Differences in translation of verse 39:18

siki

Dear brother

salam

I ask you this ,
"The major issue , " why did you translate the word "Qauoul" in 39-18 as Grand quran " you gave me an example of 28-51, which i proved was irrelevant to the context of this ayah".

and you reply with this ,
Quote Mazhar
"When a stupid does understand something but is not prepared to accept his earlier stupidity he becomes an idiot, i.e. starts behaving like a retarded child and lies with wide open mouth".

wonderful bravo

I further find in the next post, that you have quoted more irrelevant examples, like in 22-24, 23-68, etc, Am i debating these ayahs? they do mean Allah's words in these ayahs , which is quran, and hence you can translate them as quran,

Issue is weather in 39-18, Qauol should be translated as Grand Quran?
kindly cool down , debate and prove it to me that how have you translated Qauol in 39-18 as Grand quran?

After we sort this out , i assure you that we will move on to the secondary issue.

peace

siki

Mazhar

Look the sequence

I very well understand what Arabic word "Qaoul" means, When it is Qaoul of ALLaah, It obviously is Quran , which is being conveyed in this particular Ayaha (28-51), But how come you copy the same meaning and transfer into another ayaha (39-1 which does not have the same context? siki

You accepted that there the word "" refers to Grand Qur'aan. But the problem you raised was putting together two last words of Ayat 3917 alongwith next sentence of Ayat 3918. And you had further observed

First you take two words ( fabashir e ibbad) from the previous (39-17) ayat and attach them here with 39-18, and then half of the 39-18 is compeletly missing. This is manoeuvring (literly) Allah's qauol to convey a meaning of one's own suiting, at its best.
Siki

You were asked, in response, to above

siki,

Do you understand what a Relative Pronoun in Arabic means? And do you know it is also adjectival? And do you know it must relate to definite noun and must agree in gender and plurality? Please learn some basics of Arabic, thereat, you will be able to understand what the Arabic text is conveying, and before knowing the meaning first try to learn to identify which one is the complete sentence. I gave you only that part from earlier Ayat and following Ayat which is the complete context.-Mazhar

You instead of applying little common sense about what was told to you, said this

So you mean that two words of a previous ayah are completing the sentence here with 39-18? (although in some other instances they may)
I may be in need to learn some basic arabic , but for sure you need to exercise some common sense, let me show you why,

39-17 And for those who avoid serving evil, and turn to God in repentance, for them are glad tidings. So give the good news to My servants.

what do you think that those two words complete the sentence here in 39-17 or, are reaching forward to next ayat (39-1 to complete the context ?

siki

I again told you this explaining little nicities, though basics of Arabic, for applying mind before lengthening the debate

Dear siki,

There arer already many pseudo intellectuals on this forum, who know nothing about Arabic, yet are writing theses about the Aayat of Qur'aan by picking up many and at times variant meanings written by authors of dictionaries at the start of a Root.

You are so naive that you yourself translate the word "" "My servants". Where is "My" in it? "My" having been omitted and compensated by vowel kasra on a noun which is in accusative case being object of the verb, becomes evident because of "" after it. And remember when "" comes defining the people mentioned in the sentence, the sentence gets complete only with the clause begining with "".

My advise is that while reading Qur'aan neither rely on your common sense nor on so called rocket science. First try to learn Arabic and I assure you it is very easy for all those who are not at heart Munafiq since they even after having learnt Arabic give translations which the most stupid of Arabic student will never do. Mazhar

And another member of the forum after verifying it from his father who knows Arabic very well, I say this because many translators you keep relying upon had no clue about this, indicated to you that above is correct. But you preferred to say this

Mazhar ,

salam brother

let me tell you something before i start discussing the issue,

I find you to be intellectually dishonest, because over a period of time i have observed that when, you are not able to answer for a mistake , you conveniently ignore the subject and start posting regarding a non issue or a small issue which you can prove,hence successfully diverting the attention of forum members from a blunder of yours. I have seen you doing this over and over . A genuine servant of God never does such a thing , he puts his ego aside , accepts his mistake , corrects it and moves on.
Just because that you know a little more Arabic than an average forum member, so, very often you use it as an intimidation tool, to scare away others from your mistakes. It requires much more than knowing a little Arabic for understanding quran, after all we have 100's of million Arabic speaking muslims who definitely know better Arabic than you.

lets get back to the topic,

Where is the diversion upto this point?

