If men must be circumsized, then God is not only liar, but incompetent!
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Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
Wakas, rightly objected. Word 'Perfect" does not need comparison. While the elative "ahsan" is indicative of relativity. I don't know why "perfect" and "circumscion" caused some irritating confusion with reference to 9504 where there is no mention of "Perfect form". The compound used there is Possessive Phrase where the Possessive Noun is . "proportionally statured"; "exacting balance". It is the proportion that makes a man stand firm-which is the base meanings of the Root of Verbal Noun.
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Many things are "best" but are improved. In fact, this is quite common, e.g. with any technological gadget.
Is that what proponents claim, i.e. it should be done in order to achieve happy/healthy life?
No, best does not equal perfect. That is why no English dictionary gives it such a definition.Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
And lastly, when something is "best", the obvious question becomes best with regard to what?
Please note, that does not mean I agree or disagree with your overall view, just that this point of best=perfect is nonsense.
according to some translators, ahsan to do perfectly, to perfect
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat32_files/32_7.gif
Khalifa
He is the One who perfected everything He created, and started the creation of the human from clay.
Yusuf Ali
He Who has made everything which He has created most good He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,
Pickthal
Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;
Shakir
Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from dust.
Sher Ali
Who has made perfect everything HE has created. And HE began the creation of man from clay;God also calls himself; ahsan-al-khaaliqeen.
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Like what?
You shall have no other gods before me
You shall not make for yourself an idol
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor your father and mother
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighborthe 10 commandments given to Moses can be found in Exodus 202-17, 3411-27 and Deuteronomy 56-21 and Im sure you will agree they are also all in Quran, especially number 1 is there many times. There is not one there that cannot be found in Quran.
Salaam,
Yes, I am aware that the Torah is the first five books of the Bible.
Therefore by your argument, instead of abstaining from only 4 food namely blood, carrion, pork and food dedicated to idols (2173, 53, 6145 and 16115), we muslims have to abstain from food that is forbidden in the Torah (Leviticus 111-45)? The list includes animals with undivided hoof, sea animals with no fins or no scales, fowls that creep, birds of prey, carnivores and creeping animals. You may argue that God forbids different food to Jews because as punishment, but the forbidden food for Jews, as the Qur'an stated is (apart from the four food already forbidden for muslims) animals with claws and fats of oxen and cattle that touch the bones (6146) . Therefore tell me, out of the Torah and the Qur'an, which ones will you follow when it comes to the prohibitions of food?
Shall we then stone people guilty of adultery and witchcraft to death? Deuteronomy 222, Leviticus 2027.
Shall we too stone people guilty of apostasy to death? Deuteronomy 131-10
If you believe that the Torah, or the first five books of the Bible, to be confirmed by Qur'an, then I take it you believe the story of the Prophets in the Torah? Will you then believe that Lot became intoxicated and laid with his two daughters? Will you then believe that Jacob deceived Isaac in order to steal the blessing of his own brother?
There are many other things I can mention, but I will refrain. My point is, there ARE many commandments in the Torah that you do not find the Qur'an and the portrayal of the prophets in the Torah is oftentimes not as noble and honourable as in the Qur'an. In regards to Torah, I believe there is some truth and some errors. The Qur'an confirms the truth that you can find in the Torah, but not the errors. Since the Qur'an does NOT confirm circumcision, I do not take it as a commandment that should be imposed on mankind.
Salaam.
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God also calls himself; ahsan-al-khaaliqeen.
The Second Noun is Definite and Plural and in it is included Allah. Obviously all creators are not perfectionists. Here ahsan becomes superlative; amongst all the creators He is the Best. In fact it says He is the Best in creating everything in excellent proportion, both the thing itself and with regard to its proportion with everything else, which grants beauty and harmony all over.
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Well we're obviously not in the "BEST form", if the 'better form" is one with foreskin removed, now, are we?
In the eyes of God, best = perfect. If it could be better, God would make it better. Why would God design us with a major flaw, then tell us we are in the "best form", which needs surgery to make better?
You implied "best" means "perfect". In English, it does not.
Similarly, in Arabic, the relative term "ahsan" does not mean "perfect". Although, I'm sure it may be used like this somewhere, but not in AQ. Even in the example brought by RH, it does not prove anything.
I never said anything about "major flaw" or "needs surgery", so let's stick to the discussion at hand.
Human beings are not perfect, and their physical beings succumb to many problems, the only perfect being is God.
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You implied "best" means "perfect". In English, it does not.
