Some questions to which Quran only followers can't answr, basically they can't !
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Since several of your concepts are confused
The confusion in not in me, but in the fact that nobody can answer to a simple question like I asked After the death of Prophet Muhammad until the first Ahadiths Book, what type of Islam, the muslim were following ? There were no one book of ahadiths, only Quran. So, how did muslim pray ? What amount of zakat did they give ? How did they do Hajj ? How did they do Fast ?
I will help you in giving an answer
ANSWER A - After Muhammad, Muslim didn't pray, didn't go to Hajj, didn't give zakat, didn't fast
ANSWER B - After Muhammad, Muslim invented a whole orthopraxycal system in which they include salat, hajj, zakat, siyam
ANSWER C - After Muhammad, Muslim followed Quran (means audible informations only)
ANSWER D - After Muhammad, Muslim relied on the visual informations and audible informations throughout the oral based transmission of knowledge and this resulted in the writings of 2 type of BOOKS the first is the uthmanian vulgate (Quran) and the second are the books of Ahadiths
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Peace
I asked you a simple question. You can quote your previous answer to such a question or just answer it here.
Joe
Yes I agree with you, your question is very simple and I gave you 4 choices A, B, C, & D. Which one is the correct answer to your question according to you ?
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Dear Jawad,
You riminde me of Thereformer1. Are you sure you're not him? I'll take your word for it! ;D
Anyways. I think you are completely lost! You put the word of man, the 1400-year DEAD man, befor the word of GOD, the Living, the Eternal, 2255. May GOD guides us all to the straight path, GOD willing.
peace,
Khalil -
Dear Jawad,
You riminde me of Thereformer1. Are you sure you're not him? I'll take your word for it! ;D
Anyways. I think you are completely lost! You put the word of man, the 1400-year DEAD man, befor the word of GOD, the Living, the Eternal, 2255. May GOD guides us all to the straight path, GOD willing.
peace,
KhalilDear brother,
I am not Thereformer1 and your message clearly expresses that you are unable to answer a simple question while I am giving you 4 choices A, B, C, & D. Choose one answer and it will help me to go further in this discussion.
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Peace Jawad
You seem to be a confused individual without a clear train of thought. I asked you, "to show me where the quran talks about giving a certain amount of zakat" and several posts later not only have you not given me a clear answer you've also gone off on various tangents from asking me about, "how did muslim pray ?" to "How did they do Fast ?". I'm not sure what these other inquiries have got to do with answering the question, "show me where the quran talks about giving a certain amount of zakat".
So instead of giving me an answer you give me a multiple choice set of possibilities according to you and ask me, "Which one is the correct answer to your question according to you ?". My question is not about which set of your proposed statements is correct but it is simply for you "to show me where the quran talks about giving a certain amount of zakat", and (1) "After Muhammad, Muslim didn't pray, didn't go to Hajj, didn't give zakat, didn't fast" does not answer that, (2) "After Muhammad, Muslim invented a whole orthopraxycal system in which they include salat, hajj, zakat, siyam" does not answer that, (3) "After Muhammad, Muslim followed Quran (means audible informations only)" does not answer that, nor does (4) "After Muhammad, Muslim relied on the visual informations and audible informations throughout the oral based transmission of knowledge and this resulted in the writings of 2 type of BOOKS the first is the uthmanian vulgate (Quran) and the second are the books of Ahadiths" answer that question. In fact in none of these statements is there a single reference to the quran talking about a certain amount of zakat.
Joe
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Dear brother,
I am not Thereformer1 and your message clearly expresses that you are unable to answer a simple question while I am giving you 4 choices A, B, C, & D. Choose one answer and it will help me to go further in this discussion.
Dear Jawad,
I'm ready to make a deal with you here. I answer ONE(no multiples) question of yours, then you answer ONE question of mine. Is it fair enough? If you accept the deal, go right ahead and ask your frist question from me and I promiss to stay course. Of course this is a forum and there are others that may participate as it is their right to do so.
Peace,
Khali -
Peace Jawad
You seem to be a confused individual without a clear train of thought. I asked you, "to show me where the quran talks about giving a certain amount of zakat".
Joe
What is so important to find the exact amount of Zakat in the Quran as the amount is part of the visual informations. Muslim saw Muhammad giving a certain amount of Zakat and there it is the amount of Zakat is 2,5 %.
I think you are confused and you don't understand the importance of the knowledge (ie. visual informations and audible informations) and the way it is transmitted through oral transmission.
As I answered to your question, now please answer to my 2 simple questions.
