Non-muslims in Jannah?

DH

I do believe though that these submitters who don't believe can be saved.

Where in the Qur'an is it stated or at least implied people that who superficially "submit" can still be saved if they don't get round to actually believing?

Belief is clearly not a necessary condition though since the desert Arabs clearly don't believe but still submit.

Clearly? Where in the Qur'an is this clearly stated?

BTW shall I take your silence on the matter as an acknowledgement that verse 7157 (quoted above) amounts to a command to the Jews and Christians to believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and obey the Qur'an?

you_gunna_eat_that

Where in the Qur'an is it stated or at least implied people that who superficially "submit" can still be saved if they don't get round to actually believing?

Clearly? Where in the Qur'an is this clearly stated?

BTW shall I take your silence on the matter as an acknowledgement that verse 7157 (quoted above) amounts to a command to the Jews and Christians to believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and obey the Qur'an?

Peace

First of all, who said anyone was superficially submitting? That was and is not my contention so you are attacking a straw man. I said submitters (Muslims) will go to heaven. It is clearly implied in the nomad verse that one can be a submitter without believing.

Also, concerning the verse I did not address...
YUSUFALI "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."
The conditions set out in this verse are not limiting. I do not see anywhere where it says only these people will get into heaven. I have more to say about the verse but I am a bit busy so forgive me.

Peace

DH

First of all, who said anyone was superficially submitting?

I did.

That was and is not my contention so you are attacking a straw man.

See above

I said submitters (Muslims) will go to heaven. It is clearly implied in the nomad verse that one can be a submitter without believing.

The question is, where is it clearly implied in that verse or elsewhere in the Qur'an that those who "submit" without belief will go anywhere but hell?

Also, concerning the verse I did not address...
YUSUFALI "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

The conditions set out in this verse are not limiting.

Says you without any justification whatsoever.

I do not see anywhere where it says only these people will get into heaven.

The following ayats amply demonstrate that this is indeed the case, however much you may wish otherwise

You are the best of the nations raised up for men; you

enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong

and

believe in Allah;

and if the peoples of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them are believers but most of them are transgressors.(3110)

004.047
O you People of the Book! believe in what We have revealed, confirming what was with you, before We change the face and fame of some beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. (447)

If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss. (565)

The Kafirs, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures. (986)

What can you bring from the Qur'an to counter the clear message of these verses that Jews,Christians or anybody else who disbelieves is going on a one-way trip to a very hot place - however much they superficially "submit"?

Leyna

What can you bring from the Qur'an to counter the clear message of these verses that Jews,Christians or anybody else who disbelieves is going on a one-way trip to a very hot place - however much they superficially "submit"?

See first page.

DH

See first page.

Well taking your own referenced verse

Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians,

whoever of them

believes in God and the Last Day and does good works;

they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve. (262)

which clearly supports my contention - further corroborated by other Qur'an verses - that belief as well as deeds is essential for Jews/Christians/Sabians to enter the garden of bliss as opposed to their being thrown into hell.

I have further argued, with ample Qur'anic references, that "belief" necessarily encompasses belief in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of al-Qur'an.

Don't you like the idea of a Christian mushrik like Mother Theresa who devoted her life to helping the poor being chucked into hell? That's the way it is according to the book of Allah I am afraid.

Leyna

Don't you like the idea of a Christian mushrik like Mother Theresa who devoted her life to helping the poor being chucked into hell? That's the way it is according to the book of Allah I am afraid.

It has nothing to do with not liking that idea, I simply don't believe it. If it makes you feel better and more superior to believe this, go ahead.

you_gunna_eat_that

Salaam,

First...
The question is, where is it clearly implied in that verse or elsewhere in the Qur'an that those who "submit" without belief will go anywhere but hell?

Well in the verse, it is said that these are submitters who do not believe. Further it says Allah will still reward them there deeds. If this is the case, then clearly they may avoid hell even though they do not believe since this is the only way a person's positive deeds could be rewarded.
Further, you have yet to bring positive evidence for your argument thatthose who submit but don't believe will go to hell.

