Scholarly article proves earliest Muslims only did salat twice per day!
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I?ll say this, look up ?hadith? in a dictionary and look up ?hadith? in Quran. Once you do that look up ?truth?. When you?re familiar with the terms, re-read your statement
nowhere did i say nor allude to such a conclusion so really you reject your own logic.
Let me tell you again not all hadith = evil.
Dictionaries are not the only source to help aid in knowledge, it is a tool. Stop assuming. it?s a really bad habit, honestly.
I refuse to submit to your idol ?dictionary?. So please do not ever ask me to look up the dictionary when discussing the Quran. You are clinging to dictionary like Sunni?s hang on to Bukhari?s book.
I already told you that Quran contains nothing but the truth. And you agreed to it. Then why did you bring up this nonsense discussion. I have given you the possible motive for the discussion and I stand by it.
There?s a whole chapter about prayer and 2 times praying in the book ?the development of Islamic rituals? edited by Gerald Hawting, you can also find info about the 5 time prayers in it. Another scholar Mittwoch recognises Muslims prayed 2 times a day. Even traditionalist ibn kathir recognised it. In more later times you can find Ibn Arabi?s teachings, being famous for the morning and evening prayers he taught.
I already told you about my book of truth i.e. Quran. Then why are you trying to mislead me to your favorite books FALSEHOOD!!!!
For your information, satan cannot mislead obedient servant of Allah.
Lastly about the verse you quote in relation to imams, where did i say i reject the verse? Rather i reject your understanding of it.
Because of course you understand the verse and are refuting my position i ask you this
2173
Waja3alnahum
Translated as ?and we made them? who is the ?them? referring to?
This answer is significant for our understanding of the verse.
Again, you are showing your true color i.e. the use of dictionary. Your approach is to bring the discussion to a word so that you can consult the dearest dictionary of yours.
ah and also you seem to have included another verse 2179
what fact are we denying exactly here?
take your time and digest
I guess you don?t have the mental capability to do ?what if? analysis. Learn it. Then you will not be asking redundant silly question.
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The verse you gave referred to Isaac and Jacob who where a long time before Muhammed, even a long time before Jesus. I think we all agree that all of these were 'imams' in the sense of the verse you posted as proof nothing has changed.
Things did change regarding the practice from Isaac and Jacob through Moses to Jesus. The Christians now will tell you Jesus is the son of God, the living God, God in the flesh, is that what Jesus actually taught? No, it changed. Muhammed came and was told to establish regular prayer, he did, it was again changed.
Your post above agrees that it can get distorted, so one must assume you are expecting another messenger some time soon to correct it? Maybe your dad, a neighbour, you?
The point I was trying to make is this
Allah appoints the First Imam to teach righteous people the rituals e.g. salat
The Imam dies
The follower continue the rituals
Time goes by ??
?????????..
Rituals are distorted or totally lost
Time goes by?..
?????????.Allah appoints the Second Imam to reestablish the original/modified rituals e.g. salat
The 2nd Imam dies
The follower continue the rituals
Time goes by ??
?????????..
Rituals are distorted or totally lost
Time goes by?..
?????????.The process continues with 3rd, 4th,???.Imams
Allah appoints Prophet Muhammad as Imam to reestablish the original/modified rituals e.g. salat
Prophet Muhammad dies
Allah preserves the final book
The rituals are preserved as a consequence of preserving the final book
The follower continue the rituals
Time goes by ??
?????????..
Rituals are intact
Time goes by?..
?????????.
Rituals are intact -
Enough of your crap guest.
if you can't use a dictionary because you're so incompetent don't. WHY NOT use the Quran? you haven't and choose not to yet you're on about truth. yet all you do is copy and paste with faulty or no justification. pathetic for someone who is trying to argue a position.
you're so fallacious it's not funny, you're logic is based on appeal to authorities, you take upon tradition over information. you continue to be evasive and try using ad hominem on me, thinking you can pick on me by saying i worship dictionaries indirectly, by comparing me to sunni's and Bukahri.. seriously grow up. in all this discourse you didn't even answer one question.
I didn't ask you use a dictionary except for one question. but you have comprehension problems
again i'll ask you the same question
Lastly about the verse you quote in relation to imams, where did i say i reject the verse? Rather i reject your understanding of it.
Because of course you understand the verse and are refuting my position i ask you this
2173
Waja3alnahum
Translated as ?and we made them? who is the ?them? referring to?
