Are we hated or just discriminated
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Look, to a mainstream muslim we would be apostates I think. We the Quranists reject I think about four and a half thousand instructions. Wich is i think an aproximate number of the hadiths.
Emil, I think that that is preaty much a diferent religion. Especialy if you say liberal Koranist muslim, than its nothing like the mainstream.
So I think that its a good think that you are introducing people to Quranist Islam and if someone was to understand then I supose he/she would emrace it.
Once I was at this uniting church bible study over here in Melbourne and the minister said preaty much that he is a christian because his parents were and they all agreed that they don't know wich religion is the true one. Actualy this minister was very liberal and he just about rejected half the bible.
To be continued....
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continuation of previous post... Can someone fix it so that I don't have to post twice same post please?
Ok so there are probably many muslims who are the same but would never admit that thats the case because they would be rejected by their friends and maybe family. And in some instances maybe even tried for apostazy.
What I am saying is that not everyone is capable of breaking his/her own tradition and going with what he/she truly believes.
When I was a practising suni muslim years ago I used to wander is christianity maybe the right religion since I had christian friends.
However now that I have come acros this new knowledge of how the hadith were recorded and how the Quran can be interpreted diferently like were it talks about theft I am truly comfortable and I do truly believe in this and I must say that I am very grateful to all of you and to God for showing me diferent options.
Thanks
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Look, to a mainstream muslim we would be apostates I think. We the Quranists reject I think about four and a half thousand instructions. Wich is i think an aproximate number of the hadiths.
I would agree with that. In the last couple of days, since I last posted I've had a couple of really concerning things happen...I'm not too sure about telling anyone now. I just don't know if I have the stomach for the hate to be honest. &
I've been told that if I don't accept sunnah/hadith then I don't accept Islam. In a small town the ramifications for me could be huge. I already don't fit with the non-Muslims, aside from the few who are among my close friends - now I feel on the brink of being outed from the Muslim community. '( It has already happened with another group of Muslims here. I'm sorry, my knowledge isn't very good but they believe that there was another guide/messenger after Muhammad. When these couple of families first moved to town they were invited to things like iftars; soon after they were ''outed". Nobody really speaks to them!
The last few days I feel afraid (not for my life lol - then again, I'm fortunate that I live here) but I feel I'm heading for a life of lonliness (as someone mentioned), argument, gossip etc.
Pel said "there are probably many muslims who are the same but would never admit that thats the case because they would be rejected by their friends and maybe family."
Yes, I'm sure that is quite true. It's comforting to think that but it makes me feel that perhaps I should refrain from saying openly what I really think to my friends here so that I can keep the status quo for a bit longer. In terms of my husband though I can't not say anything - I can see there is no way in this world that we will be able to live and manage together if he believes stongly in hadith and I don't (I'm not going to take many hadith laying down...I'm just not). We are going to have to meet in the middle somewhere and in order to do that I have speak about my beliefs.
Wow, this post was so timely.
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What did I do wrong? Do they hate us that much? I have been verbally abused in the mosque and banned from the one in the neighbourhood, but that has been very local, very man-to-man......this was the first time when I was faced with a national outcry to have us banned from islam.....
Feel sad, need a hugEmil I'm sorry to hear of your experience.
I'm not surprised at all though sadly. It's my experience also that believers in hadith as a rule simply cannot abide by hadith rejectors - they are SO SURE that Quran tells them to follow hadith (by saying follow the Prophet) that you can't even discuss without causing ripples, let alone argue.
I recently left a forum before I could get outed. That pretty much sealed the deal for me - it was like a final straw that made me realise I can't go on trying to believe this stuff. On the forum someone had posted (and I think I've mentioned this on here before, so excuse me for repeating myself) regarding women who leave Islam. Mostly they were talking abut converts of course. Well, I couldn't help getting involved in that - I really felt I had something to offer as I am a convert and I can understand how women might leave.
On the forum I mentioned things like the fact that before conversion you read so much about how easy it is to live as a muslim, so good and so easy. Then of course the reality is another thing altogether - you end up worrying over every little detail like which foot you enter the toilet with Also there is so much pressure because you often face problems from relatives & friends who are non-Muslim and the non-Muslim community in general. Plus in addition you have to try and fit in with your new Muslim communtiy, trying to understand what is culture, what is Islam etc.
I also mentioned to them that often when you begin to find things hard it seems that Muslims aren't supportive - they don't answer your questions, they put it all down to lack of faith, they blame it on women who convert to Islam because of marriage and say they weren't really sincere and more.
