Non-muslims in Jannah?
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Assalamu Alaykum
This is about non-muslims entering Jannah
What about this
O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray (Yusuf Ali)
If someone is a Jew or Christian doesnt it mean they are rejecting Muhammad(Peace be upon him) and therefore rejecting a messenger? And what about rejecting the Quran?
Salam
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peace
I believe those verses are pretty clear about the issue.
Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.
(262)There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in God, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower.
(2256)And the Jews say, 'the Christians do not stand on anything;' and the Christians say, 'the Jews do not stand on anything;' and they recite the Book (of God). Even so, like their saying, say those who have no knowledge. Now God shall decide between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they differed.
(2113) -
peace
I believe those verses are pretty clear about the issue.
Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.
(262)There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in God, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower.
(2256)And the Jews say, 'the Christians do not stand on anything;' and the Christians say, 'the Jews do not stand on anything;' and they recite the Book (of God). Even so, like their saying, say those who have no knowledge. Now God shall decide between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they differed.
(2113)Yes but what about rejecting a messenger and a book?
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I believe those verses are pretty clear about the issue.
Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.
(262)That's right. Jews, Nazarenes and Sabians WHO ACCEPT MUHAMMAD AS THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH will not burn in hell forever
(7.157-15
Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good and prohibits them from what is bad He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,-it is THEY who will prosper.
Say "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth there is no god but He it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words follow him that (so) ye may be guided."Those who refuse to follow "The unlettered prophet" Muhammad - which necessarily entails discarding such beliefs as the trinity and crucifixion of Jesus - will of course suffer the eternal punishment designated for Kafirs.
And furthermore sura 929 orders the true believers to wage war against the Kafir Jews and Christians until they pay jizya.
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Salaam,
First of all, I would like to acknowledge that I am not God and that what I say about God's decisions here is at best speculative.So we have seen the multiple and clear verses that assert Christians, Jew, etc can also go to Jannah.
The question becomes of this verse.
O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray (Yusuf Ali)What would be denying the messenger and the book? Well, I believe that Prophet Muhammad's (S.A.W) only mission was to deliver the message (i.e. the Quran). Thus denying the messenger would be denying the Quran. Then the question becomes, what is denying the Quran? Is it just saying something like I don't believe in the Quran? Well I don't think so since it is hypothetically possible that someone could say something like that and still follow Quranic laws better than someone who says he believes in the Quran. Belief and denial are more than words.
Instead, I propose that "believing in the Quran" is following its laws. So someone who says I believe in the Quran could be denying it because he consistently goes against its laws. Further, someone who says "I don't believe in the Quran" could actually believe in the Quran because he follows its laws.
With this framework, it becomes easier to see how those who "deny the books" have "strayed" (notice how it does not say specificially they will go to hell, I feel this is a sign that we only speculare and that judgement is only for God). They do not follow the natural laws that the Quran propounds and that any just society would follow such as
Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for youYou shall not set up idols besides Him.
You shall honor your parents.
You shall not kill your unborn children from fear of poverty-We provide for you and for them.
You shall not commit gross sins, publicly or privately.
You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand.
You shall not touch the orphans' money except in the most righteous manner, until they reach maturity.
You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably. We do not burden any soul beyond its means.
You shall be absolutely just when you bear witness, even against your relatives.
You shall fulfill your oaths to GOD. These are His commandments to you, that you may take heed. (6151-152)
In all honesty, the idea of a hell is already hard enough for me to bear. That God would throw good Quranic law abiding people in there for uttering words like "I deny the Quran" would really push me over the edge.
Peace
O crap, there is another thread about this. Sorry
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First of all let's get some basic straight
- ISLAM is not equal to AHLU SUNNAH / SUNNI / SHIITES / SUFI sects or religion.
- MUSLIMS is not equal to those who are member of AHLU SUNNAH / SUNNI / SHIITES / SUFI sects or religion
- Christianity and Judaism is a sect / religion, belonging within the same domain as Sunni / Shiites / Sufi etc, which also a sect or religion.
QURAN is VERY SECULAR a.k.a NON-SECTARIAN.