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Salaam Brother,
Regarding your question, I am pretty sure that everyone in the whole world, and not just "Quranists", will be unable to answer your question with one-hundred percent certainty. That is due to the fact that none of us was present at the period between the passing away of Prophet Muhammad and the compilation of hadiths, and none of us ever witnessed what happened then. Anyone who answers your question without providing evidence that can be verified, is well, a liar. I personally will say that you're right, as a follower of Qur'an only, I cannot answer your question. I cannot tell you what the muslims did 1400 years ago because I was not there, and I do not wish to say something I have no knowledge of. I cannot give you evidence. Instead, can you answer your own question by giving us evidence that does not rely on the sayings of those who have departed the world?
Anyway, I would like to know whether your question is relevant to your own salvation. Does it matter what the people before you believed and did? No one can be absolutely right when it comes to Deen. But as long as your intention is clear that you want to serve God only and do righteous deeds, I am sure that God will forgive you for your small mistakes because He is The Most Compassionate, The Most Forgiving. Just do what YOU believe is right and not just do something because that's what the others are doing.
I personally think that whatever answer to your question is, has no relevance to me. Partly because there is no evidence to back it up. Well you can rely on 'history', but remember that history does not equate the truth. Oftentimes, history is written to serve the purpose(s) of the winning political body so they can strengthen their power. History can also be his-story or hi-story instead.
I would like to add one last note about your question (I will not answer it by the way). Using the same logic of reasoning, would you ponder
After Prophet Isa passed away and until the term trinity surfaced (during Constantine's reign as history said), what type of muslims were the followers of Prophet Isa? Who were they worshipping? Were they worshipping God or Prophet Isa/Jesus too? Since the majority of Christians now believe that Prophet Isa/Jesus is a divine being (and they refer to more than a thousand years of Christian scholarship), therefore they must be right?
After each prophet passed away, whatever happened to their followers? Did they adhere strictly to what their prophet conveyed to them or not?
In my opinion, there are people who adhere closely to what has been conveyed to them, and there are some who go astray too (after their prophets passed away). This has happened to the followers of the prophets before Prophet Muhammad, and the same thing can happen to the us too.
In the end, just follow what you believe is the truth. If you have analysed the hadiths in an extent that you can find no contradiction in hadiths and that you believe that by following hadiths, you can be a better person and can make changes to the society, by all means, do it. We are here to learn together, to share our opinions and thoughts. You are free to disagree and we are not going to force them to you . May God lead us all to the straight Path.
My apology of not including any Qur'anic verses, since I gather you don't want us to rush into "giving Qur'anin verses" hehe...
Salaam.
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Dear Jawad,
I'm ready to make a deal with you here. I answer ONE(no multiples) question of yours, then you answer ONE question of mine. Is it fair enough? If you accept the deal, go right ahead and ask your frist question from me and I promiss to stay course. Of course this is a forum and there are others that may participate as it is their right to do so.
Peace,
KhaliHere again my 2 essential questions
My first multiple-question is After the death of Prophet Muhammad until the reign of Umar Abd al-Aziz during which the first ahadiths book was compiled by Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri according to Ibn Hajar, what type of Islam, the muslim were following ? There were no one book of ahadiths, only Quran. So, how did muslim pray ? What amount of zakat did they give ? How did they do Hajj ? How did they do Fast ?
or
My first multiple-question is After the death of Prophet Muhammad until the reign of the abbassids, during which first ahadiths books were compiled by al-Bukhari,Muslim, Abi Dawud (and others), what type of Islam, the muslim were following ? There were no one book of ahadiths, only Quran. So, how did muslim pray ? What amount of zakat did they give ? How did they do Hajj ? How did they do Fast ?
or
My first multiple-question is After the death of Prophet Muhammad until the first Ahadiths Book, what type of Islam, the muslim were following ? There were no one book of ahadiths, only Quran. So, how did muslim pray ? What amount of zakat did they give ? How did they do Hajj ? How did they do Fast ?
The sentences in blue and bolded are equivalent.
I will help you in giving an answer
ANSWER A - After Muhammad, Muslim didn't pray, didn't go to Hajj, didn't give zakat, didn't fast
ANSWER B - After Muhammad, Muslim invented a whole orthopraxycal system in which they include salat, hajj, zakat, siyam
ANSWER C - After Muhammad, Muslim followed Quran (means audible informations only)
ANSWER D - After Muhammad, Muslim relied on the visual informations and audible informations throughout the oral based transmission of knowledge and this resulted in the writings of 2 type of BOOKS the first is the uthmanian vulgate (Quran) and the second are the books of Ahadiths
and
My second multiple-question is What kind of muslim am I, if I even don't know how the one who conveyed the message of Allah did his prayer, his hajj, his fast or gave zakat while I am already acquainted by the fact that the only source of emulation is the same person (ie. Muhammad) ? If somebody denies this obvious reality then please explain me in full details why those around Muhammad, when he was alive, followed his every steps, in other words they imitated him so that they couldn't go astray and with the aim of being in complete unity with his message which was the revealed verses, whereas today when we see the Movement of Quran Alone, the sole thing that we perceive is discrepencies (worse than what we can find in Sunnism and Shiism particularly when it comes to rituals) amongst it followers (ie. see my above non exhaustive list) ?
