The Night of Decree is the 27th day of the 9th moon: Incontrovertible proof
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Peace Ayman,
Agreed with all your arguments there. It seems they are so engrossed with their code 19 and the traditions (it is always there between their lines), they ignored the Truth even when Truth bites them in the eyes.
I did a little research on Google about seasons and the start of winter? And trying to compare the start of winter in China and Saudi Arabia, so that I could use the Chinese calendar and compare them with the Hijri. Roughly.
This is what I find
Winter starts between December 21st and 22nd in the Northern Hemisphere and between March 20th and 21st in the Southern Hemisphere. Meteorologically, it starts on December 1st and June 1st, respectively. According to the lunisolar calendar, it begins around November 7th.
http//answers.yourdictionary.com/science/units-of-measure/when-does-winter-start.html
Since China and Saudi Arabia are both in the northern hemisphere, basically their seasons start at the same time. Basically the Chinese calendar could be used to determine whether the just finished Ramadan is actually the 9th month. With a little research of the Chinese calendar, this is what I get
http//chinesecalendar.orados.com/english.aspx?d=2010-09-12
The calendar shows today
World
Year 2010
Month September (9th month)
Day 12thChinese
Year The Tiger
Month 8th Lunar month
Day 5th (15th Autumnal Equinox)Hijri
Year 1431
Month Syawal (10th month)
Day 2 (Yawm al-Ithnayn - 2nd day)The difference between the Chinese calendar month and the Hijri calendar month is almost 2 months. These are rough facts which shows the just finish fasting month called Ramadan, could not be the 9th month.
According to the Chinese calendar, the 9th month of this year is next month not last month. According to facts, the differences between the seasons in the northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere is only a day or two. That is between north and south. But a difference of two months in the same hemisphere?
Peace.
tauhid101 -
Selam
In my opinion what ever counting system we use as a calendar must be useful to us. For example, we will need this calendar to conduct our daily lives, plant our crops etc. We will need it to determine the seasons and also know the restricted periods in not hunting certain animals to perserve the population. As a result which ever system we use it will be man made. But that man made system will need to be in sink with natural occuring events, so it is easy for us to conduct our daily affairs. The question we must ask is the lunar calendar able to do this? In my opinion, no. It would be very hard for a farmer for example to follow it in knowing the seasons. I read this post which I found very interesting
"The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year) - so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth...." (Q936).
"It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory, and the moon to be a light of beauty, and measured out stages for it, that you might know the number of years and the count of time. Allah did not create this except in truth and righteousness. And He explains His signs in detail, for those who understand" (Q105).
With the above passages from the Quran, it is clear and confirmed by science that the moon orbits the Earth twelve times during the Earth orbits the sun in approximately 354 days. And mankind observing this phenomena has learned to count days and nights, by observing the moon and the sun, and to formulate a calender system either by lunar, or the solar system.
Either way, man has got a counting device to measure time in days, months and years.
The calender is very useful for mankind to schedule his activities, be it for social, business, agricultural, and since the creation of religion by man himself, it is a tool to mark "holy" days for his paganistic events and rituals.
The Hijrah, was setup for religious rituals purposes, and its inventor, decided to go lunar counting, as opposed to the Christian calender (Gregorian - named after Pope Gregory), which is solar based because this would set them apart from the Christians - to be different. Well, the decision to be different put them side-by-side with the Taoist, Bhuddist, and the Hindus, whom use the lunar system.
Fine, whichever method, solar, or lunar, there is nothing wrong in creating a calender for counting time, but the Hijrah was meant to be strictly followed for religious activities, e.g. prayers, fasting, pilgrimage etc., and this is where the fallacy lies.
As we know it, the Hijrah being lunar, has twelve months, and 29/30 days in a month, and therefore does not apply the 7days/week method as the Gregorian. The names of days correspond to the moon cycle, which is day 1,2,3 - 29/30. This is in fact, the same with all the other lunar calender system, which are being practiced by the Chinese, Indians, etc.
