If men must be circumsized, then God is not only liar, but incompetent!
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If you believe that male circumcision is necessary, then you are effectively calling God a liar.
In verse 954, God CLEARLY says that He created humans in the "best form".
We have created people in the best form.
"Best form" means "perfect form", by default.
It doesn't make a whole ton of sense that Allah would say that humans were created perfect, and then go on to say that you need to chop off bits of a baby boy or else he can't be a true Muslim. Either his creation was perfect, and doesn't need to be changed, or it needs to be changed, and it wasn't perfect, and God is a LIAR. Ya can't have both ways.
And of course, the Quran actually goes against this logic
4119 "I will misguide them and make them desire, and I will command them, so that they will mark the ears of the livestock, and I will command them so they will make change to God's creation." Whoever takes the devil as a supporter other than God, then he has indeed lost a great loss.
However, by saying circumcision is necessary, not only are you saying that God is a liar, but you are also that God is an incompetent designer! The argument that "Well, we have cancer and disease too!" doesn't cut it. We are not SUPPOSED to live forever. We are supposed to get sick and die. That's part of God's perfection. Furthermore, not every single human has cancer / disease. It's ridiculous to say that God designed 50% of humanity (all men) completely horrible wrong.. So wrong that if we don't take surgery into our own hands, their penis's will rot off. If you believe it's necessary to chop off part of a boy's tallywhacker, you believe that God cant' even design a simple animal like us without "serious flaws".. How could you trust him to carry through on any of his promises?
If we REALLY weren't supposed to have foreskin, wouldn't we be born that way then? Why do people have a LACK OF FAITH in God's creation?
Peace.
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4119 is for those who snip off bits of girls where there is no referrence to it in any of Gods Books.
The circumcision of men is from the covenant made between Abraham and God back in Torah, Genesis 17. http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017&version=KJV
All men of the Abrahamic religion are to be circumcized, that includes Muslims ;D
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The circumcision of men is from the covenant made between Abraham and God back in Torah, Genesis 17.
All men of the Abrahamic religion are to be circumcized, that includes Muslims ;D
How do you know these biblical accounts are not part of the corruption that has entered into the scriptures of the Peoples of the Book?
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How do you know these biblical accounts are not part of the corruption that has entered into the scriptures of the Peoples of the Book?
According to Quran the corruption was oral, just as it is now in Islam. As Torah was written hundreds of years before Quran and Allah confirmed these Books, then he would have made a bit more of showing corruption than just saying they 'changed it with their tongues' or 'changed the words from their right places'. Quran is confirming these previous books and in many places makes referrences to stories in those books.
002.124
YUSUFALI And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled He said "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."Genesis 172
2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3And Abram fell on his face and God talked with him, saying,
4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
22And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
23And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
24And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
27And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.003.078
YUSUFALI There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!004.046
YUSUFALI Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe.016.116
YUSUFALI But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,- "This is lawful, and this is forbidden," so as to ascribe false things to Allah. For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper.The Torah was both Oral and written.
The corruption you assume in these books that have been verified and confirmed by Allah in Quran, is through oral the same as the corruption of Islam is through oral.
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According to Quran the corruption was oral, just as it is now in Islam.
So you are saying that the written books of the bible - widely known as the "Old and New Testaments" - are uncorrupted? They are in their original and unadulterated form as sent down by Allah?
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Salaam Ayisha,
I am just curious if you believe that we should practice the commandments in the Torah, that we cannot find in the Qur'an?
Like what?
You shall have no other gods before me
You shall not make for yourself an idol
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor your father and mother
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighborthe 10 commandments given to Moses can be found in Exodus 202-17, 3411-27 and Deuteronomy 56-21 and Im sure you will agree they are also all in Quran, especially number 1 is there many times. There is not one there that cannot be found in Quran.
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So you are saying that the written books of the bible - widely known as the "Old and New Testaments" - are uncorrupted? They are in their original and unadulterated form as sent down by Allah?