Similarly, in Arabic, the relative term "ahsan" does not mean "perfect". Although, I'm sure it may be used like this somewhere, but not in AQ. Even in the example brought by RH, it does not prove anything.
I never said anything about "major flaw" or "needs surgery", so let's stick to the discussion at hand.
Human beings are not perfect, and their physical beings succumb to many problems, the only perfect being is God.
We're supposed to succumb to "many problems" though. We are not meant to live forever.. Therfore we are still in the best form.
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Human beings are born with defects/abnormalities and many other differences that differ from person to person. There are forms out there that are better compared to others, so this black and white interpretation of the verse won't work. It must then be pointing to something consistent or even generally and not specifically.
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true, doesnt say he will speak Arabic or have a beard either.
And the Qur'an does not assert that the Torah mentions these characteristics. It DOES however assert that the UNLETTERED prophet is mentioned in the Torah, whilst the prophet mentioned in deuteronomy is NOT described as such.
Isiah mentions it, and I think psalms is supposed to mention him by name
We are talking about the TORAH the definition of which supplied by you is "the first 5 books of the old testament". If you cannot provide a reference to the UNLETTERED prophet from those books then your claim that the Torah has not been corrupted by those entrusted with it is without foundation.
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And the Qur'an does not assert that the Torah mentions these characteristics. It DOES however assert that the UNLETTERED prophet is mentioned in the Torah, whilst the prophet mentioned in deuteronomy is NOT described as such.
We are talking about the TORAH the definition of which supplied by you is "the first 5 books of the old testament". If you cannot provide a reference to the UNLETTERED prophet from those books then your claim that the Torah has not been corrupted by those entrusted with it is without foundation.
Ok ;D
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Peace Ayisha,
So, by your logic, it's haram for Muslims to eat shrimp, crab, lobster, or any other shellfish too?
Some muslims dont eat shellfish as shellfish are scavengers and therefore unclean.What about 638, 6114-15?
638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned.
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?"
6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Do a search for 'Book' In Quran and tell me what Book it refers to. Also explain 'people of the Book'. The Book is the whole thing, the whole message from God divided into portions.
003.023
YUSUFALI Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who have been given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah, to settle their dispute, but a party of them Turn back and decline (The arbitration).The Quran completes the message from Allah.
There is no changing the words because The Book is with Allah, people can change it 'with thier tongues' as they have been doing since day one, but it wont change the actual Words of Allah. We have Quran, the final part of the message, it is in the same words recited to Muhammed and we are fortunate in that respect, but still there are 'People of the Book (Jews Christians Muslims) who try to change its message by adding to it and saying this is from Allah when its not.
I guess what God MEANT to say was, "He has send down this book sufficiently detailed, except for the part about mutilating little boys. Sorry, my bad, not only did I mess up on creating men, but I forgot about that part... Dang, this weed is really messin' me up tonight".
seems too much weed is messing up your thinking.You are quick to spout off these verses when it suites your needs, but when you feel like having masochistic tendencies, you completely disregard them!
I answered a question that was asked.Not only are you calling God a liar and an incompetent designer, but you are saying that he is a forgetful writer as well.
No you are the one that called God a liar in your opening post. You are the one that ignores what is said about the previous portions of The Book and you will not find anywhere in Quran where it says those Books themselves are corrupt, only by what people utter from their tongues corrupts what was said.If you have any question on which book supersedes which, just look at 619
619 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches.
Again I request you search 'Book' in Quran so you can make it clear to yourself that this Quran is the final part of the Book of Allah. There are many many verses confirming that Allah sent those previous Books and together, the whole theing, is THE BOOK.
As I said before though, the previous books were written in the words of man as far as we know and not recited like Quran was.
I guess what God meant by "Quran" was actually "Torah"... I'm sure He can create some powerful weed.
Peace.
I find your insults towards God to be distasteful. Maybe it would do you some good to stay off the weed a while and look at the book with a clearer mind?
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Peace Ayisha,
So, by your logic, it's haram for Muslims to eat shrimp, crab, lobster, or any other shellfish too?
596, Lawful to you is game from the sea and its food as provision for you and the travelers, but forbidden to you is game from the land as long as you are in the state of ihram. And fear Allah to whom you will be gathered.
393, All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel had made unlawful to himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, , "So bring the Torah and recite it, if you should be truthful."
4160, For wrongdoing on the part of the Jews, We made unlawful for them good foods which had been lawful to them, and for their averting from the way of Allah many
6146, And to those who are Jews We prohibited every animal of uncloven hoof; and of the cattle and the sheep We prohibited to them their fat, except what adheres to their backs or the entrails or what is joined with bone. that We repaid them for their injustice. And indeed, We are truthful.