Now, the big religious question is, how did "Holy Friday" get into the Hijrah? There is no Friday in the lunar based Hijrah as there is no 7days/week system! Only the Gregorian has the 7days/week system and Friday is the 5th day of the 7 days/week.
It is very clear now that the holy Friday prayer (Jumaat) is following the Gregorian Friday, and the question is - Is there really a Friday prayer to start with? Nothing is mentioned in the Quran about this! I'm not going to delve into this, but the question is even if there is such a prayer, why is it scheduled on the Gregorian Friday? The answer is simple - they forgot about this when they concocted the Hijrah, and the choice of the lunar method does not allow for the 7days/method to be scientifically incorporated into the Hijrah (full stop)!
Ok, lets say they will argue that there is a day called Friday (5th day) in the Hijrah, then there is only one 5th day in a month, and so it would be a monthly prayer instead of weekly.
Again...ok...they will argue and say that there is a 7day/week system in the Hijrah, then how come it correspond to the Gregorian Friday all the time, whilst it is a fact that the Lunar Hijrah days/months/years never correspond to the Gregorian day/week/month/year. The Hijrah Friday would always fall on other Gregorian days and maybe on certain period it would correspond to the Gregorian Friday, but not every week!
Their fasting month of Ramadan attest to this clearly. Whilst they try hard every Hijrah year to be very accurate in proclaiming the start and end of the fast, they blindly (and unashamedly) remix the Gregorian Friday into the new month every year...if the first day of Ramadan falls on the Gregorian Friday... the first day of Ramadan begins on Friday...then, happily and conveniently - they pray...and fast, of course.
Now, as we look into the history of the Hijrah itself (according to Islamic Hijrah experts), briefly, the first day of the Hijrah correspond to the day Muhammad fled Mecca for Medina circa (mind you approximates only) 622 A.D. Since the date given is 'circa', there's no proof that that event took place on the first day of the new moon! Take note that the Hijrah was not conceptualized until 638 A.D. (approx. again), which means by simple mathematics the Hijrah was invented after 16 years in Medina.
As history has it, Muhammad remained for approximately 10 years in Mecca after the Quran was revealed to him. That means the Hijrah was only incorporated 26 years after Muhammad received the Quran.
The big religious question is - How did Muhammad and his followers perform all the rituals of prayers, fasting, and pilgrimage for 26 years before the Hijrah was invented. The only calender being used then, would be the Julian (now Gregorian), and it certainly seems odd that the so called 'Muslims' perform their rituals according to the Julian calender, as the Quran never make any reference to the Julian/Gregorian months of Jan-Dec, nor the days Mon-Sun ?
Since all the historical dates pertaining to Muhammad are 'circa' based, its difficult to determine if Muhammad was around to witness the implementation of the Hijrah, and whats more with all the events having conflicting 'circa' dates it turns any research on this matter into a mind boggling and futile enterprise. Whichever way one looks at it, whats apparent now is that the Hijrah was established after his demise, because his reign as the messenger supposedly only lasted 20 years!
However, one thing is sure, at least according to the Islamic historians and writers - the Hijrah was initiated by one of the companions, and not Muhammad himself, and that to me is the suggestion that he might not have been around.
In summation...when the tool that is used to schedule events, or rituals is inaccurate, and unreliable then the event/ritual that depends on it becomes questionable, or if it should ever take place? One could expect some explanations on this matter coming from them, but I can assure you it would be nothing more than some mathematical nonsense. It surely is something for the 'Muslims' to think about, and mind you this is year 2007, and they are still fumbling in their religion. Mathematically speaking, the Hijrah calendar, at best could only be labelled as 'Conjecture'.
The above verse (Q105) ends with "...for those who understand", obviously, these people don't understand!
Peace
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Peace Tauhid,
Agreed with all your arguments there. It seems they are so engrossed with their code 19 and the traditions (it is always there between their lines), they ignored the Truth even when Truth bites them in the eyes.