The Torah is the first 5 books of the old testament, not the rest of it, just the first 5 books. NONE of the previous books before Quran, to my knowledge, is Word for Word as Quran IS but is written by men and findings of these original documents is still happening today. You only have to read some of it to see it is not a word for word recitation from Allah but mans attempt to put across the message that was given. Again, if you read it you CAN see the same message as you see in Quran. Moses is said to be the writer of Exodus and Deuteronomy is said to be the Words of God. The known writers of many of the Books are named prophets and messengers in Quran.
The 10 Commandments given to Moses were said to be burnt into stone tablets BY GOD Himself. Moses received these when he was on his 40 days on the mount. He returned and found his brother and the people worshipping the golden calf and broke the tablets in rage. God then instructed him to make 2 more copies which are said to be in the Ark of the Covenant. The reference to Moses and the calf are in Quran.
The Bible or New Testament is another thing altogether as the books were written by men mostly regarding what happened, like a narrative. Unfortunately many of the original books written were thrown out by the council of Nicea in 325ad where the Trinity was born. Some of the older books are still being found today written by Apostles of Christ and a better account of what actually happened and no references to Christ being the son of or God himself. The man who had more to do with the change in the Bible was Paul, also known as Saul, who was an enemy of Jesus during his (Jesus) lifetime and was said to have 'had a vision' on the road to Damascus and he is the one that put the corruption into Christianity and supplied most of what we have today. IMHO. It is good to check first on what Paul (St cough Paul) wrote of the bible then read it, sneaky little sod he was!
The Torah was given to Moses but then the Jews added the oral HADITH of Moses to it which is what they follow as well as the written Torah. They also added their own rabanical Laws which you can find in Talmud. As far as im aware, the Oral Torah and the written Torah together are what make the Talmud, I think thats also known as the 'Tanak'.
There are many laws that Jews follow that are not from God, hence changed the message with their tongues. It is best to read the books then you can see what is or is not part of the message from God as there is LOTS in those 5 books that is confirmed in Quran.
For myself I take Quran as the actual Words of God recited to Muhammed and given to us in exactly the same words and form it was given to him by God, but I also am aware the same message has been coming to man since way back when and Quran confirms that He sent these books, so anything I can read IN these books to get to the message IN these books is a good thing in helping to understand the message of God more fully. you do have to find WHICH of these books were actually accounts of what God said and what happened though.
Hope that makes some sense
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So where in the Torah is Muhammad mentioned?
Deut 1818 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.How many verses start with IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS MOST MERCIFUL?
This was said to Moses and Christians believe this is about Jesus
the only 2 things that Moses and Jesus have in common is
1, Moses was a Jew, Jesus was a Jew
2, Moses was a prophet, Jesus was a prophet.if these are the only criteria for considering 'like you' to be Jesus then it could have also meant Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc as they were all Jews and all prophets. So there is nothing to assume this verse is meaning Jesus as is taken by Christians because Jesus, apart from being a Jew and a prophet, as the rest I mentioned are, was nothing 'like Moses'.
According to some Christians, Jesus is God, Moses is not God.
According to some Christians, Jesus died for the sins of the world, Moses did not die for the sins of the world.
According to Christians, Jesus went to hell for 3 days, Moses didnt.
Moses and Muhammed had father and mother, Jesus only had a mother.
Moses and Muhammed came by a normal birth, Jesus was by 'miraculous conception'
Moses and Muhammed married and had children, Jesus stayed single and had no children
Moses and Muhammed were accepted by their people at the time of their prophethood, Jesus was rejected and put to death by his people. (John 111)
Moses and Muhammed were prophets and Kings over their people. By King I mean they had power of life and death over their people, Jesus kingdom was not of this World
Moses and Muhammed brought new laws to their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people.
QUOTE "Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-mothers; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATION.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.
"From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, "into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD. ..." The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before." END QUOTEJesus brought no new law and came to fulfill the old law (matt 517-1
Moses and Muhammed died normal deaths, Jesus died on the cross.
Moses and Muhammed both have graves on this earth, Jesus ascended to be with the father.