16118, And to those who are Jews We have prohibited that which We related to you before. And We did not wrong them , but they were wronging themselves.
Peace,
Khalil -
The Torah is the first 5 books of the old testament, not the rest of it, just the first 5 books.
The 10 Commandments given to Moses were said to be burnt into stone tablets BY GOD Himself. Moses received these when he was on his 40 days on the mount. He returned and found his brother and the people worshipping the golden calf and broke the tablets in rage. God then instructed him to make 2 more copies which are said to be in the Ark of the Covenant. The reference to Moses and the calf are in Quran.
The Torah was given to Moses
Salaam Dear Sister Ayisha,
1st The Torah is the Old Testament given to the children of Israel gradually through their kings and prophets from the time of Moses all the way to just before the prophet Jesus.
2nd The Old Testament mentions of only TWO tablets which were broken after Moses throw them, out of anger. The Qur?aan mentions MORE than two tablets and no mention of them to had been broken, Moses just picked them up afterwords.
3rd Nowhere in the Qur?aan there is ANY mention of the TORAH given to MOSES. Moses was given the BOOK, NOT the Torah! Book of Moses is just part of the Torah.
Peace,
Khalil -
Some muslims dont eat shellfish as shellfish are scavengers and therefore unclean.
So? What some Muslims CHOSE to do and CHOSE not to do has no bearing on this conversation. You clearly stated that Muslims are COMMANDED to circumcised because of something written in the Torah for the Jews. Therefor, because Jews were commanded not to eat shellfish as well, then by the same logic, Muslims must be commanded not to eat shellfish too! Because some Muslims chose not to eat a meat which is HALAL, that doesn't have any bearing on anything... You said that Muslims ARE TO BE circumsized, because of the torah
The circumcision of men is from the covenant made between Abraham and God back in Torah, Genesis 17. http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017&version=KJV
All men of the Abrahamic religion are to be circumcized, that includes Muslims
Do a search for 'Book' In Quran and tell me what Book it refers to. Also explain 'people of the Book'. The Book is the whole thing, the whole message from God divided into portions.
Again, so what about this??
619 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches.
And what about these?
638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned.
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?"
6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Please don't ever claim you believe in "Quran alone", or that you believe that the Quran has all the answers. You are just like a Sunni or Shia.. You believe that the Quran itself is incomplete. You think that God likes to forget important bits of information in His book, and then lies when he says that it was complete.
The Quran completes the message from Allah.
No, as I have shown with 619, the Quran SUPERSEDES all other books, and none of the others can be trusted.
There is no changing the words because The Book is with Allah, people can change it 'with thier tongues' as they have been doing since day one, but it wont change the actual Words of Allah. We have Quran, the final part of the message, it is in the same words recited to Muhammed and we are fortunate in that respect, but still there are 'People of the Book (Jews Christians Muslims) who try to change its message by adding to it and saying this is from Allah when its not.
You just admit that people change them.. And then say that they can't be changed? Why would God talk about in the Quran about "saying something is from God, when it's not" if he wasn't talking about how the previous scriptures were corrupted!
seems too much weed is messing up your thinking.
Just because I don't agree with your view that all Muslim boys must have part of their dick chopped off because it was written in an old corrupted Jewish text, doesn't mean that you have to get your panties in a twist and resort to childish insults.
I answered a question that was asked.
No you didn't. You never answered how you can possibly say that you believe the Quran is COMPLETE and FULLY DETAILED, when you say that God left out important bits of information. You don't believe the Quran is the "greatest testimony" because you believe other books are just as truthful, and just as great, even thought they are contradictory.
No you are the one that called God a liar in your opening post.
Apparently you can't comprehend what an "If ---> Then" type statement is. I suggest you take 101 Logic course at a local community college... I never called God a liar. I said if you believe the Quran isn't complete and fully detailed, then you are in effect calling God a liar. And since you claim that it's not complete OR fully detailed, then you are saying He is a liar... Not to mention an incompetent designer.
Again I request you search 'Book' in Quran so you can make it clear to yourself that this Quran is the final part of the Book of Allah. There are many many verses confirming that Allah sent those previous Books and together, the whole theing, is THE BOOK.
