If men must be circumsized, then God is not only liar, but incompetent!
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Salaam Ayisha,
I am just curious if you believe that we should practice the commandments in the Torah, that we cannot find in the Qur'an?
If that's the case we have to practice the hadith too since a lot of the things in the hadith (not in quran) are the same laws from the bible...
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If that's the case we have to practice the hadith too since a lot of the things in the hadith (not in quran) are the same laws from the bible...
I disagree. The 10 commandments of Moses ARE all in Quran. The covenant between Abraham, all prophets and God are in Quran although detail is not there.
The Hadith of Moses that were added are not in the first 5 books, which is Torah. The Hebrew bible, know as the Old Testament is the Torah, Prophets and Writings. God only sent Torah, the rest was added from Hadith of Moses which was known as the oral Torah. The Jews had the same problems understanding Torah back then as some Muslims do today and kept record of things Moses said and did so they could refer to that in matters they didnt understand. This is how the message was 'changed with their tongues' and it is a part of the Jews Bible today along with rabbanical laws also added which were derived from Moses hadith, just as sharia law is from hadith of Muhammed because Quran says there is no compulsion in religion meaning these are the rules but its up to you if you follow them or not.
now we are in a better position as we have the actual words of God of which there is no doubt (for me anyway) and we have the hadith separate from that and have not as yet put it all in the same book (unless you read M Khan translation!) but traditional muslims are claiming Quran and sunnah is Islam when it is clearly not. We have so far managed to keep a clear separation of these 2 things but have still 'changed it with their tongues' in adding rules and regulations that God did not give based on our misunderstanding of verses. The bit about Moses and the calf and what colour what size etc is a great example!
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Some muslims dont eat shellfish as shellfish are scavengers and therefore unclean.
Joel Osteen teaches Christians
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU5kek3D-4I -
596, Lawful to you is game from the sea and its food as provision for you and the travelers, but forbidden to you is game from the land as long as you are in the state of ihram. And fear Allah to whom you will be gathered.
Shellfish are crustaceans and are not game fish.
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Shellfish are crustaceans and are not game fish.
Whatever that is hunted or caught in the wild for food, either in the sea or on land is game.
Perhaps if you look up the verse, 596, in Arabic it would make more sense. Besides, the verse 6145 gives a clear-cut, and straightforward list of all forbidden foods, and shellfish or crustacean is not among them.
6145, Say, "I do not find within that which was revealed to me forbidden to one who would eat it unless it be a dead animal or blood spilled out or the flesh of swine - for indeed, it is impure - or it be disobedience, dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced , neither desiring nor transgressing , then indeed, your Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."
Peace,
Khalil -
Whatever that is hunted or caught in the wild for food, either in the sea or on land is game.
Perhaps if you look up the verse, 596, in Arabic it would make more sense. Besides, the verse 6145 gives a clear-cut, and straightforward list of all forbidden foods, and shellfish or crustacean is not among them.
6145, Say, "I do not find within that which was revealed to me forbidden to one who would eat it unless it be a dead animal or blood spilled out or the flesh of swine - for indeed, it is impure - or it be disobedience, dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced , neither desiring nor transgressing , then indeed, your Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."
Peace,
KhalilI did look up the Arabic
005.001
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.005.003
YUSUFALI Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.Lev 1710'And any man from the house of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people.
12"Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, 'No person among you may eat blood, nor may any alien who sojourns among you eat blood.'
14"For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, 'You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.'
15"(K)When any person eats an animal which dies or is torn by beasts, whether he is a native or an alien, he shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and remain unclean until evening; then he will become clean.Lev 1139'Also if one of the animals dies which you have for food, the one who touches its carcass becomes unclean until evening.
40' He too, who eats some of its carcass shall wash his clothes and be unclean until evening, and the one who picks up its carcass shall wash his clothes and be unclean until evening.Deut 1421 "You shall not eat anything which dies of itself
005.005
YUSUFALI This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).005.088
YUSUFALI Eat of the things which Allah hath provided for you, lawful and good; but fear Allah, in Whom ye believe.verse 55 is interesting and worth further study because I still believe people of the book are Jews Christians and Muslims, especially with it saying people of the book revealed before your time. If Muslims food is also lawful for Jews and Christians that makes me think that what is forbidden in Torah is also still forbidden, although reading 6145 with 6146 makes me think I need to study a bit more to be sure.