Well almost nobody responded, only a couple of people. I felt the chill immediately. But there were plenty of posts from women saying the exact things I mentioned above - that these women who leave do so because they weren't sincere, they don't have strong enough faith, they quote that passage from Quran about not being tested. I responded again to say when someone starts to have doubts and problems and maybe their practice slips that this is perhaps not the right time for them to be greeted with judgements of ''lack of faith" etc etc etc. Maybe that is the time for being helpful, tolerant, staying friends with them so they don't feel even more ostracised than they already do. Hardly anyone was interested in that though. There is a fear that doubt is so catching - the moment it comes up all the girls go running.
I left for two reasons I felt I would soon be ejected and I felt absolutely sickened by the attitudes there.
It's a jungle out there.
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"Hypocratic it is....they complain that non-muslims think they are oppressors of women, but they themselves don't know the difference between a QA and a Rashad Khalifa committer.... Feel sad, need a hug"
Well, I am sorry to say that you will not get my hug
As it seems you are not much different than those who kicked you out, since you appear to justify discrimination and hatred against people whom you call "Rashad Khalifa committer."
Second, Rashad Khalifa whom many of the Quran Alone people enjoy bashing was behind many of the ideas they come to accept.
Third, I am not a "Rashad Khalifa committer!" as you are not a "Muhammad committer." BTW, where did you find this word "committer"? hmm
Peace,
Edip -
Thank you all for your hugs, warms my heart.
I know we all have received harsh words whenever we "show" ourselves to a mainstream group. In one way I understand them because just like us, they have people joining their forums telling them that they are wrong and also using harsh words against them. I understand that they are tired of people trolling on their websites.... We can be harsh against them too peace
What saddened me was two things
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The angry words started coming when I tried to a brother who had been confronted by non-muslims. He even wrote "Please Help!!!"... I didn't try to convert him, just give advice. The brother's thread was old and nobody had bothered to answer him so I thought I would help him since nobody else did..... It seems that whenever a mainstream has problems understanding a verse, a "normal" mainstream doesnt dare help him. No, you must be a scholar or Imam to interpret verses.....the average muslim joe or jane is not allowed to express his or her opinion.....totally nuts.
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The people who seemed to be most angry were converts.......It seems everybody must respect their choice to convert to islam but they don't have that obligation to others. That really scares me.
Anyways, I checked my mailbox this morning and I had received many mails asking me to explain more about QA. These mails were of course private and not public on the forum.....All of them from born muslims and most of them from sisters......No, not because I am sooo sexy and cool, but more because they are getting fed up with being controlled and subdued by their men.
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"Hypocratic it is....they complain that non-muslims think they are oppressors of women, but they themselves don't know the difference between a QA and a Rashad Khalifa committer.... Feel sad, need a hug"
Well, I am sorry to say that you will not get my hug (
As it seems you are not much different than those who kicked you out, since you appear to justify discrimination and hatred against people whom you call "Rashad Khalifa committer."
Second, Rashad Khalifa whom many of the Quran Alone people enjoy bashing was behind many of the ideas they come to accept.
Third, I am not a "Rashad Khalifa committer!" as you are not a "Muhammad committer." BTW, where did you find this word "committer"? hmm
Peace,
EdipDear Edip
You don't need to hug me if you don't want. '(
To justify discrimination and hatred towards Rashad Khalifa committers are your words, not mine. My comparison between a muslim's complaints that non-muslims tend to see islam as oppressing women and the mainstream muslim's tendency to see QA = Rashad Kahlifa does not in any way give evidence of what or how I feel about Rashad Khalifa. I am simply pointing out the fact that they too judge without knowledge.
19 was the first I stumbled on when searching for an alternative to mainstream. I thought "Wow!", this is great stuff! But then I started to get a little uneasy when I read about taking out verses from the Quran and that mr.Khalifa's translation of the Quran was not entirely correct.....That made me search further and found you, Edip and the likes of you. And not forgetting dr Shabbir either.
You want my opinion of Rashad Khalifa? Fine, I think he was very important to the progressive muslim, I see him as a martyr. Do I like deleting verses and using mathematics to justify and verify Allah's word? NO.
I don't "bash" 19....I got nothing against them, on the contrary, I see them as us, not them......but it must be said, a QA like me will not use 19 to understand the Quran.
As almost all of us here have a second language, sometimes words have different meanings. In my language, a "follower" implies that you are a sheep, not having a real opinion. You cannot even use that word when describing somebody's religious beliefs, it is more used to describe a hooligan or a member of a fascist/nazi party. Sorry for the confusion, I realize now that the word committer doesnt even exist in english, or does it?
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Anyways, I checked my mailbox this morning and I had received many mails asking me to explain more about QA. These mails were of course private and not public on the forum.....All of them from born muslims and most of them from sisters......No, not because I am sooo sexy and cool, but more because they are getting fed up with being controlled and subdued by their men.