I did a little research on Google about seasons and the start of winter? And trying to compare the start of winter in China and Saudi Arabia, so that I could use the Chinese calendar and compare them with the Hijri. Roughly.17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
How can we determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the longest/shortest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. What people call "start" of winter or summer is actually in nature the winter and summer solstices. The fact that the year is the interval between solstices will always be true. Unlike any manmade calendar, even supposedly solar ones where for example, you have a year with 366 days every 4 years to adjust.
So the next question is which of the two solstices to start the count from? The meaning of "ramadan" as provided by Classical Arabic dictionaries clearly point to the summer solstice. You can see more discussions and details on this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
Also, the following Article in Arabic
http//www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam Ayman and all,
Peace Pierre,
It is not my problem that you ignore that in Arabic there is a difference between dual and plural and that plural is "3 or more", which renders everything that you just said nonsense. If being stupid means that unlike you I know that plural is "three or more" and not "more than three" then I would rather be stupid than be so incredibly smart like you.
Why include the dual in your counts? The only reason is so that you can get to 30, which is not even a real month and no calendar in existence has months with 30 days. So you are falsifying counts to get to what is anyway a false imaginary month.
This is false selective numerology counting to reach a preconceived count by hook or by crook. You arbitrarily included "this day" and the non generic form "in the day" and "to a day", etc. but exclude "that day" ("that" is not a pronoun). You also include the accusative but hypocritically excluded it in other counts such as that of "wahid".
This was not my question. Everything you said is based on Muharam being month 1 in year 1. This is why you are evading to answer my real question. Here it is again
Now tell us how do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?
See if you can answer using your numerology crap.
Peace,
Ayman
In Arabic when we say "We are going to the park." is "We" plural or singular?
Now if Ayman and 1 friend (two people) go to the park are they going to say "I am going to the park" or "We are going to the park."
Now if Ayman claims that "we" is singular not plural, everyone will agree he is a liar.
For the same reason in Arabic there is a plural for two (dual) and for three or more entities Two types of plural.
If Ayman does not admit that, he is a liar (and he doesn't because of his big ego, and because it would force him to admit that Quran is mathematically structured). For this reason the plural "days" occurs 30 times in Quran, taking into account both Arabic plural forms.
Ayman lives in denial that the Quran is a mathematically structured book (365 x "day", 30 x "days", 12 x "month".
How blind can people be in the face of such obvious signs ?! nope30 days is the maximum number of days in a lunar month. Every sincere person knows a lunar month has either 29 or 30 days. If the count for "days" in Quran was 29, then he would object some lunar months have 30 days. What kind of game are you playing Ayman ? You are only fooling yourself and people who are, like you, in complete denial.
Peace.
Pierre
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Salaam Ayman and all,
In Arabic when we say "We are going to the park." is "We" plural or singular?
Now if Ayman and 1 friend (two people) go to the park are they going to say "I am going to the park" or "We are going to the park."
Now if Ayman claims that "we" is singular not plural, everyone will agree he is a liar.
For the same reason in Arabic there is a plural for two (dual) and for three or more entities Two types of plural.
If Ayman does not admit that, he is a liar (and he doesn't because of his big ego, and because it would force him to admit that Quran is mathematically structured). For this reason the plural "days" occurs 30 times in Quran, taking into account both Arabic plural forms.
Ayman lives in denial that the Quran is a mathematically structured book (365 x "day", 30 x "days", 12 x "month".
How blind can people be in the face of such obvious signs ?! nope30 days is the maximum number of days in a lunar month. Every sincere person knows a lunar month has either 29 or 30 days. If the count for "days" in Quran was 29, then he would object some lunar months have 30 days. What kind of game are you playing Ayman ? You are only fooling yourself and people who are, like you, in complete denial.
Peace.
Pierre
30 x 12 is 360, not 365
The moon does its thing every 27. something days, not 29 and not 30, so there can sometimes be 13 new moons in a solar year of 365 days
6619 you need to choose 1 way and stick to it as your arguments are not taking account of any FACTS
In arabic there is DUAL (2) and PLURAL (3+)
a dual ending would be alif nun, a plural ending would be alif taa or waw nun depending on gender, so your 'we are going to the park' you would see the change in the verb 'to go' depending on the gender of those going and not in the 'we' part.
