Modesty and Women in Islam
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Peace
Interesting and very good topic, the question "what is modest" may sound easy but in fact it is very complex.
I am of the stern belief that Allah meant for us to look inside ourselves instead of on the clothes we are wearing. As a man, the highest level of interpretation of 2430 I can reach is when I can look at a completely stark naked woman and still see her as a person. Am I allowed to think she is beautiful, yeah sure, but if I am to feel "impure" thoughts coming on, then I should turn away and not look at her until I am able to see her as a person, not a body. We should strive to see eachother for who we are, not what....bit of a clich?, but true.
The latter part of 2430 is so obvious that it doesn't even have to be addressed....don't show your pecker off...Excluding the most private part, I am not to cover up to protect my modesty or "spare" people from having to look at me. If I am wearing the wrong clothes for the occassion, speedos to a black tie dinner for example, well that is a totally different thing.....then I am just an idiot...
It is generally wrong to use clothes to enhance or decrease morality/modesty. I personally don't see the difference between a skimpy little dress or a hijab if they are used to send out signals. Ayisha and Leyna, are you going to hang me from the nearest tree now?
as a beacon of light dear bro, spot on.
I don't wear hijab any more, I did for almost 7 years. I still dress modestly though, pretty much the same as rashidala said in long sleeves and pants or long skirts. I don't do figure hugging things but that's how I am. Certianly here in Egypt you will see the young girls wearing the hijab with clothes so tight they need to be sprayed on and the 'walk' which enhances the bum. ;D
But you are right in saying that the men should be able to see a naked woman and NOT think of her as an object of desire, if he does then he has not got there yet. There are more girls here in hijab sending out signals to men than I do by not wearing hijab.When it comes to women and their modesty, it would be grossly wrong of me to have an opinion because I am not a woman. Like I said, my "job" is to look inside myself and fight with my own immorality, try to be as modest as I can. What ever others do, that is what they do....
spot on too!
I feel modesty is to not make a display of yourself, not to be shouting in the street, be polite, not giving men the eye as you walk past and that sort of thing. There are many ways to dress modestly without wearing long sleeves and long skirts though. When I worked in a uni I wore a white shirt and a black skirt to below the knee, that was modest dress too IMHO but there are still women who can make that look not so modest too. It all depends on the person themselves in the end.
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But you are right in saying that the men should be able to see a naked woman and NOT think of her as an object of desire, if he does then he has not got there yet. There are more girls here in hijab sending out signals to men than I do by not wearing hijab.
Peace,
Respect.I agree with this one. I can look at a naked woman and stay calm&cool about it. I believe - God knows Best - I have disciplined myself. Thank God.
Peace.
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Hijab or Niqab does not equal modesty. Islam finds itself as a religion which is both orthodox (a set of beliefs) and orthopraxic (a set of activities) that make it the complete deen. I know, Astaghfurillah, that there are sisters who wear hijab, yet their hearts are impure. A woman wearing next to nothing in an island community, can be just as modest as a woman wearing niqab for the right reasons.
Yet, my point was not to say that hijab makes one proper. What I was going for the heart of, was if Allah, Subhanu Wa Ta'Ala, is pleased with certain deeds (modesty being a sign of Iman) then we should seek to emulate them. Say, a sister is pure of niyaah inside and out.. yet, she seeks to do more (we should all be seeking to strive that much harder in the deen, as I aforementioned) then we can point her to wearing Hijab. In the states, wearing hijab, more often than not, serves as a great da'wah opportunity.
I do not have to wear a kufi and long white clothing to be muslim. Alhamdulillah, the deen is easy by the grace of Ar Rahman. Yet, it is a great da'wah opportunity for me as well. I stand out and this naturally invites the curiosity of those around me. Sure, there can be some negative reactions in other cities by the smaller minded, but in my years in this deen, I have found more genuine interest than scorn.
I thank those for their opinions and I wish all the best, Insha'Allah.
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I personally believe modesty lies in how I behave and represent myself. I can wear the headscarf and not-too-tight clothes, and yet still be sexually attractive, if I use my gestures to "send out signals", as Bro Emil has put it. Anyway, I find it in many occasions that 2431 works wonder in shunning unwanted attention. When I find some guys "oogling", I just lower my gaze and most of the time, guys will get the "I am not interested" signal and back off.