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Salaam Brother,
Regarding your question, I am pretty sure that everyone in the whole world, and not just "Quranists", will be unable to answer your question with one-hundred percent certainty.
Here you are wrong when you say nobody in the world can answer.
I will help you in giving an answer
ANSWER A - After Muhammad, Muslim didn't pray, didn't go to Hajj, didn't give zakat, didn't fast
ANSWER B - After Muhammad, Muslim invented a whole orthopraxycal system in which they include salat, hajj, zakat, siyam
ANSWER C - After Muhammad, Muslim followed Quran (means audible informations only)
ANSWER D - After Muhammad, Muslim relied on the visual informations and audible informations throughout the oral based transmission of knowledge and this resulted in the writings of 2 type of BOOKS the first is the uthmanian vulgate (Quran) and the second are the books of Ahadiths
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Going to rest some hours, very tired )
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Here you are wrong when you say nobody in the world can answer.
I will help you in giving an answer
ANSWER A - After Muhammad, Muslim didn't pray, didn't go to Hajj, didn't give zakat, didn't fast
ANSWER B - After Muhammad, Muslim invented a whole orthopraxycal system in which they include salat, hajj, zakat, siyam
ANSWER C - After Muhammad, Muslim followed Quran (means audible informations only)
ANSWER D - After Muhammad, Muslim relied on the visual informations and audible informations throughout the oral based transmission of knowledge and this resulted in the writings of 2 type of BOOKS the first is the uthmanian vulgate (Quran) and the second are the books of Ahadiths
Salaam,
Can you then answer your own question then and provide me with any evidence? By the way, I think you misunderstood me. I said that
I am pretty sure that everyone in the whole world, and not just "Quranists", will be unable to answer your question with one-hundred percent certainty
.Of course if can 'answer' your question, but my answer will be backed with no evidence nor knowledge. Just like in an exam, if I am clueless about a certain topic, I can just randomly circle an answer, but that does not mean that my answer is the right one since I will not be able to provide knowledge to back up my answer. And the above 'answers' you provided may not be necessarily THE answer, as you have formulated them yourself.
As I said, I do not want to say something I have no knowledge of and that I was NOT present during that period? What I know of, is the Qur'an and that's what I can hopefully share with anyone. Unfortunately in the case of "history of Islam", I will have to withdraw from the discussion because I know, if I answer your question, I will hazard a guess.
That being said, if you know anyone can answer your question, be it a "Quranist" or an ahlussunnah or a Shia, bring her/him to us, if you are truthful!
Salaam.
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Dear brother,
I am not Thereformer1 and your message clearly expresses that you are unable to answer a simple question while I am giving you 4 choices A, B, C, & D. Choose one answer and it will help me to go further in this discussion.
This is not how a debate works. If a mutually beneficial discourse is indeed the purpose behind this thread; you are just here to disprove 'Quranists'. To what end? Heck If I know. And you are failing badly, I might add.
People have already answered your questions. It's time for you to start answering theirs. This is what we call a debate. I apologize that you're not getting the answers you HOPED for. We here actually use our brains and are not part of some mindless cult.
Peace
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Peace
What is so important to find the exact amount of Zakat in the Quran as the amount is part of the visual informations. Muslim saw Muhammad giving a certain amount of Zakat and there it is the amount of Zakat is 2,5 %.
To belabour the point that seems to fly over your head I want you "to show me where the quran talks about giving a certain amount of zakat".
I think you are confused and you don't understand the importance of the knowledge (ie. visual informations and audible informations) and the way it is transmitted through oral transmission.
You're going off on tangents and not answering my question. After trying to knock what you consider my ignorance concerning the methodology of the transmission of ahadeeth the question is still on the table. I ask you to show me where the quran talks about giving a certain amount of zakat.
As I answered to your question,
No you didn't. You have not even provided a single reference from the quran.
What you have done is paraphrase from Muslim, and that collection of ahadeeth is not the quran.
now please answer to my 2 simple questions.