There are clear mentions that God doesn't care about sect or religion, and every one will be judged fairly by God according to their deeds / doings.
And the same point was being repeated 3 times in the Quran.. perhaps emphasizing that this is VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE.(262) Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
(569) Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in God and the last day and does good -- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.
(2217) Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who Shirk (Arabic Asyraku) -- surely God will decide (comment God will decide, and not you, me or anyone else) between them on the day of resurrection; surely God is a witness over all things.
Salam / Peace
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What would be denying the messenger and the book? Well, I believe that Prophet Muhammad's (S.A.W) only mission was to deliver the message (i.e. the Quran). Thus denying the messenger would be denying the Quran. Then the question becomes, what is denying the Quran?
Well you have just given one example in your preceding sentence ie denying the messenger. Indeed, denying ANY verse of the Quran is likewise denying the Quran. As is claiming you can pick and choose which verses you follow according to your personal likes or dislikes
Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not. (2216)
So someone who says I believe in the Quran could be denying it because he consistently goes against its laws.
Indeed such people are referred to in the Quran
2.008-10
Of the people there are some who say "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not believe.
Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise not!
In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false.Note also that SELF deception is also a sin according to the above. Self deception would include twisting the clear meaning of ayats to suit your likes or dislikes.
Further, someone who says "I don't believe in the Quran" could actually believe in the Quran because he follows its laws.
why would someone do that?
With this framework, it becomes easier to see how those who "deny the books" have "strayed" (notice how it does not say specificially they will go to hell, I feel this is a sign that we only speculare and that judgement is only for God).
There are countless verses in the Qur'an which clearly state that those guilty of kufr will go to hell. This message is banged home page after page
Those who reject faith and deny our signs will be companions of Hell-fire. (510)
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Salaam everyone,
Definitely agree with Jafar on this one.
Onto Brother (or Sister?) DH's claims
You say...
"Well you have just given one example in your preceding sentence ie denying the messenger. Indeed, denying ANY verse of the Quran is likewise denying the Quran."I do not "deny the messenger" but for now lets leave this as there are plenty of debates in the archives and one going on right now that make it obvious what I think and what you think on the issue.
Still you seem to have avoided my definition by just restating the term to be defined. I have said that denying the Quran is actively opposing it by going contrary to to its laws. I feel that if you do exactly what the Quran tells you not to do (i.e. shirk, kill people, etc), than you are denying the quran. Actions and what is truly in people's hearts are key here, not just lip service. I think a vital verse on the issue is...PICKTHAL The wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Reading this verse has made me realize that I was not as clear as I should have been when I defined belief in my first response; in fact, the portion where I gave a definition of belief in the first post, I would like to retract. This is because this verse indicates that the world is not just split up into denial and belief. There is also submission. Belief seems to be something extra special, a firmness of the heart that you can't just say you have like the nomads in this verse. Submission on the other hand is obeying the laws set down by Allah and given to humanity through his messenger. Submission is a verb that is far less abstract than belief and there is not doubt that as I said before, submission requires action. I'm sure that you will with agree with this since the verse says "he will not withold from you aught of your deeds," which are equated with submission as opposed to the faith, which is equated with belief. This idea of submission further supports my definition of denying the Quran. It too must be action based. For example, since submission is action based, someone can say they are submitting yet be denying the quran as their actions are in conflict with the divine text. Further, someone can say they deny the quran yet still obey the laws of Allah given through his messenger to humanity. In each of these situations, I would contend that it is intuitive that the lip service is contrary to what is actually happening. The one who says he (or she) submits is actually denying the quran through sin and the one who says he (or she) does not follow the Quran is submitting to God's laws by giving charity, etc. Thus Quran denial is not just something you say, it is something you do by actively not submitting.
Then you say...
"As is claiming you can pick and choose which verses you follow according to your personal likes or dislikes"You are misunderstanding me if this is what you think I think.
Next you say...
"2.008-10
Of the people there are some who say "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not believe.
Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise not!
In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false.