Next you say...
Says you without any justification whatsoever.

Arguments please...

Next you say...
The following ayats amply demonstrate that this is indeed the case, however much you may wish otherwise
You are the best of the nations raised up for men; you

enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong
and
believe in Allah;
and if the peoples of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them are believers but most of them are transgressors.(3110)

004.047
O you People of the Book! believe in what We have revealed, confirming what was with you, before We change the face and fame of some beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. (447)

If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss. (565)

The Kafirs, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures. (986)

What can you bring from the Qur'an to counter the clear message of these verses that Jews,Christians or anybody else who disbelieves is going on a one-way trip to a very hot place - however much they superficially "submit"?

First of all, I think we should go one or two verses per post. This will add more depth to our analysis and it will help me respond to all you have to say.

Secondly, you are working from your definition of belief here, which i feel you lack ample warrant for. Since this is a definitional debate offer me your interpretations of verses and tell me why they are correct because we clearly interpre this verses differently.

Finally, I want to reexplain one of my points. None of these verses are limiting. This means that none of them say "only these" people will get into heaven. Thus, there is no explicit or implicit contradiction between these verses and those that say other groups of people not mentioned here will go to heaven.
Peace

you_gunna_eat_that

Well taking your own referenced verse

Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians,

whoever of them

believes in God and the Last Day and does good works;

they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve. (262)

which clearly supports my contention - further corroborated by other Qur'an verses - that belief as well as deeds is essential for Jews/Christians/Sabians to enter the garden of bliss as opposed to their being thrown into hell.

I have further argued, with ample Qur'anic references, that "belief" necessarily encompasses belief in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of al-Qur'an.

Don't you like the idea of a Christian mushrik like Mother Theresa who devoted her life to helping the poor being chucked into hell? That's the way it is according to the book of Allah I am afraid.

Peace again

First of all, what translation have you chosen for 262. I have never seen it translated as "from those" immediately before it describes others who may get in heaven such as those who believe in God, the last day and does good.
Also, I just want to drive the point home that this verse is not limiting. It never says only these folks will get in. Finally, this verse says nothing about believing in the prophet or the divine texts. Thus, non Muslims as we have defined them can go to heaven as indicated by this verse. This was the original debate.
Peace

DH

It has nothing to do with not liking that idea, I simply don't believe it.

So you don't believe Allah when he says in his book, the Qur'an, that people like mother Theresa who subscribe to such doctrines as the holy trinity and Jesus being the son of Allah are mushrik kafirs?

DH

Salaam,

First...
The question is, where is it clearly implied in that verse or elsewhere in the Qur'an that those who "submit" without belief will go anywhere but hell?

Well in the verse, it is said that these are submitters who do not believe. Further it says Allah will still reward them there deeds. If this is the case, then clearly they may avoid hell even though they do not believe since this is the only way a person's positive deeds could be rewarded.

The only way? Surely, Allah states that he rewards people in THIS world eg

And a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah the term is fixed; and whoever desires the reward of this world, I shall give him of it, and whoever desires the reward of the hereafter I shall give him of it, and I will reward the grateful. (3145)

So which is more plausible?

Allah may furnish Kafir "submitters" with worldly rewards for certain deeds yet still refuse them admission to paradise for their kufr
Allah may allow Kafir "submitters" into the garden despite numerous unambiguous statements throughout the Qur'an that he will burn disbelievers in hell for nothing more than their disbelief
????

Further, you have yet to bring positive evidence for your argument thatthose who submit but don't believe will go to hell.

What would constitute "positive evidence" in your eyes?

Next you say...
Says you without any justification whatsoever.

Arguments please...

It is up to you to provide arguments in support of your assertions otherwise the charge of "without justification" is utterly valid.