More from Quran and New Testament, not regarding food but an example of the previous revelations that I found as I was searching something.
007.040
YUSUFALI To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle Such is Our reward for those in sin.Matt 1924 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Mark 1025 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Luke 1825 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Spoken by Jesus about a rich man that had come to him asking how to inherit eternal life. He was told to follow the commandments and replied that he does, so Jesus told him to sell all his possessions and give to the poor, the man was sad from this as he was very wealthy. An example of not righteous enough if he has to give up his possessions ;D
I still think shellfish is a grey area as it is not a fish, not game and not clean.
One does have to be a bit careful though as Christians use the verse where Jesus said what comes out of the mouth damages the soul more than what goes in it to allow them to eat pork and shellfish.
Matt 1511 What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "
Matt 1517 "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "A parable but taken wrongly to mean its ok to eat anything unclean and the message in the parable is missed as Jesus also said he had not come to change the Law and he followed the Law of Moses which is Torah from God as he was a Jewish Rabbi.
Matt 517 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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Though I consider circumcision to be a terrible innovation, I disagree with the use of 954 in argument against it. The verse does not refer to bodily superiority of humans, but to our mental superiority above other inhabitants of the planet earth. The following verse makes that point very clear.
Peace,
Edip -
Though I consider circumcision to be a terrible innovation, I disagree with the use of 954 in argument against it. The verse does not refer to bodily superiority of humans, but to our mental superiority above other inhabitants of the planet earth. The following verse makes that point very clear.
Peace,
EdipYeah, when God says "form", he doesn't mean a physical thing, he must mean our mental status.
You say 955 proves your point, but when you read the verse after that, it shows that 955 is in reference to the afterlife.
955 Then We returned him to the lowest of the low.
956 Except those who have acknowledged and carry out reforms; they will have a reward of thanks.
The "lowest of the low" means hell, not this dunya. How can this dunya be the lowest of the low when we are blessed with God's grace in every aspect?
And why would God say "form" in 954 if He didn't mean the physical form?? Is there a such thing as a "mental form"? No, it's just a concept.. A form implies something physical.
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i think 954 is in regards to both physical as well as mental.
the lowest of low could be in regards to a state the person as in due to their corruption not necessarily hell.
i just read Asads notes
Note 2 (Quran Ref 954 )
I.e., endowed with all the positive qualities, physical as well as mental, corresponding to the functions which this particular creature is meant to perform. The concept of "the best conformation" is related to the Qur?anic statement that everything which God creates, including the human being or self (nafs), is "formed in accordance with what it is meant to be" (see 917 and the corresponding note 5, as well as in a more general sense - 872 and note 1). This statement does not in any way imply that all human beings have the same "best conformation" in respect of their bodily or mental endowments it implies simply that irrespective of his natural advantages or disadvantages, each human being is endowed with the ability to make the, for him, best possible use of his inborn qualities and of the environment to which he is exposed. (See in this connection 3030 and the corresponding notes, especially 27 and 28.)(Quran Ref 954 )maybe verse 3030 might be interesting to look at
(3030)
3030 (Asad) AND SO, set thy face steadfastly towards the faith, turning away from all that is false, in accordance with the natural disposition which God has instilled into man not to allow any change to corrupt what God has thus created this is the ever-true faith; but most people know it not.
What do you think this verse is about?
In regards to circumcision.. there are a few things that parents do to their children (that they can't return i.e. removing tonsils, circumcision) due to their understanding for betterment. Most parents want what is best for their kids and sometimes intervention is needed. is that saying we should blindly accept the practices of our forefathers? no, it's not. but it's saying not to be so judgemental. i don't recall anyone saying circumcision is necessary.
peace.
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i think 954 is in regards to both physical as well as mental.
the lowest of low could be in regards to a state the person as in due to their corruption not necessarily hell.
i just read Asads notes
maybe verse 3030 might be interesting to look at
(3030)
3030 (Asad) AND SO, set thy face steadfastly towards the faith, turning away from all that is false, in accordance with the natural disposition which God has instilled into man not to allow any change to corrupt what God has thus created this is the ever-true faith; but most people know it not.