Well, this is an exciting development, isn't it?
It's easy to forget that internet message boards aren't like real life meetings. I guess the real impact of many discussions isn't so much about changing the position of the person you are debating, but rather what goes on in the minds of the lurkers. -
Dear Brothers and Sisters
Today I joined a swedish muslim forum in hope that I would be able to maybe straighten some distorted views what Quran Alone is all about. I introduced myself and said that I was a "Koranist" and if anyone wanted to ask me about the religious belief of someone such as me I would be there and answer any question. I stressed the point that there IS a difference between 19 (Rashad Khalifa committer) and AQ..
Then I went on and answered a question asked by a mainstream muslim brother who needed help. Somebody had challenged him by saying "If the Quran is error-free, then how come Surah 675 and 376-8 is not scientifically correct???
675 And We have adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and We made it with projectiles against the devils; and We prepared for them the retribution of the blazing Fire.
37 6-8 We have adorned the lower heaven with the decoration of planets.
And to guard against every rebellious devil.
They cannot listen to the command up high; and they are bombarded from every side.I answered him that perhaps these verses were not "scientific" but written in an allegorical way. Just because the Quran mentions something "scientific" it doesnt mean it has to be "scientific". I mean, Muhammed Ali's right hook was "faster than lightning" doesn't REALLY mean that it was actually faster than lightning..... I referred him to 37, where in the Swedish version of the Quran, the word "similar" is intepreted as "figurately speaking".
He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say We believe in it, all is from our Lord. And none will remember except those who possess intelligence.
I gave him "ammo" to defend his belief against those who questioned it...........
After a few hours I checked the forum......And Oh My God!!! There was an general outcry to ban me from the forum and in the future not to allow anybody who could be stamped as a Rashad Khalifa follower, a 19, a quraninyoon, submitter......The moderator stepped in and said "look, this guy has not done anything wrong but I will help you to form a policy so we can get rid of this "sect" from the forum".
What did I do wrong? Do they hate us that much? I have been verbally abused in the mosque and banned from the one in the neighbourhood, but that has been very local, very man-to-man......this was the first time when I was faced with a national outcry to have us banned from islam.....
Hypocratic it is....they complain that non-muslims think they are oppressors of women, but they themselves don't know the difference between a QA and a Rashad Khalifa committer....
Feel sad, need a hug
Peace,
Respect.Welcome to the club, brother.
group handshake
Same here, same here.
I was banned from the sunni forum, from two mosques and wahabis keep threatning me and saying it is dangerous to ditch sunnah and hadeeth.
They simply cannot and will not abandon the books for qwhich they believe are the words of the prophet/messenger Mohammad and nothing and no one will ever convince them otherwise. God knows best.You might have made a mistake when you immediately said who you are, when you said you are a Quranist, which in their eyes was a threat and also an opposition, becuase they see people who abandon sunnah and hadeeth as enemies of the prophet. Just like 19ers see me as an enemy for abandoning the appendix and RK. My fiancee dumped me for not accepting RK and same thing is happening with sunnis. They see the sunnah and hadeeth as The Qur'an and in some cases even bigger and holier.
All I can tell you is this. You are brave and very courages for this scene and God bless you for being honest and sincere with them. Keep up the good job, brother. However, if you want, now try a different approach. Introduce yourself as a muslim and just go with the flow, go with them and talk. When someone/anyone asks a question, you answer best to your knowledge and according to The Qur'an.
For example when someone asks if it is true that thieves must have their hands cut off, answer what Qur'an says.
I did the same on another forum and I believe that non-muslims there who keep attacking Islam, Qur'an and muslims see the difference, God willing and will react sometime in the future, God knows best.On this forum > http//www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam
I have made several friends and also The Best Friend, Thank God.My Message to you, brother > Be Yourself. jedi
group handshake
God bless you and stay cool.
Peace. -
Peace,
Respect.Welcome to the club, brother.
group handshake
Same here, same here.
I was banned from the sunni forum, from two mosques and wahabis keep threatning me and saying it is dangerous to ditch sunnah and hadeeth.
They simply cannot and will not abandon the books for qwhich they believe are the words of the prophet/messenger Mohammad and nothing and no one will ever convince them otherwise. God knows best.You might have made a mistake when you immediately said who you are, when you said you are a Quranist, which in their eyes was a threat and also an opposition, becuase they see people who abandon sunnah and hadeeth as enemies of the prophet. Just like 19ers see me as an enemy for abandoning the appendix and RK. My fiancee dumped me for not accepting RK and same thing is happening with sunnis. They see the sunnah and hadeeth as The Qur'an and in some cases even bigger and holier.
well it's how people become, due to suppression of knowledge, so their perception becomes limited too,
except that in some people's cases, they are willing to fight, even kill anyone who thinks/believes differentlyhttp//www.youtube.com/watch?v=711KIILYBdo&feature=related
just watch first 2min... (or everything if you have the time) -
wahabis keep threatning me and saying it is dangerous to ditch sunnah and hadeeth.