That being said, I try to dress by taking into account the social values and modesty standards of the environment where I live in. The absolute modesty limit prescribed in the Qur'an is to cover my breast and private parts, so I'll have to say goodbye to clothes with low neckline. Then I will use my reasoning as to how I should dress according to my environment. I live in Australia, so I figure that short-sleeved top and jeans will be okay, and most will not find that sexual. The most I will push it is sleeveless and knee-length skirt (which will be rare, unless the temperature hits 40 degree). If I go to any Southeast Asian countries, then I will set my limit to long-sleeve top and long pants/skirts, because that is what is considered modest over there. But if I go to any Middle Eastern countries, then I will wear the hijab or maybe even niqab if that is what equates modesty for women.
As a woman, I know well what my intention is when I dress. Surely, I know it is immodest to walk around the street in strapless top and a mini skirt (cause most of the time it will turn people's heads). Anyway, I'd love to think I can still dress to look beautiful, but not sexually attractive (but then again, I don't know what men's opinions are).
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I personally believe modesty lies in how I behave and represent myself. I can wear the headscarf and not-too-tight clothes, and yet still be sexually attractive, if I use my gestures to "send out signals", as Bro Emil has put it. Anyway, I find it in many occasions that 2431 works wonder in shunning unwanted attention. When I find some guys "oogling", I just lower my gaze and most of the time, guys will get the "I am not interested" signal and back off.
That being said, I try to dress by taking into account the social values and modesty standards of the environment where I live in. The absolute modesty limit prescribed in the Qur'an is to cover my breast and private parts, so I'll have to say goodbye to clothes with low neckline. Then I will use my reasoning as to how I should dress according to my environment. I live in Australia, so I figure that short-sleeved top and jeans will be okay, and most will not find that sexual. The most I will push it is sleeveless and knee-length skirt (which will be rare, unless the temperature hits 40 degree). If I go to any Southeast Asian countries, then I will set my limit to long-sleeve top and long pants/skirts, because that is what is considered modest over there. But if I go to any Middle Eastern countries, then I will wear the hijab or maybe even niqab if that is what equates modesty for women.
As a woman, I know well what my intention is when I dress. Surely, I know it is immodest to walk around the street in strapless top and a mini skirt (cause most of the time it will turn people's heads). Anyway, I'd love to think I can still dress to look beautiful, but not sexually attractive (but then again, I don't know what men's opinions are).
this makes total sense to me, and i'm the same way...although i stick to long sleeves and jeans.
oh, and i should add...i wore the hijab for over 8 years. at the time i put it on, i truly felt it was required of me because everyone told me it was. i started struggling with it when i got pregnant with my fourth daughter...i found it bothersome and hot. i know that sounds petty, but i'm being honest. i kept it on for 6 more years and two more daughters...yes, i have six daughters, lol...and i decided just over a month ago that i need to choose between fulfilling others' ideas of what is required of me or being happy and fulfilling what Allah requires of me through His book. i removed the hijab and i have to say i'm a much happier, devoted person since. the hijab had become a source of anger for me and that wasn't healthy.
luckily my husband is supportive and understanding...some others? not so much, but that's their problem.
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What I am seeing here, is that the women here, may Allah bless them, are using the hijab as a certain type of symbol. Something to distance themself with.
Would we have the same opinion about a miswak? Or what brand of toothpaste we use?
We should be conformed to the Qur'an. Not making the Qur'an give us permissiveness to do as we see fit. Granted, the Qur'an does not say wear hijab. I am of the opinion, that in the arabic, there is a precedent for it. Yet, I am not going to force it. More a personal opinion that I can keep there.
I respect the sister saying she felt better when she stopped wearing hijab. I mean you no disrespect. Yet, it was not the hijab, but what it meant to her. To me, this is a psychological issue and has nothing to do with exegesis with Qu'ranic passages.
Another of the reasons I am no longer a christian, was people who wanted the bible to give them permission to do something. A holy book is meant to guide us and inform our life, not because we think it is politically inconvenient or old fashioned.
Let me try another illustration. Let us say you arrived in a culture that believed in women doing all that was stereotypically male.. rude behavior, bravado and profanity. (just follow me here.. lol). Male and female were both of this behavior and no one questioned it. You arrive, as a practicing muslim.. wherein, women are respected, protected and cherished. They are modest and soft of speech. After a few years, the collective peer pressure will soon make her question the wisdom of her entire being.