I think -\
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Peace Pierre and Mazhar,
In Arabic when we say "We are going to the park." is "We" plural or singular?
Now if Ayman and 1 friend (two people) go to the park are they going to say "I am going to the park" or "We are going to the park."
Now if Ayman claims that "we" is singular not plural, everyone will agree he is a liar.
For the same reason in Arabic there is a plural for two (dual) and for three or more entities Two types of plural.If you say "you" are going to the park in English is "you" plural or singular? In English there is no difference only in the second person. This doesn't mean that there is no difference in general between singular and plural in English. Same thing in the Arabic only in the first person there is no difference between dual and plural. This doesn't mean that there is no difference in general between dual and plural in Arabic. When it comes to "ayam" and "yawmayn" the first person doesn't even arise and they are definitely different.
The ONLY reason you add the dual is to force the count to come to your imaginary 30 day month. Had the plural count been already 30 then you would have been arguing the exact opposite if I asked you why you didn't include the dual.
You are also unable to address the fact that the count of the singluar form "day" is never 365, as I mentioned previously.
If Ayman does not admit that, he is a liar (and he doesn't because of his big ego, and because it would force him to admit that Quran is mathematically structured). For this reason the plural "days" occurs 30 times in Quran, taking into account both Arabic plural forms.
Ayman lives in denial that the Quran is a mathematically structured book (365 x "day", 30 x "days", 12 x "month".
How blind can people be in the face of such obvious signs ?! nopeAm I "blind" because I don't want to believe you when you say that 365 is 30 x 12 !?? At least the blind can multiply.
30 days is the maximum number of days in a lunar month. Every sincere person knows a lunar month has either 29 or 30 days. If the count for "days" in Quran was 29, then he would object some lunar months have 30 days. What kind of game are you playing Ayman ? You are only fooling yourself and people who are, like you, in complete denial.
Maybe the god is fooling you when he didn't make the lunar cycles 30 days. Do you think that the god is inaccurate and it would have been hard for him to make it 30 days?? You think that your nonsensical code and haphazard selective counting of words is more accurate than the god's system?
This is why neither you or Mazhar will ever be able to answer my questions
How do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?
If you wake up from a coma on a deserted island how would you be able to find your Ramadan based on your Code 19 and/or the lunar and/or solar cycles?
You and Mazhar keep evading as usual, because you are both nothing more than a couple of clueless guys parading their ignorance on a public forum. What benefits people stays and what doesn't benefit them is swept away. Had you been able to answer those two questions, then you would be the heros of Sunnis and 19ers.
Peace,
Ayman
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How do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?
If you wake up from a coma on a deserted island how would you be able to find your Ramadan based on your Code 19 and/or the lunar and/or solar cycles?
Only Aymen could ask such irrelevant rather foolish questions based on ridiculous propositions.
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Only Aymen could ask such irrelevant rather foolish questions based on ridiculous propositions.
No Its not a foolish question, its a very valid question which you cannot answer.
The calendar at the time of Muhammed is not the calendar Islam goes by today, so very rightly one must ask when was the day 1 month 1 calculated from. Quran is not dependant on any of our calendars or months but on the system of Allah, so how would you know ramadan if you had no calendar and no watch? If you cannot answer it then you are saying that ramadan IS dependant on a calendar that is man made, which is how it is worked out now, not how Allah worked it out.
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No Its not a foolish question, its a very valid question which you cannot answer.
These are Mega foolish questions that can only be asked Mega foolish people and supported by Mega foolish people.
The calendar at the time of Muhammed is not the calendar Islam goes by today, so very rightly one must ask when was the day 1 month 1 calculated from.
Where is the evidence of your faulty claim, Pom Pom girl?
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
3224 - We appointed from among them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, because they steadfastly persevered and attained certainty about our revelations.