And now you accept that in all the quoted Ayat the word "" refers to Qur'aan. But again you failed to see that I had indicated it that the word is singular, masculine that may be, by chance, you get out of your stupidity of thinking that there is mention of more than two meaning plural Sayings/statements referred in 3918.

Now again look at the words of Ayat

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therefore you, the Messenger guarantee/give glad tidings to My Servants;
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those who make themselves attentively listen the Word/Grand Qur'aan thereby/resultantly they incline themselves to act/follow, in letter and spirit, the best course described in that/Grand Qur'aan

3918

See here it is, like other places where you accept it to be referring to Qur'aan, "", definite, singular, masculine and accusative being object of the verb . And then the pronoun attached to the last word, which is a possessive phrase, is singular; masculin; third person; definite in genitive state; referring to "", definite, singular, masculine.

And now reconsider what you asserted

In 39-18 it is being said , "that who examine all the Qauols, and follow the best" they are the ones whom God has guided, they are the ones who posses intelligence" Here the meaning is not restricted to the word of God only ? Siki

Only those are men of prudence and wisdom who follow the """, which Allah has made to reach them unlike those who keep listening from here and there.

And even if you knew whom Allah considers guided one you might not have said "that who examine all the Qauols, and follow the best"

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They are the people whom Allah has guided
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and they are the people, they are the men of wisdom who look into matters objectively without overlapping it with emotions/prejudices/biases/whims/caprices and conjectural myths.

Have you noticed anywhere in Qur'aan that He guides people through "rocket science of siki"?

Listen how He and His Messenger guides people

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Indeed from Allah has come to you people "An-Noor-Visible Light-Giver and guarantor of continuity of life" i.e. the Book that makes everything distinct/vivid/apparent/manifest/visible/perceivable to vision and mind.
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Allah guides, through/with the Messenger and the Book sent with him, on the passage of eternal peace anyone who followed for seeking the approval and appreciation of Him.

AlMaida

siki

Look the sequence

You accepted that there the word "" refers to Grand Qur'aan. But the problem you raised was putting together two last words of Ayat 3917 alongwith next sentence of Ayat 3918. And you had further observed

i only accepted the usage in 28-51 , not in 39-18 , which i repeatedly asked you to explain,

For men of even ordinary prudence it would be clear that "", definite noun, singular, masculine refers to Grand Qur'aan

so , above is your reason for translating it as grand quran, should i show you exactly same usage in another ayah?

6-112 We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications

I don't know how to copy and paste the Arabic writing, i wish i could do that, but if anyone sees the Arabic , exactly same word has been used as in 22-24, which you translated as grand quran.

so try translating "qaule" in 6-112, as "grand quran" and make sense of the ayah.

lets discuss its usage in the subject ayah.

39-18 The ones who listen to what is being said,(word) or ,(grand quran) then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

If we replace the "word, or what is being said "with grand quran, the sense becomes,

That you should examine/listen to grand quran then follow the best out of it , It means that quran contains , the best , as well as better, and also no good material , so one should pick out the best from it and only follow that. Does that make sense? I thought all of the quran contains only the best .

What i think this ayah is conveying, "One should listen to what is being said, i mean every body's opinion, but then use your intelligence to evaluate the better/best material and follow it".

It is like , one should listen to every body's opinion but then use your mind and pick out the best advise to derive a course of action.

siki

Mazhar

so , above is your reason for translating it as grand quran, should i show you exactly same usage in another ayah?