I think the hijab is a symbol, yes. In today's world, it identifies one as a muslim. We should use that as a means for da'wah and as a silent expression of our commitment to our deen. Same with some brothers who chose to shave their beard or wear jeans and a tshirt. We are to not emulate those who are unbelievers.
I am not trying to argue, and I truly have enjoyed the discussion going on here. Alhamdulillah.
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Brother Rashidala
I have a question, not meant to challenge but it is more of a curious question....
Why would like to be identified as a muslim?
You ARE a muslim, no doubt about it, and you are very brave, not many people here (me included) have the guts to use a picture of themselves as profile pic.
My outer exterior is probably the furthest away from the muslim. I am covered in tattoos, clean shaven....If you saw me you would probably ask me where I parked my Harley...but I am still a muslim, and even though people cannot physically see I am a muslim that they can still see the way I protect my family, love my wife, respect my parents and kindness towards my neigbours.Let me try another illustration. Let us say you arrived in a culture that believed in women doing all that was stereotypically male.. rude behavior, bravado and profanity. (just follow me here.. lol). Male and female were both of this behavior and no one questioned it. You arrive, as a practicing muslim.. wherein, women are respected, protected and cherished. They are modest and soft of speech. After a few years, the collective peer pressure will soon make her question the wisdom of her entire being.
I understand what you mean, but I think your illustration cannot be a general view of every culture? Got an example for you from my life. I am a sailor. On the vessels I work there are a lot of men but also women. If the women would act and speak in a way that could be considered "good" muslimah they wouldn't survive many minutes. Their personality would not fit the community on the vessel and would create a probable breakdown of the social structure. Having a "womanly" woman by your side in a storm does not exactly help you, it is more of a burden. So the female sailor develops a very hard exterior and can speak, walk, and talk the way a sailor does. Does that mean that they are "bad to the bone"? Does it mean that peer pressure or the society will change their modesty? No, of course not.
If the male sailor would act towards a female sailor the way he would act towards a woman at home, his wife or sister, the social structure of the ship would also break down. A sailor cannot change his manners towards another because of difference in gender, it doesn't work.....He needs to see a sailor, not the woman. -
I think the hijab is a symbol, yes. In today's world, it identifies one as a muslim. We should use that as a means for da'wah and as a silent expression of our commitment to our deen. Same with some brothers who chose to shave their beard or wear jeans and a tshirt. We are to not emulate those who are unbelievers.
When I tries to fit in as a sunni, I rocked the beard and the kufi. I didn't do this in order to outwardly emulate the prophet - this seemed like a silly concept - but rather to "look the part" as it were. As a clean shaven white guy in a baseball hat I simply wasn't accepted in the same way, so I got all dolled up to fit in better with the brothers.
If there was a clear Quranic command from the God stating how we should dress and grow/cut our hair I'd be the first to follow it. Since this isn't the case, I'll go with practical. It just so happens that the baseball hat is superior to the kufi for a bespectacled believer like myself. I don't like jeans, as I find them somewhat restrictive during prostration. I sport a full beard because I like it, but I'll trim it before it gets long enough to interfere with the jacket zipper. As for women and hijab, it seems to be an impractical garment. I'd be a huge hypocrite if I were to apply other different standards to sisters than I do for myself.
As for "not emulating unbelievers", I think that opens up for some bizarre consequences if taken far enough. Where do you draw the line? I'd rather say we should avoid doing the bad things the unbelievers do, while accepting and enjoying the good. It's better to ride bicycles than camels in this day and age.
Still, I kind of like being able to identify other believers at a cursory glance, and having them make me out similarly. Salaaming strangers in the street can be nice. Then again, I feel a little hypocritical wearing the sunni garb, as I know many (most?) brothers and sisters would hate me should I be honest about my beliefs. -\
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I personally believe modesty lies in how I behave and represent myself. I can wear the headscarf and not-too-tight clothes, and yet still be sexually attractive, if I use my gestures to "send out signals", as Bro Emil has put it. Anyway, I find it in many occasions that 2431 works wonder in shunning unwanted attention. When I find some guys "oogling", I just lower my gaze and most of the time, guys will get the "I am not interested" signal and back off.