This answer is significant for our understanding of the verse.
USE THE QURAN TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF. enough hiding in your shell and attacking. if you can't answer admit your weakness, get off you're high horse.
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The point I was trying to make is this
Allah appoints the First Imam to teach righteous people the rituals e.g. salat
The Imam dies
The follower continue the rituals
Time goes by ??
?????????..
Rituals are distorted or totally lost
Time goes by?..
?????????.Allah appoints the Second Imam to reestablish the original/modified rituals e.g. salat
The 2nd Imam dies
The follower continue the rituals
Time goes by ??
?????????..
Rituals are distorted or totally lost
Time goes by?..
?????????.The process continues with 3rd, 4th,???.Imams
That is exactly what I have saidAllah appoints Prophet Muhammad as Imam to reestablish the original/modified rituals e.g. salat
Prophet Muhammad dies
Allah preserves the final book
The rituals are preserved as a consequence of preserving the final book
The follower continue the rituals
Time goes by ??
?????????..
Rituals are intact
Time goes by?..
?????????.
Rituals are intactIf you really are that naive to think nothing has changed because we have the book, then you will be able to tell us the exact verses which describe the exact ritual of salat that is performed now.
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Enough of your crap guest.
if you can't use a dictionary because you're so incompetent don't. WHY NOT use the Quran? you haven't and choose not to yet you're on about truth. yet all you do is copy and paste with faulty or no justification. pathetic for someone who is trying to argue a position.
you're so fallacious it's not funny, you're logic is based on appeal to authorities, you take upon tradition over information. you continue to be evasive and try using ad hominem on me, thinking you can pick on me by saying i worship dictionaries indirectly, by comparing me to sunni's and Bukahri.. seriously grow up. in all this discourse you didn't even answer one question.
I didn't ask you use a dictionary except for one question. but you have comprehension problems
again i'll ask you the same question
USE THE QURAN TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF. enough hiding in your shell and attacking. if you can't answer admit your weakness, get off you're high horse.
Your ABNORMAL Approach is Learn salat from the Quran.
Now let's look at some of the implications of your ill approach
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This approach violates the Quran because the Quran does not tell us to learn salat from the Quran. Allah taught salat to imam and we learned it from them either directly or indirectly. The Quran commands the believers to perform salat
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This approach condemn people who cannot read. As they cannot read the Quran they wouldn?t know how to perform it. Likewise children cannot be taught as well. These constraints contradicts the Quran
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Followers of this approach equates their wisdom to that of Prophet Muhammad's wisdom when they say their way of performing salat = Prophet Muhammad?s way!! This is absurd because the Quran does not say that the followers of this approach were given wisdom. On the other hand the Quran does testify that Prophet Muhammad was given wisdom. This approach is trying to make a crooked path into the straight path
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This approach would have us believe that Prophet Muhammad was carrying a dictionary with him at all time to understand the meaning of Quran - a true absurdity
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With this approach everybody achieves the rank of Prophet Muhammad because they are following the Quran the way Prophet Muhammad did. To validate this claim they would have you believe that there is no wisdom outside the Quran in spite the clear revelation that says Prophet Muhammad was given the Quran and wisdom. They shun this critical understanding to justify their falsehood
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This approach teaches us not to trust righteous people because they will mislead us. Yet they would want us to accept their understanding. What makes them special? Aaaah the dictionary!!
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There is no concept of leadership in this approach which violates many Quranic verses. If everybody has to learn everything from the Quran and come to a common understanding then there would be no need for a leader as you already know to do the right things for all possible scenarios - A chaotic system
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??..
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???.
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What?s your paranormal approach? Learn salat from the faulty? Genius.
- You never answered ?who? the imam were.
- Your approach must also condemn the people who can?t see (i.e. blind people) these constraints contradict because they can't see the physical prayer ritual.
- You make no sense, clarify yourself
- A dictionary? Come on now, faulty analogy.
- What?s with you and ranking? Seriously it should make you think, the ambiguity must be there for a reason.
- Answer question 1 first. You think people can?t misguide you? You need a wakeup call, people are fallible
- For now all i can think of is 21-2.
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A system that relies on tradition? Who would have though that tradition was preferred over logic?
2170 (Asad) But when they are told, "Follow what God has bestowed from on high," some answer, "Nay, we shall follow that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing." Why, even if their forefathers did not use their reason at all, and were devoid of all guidance?