6-112 We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications

Dear siki,

Why not you please first learn a little Arabic, then try to read and understand. There is no such word in text which means "to inspire in each other", and again neither you understand that here AlQaul cannot be read in isolation since it is part of possessive phrase for which reason it is in genitive case, and again you are putting plural word in translation for a singular Arabic word.

siki

Dear siki,

Why not you please first learn a little Arabic, then try to read and understand.

where did you learn the arabic from? send me the address and i will oblige

Dear siki,

Why not you please first learn a little Arabic, then try to read and understand. There is no such word in text which means "to inspire in each other",

when i copy and paste a translation , it is just for reference, it does not mean that i agree with everything that the translator has written/translated, so please, you should concentrate only on the issue/word which is under discussion.

could you tell me how do you paste the arbaic ?

what makes al quaol in 6-112 plural? and but does not in 22-24? ( i wish i could paste arabic in both ayahs side by side to show you )

Whats the proof that your underline assertion is correct ,

"For men of even ordinary prudence it would be clear that "", definite noun, singular, masculine refers to Grand Qur'aan"

As usual you have resorted to Arabic grammar intimidation method completely ignoring my logic regarding sense of the sentence that it conveys if we replace the word with grand quran. Kindly discuss it in a manner which i/everybody can understand/grasp.

I shall repeat my objection down below.

39-18 The ones who listen to what is being said,(word) or ,(grand quran) then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

If we replace the "word, or what is being said "with grand quran, the sense becomes,

That you should examine/listen to grand quran then follow the best out of it , It means that quran contains , the best , as well as better, and also no good material , so one should pick out the best from it and only follow that. Does that make sense? I thought all of the quran contains only the best .

What i think this ayah is conveying, "One should listen to what is being said, i mean every body's opinion, but then use your intelligence to evaluate the better/best material and follow it".

It is like , one should listen to every body's opinion but then use your mind and pick out the best advise to derive a course of action.

siki

Ayisha

( i wish i could paste arabic in both ayahs side by side to show you )

siki, Arabic herehttp//www.openburhan.com/

Ayisha

where did you learn the arabic from? send me the address and i will oblige

when i copy and paste a translation , it is just for reference, it does not mean that i agree with everything that the translator has written/translated, so please, you should concentrate only on the issue/word which is under discussion.

could you tell me how do you paste the arbaic ?

what makes al quaol in 6-112 plural? and but does not in 22-24? ( i wish i could paste arabic in both ayahs side by side to show you )

Whats the proof that your underline assertion is correct ,

"For men of even ordinary prudence it would be clear that "", definite noun, singular, masculine refers to Grand Qur'aan"

As usual you have resorted to Arabic grammar intimidation method completely ignoring my logic regarding sense of the sentence that it conveys if we replace the word with grand quran. Kindly discuss it in a manner which i/everybody can understand/grasp.

I shall repeat my objection down below.

39-18 The ones who listen to what is being said,(word) or ,(grand quran) then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

If we replace the "word, or what is being said "with grand quran, the sense becomes,

That you should examine/listen to grand quran then follow the best out of it , It means that quran contains , the best , as well as better, and also no good material , so one should pick out the best from it and only follow that. Does that make sense? I thought all of the quran contains only the best .

What i think this ayah is conveying, "One should listen to what is being said, i mean every body's opinion, but then use your intelligence to evaluate the better/best material and follow it".

It is like , one should listen to every body's opinion but then use your mind and pick out the best advise to derive a course of action.

siki

yay now I get your meaning bravo

I think that it would mean that there are some who listen to the Word (of Allah) and take a different 'road' from it, like beating the wife instead of walking out, leaving her while you calm down, taking the wrong meaning of some words. Although I do agree that Quran should not be inserted where it doesnt SAY Quran, when Allah says Quran He says Quran, when Allah says Word He says Word. Inserting ones own interpretation on a word like that is misleading people to ones own way of thinking, IMO.

siki

Mazhar

salam brother.