That being said, I try to dress by taking into account the social values and modesty standards of the environment where I live in. The absolute modesty limit prescribed in the Qur'an is to cover my breast and private parts, so I'll have to say goodbye to clothes with low neckline. Then I will use my reasoning as to how I should dress according to my environment. I live in Australia, so I figure that short-sleeved top and jeans will be okay, and most will not find that sexual. The most I will push it is sleeveless and knee-length skirt (which will be rare, unless the temperature hits 40 degree). If I go to any Southeast Asian countries, then I will set my limit to long-sleeve top and long pants/skirts, because that is what is considered modest over there. But if I go to any Middle Eastern countries, then I will wear the hijab or maybe even niqab if that is what equates modesty for women.
As a woman, I know well what my intention is when I dress. Surely, I know it is immodest to walk around the street in strapless top and a mini skirt (cause most of the time it will turn people's heads). Anyway, I'd love to think I can still dress to look beautiful, but not sexually attractive (but then again, I don't know what men's opinions are).
I completely agree with you. I lived in Australia for almost five years and what is considered modest is completely different then what we abide to here in Egypt. I noticed in Australia that men there don't look at you at all if you are wearing jeans and a short sleeved shirt, whereas in Egypt you would definitely get a lot of looks for that kind of dress. That's why I pretty much bought a new wardrobe when I moved back here. I didn't wear the veil and don't plan to, but I try to dress in long sleeves and baggy clothes as much as possible. And to be quite honest, I feel better, because I feel like I get lost in the crowd.
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Brother Rashidala
I have a question, not meant to challenge but it is more of a curious question....
Why would like to be identified as a muslim?
You ARE a muslim, no doubt about it, and you are very brave, not many people here (me included) have the guts to use a picture of themselves as profile pic.
My outer exterior is probably the furthest away from the muslim. I am covered in tattoos, clean shaven....
me too bro laughI agree though, why would one need to make the effort to be identified as a muslim? I did in my early days in UK and bro rashidala is right I had people wanting to know and understand what it was all about, especially as 911 still had the dust settling. Here in Egypt thought wearing hijab made me blend in a little but I am still a white woman and in this heat I am a red faced white woman with streaks of sweat. It identified me as a muslim but it didn't stop men thinking white woman = easy meat and I was groped more wearing it than I have been not wearing it.
Personally I don't care if I am 'identified' as a muslim or not, it's no ones business and if they judge me on how they see me that's their problem.
If you saw me you would probably ask me where I parked my Harley...but I am still a muslim, and even though people cannot physically see I am a muslim that they can still see the way I protect my family, love my wife, respect my parents and kindness towards my neigbours.
I understand what you mean, but I think your illustration cannot be a general view of every culture? Got an example for you from my life. I am a sailor. On the vessels I work there are a lot of men but also women. If the women would act and speak in a way that could be considered "good" muslimah they wouldn't survive many minutes. Their personality would not fit the community on the vessel and would create a probable breakdown of the social structure. Having a "womanly" woman by your side in a storm does not exactly help you, it is more of a burden. So the female sailor develops a very hard exterior and can speak, walk, and talk the way a sailor does. Does that mean that they are "bad to the bone"? Does it mean that peer pressure or the society will change their modesty? No, of course not.
If the male sailor would act towards a female sailor the way he would act towards a woman at home, his wife or sister, the social structure of the ship would also break down. A sailor cannot change his manners towards another because of difference in gender, it doesn't work.....He needs to see a sailor, not the woman.Now that would probably be one of the jobs a muslim woman cannot do, according to hadithist as she would be with men and have to be like the men.
Good on them and you for doing this wonderful job though! God keep you safe on His waters peace -
Peace
The way I understand it, the primary meaning of modesty has to do with being moderate. This should therefore come through in our dress code if we see modesty as a requirement in the way we dress.
If a man or woman considers another inappropriately, it is not the fault of the person that is the subject of such inappropriateness. Each one of us must control ourselves and not exceed the limit ourselves. We must determine this for ourselves. Whether or not we are honest in this self determination is a matter for God to judge. Therefore I think that unless I am trying to determine how I should be modest (in dress or otherwise), I shouldn't concern myself with how anyone else should be moderate in their life. They have the freedom to choose whatever they want in life, just as I do.
The only time steps need to be taken is when someone encroaches on the right of another in a manner that doesn't give the latter any choice in the matter. An example would be murder.
Imraan
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Peace, rashidala
Not sure if this is your intention, but your post, although speaking about a women's issue, sounds as if is addressed solely to men. You keep speaking about "our women", what "they" should do, how "they" should be dressed and behaved etc.
