Some questions to which Quran only followers can't answr, basically they can't !
-
hadith followers and thumpers are so obsessed with daily rituals that they make their life difficult.
For your kind information, dear brother, if you had took a little time to understand what I wrote, you wouldn't comment like this. I am not telling to support the whole contents of Ahadiths Collection Books, by the way I also consider that there are ahadiths to throw in the dustbin.
My main concern is these four ritualistic practices namely salat, hajj, siyam, zakat.
I am not concerned by the permissiveness of stoning somedbody, or by the believe in the return of Issa son of Maryam, or by the arrival of Dajjal and Mahdi. Because these subjects are not in the Quran (part of the audible informations)
-
Peace Jawad
I suppose this is your way of saying no I cannot find "where the quran talks about giving a certain amount of zakat"? Instead of trying to stay on message with me you decide to continue to go off here and there with other matters and when you cannot do so with me dance with others on this forum. I've been waiting for about 24 hours for your answer to the question of "where the quran talks about giving a certain amount of zakat". To reiterate the one time you did try to provide an answer you paraphrased Muslim by telling me there is where one can find Zakat to be the amount of 2.5% of one's income . That, as we all well and know, is insufficient since I asked, "where the quran talks about giving a certain amount of zakat".
Joe
-
As I predicted, no one really answered to my question. All I see is a quick rushing towards Quranic verses while my first question was very simple. I am not vilifying you but only as a notice.
Peacebe upon you,
with all due Respect?Excuse me? No one answered your questions????? Quick rushing towards Quranic verses?????????? wow confused ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Towards what would you like me to rush? A brick wall????? The Abyss????? To Afghanistan?????
I'm a muslim and that is why i always go towards Quranic verses, i really hope that God will guide you.Peace.
-
My second multiple-question is What kind of muslim am I, if I even don't know how the one who conveyed the message of Allah did his prayer, his hajj, his fast or gave zakat while I am already acquainted by the fact that the only source of emulation is the same person (ie. Muhammad) ? If somebody denies this obvious reality then please explain me in full details why those around Muhammad, when he was alive, followed his every steps, in other words they imitated him so that they couldn't go astray and with the aim of being in complete unity with his message which was the revealed verses, whereas today when we see the Movement of Quran Alone, the sole thing that we perceive is discrepencies (worse than what we can find in Sunnism and Shiism particularly when it comes to rituals) amongst it followers (ie. see my above non exhaustive list) ?
Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.Let's try mathematics, okay?
Messenger and prophet of Allah SWT, Mohammad, followed The Quran.
Therefore, messenger and prophet of God, Mohammad, was a muslim.I follow The Quran.
Therefore, i am a muslim.The only difference between me and messenger Mohammad is this he was a messenger and i am not. Among the other differences, too many to put here.
Okay, do you see this now?Peace.
-
Dear brother,
What kind of justice it is ?
I posted 2 questions that still not answered but in return I get plenty of questions. And to be honest, I answered most of them excepting those that deal with Quranic verses.
Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.Thank God for guiding me.
You said here where i quoted you that you answered most of them except the ones that deal with Quranic verses.Why not? Why didn't you answer those that deal with Quranic verses?
Are you afraid of The Truth?
Are you afraid of The Quran?
Are you afraid of the specific verses?
Are you afraid where God used the word hadith?Plenty of people have already given you plenty of evidence here, Quranic verses and you still don't wanna deal with the Quranic verses????? Why not?
Peace.
-
I don't think so because I searched on this forum and on others but I didn't find any response.
Here again my 2 essential questions
My first multiple-question is After the death of Prophet Muhammad until the reign of Umar Abd al-Aziz during which the first ahadiths book was compiled by Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri according to Ibn Hajar, what type of Islam, the muslim were following ? There were no one book of ahadiths, only Quran. So, how did muslim pray ? What amount of zakat did they give ? How did they do Hajj ? How did they do Fast ?
or
My first multiple-question is After the death of Prophet Muhammad until the reign of the abbassids, during which first ahadiths books were compiled by al-Bukhari,Muslim, Abi Dawud (and others), what type of Islam, the muslim were following ? There were no one book of ahadiths, only Quran. So, how did muslim pray ? What amount of zakat did they give ? How did they do Hajj ? How did they do Fast ?
and
My second multiple-question is What kind of muslim am I, if I even don't know how the one who conveyed the message of Allah did his prayer, his hajj, his fast or gave zakat while I am already acquainted by the fact that the only source of emulation is the same person (ie. Muhammad) ? If somebody denies this obvious reality then please explain me in full details why those around Muhammad, when he was alive, followed his every steps, in other words they imitated him so that they couldn't go astray and with the aim of being in complete unity with his message which was the revealed verses, whereas today when we see the Movement of Quran Alone, the sole thing that we perceive is discrepencies (worse than what we can find in Sunnism and Shiism particularly when it comes to rituals) amongst it followers (ie. see my above non exhaustive list) ?
Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.What type of Islam did they follow? How many of Islams were there then?
How did muslims pray? Didn't they ask messenger Mohammad?
I have already told you regarding zakat 2215, 219, 6141. Please ponder over them.
Messenger and prophet of God, Mohammad, was given The Quran to warn the people. Not to add or delete stuff. Mohammad followed what he preached. When he for example received 56, he did just that, he did not add anything nor leave out anything, if he did, he'd be punished.
I think you should read The Quran more carefully and ponder over the verses you are reading because there isa message in The Quran and i think you are not quite getting it, no offense.
Peace.
-
Peacebe upon you,
with all due Respect?Towards what would you like me to rush? A brick wall? The Abyss? To Afghanistan?
I'm a muslim and that is why i always go towards Quranic verses, i really hope that God will guide you.Peace.
Very easy to answer you. Towards your 'Aql my brother before rushing towards Quranic verses.
The vehicle of knowledge (what is heard, what is seen) during the era of Muhammad in most cases was the oral transmission. What was revealed to Muhammad and he spoke from his mouth is what was heard by the people around him, and what was seen by them is what Muhammad did in the form of physical gestural. In both cases, the vehicle for the visual informations and audible informations is the oral transmission. When one puts these informations (visual & audible) in writings it gives you a BOOK.
-
Finally somebody initiates to answer to my first question. Thank you very much for your answer buddy.
Welcome, Now could you answer my questions please, I will post them again to save you looking.
Before the revelation to Muhammed, did he pray, fast, give charity and if so, how?Can you please provide the hadith that says 2.5% of wealth to pay in zakat.
Thank you -
Very easy to answer you. Towards your 'Aql my brother before rushing towards Quranic verses.
Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.I don't speak Arabic, so please translate 'Akl.
It's kinda weird but i always, always go first towards the Quranic verses and in the past, i've quit jobs and jobs because i wanted to follow Quran more. See?Also, can you please provide some more questions, i love this dialogue and we should be stuck on the same questions for so long. Ask more and different questions, like ho many wives did the messenger Mohammad marry and is wearing jeans a sin and can i direct movies in Hollywood. Believe me, i'm not being sarcastic, i'm a writer myself and i have written scripts so now i'd like to see if according what you believe, is this a sin or not?
Fire away.
Friendly fire, of course.
Peace be upon you. -
Before the revelation to Muhammed, did he pray, fast, give charity and if so, how?
Most of muslim ritualistic practices existed before Islam either in polytheistic bedouins milieu or jews and christians milieu of Medina. When Muhammad became the messenger of Allah, he used to pray in Kaaba and once in Medina after his emigration he formalized those rituals by purging them of all things that could undermine monotheism (Allah alone worship). Bowing and prostration were parts of the bedouin's rituals if you don't know, even turning around the Kaaba. This step of formalization was necessary to give an identity to the followers of Muhammad's message and to strenghten the cohesion between his followers. In fact, when Muhammad came to Medina he had to build a new muslim society to which he gave ritual codes, social codes, political codes etc. based upon the divine inspirations (revealed verses) that he received.
Do you seriously think that one day Muhammad came before his followers and said to them "Ok guys ! You can pray as you want, you can give zakat as you want, you can do anything you want. Just build an anarchic muslim system."
They even didn't have any written book to rely on, all knowloedge was transmited through oral transmission (visual informations and audible informations).
Can you please provide the hadith that says 2.5% of wealth to pay in zakat.
Thank youThe Quran doesn't give the definition of zakatable wealth nor does it provide the required percentages in zakah. It is left to Sunnah (oral transmission based knowledge) to give, by example or by directives, details of the general Quranic command and to convert the theoretical axioms of the Quran into a living reality in human life.
Zakah is, before anything else, a religious obligation and allowing its rates to change according to changing circumstances is equal to removing this sacred character of zakah and putting it in the hands of governments and rulers to tamper with. One time they may make it 20% and another time they may make it 30% or a progressive tax.
The amount that come repeatedly in Ahadiths about zakat is one fourth of a tenth (approximately 2,5 %). If you want a hadith about this, just do research in some Ahadiths Collection Books.
-
Also, can you please provide some more questions, i love this dialogue and we should be stuck on the same questions for so long.
For sure I will but before I post some more questions, let all participants to this topic clearly answer to my 2 previous questions. They even can't choose one answer from the four I give, to answer to my first question.
My first question is After the death of Prophet Muhammad until the first Ahadiths Book, what type of Islam, the muslim were following as there were no one book of ahadiths, only Quran. So, how did muslim pray, what amount of zakat did they give, how did they do Hajj, how did they do Fast ?