Next you say...
The following ayats amply demonstrate that this is indeed the case, however much you may wish otherwise
You are the best of the nations raised up for men; you

enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong
and
believe in Allah;
and if the peoples of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them are believers but most of them are transgressors.(3110)

004.047
O you People of the Book! believe in what We have revealed, confirming what was with you, before We change the face and fame of some beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. (447)

If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss. (565)

The Kafirs, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures. (986)

What can you bring from the Qur'an to counter the clear message of these verses that Jews,Christians or anybody else who disbelieves is going on a one-way trip to a very hot place - however much they superficially "submit"?

First of all, I think we should go one or two verses per post. This will add more depth to our analysis and it will help me respond to all you have to say.

Secondly, you are working from your definition of belief here, which i feel you lack ample warrant for.

What do you understand as being my definition of "belief"?

Finally, I want to reexplain one of my points. None of these verses are limiting. This means that none of them say "only these" people will get into heaven.

You have provided not one single verse which explicitly states that disbelievers who nevertheless "submit" WILL or even MAY go to heaven or Will NOT go to hell. This is because no such verse exists in the Qur'an. Therefore, other verses in the Qur'an must be referred to to find out which is the most plausible scenario. I have provided numerous Koranic quotes that clearly state "Kafirs will burn in hell". You have provided not ONE that explicitly states "Kafirs will/may not burn in hell if they fulfil certain conditions". The weight of the overall evidence is therefore 0% in your favor and 100% in mine.

Thus, there is no explicit or implicit contradiction between these verses and those that say other groups of people not mentioned here will go to heaven.
Peace

A flawed conclusion arrived at through flawed logic.

DH

First of all, what translation have you chosen for 262. I have never seen it translated as "from those" immediately before it describes others who may get in heaven such as those who believe in God, the last day and does good.

I merely copied and pasted the translation furnished by Leyna in her first post on this thread. If you have a problem with it take it up with her.

Also, I just want to drive the point home that this verse is not limiting. It never says only these folks will get in.

See my previous post regarding this "argument"

Thus, non Muslims as we have defined them can go to heaven as indicated by this verse. This was the original debate.

Sorry, remind me of how "we" have defined "non-Muslims"?

you_gunna_eat_that

Salaam,

First you say...
"The only way? Surely, Allah states that he rewards people in THIS world eg
And a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah the term is fixed; and whoever desires the reward of this world, I shall give him of it, and whoever desires the reward of the hereafter I shall give him of it, and I will reward the grateful. (3145)
So which is more plausible?

Allah may furnish Kafir "submitters" with worldly rewards for certain deeds yet still refuse them admission to paradise for their kufr
Allah may allow Kafir "submitters" into the garden despite numerous unambiguous statements throughout the Qur'an that he will burn disbelievers in hell for nothing more than their disbelief
????"

The verse 4914 itself does not say that the deeds will only be rewarded on this earth. I guess you can interpret it that way though; God will give these submitters rewards on earth for their good deeds but they will be burnt in hell when they die.
My question to God then would be what changed? These submitters who did not have the faith to call themselves believers could still be rewarded on earth even though they are about to be thrown in hell. Shouldn't the punishment have had its effect even in the worldly life since it is so bad that it warrants hellfire?

Next...
"What would constitute "positive evidence" in your eyes?"

Tell me why your definition of disbelief, which includes mere utterance is correct.

Next...
"What do you understand as being my definition of "belief"?"

The important part is that I think it includes merely uttering words of disbelief.

Next...
"You have provided not one single verse, which explicitly states that disbelievers who nevertheless "submit" WILL or even MAY go to heaven or Will NOT go to hell. This is because no such verse exists in the Qur'an. Therefore, other verses in the Qur'an must be referred to to find out which is the most plausible scenario. I have provided numerous Koranic quotes that clearly state "Kafirs will burn in hell". You have provided not ONE that explicitly states "Kafirs will/may not burn in hell if they fulfil certain conditions". The weight of the overall evidence is therefore 0% in your favor and 100% in mine."

