say "we believe" when one does not. Disobeying any commandment of Allah and his messenger is an act of kufr the reward for which is hell. Do you deny this?
Instead it says you are incorrect in calling yourself "believers" so you should say "We submit" instead. That isn't much of a prohibition.
Allah is clearly stating "DON'T call yourselves believers". That is obviously a prohibition rather than a casual suggestion.
Also, notice how it tells the prophet to say XYZ.
Where does it do that?
I do not deny that hypocrites will go to hell or kafirs, etc. Our definitions are different though. Why is this so hard for you to figure out?
If you were compiling a dictionary of Islamic terminology how would you define the words "Kafir" and "Munafiq"?
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Peace
First you say...
"IE which is someone can be validly regarded as a believer by action alone even if they deny the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of al-Qur'an"Wrong...By action, I said you could be a submitter. Key difference. This is a problem we are having in this debate. You are not understanding my terms and argument.
Next...
"If one determinedly ignores all the evidence countering your assertions that I have provided...."Not an argument...
Next...
I can only think of one ie people utter the word of disbelief under compulsion/because they feel that being open about their Islamic loyalties may put them or the position of Islam in a particular area of the world in jeopardy. Provide some other scenarios where a devout believer might utter words of kufrAgain, you mischaracterize my position. I have not said that they can still be considered a devout believer and if it sounds like I have, I am sorry and that's not what I believe. Instead, I believe that the the verse of the nomads shows us that words are cheap and thus those who utter disbelief can still be submitters if they obey the laws of Allah and his Messenger. Please see my previous posts for a more comprehensive explanation.
Next...
It is possible for someone to superficially "submit" to Islam without belief - as the verse about the desert Arabs suggests. However, there is zero evidence in the Qur'an that people who outwardly adopt Islamic rituals and norms without belief in the prophethood of Muhammad will go anywhere but hell.Wrong...The verse exhibits that belief can be supericial, not superficial "submission." If you can not properly explicate the verse, it is no wonder you can not follow my argument.
The Qur'anic evidence is 100% against it eg
And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, IN THE REVELATION TO YOU, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account. (3.199)
See? Allah the "People of the Book" who will avoid hell are those who accept the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of Qur'an.
Those who do not will go to hell. How much clearer can you get?This verse is not limiting. It does not say these are the only people of the book that will go to heaven. In fact, God says those who believe in God, the Last Day, and do Good will have nothing to fear, which does not contradict this verse at all and opens up more at least conditions for heaven. How much clearer can it get?
Next...
To someone who is intent on bending the evidence to fit their personal preferences..Funny...I offer my interpretation of a verse and you offer me this zero argument insult based response. Sort of how this whole debate has been going.
Next...
Taking into consideration the other Qur'anic verses regarding the hypocrites, yes.The verse clearly says they should call themselves submitters, not hypocrites. Do you think submitters and hypocrites are the same thing?
Next...
Allah is issuing an order NOT to say "we believe" when one does not. Disobeying any commandment of Allah and his messenger is an act of kufr the reward for which is hell. Do you deny this?Arguments please...I don't want to just hear "no he's not." The verse tells Muhammad to tell them to say they are submitters since they are not believers. I believe that is the message that is supposed to be taken from this verse. Belief is something that comes with a firmness in the heart, not something that just rolls off the tongue. If it was a command to tell the submitters to not call themselves believers, how come there are no retributive measures mentioned (as in you are going to go to hell if you don't) or any explicit mention that this is the law of God (or something similar) as there normally is when God issues a commandment?
Further, when the submitters are incorrectly calling themselves believers, it no where mentions that they are destined to hell. So, how can this be taken as a commandment?
Also, do these submitters who are not believers end up in hell? No way.
Finally, I would like to say that I disobey a commandment of Allah and his messenger every day. I constantly sin, etc. But, I also try (and often fail) to calm myself and do good and avoid disobeying Allah's laws. In fact, this previous characterization is how I perceive most of humanity (except for the bad apples) is. We do bad but we try to atone for the bad we have done and do good. Thus, when you say "disobeying any commandment of Allah and his messenger is an act of kufr and the reward of this is hell," I'll see you in hell because I am sure that you, like the rest of us have disobeyed one of God's commandements.Peace
Peace
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First you say...
"IE which is someone can be validly regarded as a believer by action alone even if they deny the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of al-Qur'an"
Wrong...By action, I said you could be a submitter. Key difference. This is a problem we are having in this debate. You are not understanding my terms and argument....I believe that the the verse of the nomads shows us that words are cheap and thus those who utter disbelief can still be submitters if they obey the laws of Allah and his Messenger.
Let us go back to the verse you brought on the desert Arabs
PICKTHAL The wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Now please clarify. Is it your contention that those who - like the desert Arabs mentioned - "submit" can still avoid hell on the basis of their deeds alone even though they do not BELIEVE and die in disbelief? Yes or No. Ah I see you have already answered this at the bottom of your post.