Note also that SELF deception is also a sin according to the above. Self deception would include twisting the clear meaning of ayats to suit your likes or dislikes."I disagree when you say that in these verses, the "SELF deception" is the sin. I believe that the disbelief is the sin here. Also, I hope your not accusing me of trying to twist the meaning of ayats. Firstly, that does not support your argument in any way so its not important to our theocratic sparring session. You have to show me how I am twisting the meaning or engaging in self deception. You can't just say it. Secondly, though I have the basic biases and weaknesses of any human, I can tell you that I am trying my hardest not deceive myself or anyone else (just as I hope you or anyone else is). If I am wrong in assuming this is what you were saying, I'm sorry.
Also,
I said...
"Further, someone who says "I don't believe in the Quran" could actually be a submitter to the Quran because he follows its laws."
You said in response...
why would someone do that?Maybe because there parents raised them Jewish or something else. I changed my first quote to reflect my change of opinion concerning belief.
Finally you said...
"There are countless verses in the Qur'an which clearly state that those guilty of kufr will go to hell. This message is banged home page after page"This is not pertinent to our debate as I have not denied this nor has the verse we are talking about referred to this.
Peace
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I do not "deny the messenger"
I did not accuse you of doing so. I was merely answering your own question - "Then the question becomes, what is denying the Quran?" - with the preceding example you had already given ie "denying the messenger". Denying the messenger constitutes denying the Qur'an because the Qur'an states that Muhammad is the messenger.
I have said that denying the Quran is actively opposing it by going contrary to to its laws.
With which I agree.
I feel that if you do exactly what the Quran tells you not to do (i.e. shirk, kill people, etc), than you are denying the quran.
I agree with all that statement except the claim that killing people is doing the opposite of what the Qur'an says - which is not true. Therefore in this instance you ARE denying the Qur'an.
Actions and what is truly in people's hearts are key here, not just lip service.
That is right. Belief AND practice are crucial. A person who professes the former and wilfully neglects the latter is, according to the Qur'an, a hypocrite ie a "Muslim" in name only. Likewise a person who does not accept the Quran as the divine word cannot be anything but a kafir even if they live their lives according to your list above.
The wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Reading this verse has made me realize that I was not as clear as I should have been when I defined belief in my first response....This is because this verse indicates that the world is not just split up into denial and belief. There is also submission.
A person can "submit" to Allah's commandments without belief. However they are still a disbeliever destined for hell. On the other hand someone who claims to be a believer and, for instance, knowingly consumes alcohol contrary to the words of Allah is a "Muslim" in name only.
Submission.....is obeying the laws set down by Allah and given to humanity through his messenger.
Agreed
submission requires action.
Agreed
I'm sure that you will with agree with this since the verse says "he will not withold from you aught of your deeds," which are equated with submission as opposed to the faith, which is equated with belief.
Are you claiming that "good deeds" without belief will save a person from the eternal punishment?
....since submission is action based, someone can say they are submitting yet be denying the quran as their actions are in conflict with the divine text.
Agreed
Further, someone can say they deny the quran yet still obey the laws of Allah given through his messenger to humanity.
People may do things for a variety of reasons which concur with certain Quranic injunctions. EG Someone, may eschew alcohol because they regard it as unhealthy. They may give charity out of sympathy for destitute people. However, this is NOT the same thing as "obeying the laws of Allah" because one accepts that the Qur'an is of divine origin. Are you suggesting that a tee total, alms-giving Roman Catholic who believes in the holy trinity will not go to hell for that belief alone?
The one who says he (or she) submits is actually denying the quran through sin
Agree
and the one who says he (or she) does not follow the Quran is submitting to God's laws by giving charity, etc.
disagree
Thus Quran denial is not just something you say, it is something you do by actively not submitting.
Agree. Although I do not agree that it logically follows from your contorted reasoning above.
I disagree when you say that in these verses, the "SELF deception" is the sin.
Surely, if someone deceives themselves that they are being good Muslims even though they, for instance, deny the ongoing applicability of flogging fornicators, they are engaging in what the Quran would consider a sin.
I believe that the disbelief is the sin here.
Agree
Also, I hope your not accusing me of trying to twist the meaning of ayats.
