Members Comments on Formal Debate on Abrogation in Quran
-
another good point made by AQ, Islam is NOT the LAST religion as Th1 says it is, it is in fact THE ONLY religion for humanity peace
AQ = 3, Th1 = 0
Are you sure ? he didn't answer my questions, he didn't understand the point of ssaying last religion, so the one who answered very well the questions and put every verse in its context is with 0 . well that shows one thing is that you all hate me and you don't love the truth .
-
he answered bravo Well done Th1
AQ = 3, Th1 = 1
Ayisha , he didn't answer my question, ask him to answer , this is not fair .
-
Well ladies and gentlemen, I told you his psychic condition is not stable. Don't further complicate his state. He is debating on a topic about which he said this
Re Opposite Meaning
? Reply #7 on April 04, 2010, 020544 PM ? Quote
Quote from 1CELOSTNOWFOUND on April 04, 2010, 091127 AM
Peace
Thanks for the responses.
One of the reasons for my question is because I am currently studying the supposed concept of abrogation in Quran.
We find that the derivatives of "nasakha" that appear in 2106 & 2252 are usually understood in the vein of abrogation, cancellation, etc.
In 7154 & 4529, we find that the derivatives of "nasakha" are understood in the vein of something written down or preserved.
This poses a problem because canceling or annulling something is quite the opposite of preserving it.
I don't accept "nasakha" as abrogation, but would like some input on any other concepts that present themselves as contradictory in the way they are usually translated because I feel that they need to be dealt with. We must take up the challenge of any apparent contradictions in the Quran if we are truly seeking the truth.
ImraanNo, nasakha doesn't mean abrogate neither cancel, it's change the first situation by another one for decreasing the law of the first situation. like someone who has been judged to stay in jail for ever, then they decreased this punishment by limiting the period (40 years in jail or less)
-
He just wanted my answers, this is not a debate . I'm off .
-
Are you sure ? he didn't answer my questions, he didn't understand the point of ssaying last religion, so the one who answered very well the questions and put every verse in its context is with 0 . well that shows one thing is that you all hate me and you don't love the truth .
No it shows you haven't quite got the debate and you are trying to sidetrack off the topic of the debate.
he has answered more questions than you so far and he asked the first question which it took you 2 pages to answer.
i dont hate you in any way at all. The POINT is that I am here in this forum because the majority of the members believe along the same lines as I do and I am here to read articles and discussions about others points of view without being hounded and harrassed for my belief. You are here because you DO NOT believe the same things and are trying very badly and in a bad manner to show us we are wrong, so far its not working. The point of the debate is because YOU have come HERE and shouted loudly about many things, including abrogation and have claimed you have great knowledge on all things. The onus is on YOU to show WHY you follow that belief, not on US (or AQ) to show why he/we dont, but he WILL if you debate properly with him instead of going off in a 'everybody hates me' tantrum.
NO ONE here hates you and even after all your rants and nasty words and accusations, we still think of you as 'brother' in Islam and hope that a small part of you is still a seeker of truth instead of claiming you hold all the truth and no one can teach you anything. You are 21 years old bro, you have much to learn in your life and your opinions on many things SHOULD change as that is the natural order of growing.
-
Ayisha, the debate wasn't meant to learn anything which you can apply from the Quran. Rather its to show that the ulema got their little tricks to obscure us from engaging directly with the Quran. The truth is, no one can agree on how many ayah are abrogated. That's why Th1 is very hesitant to answer the question. The good news tho is that many modern ulema have rejected this false belief in abrogation.
-
It already confirmed what we knew. Th1 is a runner, which is unacceptable.
-
Ayisha, the debate wasn't meant to learn anything which you can apply from the Quran. Rather its to show that the ulema got their little tricks to obscure us from engaging directly with the Quran. The truth is, no one can agree on how many ayah are abrogated. That's why Th1 is very hesitant to answer the question. The good news tho is that many modern ulema have rejected this false belief in abrogation.
I know bro but I would have hoped he could give the ayat and reasons why he believes them to be abrogated instead of a verse that 'mentions' there were 'some' at 'some' point, which we know anyway. I accept i was hoping in vain with Th1 though but it shows he isn't even sure what he believes and WHY, which is quite sad really especially as he refuses to even think for himself and make his own decisions based on his own research, which of course was glaringly obvious anyway.
If nothing else though it MAY stop him shouting 'I know everything, bring one to debate I will make him quiet with my great knowledge'' ;D
did anyone see that pig just fly by?
-
I think I saw that pig flying too, Ayisha. It was oinking 'never gonna happen so don't dream, Ayisha!'
-
I can comment on this, although I be a newbie here.
"Abrogate" is originally a Latin word, meaning to nullify a law.
The Roman government was designed to be a Republic and decisions were made, in theory, by consensus.Of course, Rome has been through.... several consensuses, in the past 2, 000 years or so.
(I'm a little picky about words, theses days. In fact, I've made a few up myself.)
( -
I can comment on this, although I be a newbie here.
"Abrogate" is originally a Latin word, meaning to nullify a law.
The Roman government was designed to be a Republic and decisions were made, in theory, by consensus.Of course, Rome has been through.... several consensuses, in the past 2, 000 years or so.
(I'm a little picky about words, theses days. In fact, I've made a few up myself.)
peace Im all for making up new words, it adds to conversations and adds to the fun of confusing people ;D
There are (from what I have read on the subject which is not a great massive lots but enough) verses that are IN Quran that some Muslims (and scholars) claim have been 'abrogated' by other verses. From my looking into those verses (which im sure memory serves me correctly was over 200 or something -) I saw no reason to even think they were abrogated at all and understood what must be a subtle difference which is why they have been misunderstood by scholars.
i might go off and look again myself, seeing as Th1 is withholding info on it yay
-
246 according to 1 list. Others vary between 5 and 260.
I did find something scary though
"al-Naskh, i.e. abrogation or repeal, has two meanings in Arabic (1) transformation and shifting from one place to another, and (2) cancellation and repeal.
513 But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds) for Allah loveth those who are kind.
541 O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
446 Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.
& & & &
-
Do you call this a DEBATE?
Theformer could have been knocked out in two or three posts!
If it is a debate a standard should be maintained? people like Edip, Arnold, Layth, ayman etc. are memebrs of this forum from whom people learn, weather agree with their thoughts or not, but this was just disgusting.
-
There are (from what I have read on the subject which is not a great massive lots but enough) verses that are IN Quran that some Muslims (and scholars) claim have been 'abrogated' by other verses.
Yes, I understand.
I think people tend to forget that the ayats are first, directed towards a specific group, at a certain time, from a certain standpoint. Once we are able to see this fully, we can then apply it to ourselves.
You know... kind of like Solomon's words about there being a time to sow and a time to reap and so on.
That's what zen is all about. Getting us to look at the whole picture.A thing can be both true and false, depending upon the circumstances.
It's actually very scientific.