Well thats probably because I never said kafirs who submit will go to heaven. Its shocking that at this stage you still can not get my argument right. I have said submitters will go to heaven and submitters do not have to believe as indicated by the verse 4913 we are discussing above. Just because they do not believe does not make them kafirs though. Maybe your confusion is you assume anyone who does not believe is a kafir and thus you quite nicely have showed me many verses saying kafirs are going to hell. Yet, consider that babies and many animals do not have beliefs. By the assumption that anyone who does not believe is a kafir, babies and animals are kafirs and babies who die before they grow cognitive faculties are destined to hell.

I believe there are other categories of people (i.e. submitters) who are not kafirs and who will not go to hell. But let me know what you think. Are babies who lack beliefs disbelievers on their way to hell?

Also, all those nice verses about kafirs you showed me, I have never denied one of them. Rather, our difference is in interpretation. I work from a different defintion of kafir. So, all this 'evidence' you have brought me has really amounted to nothing.

Finally you say...
A flawed conclusion arrived at through flawed logic.

Funny...

Peace

you_gunna_eat_that

So you don't believe Allah when he says in his book, the Qur'an, that people like mother Theresa who subscribe to such doctrines as the holy trinity and Jesus being the son of Allah are mushrik kafirs?

Peace

I don't know about Leyna but I just don't believe you...

DH

Never claimed it did. It establishes the principle that Allah rewards people in this world as well as the hereafter and therefore refutes your above statement Further it says Allah will still reward them there deeds. If this is the case, then clearly they may avoid hell even though they do not believe since this is the ONLY way a person's positive deeds could be rewarded.

I guess you can interpret it that way though; God will give these submitters rewards on earth for their good deeds but they will be burnt in hell when they die. My question to God then would be what changed? These submitters who did not have the faith to call themselves believers could still be rewarded on earth even though they are about to be thrown in hell. Shouldn't the punishment have had its effect even in the worldly life since it is so bad that it warrants hellfire?

In the verse about the desert Arabs Allah talks about belief having not YET entered into their hearts. So he is obviously allowing time for this to happen. In the meantime they may receive worldly rewards like a share of the booty taken from those with whom the Muslims are at war if they participate in campaigns. If the desert Arabs nevertheless persist in disbelief to the end of their days then there is absolutely no Qur'anic justification for your contention that they could go anywhere but hell.

Next...
"What would constitute "positive evidence" in your eyes?"

Tell me why your definition of disbelief, which includes mere utterance is correct.

I have already done so.

Next...
"What do you understand as being my definition of "belief"?"

The important part is that I think it includes merely uttering words of disbelief.

It does include that, and I have provided qur'anic reference to back this up. Want some more?

Next...
"You have provided not one single verse, which explicitly states that disbelievers who nevertheless "submit" WILL or even MAY go to heaven or Will NOT go to hell. This is because no such verse exists in the Qur'an. Therefore, other verses in the Qur'an must be referred to to find out which is the most plausible scenario. I have provided numerous Koranic quotes that clearly state "Kafirs will burn in hell". You have provided not ONE that explicitly states "Kafirs will/may not burn in hell if they fulfil certain conditions". The weight of the overall evidence is therefore 0% in your favor and 100% in mine."

Well thats probably because I never said kafirs who submit will go to heaven.

What exactly do you think constitutes a "Kafir" in the eyes of Allah?

Just because they do not believe does not make them kafirs though.

Provide some Qur'anic corroboration for this claim.

I believe there are other categories of people (i.e. submitters) who are not kafirs and who will not go to hell.

And an ambiguous statement in a single verse of the Qur'an is the only "evidence" you have provided to support this view.

But let me know what you think. Are babies who lack beliefs disbelievers on their way to hell?

I cannot think of any reason why such babies would not be so destined. Can you?

DH

Peace

I don't know about Leyna but I just don't believe you...

You don't believe that those who say things like "Jesus is the son of God" are mushrik kafirs then?

savage_carrot

Are babies who lack beliefs disbelievers on their way to hell?

I cannot think of any reason why such babies would not be so destined. Can you?

In order to disbelieve, you have to have the capacity to understand what not to believe in.

DH

In order to disbelieve, you have to have the capacity to understand what not to believe in.