I wasn't. But I am not so sure now considering what you have written since.
Also,
I said...
"Further, someone who says "I don't believe in the Quran" could actually be a submitter to the Quran because he follows its laws."
You said in response...
why would someone do that?Maybe because there parents raised them Jewish or something else. I changed my first quote to reflect my change of opinion concerning belief.
Fine
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Salaam
Again, I am not God so this is only how I think he will judge, not how he will judge.
"I did not accuse you of doing so. I was merely answering your own question - "Then the question becomes, what is denying the Quran?" - with the preceding example you had already given ie "denying the messenger". Denying the messenger constitutes denying the Qur'an because the Qur'an states that Muhammad is the messenger."
The messenger's only duty was to deliver the message. He was a human like the rest of us. Lets leave this because there are plenty of debates on the issue.
"I agree with all that statement except the claim that killing people is doing the opposite of what the Qur'an says - which is not true. Therefore in this instance you ARE denying the Qur'an."
You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand. (6151)
The verse pretty clearly says don't kill ("you shall not kill" except in the course of justice and even killing in the course of justice is not a command as we are often encouraged to forgive (read relevant verses concerning law of equivalence). I am about to go on a rant about the difference in profession and action so be patient. Sidenote I love how easy it is for you to actually say to someone they are denying the Quran and thus going to hell. No uncertainty here."That is right. Belief AND practice are crucial. A person who professes the former and wilfully neglects the latter is, according to the Qur'an, a hypocrite ie a "Muslim" in name only. Likewise a person who does not accept the Quran as the divine word cannot be anything but a kafir even if they live their lives according to your list above."
You are missing the point. Belief is not that simple that you can just "profess it," to use your lingo, as the nomads have. Rather obeying the laws of Allah are the important thing here. We can only pray that Allah will give us "faith" so as to give us true "belief," not lip service.
"Are you claiming that "good deeds" without belief will save a person from the eternal punishment?"
That's what I'm getting at. The nomads in the verse that I stated before could not say they believed because "faith had not entered their hearts." They did not believe. Yet, they were not promised eternal hell fire as a result. The world is not split up into two groups of believers and deniers; denying the quran in my opinion is not that simple. Rather, the nomads were still told to submit as "He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds." Deeds is the key word here. You can work your way into heaven even though you may not believe. If professions are weak in determining if you believe or not, how can they be used then to determine if you deny the Quran or not? Rather, in the verse we are told that actions determine if you submit or not. Again, even though these nomads don't believe, there is NO promise of eternal torture here (I don't believe in eternal torture). Thus you can not believe and still avoid eternal punishment.
Also, Abraham could not believe in the Quran, the Gospel, Jesus, Muhammad, etc since they weren't around yet. He was still called a submitter and I venture to say that at least you believe he is in heaven."People may do things for a variety of reasons which concur with certain Quranic injunctions. EG Someone, may eschew alcohol because they regard it as unhealthy. They may give charity out of sympathy for destitute people. However, this is NOT the same thing as "obeying the laws of Allah" because one accepts that the Qur'an is of divine origin. Are you suggesting that a tee total, alms-giving Roman Catholic who believes in the holy trinity will not go to hell for that belief alone?"
I have not mentioned shirk yet so lets leave that out as well. Imagine a good Jew (no shirk).
When you say obeying the laws is NOT the same thing as "obeying the laws of Allah" because one accepts that the Qur'an is of divine origin," I agree. I assume by "accept" you mean believe the Quran is of divine origin as that is what we are discussing. But belief is not required for submission as we are told. Again, verse 4913 explicitly says that the nomads can not say they are believers because they are not. Lip service does not suffice for the faith that is required to become a true believer in God, the Angels, Scriptures, etc. Still, the nomads are not promised hell. They are told to obey Allah and the messenger (i.e. their laws) and that their deeds will still be rewarded. Thus you don't need to believe (have faith) in the divine origins of the Quran; it is something that you should pray for that God will strengthen your faith and make you a true believer. You can still follow the natural laws of the Quran though without having faith in its divine origins as the nomads have done.