Further on this issue, other objections of mine on translating the word as grand quran , or you locking the meaning of "", definite noun, singular, masculine as Grand Qur'aan are,

The arabic word , even if it refers to Allah's word in context of a sentence, should not be translated as "Grand Quran" Because / word of Allah did not come down in the shape of Quran only, the previous scriptures also have it.
Whenever i am propagating something from Quran but am using my own words, either in Arabic or in some other language, technically i am spreading Allah's Not Grand quran, Grand quran consists of a collection of commandments, with specific/ precise Arabic, sent to mankind , via Prophet Mohammad.
So when Allah refers us to Grand Quran, HE uses the word, or , I would even go on to say NOT Even , because can be found in previous scriptures as well.

So Brother, I humbly suggest that you re evaluate your translation of the word in places where you have translated it as "Grand Quran", Because is word (even if it is allah's) , is Kitab, and is Grand Quran. And when Allah chooses to use one of these terms at specific places, it is by design.

peace

siki

siki

siki, Arabic herehttp//www.openburhan.com/

Thanks.

Ayisha

Mazhar

salam brother.

Further on this issue, other objections of mine on translating the word as grand quran , or you locking the meaning of "", definite noun, singular, masculine as Grand Qur'aan are,

The arabic word , even if it refers to Allah's word in context of a sentence, should not be translated as "Grand Quran" Because / word of Allah did not come down in the shape of Quran only, the previous scriptures also have it.
Whenever i am propagating something from Quran but am using my own words, either in Arabic or in some other language, technically i am spreading Allah's Not Grand quran, Grand quran consists of a collection of commandments, with specific/ precise Arabic, sent to mankind , via Prophet Mohammad.
So when Allah refers us to Grand Quran, HE uses the word, or , I would even go on to say NOT Even , because can be found in previous scriptures as well.

So Brother, I humbly suggest that you re evaluate your translation of the word in places where you have translated it as "Grand Quran", Because is word (even if it is allah's) , is Kitab, and is Grand Quran. And when Allah chooses to use one of these terms at specific places, it is by design.

peace

siki

Well said siki bravo

Mazhar

Mazhar

salam brother.

Further on this issue, other objections of mine on translating the word as grand quran , or you locking the meaning of "", definite noun, singular, masculine as Grand Qur'aan are,

The arabic word , even if it refers to Allah's word in context of a sentence, should not be translated as "Grand Quran" Because / word of Allah did not come down in the shape of Quran only, the previous scriptures also have it.
Whenever i am propagating something from Quran but am using my own words, either in Arabic or in some other language, technically i am spreading Allah's Not Grand quran, Grand quran consists of a collection of commandments, with specific/ precise Arabic, sent to mankind , via Prophet Mohammad.
So when Allah refers us to Grand Quran, HE uses the word, or , I would even go on to say NOT Even , because can be found in previous scriptures as well.

So Brother, I humbly suggest that you re evaluate your translation of the word in places where you have translated it as "Grand Quran", Because is word (even if it is allah's) , is Kitab, and is Grand Quran. And when Allah chooses to use one of these terms at specific places, it is by design.

peace

siki

First clarify that have you totally switched over from your earlier stance when you said about number of Ayaat that there "Qaul" means Grand Qur'aan?

Ayisha

First clarify that have you totally switched over from your earlier stance when you said about number of Ayaat that there "Qaul" means Grand Qur'aan?

wasting time, he has already said "The major issue , " why did you translate the word "Qauoul" in 39-18 as Grand quran " you gave me an example of 28-51, which i proved was irrelevant to the context of this ayah".

Mazhar

wasting time, he has already said "The major issue , " why did you translate the word "Qauoul" in 39-18 as Grand quran " you gave me an example of 28-51, which i proved was irrelevant to the context of this ayah".

Not wasting time, once at five six places he says about "" it is Qur'aan but here he takes as many many "Qauls" and with absolute stupid insistence even does not see the pronoun attached to the last word about this "", and then the following Ayat which says about having been guided, and guidance is given only through Qur'aan.