7179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
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These are Mega foolish questions that can only be asked Mega foolish people and supported by Mega foolish people.
so yu cant answer it either, that's erm, surprising )Where is the evidence of your faulty claim, Pom Pom girl?
Look it up no mind boy, calendars go back a long way and are different depending on what they are based on.2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
3224 - We appointed from among them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, because they steadfastly persevered and attained certainty about our revelations.
7179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
was there a point to this post or was it just to remind us all you're still here not answering anything?
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Common Ayisha.... you are smarter than this.. you are a grown up now.. stop playing in the play-pen with with the kids... you have better things to do for your own soul.. Leave the babies... their gurus... oh sorry.. their moms will take care of them.
yes I know you're right, obvious to anyone it came to poke a stick and not conribute.
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so yu cant answer it either, that's erm, surprising
Answer to the nonsense questions were provided in the ?Hot/"ramadan" Answer? thread including a challenge which your (and WayFinder?s) master Ayman refused to accept. Thus exposing the falsehood and fakeness. The ?Hot Ramadan? article has no head or tail. It is absolutely the best example of ?no no?. It is the worst known article in the history of mankind. And who else would follow it other than you and WayFinder?
Look it up no mind boy, calendars go back a long way and are different depending on what they are based on.
I have looked everywhere where sun shines but found no such evidence. You must be getting it out of where sun never shines.
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No Its not a foolish question, its a very valid question which you cannot answer.
The calendar at the time of Muhammed is not the calendar Islam goes by today, so very rightly one must ask when was the day 1 month 1 calculated from. Quran is not dependant on any of our calendars or months but on the system of Allah, so how would you know ramadan if you had no calendar and no watch? If you cannot answer it then you are saying that ramadan IS dependant on a calendar that is man made, which is how it is worked out now, not how Allah worked it out.
What a correct observation
These are Mega foolish questions that can only be asked Mega foolish people and supported by Mega foolish people.
Are the phases of moon measured by watches?
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Quote
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.3224 - We appointed from among them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, because they steadfastly persevered and attained certainty about our revelations.
7179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
was there a point to this post or was it just to remind us all you're still here not answering anything?
You seem to be at a lost whenever straight forward Quranic verses are quoted. You fail to grasp the meaning of it in the context of the discussion at hand. But you rejoice whenever someone twist the meaning of a verse and produce a devilish interpretation to it. You leave crystal clear evidence of it in your writing. The latest example being in the Dr. Qamar's Haqeeqat...thread ?Downloaded both and have read introduction only on fasting. I like this guy already, thanks mubashir55. will let you know how i get on with the rest.? Even a mentally retard person would show a better understanding than him. And you love him!!!
Now I will give you the the reasons (baby steps) for citing those verses
2173 tells us that we are to learn salat, zakat, and other religious rites from imam. And you and people like you would violate this verse and say we know better than the imams we will tell you how to perform salat and other religious rite. We have the master book ?root meaning dictionary? where we find all the explanation of the Quranic verses. Even though the Quran does not say that you will learn salat from the Quran, our root meaning dictionary override the Quran and says this is it.
With your approach you would have argued with Prophet Muhammad regarding salat and other rites if you were living at that time. You would have said to Prophet Muhammad that he was doing the salat wrong because the Quran does not tell us to do it this way. And your timing is wrong as well, you shall perform salat 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ....times a day.
And if you were living after prophet Muhammad died (within 30 years or so), you would have said the same thing to the follower of Prophet Muhammad who has learned to perform salat from Prophet Muhammad.
This is the absurdity you and your friends are propagating here. You can never succeed.
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How would you know it is the ninth moon?
With this question he implying the following
- Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did not know when the ninth moon was i.e. when the Ramadan is.
- For certain, Prophet Muhammad knew when the Ramadan month was and the night of destiny
- WayFinder wants us to believe that Prophet Muhammad did not know it and hence his follower did not know it. Otherwise why would he ask such a foolish question.
- The reference point has been established by Prophet Muhammad which has been propagated to us via continuity and blessings of Allah
- Only the wicked people will disregard the truth.