Um if all of it is one continuous book, then why does God specifically call the QURAN the greatest testimony in 619, and not all the other books? If they are all uncorrupted, then why do they contradict eachother on so many fronts? Why does God make shellfish / cloven hoofed animals haram for the Jews, but halal for the Muslims? In that case, why would you assume something that was decreed for the Jews directly applies to the Muslims. Do you think God would actually expect Muslims to trust Jews about ANYTHING (especially the veracity of their holy books) after making such an example of how wicked and untruthful they are in the Quran? Hmmmm...
What about in 6114 when it calls the Quran sufficiently detailed it says THIS book, not "these books". It's clearly a singular particular, clearly denoting the Quran. If it was how you said and "book" meant ALL of books, then it would be called "THE book", not THIS book. Or maybe it would be called "THESE" books", because God clearly gives them separate names!
As I said before though, the previous books were written in the words of man as far as we know and not recited like Quran was.
I find your insults towards God to be distasteful.I never insulted God. Please read this article which explains if --> then... http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional
Maybe it would do you some good to stay off the weed a while and look at the book with a clearer mind?
You literally just accused me of being "distasteful" in your LAST SENTENCE, then again with the unfounded personal insults? Apparently you can't handle a normal debate based on intellect, and you must resort to ad hominem attacks. For the record, I don't smoke weed... I'm Muslim, remember?
But maybe intoxicants are fine and dandy for the Jews to smoke... So is it OK if i do? whatever
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You literally just accused me of being "distasteful" in your LAST SENTENCE, then again with the unfounded personal insults? Apparently you can't handle a normal debate based on intellect, and you must resort to ad hominem attacks. For the record, I don't smoke weed... I'm Muslim, remember?
excuse me, it was you that posted about God creating powerful weed and forgetting things, and you that claimed God a liar. THAT I find distasteful and I have not made any personal insults to you as it was you that was referring to God smoking weed, or did you forget that?
I guess what God MEANT to say was, "He has send down this book sufficiently detailed, except for the part about mutilating little boys. Sorry, my bad, not only did I mess up on creating men, but I forgot about that part... Dang, this weed is really messin' me up tonight".
distasteful whatever
Now get off the weed and go read what I have actually said again.
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excuse me, it was you that posted about God creating powerful weed and forgetting things, and you that claimed God a liar. THAT I find distasteful and I have not made any personal insults to you as it was you that was referring to God smoking weed, or did you forget that?
distasteful whatever
I heard what you said. I never was actually claiming that God is a liar, or forgetful, or was really on weed. In the English language, we sometimes use this thing called "sarcasm" when trying to make a point. I was making the point that YOU are the one that says God is the liar when he says the Quran is the best testimony, or that the Quran is complete, or that the Quran is fully detailed.
You are the one saying that God forgot and left out important commandments, like that we need to chop off part of a baby's penis or else it might rot off. Not only are you saying that God forgot to mention it, but he forgot to remove that piece of our skin HIMSELF, if he didn't want it. From your point of view, you must either think God is a liar or forgetful, or else there is no other reason why a necessary commandment would be left out of the Quran, when he says its complete.
Now get off the weed and go read what I have actually said again.
Rowr.... That's the THIRD time you've attacked me with the same uncalled for and untruthful baseless personal accusation.
I not only recommend that you take a class basic logic (like p-->q) but that you attend a seminar on proper debating etiquette or maybe just read the Quran where it says you should treat fellow believers with respect, and not to make unfounded / untruthful accusations.
I'm not quite sure why you're so mad at me. You're the one saying that God created us in a flawed form, even though he says its "the best", then you call him a liar and say its not "the best", that we should "change it with scalpels", then you say because he SUPPOSEDLY commanded Jews to do it, that that means that Muslims should do it too, and then you say that the Quran isn't fully detailed, and God left stuff out of it. Maybe you should be mad at God for being so incompetent and forgetful, from your point of view, not mad at me for pointing it out.
The way I see it, we are supposed to have foreskin, that's why He gave it to us, and that's why he never commanded Muslims to cut it off. I guess some people get really upset when they start to question their own paradigm, and as a defense mechanism to protect their ego, instead of admitting they might be wrong, they resort to anger and ad hominem attacks. You should know this, every time you back Jamaal into a corner, he does the same thing.
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I heard what you said. I never was actually claiming that God is a liar, or forgetful, or was really on weed. In the English language, we sometimes use this thing called "sarcasm" when trying to make a point. I was making the point that YOU are the one that says God is the liar when he says the Quran is the best testimony, or that the Quran is complete, or that the Quran is fully detailed.
peace peace peace
I fully understand the English language, I am English. I fully understand sarcasm and tend to use it a little too much myself also.