Ayisha

Not wasting time, once at five six places he says about "" it is Qur'aan but here he takes as many many "Qauls" and with absolute stupid insistence even does not see the pronoun attached to the last word about this "", and then the following Ayat which says about having been guided, and guidance is given only through Qur'aan.

in some places it could be Quran depending on context is what he's saying. he is asking you to explain and all you do is wait till after iftar and call him, and everyone else, stupid.
No guidence is NOT given only through Quran, it is given from GOD, so according to your statement now all previous messengers and people had no guidence as they had no Quran!
)

Mazhar

in some places it could be Quran depending on context is what he's saying. he is asking you to explain and all you do is wait till after iftar and call him, and everyone else, stupid.
No guidence is NOT given only through Quran, it is given from GOD, so according to your statement now all previous messengers and people had no guidence as they had no Quran!
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The principle for guiding people has all along, in time and space, the same, the Book sent by Allah through the Messengers. Before Qur'aan Toraat and Injeel were source of guidance. Now the GUIDE is the Qur'aan. When I say this does it mean that the earlier people had no guidance?

You seem not interested in rebutting what I have already said as to why that refers to Qur'aan since neither he nor anyone else can deny what is stated in the verse, except escaping the argument by superfluous repetitions.

Ayisha

The principle for guiding people has all along, in time and space, the same, the Book sent by Allah through the Messengers. Before Qur'aan Toraat and Injeel were source of guidance. Now the GUIDE is the Qur'aan. When I say this does it mean that the earlier people had no guidance?

You seem not interested in rebutting what I have already said as to why that refers to Qur'aan since neither he nor anyone else can deny what is stated in the verse, except escaping the argument by superfluous repetitions.

Quran says those that follow their scripture are not wrong too, so Quran is not defined as their only source of guidence NOW is it.

the point is that you have put Quran where God said WORD and as siki pointed out God says Quran or Word or Book specifically and if He wanted to use Quran he would have. It is not your place to define which He meant when He said Word and you should use what He gave you and not lead people reading it, which you are doing.

Mazhar

Quran says those that follow their scripture are not wrong too, so Quran is not defined as their only source of guidence NOW is it.

About this false perception of yours, somewhere I had requested you to look at the Arabic text and see whether it is regarding the past times or present times. You seem to have not liked to see the Arabic text of Qur'aan on the subject.

siki

The principle for guiding people has all along, in time and space, the same, the Book sent by Allah through the Messengers. Before Qur'aan Toraat and Injeel were source of guidance. Now the GUIDE is the Qur'aan. When I say this does it mean that the earlier people had no guidance?

You seem not interested in rebutting what I have already said as to why that refers to Qur'aan since neither he nor anyone else can deny what is stated in the verse, except escaping the argument by superfluous repetitions.

Mazhar

salam brother

It seems as if you are of the opinion, "That Allah mistakenly used the word instead of in all these ayahs, and hence you need to correct this for HIM. It was OK if you mistakenly thought so, but when i have clearly explained you the implication of its usage, your insistence is beyond my comprehension.

I was looking forward to discussing the pended secondary issue, but you seem unable to grasp and move on. kindly re read my reasons for such an objection with open mind, and re evaluate your stance.

peace

siki

Mazhar

Mazhar

salam brother

It seems as if you are of the opinion, "That Allah mistakenly used the word instead of in all these ayahs, and hence you need to correct this for HIM. It was OK if you mistakenly thought so, but when i have clearly explained you the implication of its usage, your insistence is beyond my comprehension.

I was looking forward to discussing the pended secondary issue, but you seem unable to grasp and move on. kindly re read my reasons for such an objection with open mind, and re evaluate your stance.

peace

siki

Dear Siki, I make another attempt from another angle and with different word, to bring home to you that how Qur'aan is referred without the use of word Qur'aan.

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You, the Messenger pronounce, "Indeed the Statement of Established Fact/Grand Qur'aan has since come to you people from your Sustainer Lord.

Here is the subject/doer of the verb before it. Who has come to people? the Grand Qur'aan.

And it is the solitary source of guidance to success in hereafter

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Therefore/in response whoever is guided then undoubtedly he guides/leads on the way only for his own self.