Next..."If one determinedly ignores all the evidence countering your assertions that I have provided...."
Not an argument...
One can't really argue against a non-argument
I can only think of one ie people utter the word of disbelief under compulsion/because they feel that being open about their Islamic loyalties may put them or the position of Islam in a particular area of the world in jeopardy. Provide some other scenarios where a devout believer might utter words of kufr
Again, you mischaracterize my position. I have not said that they can still be considered a devout believer..
Fine. I'll remember that.
Next...
It is possible for someone to superficially "submit" to Islam without belief - as the verse about the desert Arabs suggests. However, there is zero evidence in the Qur'an that people who outwardly adopt Islamic rituals and norms without belief in the prophethood of Muhammad will go anywhere but hell.Wrong...The verse exhibits that belief can be superficial, not superficial "submission."
Surely BELIEVING in the Qur'an as the divine word is a component of SUBMITTING to the will of Allah expressed therein. If one to all intents and purposes BEHAVES like a good Muslim (submitter) yet does not believe then ones "submission" is indeed superficial.
And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, IN THE REVELATION TO YOU, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account. (3.199)
See? Allah the "People of the Book" who will avoid hell are those who accept the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of Qur'an.
Those who do not will go to hell. How much clearer can you get?This verse is not limiting. It does not say these are the only people of the book that will go to heaven. In fact, God says those who believe in God, the Last Day, and do Good will have nothing to fear, which does not contradict this verse at all and opens up more at least conditions for heaven. How much clearer can it get?
The Qur'an is absolutely clear that if a person denies ANY of the signs of Allah and ANY of his prophets they are a Kafir who will go to hell. Furthermore there is also the verse
"Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own - in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." (007.157)
Now please try and argue that the "unlettered prophet" is not Muhammad and that the above does not amount to a command to the people of the Torah (Jews) and People of the Gospel (Christians) to believe in Muhamad as the final messenger of Allah AND follow the Qur'an - a command which if disobeyed will be punished with hell fire.
The verse clearly says they should call themselves submitters, not hypocrites. Do you think submitters and hypocrites are the same thing?
A person who displays the outward signs of being a good Muslim whilst disbelieving in their heart is clearly a hypocrite according to the Qur'an. With respect to the desert Arabs this is corroborated by
The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise. (997)
Next...
Allah is issuing an order NOT to say "we believe" when one does not. Disobeying any commandment of Allah and his messenger is an act of kufr the reward for which is hell. Do you deny this?Arguments please...I don't want to just hear "no he's not." The verse tells Muhammad to tell them to say they are submitters
Where does the verse tell "Muhammad" to say this? You are a stickler for whether bracketed words appear in the original Arabic
I believe? Is this so in this case?since they are not believers. I believe that is the message that is supposed to be taken from this verse.
Belief is something that comes with a firmness in the heart, not something that just rolls off the tongue.
True
If it was a command to tell the submitters to not call themselves believers, how come there are no retributive measures mentioned (as in you are going to go to hell if you don't) or any explicit mention that this is the law of God (or something similar) as there normally is when God issues a commandment?
There are many verses in the Qur'an that command the people to "obey Allah and his messenger" and promise punishment for failure to do so. Omission in one verse cannot seriously be regarded as an exemption from this.
Further, when the submitters are incorrectly calling themselves believers, it no where mentions that they are destined to hell. So, how can this be taken as a commandment?
Also, do these submitters who are not believers end up in hell? No way.
Even though you can provide no positive statement that they are exempted from the numerous Qur'anic verses that clearly state that disbelievers will go to hell. Wishful thinking is no substitute for evidence. You may not like the idea that someone who otherwise lives an exemplary and humane life is going to hell just for disbelieving in the prophethood of Muhammad. Islam is what it is I am afraid. As Allah says
"It matters not whether you like a thing....Allah knows you know not"
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Peace,
First...
Now please clarify. Is it your contention that those who - like the desert Arabs mentioned - "submit" can still avoid hell on the basis of their deeds alone even though they do not BELIEVE and die in disbelief? Yes or No. Ah I see you have already answered this at the bottom of your post.You are on the right track except for when you say the desert Arabs die in a state of disbelief. They die in a state of submission. They do not disbelieve in God, they just don't have the firmness in their heart that a believer does. I do believe though that these submitters who don't believe can be saved.
Next you say...
Surely BELIEVING in the Qur'an as the divine word is a component of SUBMITTING to the will of Allah expressed therein. If one to all intents and purposes BEHAVES like a good Muslim (submitter) yet does not believe then ones "submission" is indeed superficial.Belief is clearly not a necessary condition though since the desert Arabs clearly don't believe but still submit.
Peace