You must be a comedian in all seriousness to ask me in like manner to answer something simple when you have not done so after several posts to one another. It is even more funny considering the title of your thread when you can't or won't answer my one question after this long-winded back and forth between you and I. So again I admonish all readers of this thread
Peace All
This is just a heads up from my perspective but reading the thread's title, and I have not read the thread, I think this discussion will go nowhere since the person who posted the thread already has their mind made up. So I would hazard to guess any discussion with such a person will bear that out clearly.
Some questions to which Quran only followers can't answr, basically they can't !
Joe
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hey. okay so i dont remember the verses, but there are articles on the site where u can find them, but a HUGE clue for me is in the Quran when it mentions people who are in prayer even when they lie on their sides. Basically by taking the meaning of contact with god as prayer (salaat), means a conscious awareness of god at all times is best, because it keeps you aware of yourselves. Since a ritual cannot be performed 24 hours a day, or laying on your side in bed, therefore salaat has a far more spiritual meaning than a ritual. fighting over how many bows and how many bends is irrelevant and misses the point.
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And another point of interest
I believe that the Quran is complete. And that it contains all that we NEED to know. Sure we may WANT to know more, but that is not what we NEED, because it is not in the Quran. Since the Quran does not describe exactly what people back then did, it is not important. The meaning is important, and that is given in the Quran. Everything of import is present in the Quran. Everything else is a mere excuse to fight among ourselves, or distract ourselves, or to continue to believe as we do. When faced with the notion of Quran as the sole guide, one is faced with personal responsibility like never before, because thats the kind of realization it brings. to me anyway.
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I agree with Joe.
I opine the OP's strategy is to kill any opposition by repeating ONE (MULTIPLES) question endlessly. We need lone rangers to counter this attack.
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Reformer Another question Quranists cannot answer Why is 2+2=5?
Quranist Every maths book says 2+2=4
Reformer I can't see the maths book and I can't read books anyway, so why is 2+2=5?
7179 And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.
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Dear Sir,
Thanks so much for your story below. Allow me to respond point by point
I think, you and those like you are verily not understanding the reality of Book of Ahadiths and Book of revealed verses in both cases they represent the same thing means a BOOK.
Can you please explain this? Are you saying Quran and hadith are a single book?
Here an attempt to explain you in more details
The vehicle of knowledge (what is heard, what is seen) during the era of Muhammad in most cases was the oral transmission. What was revealed to Muhammad and he spoke from his mouth is what was heard by the people around him, and what was seen by them is what Muhammad did in the form of physical gestural. In both cases, the vehicle for the visual informations and audible informations is the oral transmission. When one puts these informations (visual & audible) in writings it gives you a BOOK.
According to academic researches, a first opinion is that the revealed verses were puted in writings just after the death of Muhammad and compiled during the era of the third caliph Uthman, to give finally a BOOK called the uthmanian vulgate (al mushaf al uthmani) which contained all revealed verses to Muhammad, according to the compilers. 30 years skiped before having a BOOK which was merely a compilation of the revealed verses (many companions have had their own compiled book of revealed verses but all were finally burnt). A second opinion is that the uthmanian vulgate came into in its final form during the reign of Abd al-Malik b. Marwan and his governor al-Hajjaj. A third opinion is that the Quran came actually into its final form during the 2nd/3rd century. A fourth opinion, the less interesting, is that it came into its final form during Muhammad's era.
Now, the main problem is that the oldest manuscript of the uthmanian vulgate that we have today is dated of 3rd century of Islamic Calendar, otherwise virtually same century than the Ahadiths Collections Books of al-Bukhari and his likes. There is a real problem of dating early manuscripts of Quran because of a lack of consensus between academic researchers and ancient manuscripts.
It's well known that Zayd b. Thabit was reluctant to compile such a codex because Muhammad never ordered it and most probably he preferred the oral way of transmission.
Just imagine, if today you were to trust on an oral transmission of the revealed verses, I think you would flee Islam diligently for the same reasons that you reject Ahadiths Collections Books.
Yes you're absolutely right. I would reject them. Fortunately, this malicious story of yours is proven wrong by the Quran itself. The Quran calls itself a kitab (15/1) and tells us it was kept in purified pages (80/11-16). Can I ask you, would the Prophet read this aloud to thousands of sahaba and they would then keep the Quran as an oral transmission?
What make you trust history over the Quran so much?
Coming to the Ahadiths wich reprensent the deeds (in this topic they refer to ritualistic practices mainly salat, hajj, siyam, zakat) of Muhammad are nearlly same as reaveled verses (audible informations versus visual informations). Both have been transmit by the way of oral transmission in a first move, then in the second move the oral transmission was put in writings.
Once again these 'practices' are nowhere to be found in the Quran. Only words are the same but meanings of those words are entirely different.