Yunis 10108

siki

Dear Siki, I make another attempt from another angle and with different word, to bring home to you that how Qur'aan is referred without the use of word Qur'aan.

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You, the Messenger pronounce, "Indeed the Statement of Established Fact/Grand Qur'aan has since come to you people from your Sustainer Lord.

Here is the subject/doer of the verb before it. Who has come to people? the Grand Qur'aan.

And it is the solitary source of guidance to success in hereafter

nope No, Brother,

You cant do this, when Allah uses ,"" or or or for his speech they cant be translated as "Grand Quran" due to reasons that i have listed in my previous posts. Only the word can be translated as Grand Quran.

Down below you will find every translation of 10-108 that i could find , translating the word as truth, NOT a single one has translated it as Quran,

I am sorry that i had to finally summon such a lousy argument in my support , because i strongly believe that purifying divine message is an on going process and majority agreeing on something doesn't mean anything, and somebody can always improve upon it. You could have been the one, but in my opinion your suggested improvement defies reason.

Muhammad Asad SAY "O mankind! The truth from your Sustainer has now come unto you.
2.M. M. Pickthall Say O mankind! Now hath the Truth from your Lord come unto you.
3.Shakir Say O people! indeed there has come to you the truth from your Lord,
4.Yusuf Ali Say "O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord!
Say to them Muhammad "O you people, now has the truth come to you from Allah,
Say "O people, the truth has come to you from your Lord,
7.Abdel Haleem Say, ?People, the Truth has come to you from your Lord.
8.Abdul Majid Daryabadi Say thou O mankind! the truth hath surely come unto you from your Lord
9.Ahmed Ali Say "You, you the people, the truth had come to you from your Lord,
10.Aisha Bewley Say ?Mankind! the truth has come to you from your Lord.
11.Ali ?nal Say "O humankind! Assuredly there has come to you the truth from your Lord.
12.Ali Quli Qara'i Say, ?O mankind! The truth has already come to you from your Lord.
13.Amatul Rahman Omar Say, O you people! there has come to you the truth from your Lord, 14.Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali Say, O you mankind! The Truth has already come to you from your Lord. 15.Muhammad Sarwar (Muhammad), say, "People, truth has certainly come to you from your Lord. 17.Muhammad Taqi Usmani Say, .O people, the truth has come to you from your Lord. 18.Shabbir Ahmed Say, "O Mankind! Now has come to you the Truth from your Lord. 19.Syed Vickar Ahamed Say "O you men! Now the Truth has reached you from your Lord! 20.Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) Say, "O mankind, the truth has come to you from your Lord, 21.Farook Malik SAY "O mankind! The truth from your Sustainer has now come unto you. 22.Bijan Moeinian Say ?O mankind, the truth has been revealed to you by your Lord. Faridul Haque Say, "O people! The truth * has come to you from your Lord; 23.Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah Say 'O people! The truth has come to you from your Lord. 24.Maulana Muhammad Ali Say O people, the Truth has indeed come to you from your Lord; 25.Muhammad Ahmed - Samira Say "O men, the truth has come to you from your Lord, 26.Sher Ali Say, O men, now has the truth come to you from your Lord.
27.Yusuf Ali (org.) Say "O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord!
28.Rashad Khalifa Proclaim "O people, the truth has come to you herein from your Lord.
29.Arthur John Arberry Say 'O men, the truth has come to you from your Lord.
30.Edward Henry Palmer Say, 'O ye people! there has come to you the truth from your Lord,
31.George Sale Say, O men, now hath the truth come unto you from your Lord.
32.John Medows Rodwell SAY O men! now hath the truth come unto you from your Lord.

I hate to tell you, that almost same is the case for the word , .Most of the translators have translated it as word/saying , i knew it from day one but i wanted to evaluate your reason for such a modification without a bias, or to put you under undue pressure. From my side I was all ears, waiting for you to come up with reasonable logic in support of your translation.

Should i take above quote of yours as correction of the mistake that i have pointed out?

peace

siki