Here again the four probable answers for my first question
ANSWER A - After Muhammad, Muslim didn't pray, didn't go to Hajj, didn't give zakat, didn't fast
ANSWER B - After Muhammad, Muslim invented a whole orthopraxycal system in which they include salat, hajj, zakat, siyam
ANSWER C - After Muhammad, Muslim followed Quran (means audible informations only)
ANSWER D - After Muhammad, Muslim relied on the visual informations and audible informations throughout the oral based transmission of knowledge and this resulted in the writings of 2 type of BOOKS the first is the uthmanian vulgate (Quran) and the second are the books of Ahadiths
-
Need some rest, tomorrow I will answer to your new questions. Good morning sun or Good night to everybody.
-
Most of muslim ritualistic practices existed before Islam either in polytheistic bedouins milieu or jews and christians milieu of Medina. When Muhammad became the messenger of Allah, he used to pray in Kaaba and once in Medina after his emigration he formalized those rituals by purging them of all things that could undermine monotheism (Allah alone worship). Bowing and prostration were parts of the bedouin's rituals if you don't know, even turning around the Kaaba. This step of formalization was necessary to give an identity to the followers of Muhammad's message and to strenghten the cohesion between his followers. In fact, when Muhammad came to Medina he had to build a new muslim society to which he gave ritual codes, social codes, political codes etc. based upon the divine inspirations (revealed verses) that he received.
I dont think this answers my question but thanks for trying. You are basically saying these 'rituals' were around before the revelation of Quran, pagans were doing it, everyone worshipping anything was doing it and all Muhammed did in reality was remove the pagan icons from the Kabaa so they couldnt pray TO them. Then he 'formalized' the rituals and made them part of Islam. so why are you here asking how 'Quranists' do it?Do you seriously think that one day Muhammad came before his followers and said to them "Ok guys ! You can pray as you want, you can give zakat as you want, you can do anything you want. Just build an anarchic muslim system."
No I dont think that, do you?
They even didn't have any written book to rely on, all knowloedge was transmited through oral transmission (visual informations and audible informations).
They had written booksThe Quran doesn't give the definition of zakatable wealth nor does it provide the required percentages in zakah. It is left to Sunnah (oral transmission based knowledge) to give, by example or by directives, details of the general Quranic command and to convert the theoretical axioms of the Quran into a living reality in human life.
Zakah is, before anything else, a religious obligation and allowing its rates to change according to changing circumstances is equal to removing this sacred character of zakah and putting it in the hands of governments and rulers to tamper with. One time they may make it 20% and another time they may make it 30% or a progressive tax.
you didnt answer this question either. so someone inventing a hadith that says 2.5% is ok? 2.5% of WHAT exactly? and how often?
The amount that come repeatedly in Ahadiths about zakat is one fourth of a tenth (approximately 2,5 %). If you want a hadith about this, just do research in some Ahadiths Collection Books.
Then you do some research on the questions you asked if you cant even give the hadith that say what you are here asking how WE do it without.
2.5% is on silver, on money. most of the hadith talk in terms of camels and sheep not money. what if you have cows and donkeys and no money?
It says in Quran in just about ALL the same verses it says 'establish regular prayer' which is a LOT, it says 'and give regular charity' so as prayer is 5 times a day why not give 'regular' charity as oppsed to 2 set times a year??
-
In my view, Jawad has a set idea of what he thinks islam should be. Words like 'formalisation' and 'codes' seem to come out. Great but the problem is, the Quran itself simply do not propose these concepts. It simply does not care how one prays, for example. We can easily see this by the simple fact that Jawad has so far not produced a single ayah to prove his point.
-
My first question is After the death of Prophet Muhammad until the first Ahadiths Book, what type of Islam, the muslim were following as there were no one book of ahadiths, only Quran.
the typse of Islam they were following were
Shia
Saba'ites
kaysanites
Zaydites
Imamites
The Ithna 'asharites (twelvers)
The Isma'ilis
The Kharijites
Murji'ites
Jabarites
Mu'tazilitesThese are the sects which started directly after the prophets death when the people were mixing with the pagans and other religions again, hence same rituals
-
In my view, Jawad has a set idea of what he thinks islam should be. Words like 'formalisation' and 'codes' seem to come out. Great but the problem is, the Quran itself simply do not propose these concepts. It simply does not care how one prays, for example. We can easily see this by the simple fact that Jawad has so far not produced a single ayah to prove his point.
or a single hadith
-
there was only one 'type' of Islam which was from Quran. Soon after his death they started to split into groups and change things
but the quran tells us there were sects even at the time of prophet
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat6_files/6_159.gif
Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done.
refer to 9107 as well. thanks
-
but the quran tells us there were sects even at the time of prophet
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat6_files/6_159.gif
Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done.
refer to 9107 as well. thanks
good point, I hadnt looked at it that way, I looked at it as a warning against what was done before. Thanks