What do you think this verse is about?
In regards to circumcision.. there are a few things that parents do to their children (that they can't return i.e. removing tonsils, circumcision) due to their understanding for betterment. Most parents want what is best for their kids and sometimes intervention is needed. is that saying we should blindly accept the practices of our forefathers? no, it's not. but it's saying not to be so judgemental. i don't recall anyone saying circumcision is necessary.
peace.
It is Sunnah and sunnah is above fard !
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023.049 And We gave Moses the Book, in order that they might receive guidance.
023.050 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
023.051 O ye messengers! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
023.052 And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood, and I am your Lord and Cherisher therefore fear Me (and no other).
023.053 But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects each party rejoices in that which is with itself.
023.066 "My Signs used to be rehearsed to you, but ye used to turn back on your heels-
023.067 "In arrogance talking nonsense about the (Qur'an), like one telling fables by night."
023.068 Do they not ponder over the Word (of Allah), or has anything (new) come to them THAT DID NOT come to their fathers of old?
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Dear bros n sistas,
Now I am not here to side with sunnis or the jews, hail but the truth is, circumcision is supposed to have shown many medical benefits as follows- Prevents urinary tract infections throughout life, most importantly in infancy
- Prevents HIV/AIDS infection and other sexually transmitted diseases
- Prevent cervical cancer in female partners of uncircumcised men
- Prevents cancer of the penis
- Prevents infected/un-retractable foreskin and penile skin disease
- Promotes Lifetime ease of cleanliness (surely)
- Women's sexual preference (ok tats debatable) yeah
It is well-known that many projects have developed in the African nations with the backing of the UN and WHO for mass-circumcisions to help fight disease. One can easily verify this information on their official websites
http//www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=22036
http//www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/index.html
http//news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0726_050726_circumcision.html
http//data.unaids.org/pub/pressrelease/2007/20070328_pr_mc_recommendations_en.pdfOf course you might come up with evidence that circumcision cannot be 100% guarantee against such infections. But then neither is locking your home a guarantee that you will not be robbed, right? But most people certainly do continue to lock their homes and have a little faith
Coming to the point that GOD has mentioned in the Quran that man was created in the perfect image, well does that mean you will never get sick or treat yourself for a cold? Coz GOD has made you ?perfect? right?! What about the vestigial organs inside the human body? How did these useless parts end up there according to your definition of ?perfect?? And why do people have to cover themselves up with thick jackets during the winter if the human body was designed ?perfect?? Maybe we should have looked more like grizzly bears according to your idea of the ?perfect body?? rotfl
Hope you understand what I am getting at. sunThe natural conclusion of that verse 954 would be that GOD has produced a perfect creature that has been allowed to evolve over millions of years to perfectly co-exist with its environment on this planet. Most importantly, man has been given a remarkable brain, the intelligence to take care of himself and overcome any difficulty he may face during his existence. That?s it. Nothing more, nothing less.
GOD bless.P.S. Sura 4119 seems more related to what is happening in science and the field of cosmetic surgery today. It in fact sounds perfectly matched as people today ?desire? to appear young their whole life, whatever the cost. Thus they undergo inhuman procedures and alter their ?form?. Doesn?t this make more sense? Also the medical world is in a race to change the building blocks of life and create their own. We can only expect abominations to come forth once they start playing with GOD?s design. As some experts point out, releasing new organisms into the environment can only do more harm than good. >D
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10132762.stm
http//www.nytimes.com/1988/04/17/magazine/the-dark-side-of-plastic-surgery.html?pagewanted=1-Harris O0
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I think female circumcision is totally unnessessary. In the west, particularly the United States, male circumcision was routine between the 1950's to the 1990's. As time has progressed, people have changed their views on it. I do not think it is a necessary religious ritual. That is my opinion.
Circumcision is abhorrent when it is applied to a rite of passage. In many African cultures, I understand that the circumcision of teenagers is prevalent. Now that is barbarous.
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I think female circumcision is totally unnessessary.
It is not only unnecessary, but a horrible mutilation and a crime, and I hope most of us here agree on that.
But my point was that some of the lunatics who propagate it, also claim that it has benefits for the man / husband. There are many men in countries where it is routinely being practiced who wouldn't marry an uncircumcized woman. So personal preference shouldn't be brought up in discussions about this issue.