Which babies don't generally have - unlike full-grown adults like the desert Arabs mentioned in verse 4914 who have, furthermore, been made aware of the messenger of Allah and the Qur'an and have disbelieved in it. Therefore YGET's attempt to equate "disbelief" with the "lack of belief" of babies is tendentious.

So why do you think Allah seemingly takes the lives of babies before they develop the capacity to understand what to believe in? Furthermore, why does he often inflict terrible pain and suffering on them before he does this?

savage_carrot

His attempt stemmed from his understanding that disbelievers are different from those who lack belief due to different reasons. Whether that involves lack of adequate development or someone born on an isolated island somewhere who has no idea of who the prophet or the quran is. They are not the same. There was no reason to ask if he could think of any reason why babies who lack the capacity to understand would not be so destined for hell when it's clear you need to be a "disbeliever" to earn that badge.

I have further argued, with ample Qur'anic references, that "belief" necessarily encompasses belief in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of al-Qur'an.
So according to you, the people who do not know of the "prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of al-Qur'an" let alone even what a book even is are all disbelievers destined for hell?

*edit to add

So why do you think Allah seemingly takes the lives of babies before they develop the capacity to understand what to believe in? Furthermore, why does he often inflict terrible pain and suffering on them before he does this?
What relevance does this have to the topic of disbelievers? Are you trying to equate the two, I hope not?

DH

His attempt stemmed from his understanding that disbelievers are different from those who lack belief due to different reasons.

YGEA, has been arguing that verse 4914 establishes a principle that people who do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and divine origin of Qur'an can nevertheless avoid hell if they "submit". Do you agree with this?

Whether that involves lack of adequate development

What do you mean by "lack of adequate development"?

So according to you, the people who do not know of the "prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of al-Qur'an" let alone even what a book even is are all disbelievers destined for hell?

Why otherwise would Allah bother to send messengers "as a mercy" to bring people back to belief in him alone? Why do that if he is willing to allow countless people who commit shirk and all sorts of sins in ignorance into the garden?

So why do you think Allah seemingly takes the lives of babies before they develop the capacity to understand what to believe in? Furthermore, why does he often inflict terrible pain and suffering on them before he does this?

What relevance does this have to the topic of disbelievers? Are you trying to equate the two, I hope not?

YGEA brought up the irrelevent subject of babies in order to bolster his "interpretation" of verse 4914 by leading me to concede "well if innocent babies who have never believed can avoid hell so can other people like the desert Arabs mentioned in verse 4914". It is obvious what he is up to. Even if newborn babies who have never believed DID avoid hell, it does not logically follow that adults who have committed all sorts of sins in the sight of Allah will do so. He brought up the subject of babies so I expanded on it by asking what I did with the intention of neutralizing his line of argument.

savage_carrot

YGEA, has been arguing that verse 4914 establishes a principle that people who do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and divine origin of Qur'an can nevertheless avoid hell if they "submit". Do you agree with this?
Difference between Al-Muslimeen and Al-Momineen
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13499.0
http//free-minds.org/node/10

What do you mean by "lack of adequate development"?
Babies, people with damaged, under developed faculties etc

Why otherwise would Allah bother to send messengers "as a mercy" to bring people back to belief in him alone? Why do that if he is willing to allow countless people who commit shirk and all sorts of sins in ignorance into the garden?
Why didn't you touch upon the subject of the isolated island guy who doesn't know of Mohammad or the quran? Is he a disbeliever if he does good works and even believes in one God?

YGEA brought up the irrelevent subject of babies in order to bolster his "interpretation" of verse 4914 by leading me to concede "well if innocent babies who have never believed can avoid hell so can other people like the desert Arabs mentioned in verse 4914". It is obvious what he is up to. Even if newborn babies who have never believed DID avoid hell, it does not logically follow that adults who have committed all sorts of sins in the sight of Allah will do so. He brought up the subject of babies so I expanded on it by asking what I did with the intention of neutralizing his line of argument.
Even if/DID avoid hell is incorrect, will avoid hell because they are innocent of wrong doing and God does not punish the innocent. Adults who deserve to go to hell will go to hell, yes.