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peace guest,
Please provide specific Quranic evidence for the following statements of yours (in bold), and provide quotes and/or reasoning where the opposing side said/think what you imply they think/said
Allah taught salat to imam
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This approach condemn people who cannot read. As they cannot read the Quran they wouldn?t know how to perform it. Likewise children cannot be taught as well. These constraints contradicts the Quran
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This approach would have us believe that Prophet Muhammad was carrying a dictionary with him at all time to understand the meaning of Quran - a true absurdity
-
With this approach everybody achieves the rank of Prophet Muhammad because they are following the Quran the way Prophet Muhammad did. To validate this claim they would have you believe that there is no wisdom outside the Quran in spite the clear revelation that says Prophet Muhammad was given the Quran and wisdom. They shun this critical understanding to justify their falsehood
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There is no concept of leadership in this approach which violates many Quranic verses. If everybody has to learn everything from the Quran and come to a common understanding then there would be no need for a leader as you already know to do the right things for all possible scenarios - A chaotic system
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peace guest,
Please provide specific Quranic evidence for the following statements of yours (in bold), and provide quotes and/or reasoning where the opposing side said/think what you imply they think/said
Peace Wakas,
Reply to number 2
801 - He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away.
802 - When the blind man came to him.
803 - How do you know? He may purify himself.
804 - Or he may take heed, and benefit from the message.
805 - As for the rich man.
806 - You gave him your attention.
807 - Even though you could not guarantee his salvation.
808 - The one who came to you eagerly.
809 - And is really reverent.
8010 - You ignored himAllah testifies that this blind person is righteous who couldn?t read. But the abnormal approach condemns this righteous blind man because he relied on believers to learn salat and other rituals.
Reply to number 4
The abnormal approach relies on dictionary to explain the Quran. Therefore, the dictionary is higher than the Quran. In other word the dictionary is full of wisdom! If this was the case then Allah would have given Prophet Muhammad the wisdom to consult the dictionary to obtain meaning of the Quran. Thus he would have been carrying dictionary with him all the time. Therefore, this abnormal approach imply Prophet Muhammad had a second hadith = dictionary.
Sorry for not providing the replies to other questions/inquiry at this time. I have a hectic schedule this week. I will respond to the rest very soon.
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Prophet Muhammad was an Imam. He taught his follower the correct way of performing salat which he learned from Allah. Thus, Prophet Muhammad became an Imam by direct appointment of Allah.
Abu Bakar learned salat from Prophet Muhammad. And people learned salat from him.
This does not mean the rank and responsibilities of Prophet Muhammad and that of Abu Bakar is the same. One has the ability to teach the salat and the other can only learn the salat and pass it on.
If Allah raises an Imam to correct a ritual, he will let you know. At that point you can accept him or reject him. That will be your choice.
Hidden assumption once again. What makes you think there is a way to perform salat. The Quran talked about how to perform wadu, but not salat. There is no mentioning of any talk of how to pray in the Quran or any of the previous scriptures. This is what I meant by hidden assumption in these kind of debates. We are assuming without proof.
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I read u were saying 5 salat with a verse, and u didn't show any verse that speaks clearly about 5 salats
the fajr and isha are mentionned by name in the quranwho did bring down the law of how many times we perform salat and how to do it ? it must be Allah , for he show us how to pray, how do we know? through his book that he sent with prophet mohamed
In the hearafter we're gonna take account about the verses of allah if we followed or abandonned, and in tthe book of god two salats are mentionned without others , who do we believe, what we found our forefathers doing or what is in the book of allah ?
By the way, many think salat is not detailed in the quran, it is actually detailed 100% , just as wudu
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Salaam all,
Abu Bakar learned salat from Prophet Muhammad. And people learned salat from him.
Who is Abu Bakar???
Salaat, the most important ritual was taught to an unknown person by Prophet Mohammed, about whom Allah did say anything? Not even took his name in AlQuraan?
But bukhari know him well I think... from where? sorry I don't know his source.
May Allah open our hearts to understand and accept the truth.
Mohammed M. Khan -
peace,
I thought this is fairly well known amongst members. It's been discussed on the forum. This was actually one of the most disturbing things I have researched in my study of Islam. I recommend anyone to study up on the Kaba structure and the rituals associated with it and you may be shocked to discover they are almost entirely pagan in origin (the shape, its orientation, the cloth over it, the black stone, kissing of it, its position, its enclosure, spinning around it etc), and also the Traditional Hajj rituals. It is argued however that pagans also done them but that's because they corrupted their true meanings and practice and this was corrected/purified by Quran/Muhammad/etc.