Sorry, but that somehow bothers me. Why don't you address women directly and ask them how they feel about the issue, instead of asking for men's opinions?
I agree pretty much with BornAgain's post. The way I dress depends on the circumstances and the country I'm in, and I also wear knee-length skirts and tank tops in hot weather and when around people where this would be considered normal.
I noticed in Australia that men there don't look at you at all if you are wearing jeans and a short sleeved shirt, whereas in Egypt you would definitely get a lot of looks for that kind of dress. That's why I pretty much bought a new wardrobe when I moved back here. I didn't wear the veil and don't plan to, but I try to dress in long sleeves and baggy clothes as much as possible. And to be quite honest, I feel better, because I feel like I get lost in the crowd.
I remember we discussed this before in another thread (Struggling with Sexual Harassment by Egyptian Men) ? the level of harassment in Egypt and the covering up of women coincide with each other. Twenty, thirty years ago when women used to walk the streets in miniskirts, there was literally no street harassment while now, with about 95% of the women wearing a headscarf or more, it has become a serious social problem affecting almost every woman, no matter how she's dressed.
When I first moved here I used to cover up from head to toe (no headscarf though) and very baggy clothes, yet I was constantly being harassed. Now I wear what I like and, interestingly, get harassed less. I think it has something to do with feeling comfortable in your skin; baggy clothes are just not me and, being tallish and slim, I look and feel ridiculous in them. At some point I got really fed up with covering every inch of my skin in temperatures around 40?C, and I also got fed up with the prevailing notion that a "decent woman" has to cover her hair, ears, throat, arms etc., with the way women here are constantly being bullied into covering up more and more. So I decided that if people want to judge me for exposing my arms or my calves, then that's their problem and shows their narrow-mindedness and hypocricy.
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me too bro laugh
What, you are also covered in tattoos and clean shaven? wow
Peace, rashidala
Not sure if this is your intention, but your post, although speaking about a women's issue, sounds as if is addressed solely to men. You keep speaking about "our women", what "they" should do, how "they" should be dressed and behaved etc.Give the guy a break, sister Leyna, I refer to my (biological) sisters, my wife and my daughters as "my women"....it is a statement of affection, alright? peace
But yes, I agree with you. Just because you are a muslim woman doesn't give me the right as a muslim man to say "our women".
The only time steps need to be taken is when someone encroaches on the right of another in a manner that doesn't give the latter any choice in the matter. An example would be murder.
Imraan
I second that....
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Give the guy a break, sister Leyna, I refer to my (biological) sisters, my wife and my daughters as "my women"....it is a statement of affection, alright? peace
Emil, I don't have a problem with that expression. I have a problem with the poster using the third person plural instead of the second person, thus addressing the men but not the women themselves.
peace
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Brother Rashidala
I have a question, not meant to challenge but it is more of a curious question....
Why would like to be identified as a muslim?
You ARE a muslim, no doubt about it, and you are very brave, not many people here (me included) have the guts to use a picture of themselves as profile pic.
My outer exterior is probably the furthest away from the muslim. I am covered in tattoos, clean shaven....If you saw me you would probably ask me where I parked my Harley...but I am still a muslim, and even though people cannot physically see I am a muslim that they can still see the way I protect my family, love my wife, respect my parents and kindness towards my neigbours.i have the same question; i don't get this "identify oneself as a Muslim" thing either. our actions should speak for themselves.
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are guys really that turned on by forearms/scalp hair of any random woman on the street?
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are guys really that turned on by forearms/scalp hair of any random woman on the street?
i have a feeling that depends on where the "guys" are. in America and most countries and cultures, men are used to seeing women's hair, so i suppose that alone wouldn't turn them on. i bet in Saudi Arabia it's a whole different issue since they're not used to seeing women's hair at all. i'm a believer that you dress for the culture you're in (within reason, of course, lol).
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i have a feeling that depends on where the "guys" are. in America and most countries and cultures, men are used to seeing women's hair, so i suppose that alone wouldn't turn them on. i bet in Saudi Arabia it's a whole different issue since they're not used to seeing women's hair at all. i'm a believer that you dress for the culture you're in (within reason, of course, lol).
Thats not actually true about saudi arabia. A lot of the stuff we get on tv here has saudi music with long haired girls doing what appears to be a hair dance. All they seem to do is fling their hair from one side to the other while doing not very much of a dance while Arab men sort of bob up and down -\