I understand the point you were trying to make, but please try to understand the point I was trying to make too.
God is not a liar and He forgot nothing and He clearly tells you there are other parts to The Book given before this one. The Quran COMPLETES the message.
You are the one saying that God forgot and left out important commandments, like that we need to chop off part of a baby's penis or else it might rot off.
I said nothing of the sort. You said he forgot because you dont believe in the previous parts of the message He sent claiming they are corrupted but as yet are unabale to show me the verse that backs that up. I said nothing of it rotting off and you have just added that to this discussion. i posted where this comes from, the fact you dont like that doesnt give you the right to say I said things I did not.
Not only are you saying that God forgot to mention it, but he forgot to remove that piece of our skin HIMSELF, if he didn't want it.
Again, I did not say He forgot to mention it, YOU said that. I have posted where this is said and I have also posted what it was about. It was a covenant between God and Abraham and nothing to do with the foreskin not being wanted and if it was a covenant whats the point of Him removing it Himself? Its not that He didnt want you to have it, but its a test of loyalty and a covenant He took from Abraham and his descendants.
From your point of view, you must either think God is a liar or forgetful, or else there is no other reason why a necessary commandment would be left out of the Quran, when he says its complete.
I neither think God is a liar nor is He forgetful and the reason it was left out of the FINAL message is because it was in the first part of the message. Why would He need to put in the FINAL part every single detail He put in the first part if the first part was still being adhered to?Rowr.... That's the THIRD time you've attacked me with the same uncalled for and untruthful baseless personal accusation.
Its you that keeps mentioning weed and even to sarcastically saying God smokes it and forgets things! That is blasphemy in my opinion. You are more concerned with yourself and what is said against you but you dont give a second thought to calling God a liar and a pot head.I not only recommend that you take a class basic logic (like p-->q) but that you attend a seminar on proper debating etiquette or maybe just read the Quran where it says you should treat fellow believers with respect, and not to make unfounded / untruthful accusations.
I suggest you read the parts about saying things about Allah and repent for those things you have said so far. In future it may be wise to think what you're saying before you post. Also wise to read the posts you are replying to because all I did was show where the instruction for circumcision was in Torah which is what you asked the question on. Also you have accused me of saying God is a liar and forgetful when I have said NOTHING of the sort and those things have come only from you.I'm not quite sure why you're so mad at me. You're the one saying that God created us in a flawed form, even though he says its "the best", then you call him a liar and say its not "the best", that we should "change it with scalpels", then you say because he SUPPOSEDLY commanded Jews to do it, that that means that Muslims should do it too, and then you say that the Quran isn't fully detailed, and God left stuff out of it. Maybe you should be mad at God for being so incompetent and forgetful, from your point of view, not mad at me for pointing it out.
AGAIN, I have NOT said God created us in a flawed form! Please stop twisting my words. God created His creation perfect as far as im concerned but the covenant was made with Abraham to circumcise boys. Your problem that you dont believe God when He tells you clearly many times that those previous Books are from Him. I have NOT said the Quran is not fully detailed, you are the one that thinks its not because you cannot see that the complete message from God is ALL the revelations He sent which includes Torah! Maybe YOU should be mad at God for not putting this in Quran even though it was an instruction still being adhered to by Jews and ALL prophets after because you dont believe Him when He says these books are from Him.The way I see it, we are supposed to have foreskin, that's why He gave it to us, and that's why he never commanded Muslims to cut it off. I guess some people get really upset when they start to question their own paradigm, and as a defense mechanism to protect their ego, instead of admitting they might be wrong, they resort to anger and ad hominem attacks. You should know this, every time you back Jamaal into a corner, he does the same thing.
I guess some people get really upset when it comes to them that they may have to lose their foreskin to adhere to one of Gods instructions! Personally I dont care what you do with yours, keep it for all I care, but you asked a question and I answered it with what is in Quran and the Torah, the fact you dont believe in Torah is not my problem, all I did was answer your question then you got mad at me for doing so.If I am wrong at ANY time I am grown up enough to accept that and I am here to learn and increase my knowledge. I dont hang onto ego that will stop me learning and if I am proved wrong i will say I am wrong. Maybe you should read the verses that tell you about these previous parts of the message then go and look at them for yourself and base your rejection on having studied all of the parts of the message as I have based my acceptance on the same.
This is from my studies over 8 years, I am not of the same belief I was 8 years ago nor 5 years ago, and I am still learning. if you or anyone can give me sound proofs that these books are NOT to be looked at at all then i will review what I believe today and I will say I was wrong.
peace