This has largely already been done in the works of Ignaz Goldziher, Joseph Schacht, GHA Juynboll, Fazlur Rahman, John Burton, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, John Wansbrough, William Montgomery Watt, Norman Calder, Daniel Brown, Aisha Musa, Sir Sayed Ahmed Khan, Kassim Ahmad, Parwez and many many many more. Taken collectively, these works tear into Traditional Ahadith like you would not believe and give a ton of interesting info, even I was surprised by some of it. There is so much info out there. People really need to spread it.
Here is something that might surprise people, in perhaps the most recent hadith overview book written (2009), Jonathon Brown (regarded as a Traditional Muslim scholar) states "Islamic modernism and its 'Quran only' trend have thrived among Western Muslim scholars" and I don't see that trend slowing anytime soon.
I strongly recommend you read this summary by Herbert Berg
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601291.0Make no mistake about it, this is not about Traditional Islam V Quranists, this is about Traditional Islam V Information Age. Whoever puts the most quality info out there will triumph. In the past, Saudi Arabia with its Wahabi Islam and others who relied on feeding the masses one-sided info to maintain the status quo had the great share of the ouput of info, but in the Information Age with the rise of the internet, the output is turning heavily in our favour.
That is why I urge everyone to keep spreading the info. It is really easy with my practical methods, no experience necessary, just spare-time. If you want to take action, personal message me. If you prefer pipe dreams, dont message me.
Wakas, where di you get that quote by Johnathan Brown about Quranic persuasion spreading
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I have given you the Quranic proof that clearly said Allah taught salat to Imams and we are to learn salat from the Imam. You refuse to accept Allah?s words, you are disregarding Allah?s revelation, you are not taking heed. This is your problem!!
2458 O you with trust! (Not only the "imams"...) Let those whom are under your contract and have not yet attained puberty request your permission regarding three times Before the dawn bond, and when you take off your attire from the heat of the noon, and after the evening bond. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Why would God only mention 2 salat timings here (if there were indeed 5 enjoined on the believers per day)?
Are you saying Abu Bakar mislead us by praying different than Prophet Muhammad OR
Are you saying Uthman mislead us OR
Are you saying Uthman?s follower did it OR
Are you saying his follower did it ORAre you a follower of the quran alone for islam or a follower of Abu Bakr, a follower of a follower of Uthman, etc??!
Five salat timing and salat structure is preserved. Likewise Ramadan and other rituals are preserved as well.
Yes... that's why God bothered to tell us about salat and Ramadan in the quran..
I just identified the categories. You are the one making an issue out of it, giving people the impression that you are a bad thinker. If it does not apply to you then you should not dwell on it.
Allah seals the heart of ill thinking people so that they cannot understand the Quran.I am pretty sure that most, if not all, people here think that you are a bad thinker..
There you go again POM POM lady. I always knew who the Imams were in the verse 2173. And my writing is consistent with the verse. You did not comprehend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is your oxygen deprived brain that equated Imam to some mad man. Bukhari wins big on this one. Bukhari is proud of you. He thanks you.
Can someone create a facepalm emoticon, even if we just have to use it for guest?
Read 436, guest. -
Now available in word text file
www.islam-and-muslims.com/MORNING-EVENING-PRAYERS-EARLY-ISLAM.docx (right click, save as) -
11114 And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night For those things, that are good remove those that are evil Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember.
^^ 3 times a day.
Peace! peace
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There are three prayertimes in the Quran.
#1,#2,#3 i 011.114, 017.078
#1 i 017.079
#1, #2 i 050.039
#1, #3 i 024.058, 030.017, 024.036, 076.025
#2, #3 i 030.018, 038.018
#1, #2, #3, #1, #2 i 020.130 (#1 & #2 is repeated, notice, praise, is repeated.) -
peace HIIS, PU,
Number of salat per day and their timings have been discussed at significant length in previous threads. Most longer term members only regard it as two. Each to their own.
As shown in this thread, even in traditional Muslim history, it was twice per day originally.
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peace HIIS, PU,
Number of salat per day and their timings have been discussed at significant length in previous threads. Most longer term members only regard it as two. Each to their own.
As shown in this thread, even in traditional Muslim history, it was twice per day originally.
Yeah, well, when have traditional Muslims ever been right on everything? The Qur'an says 3 times pretty clearly