'from among their brethren'
Abraham had 2 sons, firstborn was Ishmael from Hagar. he was the ONLY son till he was about 13 years old then God granted Abraham a child with Sarah which was Isaac. They have the same father so they are brothers, the children of each are therefore 'brethren' of the other. the children of Isaac are the Jews and the children of Ishmael are the Arabs. Gen 1612 confirms that Ishmael shall dwell in the presence of all his 'brethren', Gen 2518 confirms he died in the presence of his 'brethren' the Israelites. The verse in Deut 1818 does not say 'from among yourselves' and so not from the 'children of Israel' but from among 'the brethren' of the people of Israel. Moses was descendant of Isaac and Muahmmed was from 'their brethren' from the line of Ishamael.'and I will put my words in his mouth'
Muhammed was told to "RECITE in the name of your Lord," that was the first verse of revelation of Quran and he was to recite Quran (Words of God) to the people.
Muhammed was more like Mose than Jesus was and Deut 1818 has to be about Muhammed and not Jesus.
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According to the Qur'an the prophet mentioned in the Torah is "unlettered" (7157). I find no mention of this detail in Deuteronomy.
??? true, doesnt say he will speak Arabic or have a beard either. sorry about that, I will be sure to mention it when I next pray.
Isiah mentions it, and I think psalms is supposed to mention him by name but it probably missed out his middle ones so I wont go find it for you.
sorry got to go now, its been...........erm.....fun? ;D
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Can you provide evidence for your claim of "best form" means "perfect form"?
Thanks.
954 says "ahsan", , in the genitive, singular form. Oddly enough, it's also in the masculine form. "Best" means perfect, because if it could be improved upon, then it wouldn't exactly be the "best", now, would it? How can something be the "best form" if it needs to have part of it chopped off in order to live a happy and healthful life, as proponents of circumcision would claim?
When something is called the "best form", it means that it shouldn't be changed, because it is already perfect. In English it is a superlative.
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"Best" means perfect, because if it could be improved upon, then it wouldn't exactly be the "best", now, would it?
Many things are "best" but are improved. In fact, this is quite common, e.g. with any technological gadget.
How can something be the "best form" if it needs to have part of it chopped off in order to live a happy and healthful life, as proponents of circumcision would claim?
Is that what proponents claim, i.e. it should be done in order to achieve happy/healthy life?
When something is called the "best form", it means that it shouldn't be changed, because it is already perfect. In English it is a superlative.
No, best does not equal perfect. That is why no English dictionary gives it such a definition.
Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
And lastly, when something is "best", the obvious question becomes best with regard to what?
Please note, that does not mean I agree or disagree with your overall view, just that this point of best=perfect is nonsense.
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The circumcision of men is from the covenant made between Abraham and God back in Torah, Genesis 17. http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017&version=KJV
All men of the Abrahamic religion are to be circumcized, that includes Muslims ;D
Peace Ayisha,
So, by your logic, it's haram for Muslims to eat shrimp, crab, lobster, or any other shellfish too?
What about 638, 6114-15?
638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned.
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?"
6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
I guess what God MEANT to say was, "He has send down this book sufficiently detailed, except for the part about mutilating little boys. Sorry, my bad, not only did I mess up on creating men, but I forgot about that part... Dang, this weed is really messin' me up tonight".
You are quick to spout off these verses when it suites your needs, but when you feel like having masochistic tendencies, you completely disregard them!
Not only are you calling God a liar and an incompetent designer, but you are saying that he is a forgetful writer as well.If you have any question on which book supersedes which, just look at 619
619 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches.
I guess what God meant by "Quran" was actually "Torah"... I'm sure He can create some powerful weed.
Peace.
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Many things are "best" but are improved. In fact, this is quite common, e.g. with any technological gadget.
Is that what proponents claim, i.e. it should be done in order to achieve happy/healthy life?
No, best does not equal perfect. That is why no English dictionary gives it such a definition.Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
And lastly, when something is "best", the obvious question becomes best with regard to what?
Please note, that does not mean I agree or disagree with your overall view, just that this point of best=perfect is nonsense.
Well we're obviously not in the "BEST form", if the 'better form" is one with foreskin removed, now, are we?
In the eyes of God, best = perfect. If it could be better, God would make it better. Why would God design us with a major flaw, then tell us we are in the "best form", which needs surgery to make better?