Also, I am confused as I think you may be saying that God's laws are arbitrary as opposed to derived from his wholly rational and good nature. Doesn't God tell us to eschew alchohol and intoxicants because they cause us harm? Doesn't God tell us to give charity 'out of sympathy for destitute people?' Or did God just give us these rules randomly so he could see who would obey him, not see who is truly in line with his good nature? IF God was just giving these rules randomly, couldn't he tell you to do anything like commit genocide? Don't arbitrary laws destroy the notion of good and bad?"Surely, if someone deceives themselves that they are being good Muslims even though they, for instance, deny the ongoing applicability of flogging fornicators, they are engaging in what the Quran would consider a sin."
The deception has never been indicated as the sin. The denying of Allah, etc is the sin. If you don't know by now, I think actions are key and "professions" are useless.
"I wasn't. But I am not so sure now considering what you have written since."
Funny...
Peace
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Salaam
O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray (Yusuf Ali)
I forgot to add that it is not a contradiction to say the those who believe God, the last day and do Good will go to heaven while saying that "Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, had gone far, far astray." I mean when you deny all that stuff, sure you have gone super far astray but if you at least believe in God, the Last Day and do good, you have nothing to fear (see Jafar's post, 262).
Peace
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Salaam
O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray (Yusuf Ali)
I forgot to add that it is not a contradiction to say the those who believe in God, the last day and do Good will go to heaven while saying that "Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, had gone far, far astray." I mean when you deny all that stuff, sure you have gone super far astray but if you at least believe in God, the Last Day and do good, you have nothing to fear (see Jafar's post, 262). This is even if you do deny the books, apostles, etc in the sense that you define it.
Peace
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peace sot,
Background
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/muslim-or-hell.htmAnd furthermore sura 929 orders the true believers to wage war against the Kafir Jews and Christians until they pay jizya.
929 uses the partitive "min" (from/of/among). Thus, the obvious question becomes whom out of that group? The answer is within the context.
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Again, I am not God so this is only how I think he will judge, not how he will judge.
Allah is quite clear how he will judge people who explicitly or implicitly deny the messenger and therefore the divine origin of the Qur'an. He will burn them in hell forever. Playing semantic games with the clear words of Allah is a form of kufr.
The messenger's only duty was to deliver the message.
And the MESSAGE (Qur'an) that he delivered says that denying the messenger is an eternally burnable offense.
You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice.
That is in the course of what the Qur'an defines as justice. Not what the kuffar define as justice. Agree?
Sidenote I love how easy it is for you to actually say to someone they are denying the Quran and thus going to hell. No uncertainty here.
Of course it's easy to say that because that is what the Qur'an clearly states
To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle Such is Our reward for those in sin.Theirs will be a bed of hell, and over them coverings (of hell). Thus do We requite wrong-doers. (7 40-41)
You are missing the point. Belief is not that simple that you can just "profess it," to use your lingo, as the nomads have.
I understand the point perfectly. Saying "I believe" when your deeds speak otherwise does not qualify a person as a TRUE believer. This does not mean, as you seem to be claiming, that living in an "Islamic" way when you do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad DOES qualify a person as a "believer".
Rather obeying the laws of Allah are the important thing here.
However, this alone does NOT qualify someone as a believer who will be spared the eternal punishment.
"Are you claiming that "good deeds" without belief will save a person from the eternal punishment?"
That's what I'm getting at. The nomads in the verse that I stated before could not say they believed because "faith had not entered their hearts." They did not believe. Yet, they were not promised eternal hell fire as a result. denying the quran in my opinion is not that simple. Rather, the nomads were still told to submit as "He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds." Deeds is the key word here. You can work your way into heaven even though you may not believe.
Now you have to explain why your "interpretation" does not contradict verses like 18103-106
Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works? They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) VAIN will be their WORKS, NOR SHALL WE, ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT, GIVE THEM ANY WEIGHT. That is their reward, HELL, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
How much clearer than that can you get? If you implicitly or explicitly disbelieve in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of the Qur'an your deeds won't count for squat.
The world is not split up into two groups of believers and deniers
What????