And some of the arguments they bring forth in favour of its supposed "medical benefits" are similar to those we often hear in favour of male circumcision.
Female circumcision has not been prescribed for no reason, rather there is wisdom behind it and it brings many benefits.
Mentioning some of these benefits, Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi says
The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.
Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
...
From Liwa? al-Islam magazine, issue 8 and 10; article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat (circumcision of girls).
The female gynaecologist Sitt al-Banaat Khaalid says in an article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat Ru?yah Sihhiyyah (Female circumcision from a health point of view)
For us in the Muslim world female circumcision is, above all else, obedience to Islam, which means acting in accordance with the fitrah and following the Sunnah which encourages it. We all know the dimensions of Islam, and that everything in it must be good in all aspects, including health aspects. If the benefits are not apparent now, they will become known in the future, as has happened with regard to male circumcision ? the world now knows its benefits and it has become widespread among all nations despite the opposition of some groups.
Then she mentioned some of the health benefits of female circumcision and said
It takes away excessive libido from women
It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.
It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections
It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system.
http//www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/45528
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ofcourse! female circumcision is utter madness that serves no purpose. In fact it cannot be called 'circumcision' but is clearly savage "MUTILATION"... elektro
On the other hand, this topic suggests male circumcision as wrong too, about which i differ in opinion...
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Salaam,
Yes, I am aware that the Torah is the first five books of the Bible.
Therefore by your argument, instead of abstaining from only 4 food namely blood, carrion, pork and food dedicated to idols (2173, 53, 6145 and 16115), we muslims have to abstain from food that is forbidden in the Torah (Leviticus 111-45)? The list includes animals with undivided hoof, sea animals with no fins or no scales, fowls that creep, birds of prey, carnivores and creeping animals. You may argue that God forbids different food to Jews because as punishment, but the forbidden food for Jews, as the Qur'an stated is (apart from the four food already forbidden for muslims) animals with claws and fats of oxen and cattle that touch the bones (6146) . Therefore tell me, out of the Torah and the Qur'an, which ones will you follow when it comes to the prohibitions of food?
Shall we then stone people guilty of adultery and witchcraft to death? Deuteronomy 222, Leviticus 2027.
Shall we too stone people guilty of apostasy to death? Deuteronomy 131-10
If you believe that the Torah, or the first five books of the Bible, to be confirmed by Qur'an, then I take it you believe the story of the Prophets in the Torah? Will you then believe that Lot became intoxicated and laid with his two daughters? Will you then believe that Jacob deceived Isaac in order to steal the blessing of his own brother?
There are many other things I can mention, but I will refrain. My point is, there ARE many commandments in the Torah that you do not find the Qur'an and the portrayal of the prophets in the Torah is oftentimes not as noble and honourable as in the Qur'an. In regards to Torah, I believe there is some truth and some errors. The Qur'an confirms the truth that you can find in the Torah, but not the errors. Since the Qur'an does NOT confirm circumcision, I do not take it as a commandment that should be imposed on mankind.
Salaam.
you know I was just reading those those stone to death verses from the OT the other day...its clear where the hadithists get this from.
I wonder if they added these things so they could take it upon themselves to make islam more "appealing" to Jews &
And add stuff like Jesus will come to fight/slay the Dajjal to make it appealing to Christians &
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Salam,
Not only Circumcision is a contradiction with regards to the Quran as there is nowhere in the Quran that God asks the believing men and women to circumcise their boys!!!
but also deviant tradition, supported by a well known cultural and religious bias, even thought they claim otherwise.All the pseudo scientific researches trying to prove that circumcision is good for sex and health, and those promoting it are conveniently biased!
Do a background check, please.Also while you're at it what about try and look into the Risks, complications, and drawbacks of circumcision?
This is not something insignificant! you might consider it thought, same as do the majority of traditionalists.
Many of us here were brought up in different environment socially, economically and traditionally, and this plays a major role in forging inside each one of us a sense of belonging, a link that is difficult to part from.
We are told in the Quran to follow the Quran, and not accumulated traditions.
Circumcision is an old tradition and has nothing to do with Islam.Islam doesn't impose anything on anyone.. so may I ask you what choice does a child has?
Regards