They simply cannot and will not abandon the books for qwhich they believe are the words of the prophet/messenger Mohammad and nothing and no one will ever convince them otherwise. God knows best.
Of course, because Wahhabism is a cult, and a cult follows certain mechanisms to assure power over the masses.
The complexity of ahadeeth, the countless silly rules derived from them are an important instrument to keep the believers under control. If you are constantly worrying about the most trivial aspects in your life ? whether it is haram to pluck your eyebrows, with which foot to enter the bathroom first, how long your beard has to be etc. pp. ? you have neither the time nor the energy, much less the confidence to develop your own understanding of faith, and you will not dare to use your own brain and heart in order to communicate with God. Instead you rely on scholars to tell you what to do; and that's exactly the purpose of all that.
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The complexity of ahadeeth, the countless silly rules derived from them are an important instrument to keep the believers under control. If you are constantly worrying about the most trivial aspects in your life ? whether it is haram to pluck your eyebrows, with which foot to enter the bathroom first, how long your beard has to be etc. pp. ? you have neither the time nor the energy, much less the confidence to develop your own understanding of faith, and you will not dare to use your own brain and heart in order to communicate with God. Instead you rely on scholars to tell you what to do; and that's exactly the purpose of all that.
Beautifully put Leyna. bravo bravo The time spent agonizing over these things is incredible.
Then there are the more serious aspects - stoning is a classic example. I don't feel I need that treat to prevent myself from doing it, but I think that temptation can happen to anybody given the right situation. What if it was me, what if it was someone I know. What if I did nothing and was accused and falsely tried as has happened many times...no thank you. It actually makes me sick to think that some people I know are supporters of this.
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Of course, because Wahhabism is a cult, and a cult follows certain mechanisms to assure power over the masses.
The complexity of ahadeeth, the countless silly rules derived from them are an important instrument to keep the believers under control. If you are constantly worrying about the most trivial aspects in your life ? whether it is haram to pluck your eyebrows, with which foot to enter the bathroom first, how long your beard has to be etc. pp. ? you have neither the time nor the energy, much less the confidence to develop your own understanding of faith, and you will not dare to use your own brain and heart in order to communicate with God. Instead you rely on scholars to tell you what to do; and that's exactly the purpose of all that.
Peace,
Respect.Truly oustanding response, beautiful.
I see wahabees as borg, sometimes, not always, there are some who are peacful but most of them seem like borg.
It's a truly sad state they are in.May God gudie us all The Straight Path, inshaAllah.
Peace. pr
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Of course, because Wahhabism is a cult, and a cult follows certain mechanisms to assure power over the masses.
The complexity of ahadeeth, the countless silly rules derived from them are an important instrument to keep the believers under control. If you are constantly worrying about the most trivial aspects in your life ? whether it is haram to pluck your eyebrows, with which foot to enter the bathroom first, how long your beard has to be etc. pp. ? you have neither the time nor the energy, much less the confidence to develop your own understanding of faith, and you will not dare to use your own brain and heart in order to communicate with God. Instead you rely on scholars to tell you what to do; and that's exactly the purpose of all that.
And that's why in a war, one has no choice but to become a scholar and strive harder than those who strive against the god.
It is written/ordered on you the fighting/killing, and it is hated to you and maybe/perhaps you hate a thing and it is best/good to you, and maybe/perhaps you like/love a thing and it is bad/evil to you, and God knows, and you do not know.
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=216
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Pel said "there are probably many muslims who are the same but would never admit that thats the case because they would be rejected by their friends and maybe family."
Yes, I'm sure that is quite true. It's comforting to think that but it makes me feel that perhaps I should refrain from saying openly what I really think to my friends here so that I can keep the status quo for a bit longer. In terms of my husband though I can't not say anything - I can see there is no way in this world that we will be able to live and manage together if he believes stongly in hadith and I don't (I'm not going to take many hadith laying down...I'm just not). We are going to have to meet in the middle somewhere and in order to do that I have speak about my beliefs.
Same here ... I think IRL the only Muslim who knows about my real views on the hadiths is my husband. His family doesn't know, and I won't bring it up because of how narrow-minded they are. At first my husband was terribly angered about me questioning the hadiths, but he's calmed down and I don't bring it up unless there's something he says is in the Qur'an but it's actually from the hadiths. I've been working on reading verses about certain topics so that if a discussion comes up I can refer to what the Qur'an says easily. At least my husband isn't a sunnah-crazy person. D