(I don't believe in eternal torture).
Then you don't believe in the the Qur'an in which the eternal torture is repeatedly graphically described.
Also, Abraham could not believe in the Quran, the Gospel, Jesus, Muhammad, etc since they weren't around yet. He was still called a submitter and I venture to say that at least you believe he is in heaven.
Your reasoning is getting more and more convoluted.
I have not mentioned shirk yet so lets leave that out as well. Imagine a good Jew (no shirk).
Still a hell-bound Kafir if he doesn't accept the prophethood of Muhammad.
"Surely, if someone deceives themselves that they are being good Muslims even though they, for instance, deny the ongoing applicability of flogging fornicators, they are engaging in what the Quran would consider a sin."
The deception has never been indicated as the sin.
In the verse in question, Allah clearly means that those who deceive themselves into believing they are good Muslims when they are not will go to hell - however much you may wish to delude yourself otherwise.
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929 uses the partitive "min" (from/of/among). Thus, the obvious question becomes whom out of that group? The answer is within the context.
And the "context" is
(929) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as
believe not in Allah nor the Last Day,
and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger,
and follow not the Religion of Truth,
until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
Which encompasses everybody on earth who calls themselves a "Jew" or a "Christian".
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Salaam,
We are getting repetitive but,...
First, you said...
"Allah is quite clear how he will judge people who explicitly or implicitly deny the messenger and therefore the divine origin of the Qur'an. He will burn them in hell forever. Playing semantic games with the clear words of Allah is a form of kufr."Even if Allah is quite clear (we humans are weak and what should be clear, often isn't), would you be so cocky as to know how God will judge in every situation? Could you, considering you know all about how God will judge, take his job as judge for a little while? If not, then you should show some humility before you drop some Kufr bombs.
You also brought up this verse...
Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works? They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) VAIN will be their WORKS, NOR SHALL WE, ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT, GIVE THEM ANY WEIGHT. That is their reward, HELL, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest. 18103-106
How much clearer than that can you get? If you implicitly or explicitly disbelieve in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of the Qur'an your deeds won't count for squat."In this verse, those who think they are acquiring good are probably those who sin and concentrate on the material goods of the world thinking that their wealth is good (referenced many times in the quran). We are talking about a good Jew so denying Judgement is not an issue. Again, it is not an explicit or implicit contradiction to say that someone could deny the messenger and the Quran using your definition (which I dislike) and still get into heaven. This verse says they rejected Faith, and took MY Signs and My Messengers by way of jest. Other verses which we have gone over say that Jews, Christians, Sabians and all those who believe in God, the Last Day, and do Good will have nothing to fear. This latter verse can be seen as an at least statement. At least do this (believe in God, etc), and you will not have anything to fear and the former verse can be seen as a you did all of this bad stuff in conjunction, not just deny the Quran (using your definition of course). It doesn't explicity say that if you believe in God, judgement, and do good, that if you deny the quran, you will go to hell. It says, when you deny faith, and make a mockery of the messengers and signs, a bunch of stuff in conjunction, you will go to hell, which is different from the latter verse since elements of this verse where everything bad is done in conjunction, are not done.
Again though, I have gone over multiple times what I think denial is or taking "My signs and my messengers by way of jest" is. It is being a bad person. Mere profession is no means of denial but I've gone over this in practically all my last posts. I feel that you are not adequately addressing my definition.
Peace
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I forgot to add...
007.037
YUSUFALI Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Signs? For such, their portion appointed must reach them from the Book (of decrees) until, when our messengers (of death) arrive and take their souls, they say "Where are the things that ye used to invoke besides Allah?" They will reply, "They have left us in the lurch," And they will bear witness against themselves, that they had rejected Allah.The verse 740 you quoted where it says those who reject our signs is about those who reject Allah and shirk as the context shows. It is the same way "rejecting the signs of Allah" is used in the other verse you offered (18103-106). This is different from denying the Quran is of divine origin or that Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah. The verse refers to polytheists who reject the signs that Allah is one and were arrogant. We are talking about a Good Jew who believes in God, Judgement, and does good so that verse is irrelevant.
