Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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. Bigmo
You are right. However, the wife can also accuse her husband of adultery. Moreover dont limit quran to the middle eastern ignorance all the time. Middle estern culture is just one culture out of thousands of others, and other cultures have other rules. But it is clear that the quran emphasize the importance of protecting the honor and truthfulness of a wife just as you said because she is in many cases more vulnerable.
Peace
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The thing about honour killing is that it is simple rebelion against the Qur'an and God. Deliberately the law of God is ignored. What should be done with those people y consider them apostates, see how they like it.
Salaam
Just my words!
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Uncommitted sex? That is not cheating. Its sex outside of committment that is cheating. I think what you are saying is that it does not matter whether a couple are legally married or not as long as they have some committment between them. If a party does something in hiding and in secret there must be a reason he is doing so.
If you mean casual sex then ther is no party that is raising the issue. Its always when somebody else is involved where people usually have confrontation. The Koran sees adultery as a crime, but it is not a crime like any other because adultery is a very complicated matter. But the goal of the verses is about slandering women. In many societies that could be enough to create a huge problem.
You are right, flogging a women is no easy matter. That is why the Koran gave strict standards for implimenting. A women usually can have a way out from the Koran. But as fas as God is concerned, that is the proper punishment. Not because it is transgressing God's commandment because it also transgresses somebody else.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma3nBnRbmeA
Flogging is not a joke. Disturbing image. When Islam goes wrong.
Salam
By uncommitted sex I mean sex between two persons who has not given an oath to eachother. You could also call it marriage, but since the ritual of marriage is so diversified between cultures I find it misleading to use that term because many automatically thinks the traditional ritual must be upheld in order to legitimize the "marriage"
But by calling it uncommitted sex rather than adultery gives meaning to the harsh punishment. Just because we right now have means to prevent unwanted pregnancies only a few generations ago a casual sexual encounter could very much result..........in orphans.It's like this....Sex is probably one of the best things in life, but this wonderful thing can create another human being. A small little person who needs love and committment from two loving parents for many years to come. Allah speaks about those who are forced to live without a parent and He goes a long way to make sure we understand that they, the bastards, the illegitimate, the unwanted will have the same rights as children with two parents.
So sex brings an enormous amount of responsibility. Not wanting to take this responsibility results in a harsh punishment, simple... -
Salam
By uncommitted sex I mean sex between two persons who has not given an oath to eachother. You could also call it marriage, but since the ritual of marriage is so diversified between cultures I find it misleading to use that term because many automatically thinks the traditional ritual must be upheld in order to legitimize the "marriage"
But by calling it uncommitted sex rather than adultery gives meaning to the harsh punishment. Just because we right now have means to prevent unwanted pregnancies only a few generations ago a casual sexual encounter could very much result..........in orphans.It's like this....Sex is probably one of the best things in life, but this wonderful thing can create another human being. A small little person who needs love and committment from two loving parents for many years to come. Allah speaks about those who are forced to live without a parent and He goes a long way to make sure we understand that they, the bastards, the illegitimate, the unwanted will have the same rights as children with two parents.
So sex brings an enormous amount of responsibility. Not wanting to take this responsibility results in a harsh punishment, simple...Right, but I see the harsh punishment as meant to scare away slandering. If you look at the verse, its much easier to get flogged for slandering than it is for adultery. It is the only time the Koran insisted on four witness and it also said without the four witness those who brought forth the charge should get flogged (even if they may be saying the truth). It accepted the witness of a spouse but it also gave the other the right to bear witness also. It also tells us that these charges are usually brought about by men against women. The harshness of tone came regarding slandering. This can not be understood except understanding the culture and environment. If this was in China, maybe nobody would have cared to such a degree, but the easiest way to create problems in Arab culture is that. Lets look at the verses
Surah 24. Light
1.A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition.-
The woman and the man guilty of Zina,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
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Let no man guilty of Zina marry but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
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And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-
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Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
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And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
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And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
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But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
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And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
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If it were not for Allah.s grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed).
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Those who brought forward the lie are a body among yourselves think it not to be an evil to you; On the contrary it is good for you to every man among them (will come the punishment) of the sin that he earned, and to him who took on himself the lead among them, will be a penalty grievous.
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Why did not the believers - men and women - when ye heard of the affair,- put the best construction on it in their own minds and say, "This (charge) is an obvious lie" ?
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Why did they not bring four witnesses to prove it? When they have not brought the witnesses, such men, in the sight of Allah, (stand forth) themselves as liars!
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Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, in this world and the Hereafter, a grievous penalty would have seized you in that ye rushed glibly into this affair.
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Behold, ye received it on your tongues, and said out of your mouths things of which ye had no knowledge; and ye thought it to be a light matter, while it was most serious in the sight of Allah.
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And why did ye not, when ye heard it, say? - "It is not right of us to speak of this Glory to Allah. this is a most serious slander!"
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Allah doth admonish you, that ye may never repeat such (conduct), if ye are (true) Believers.
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And Allah makes the Signs plain to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
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Those who love (to see) scandal published broadcast among the Believers, will have a grievous Penalty in this life and in the Hereafter Allah knows, and ye know not.
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Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, and that Allah is full of kindness and mercy, (ye would be ruined indeed).
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O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong and were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, not one of you would ever have been pure but Allah doth purify whom He pleases and Allah is One Who hears and knows (all things).
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Let not those among you who are endued with grace and amplitude of means resolve by oath against helping their kinsmen, those in want, and those who have left their homes in Allah.s cause let them forgive and overlook, do you not wish that Allah should forgive you? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
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Those who slander chaste women, indiscreet but believing, are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter for them is a grievous Penalty,-
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On the Day when their tongues, their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them as to their actions.
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On that Day Allah will pay them back (all) their just dues, and they will realise that Allah is the (very) Truth, that makes all things manifest.
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Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity these are not affected by what people say for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.
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The harshness of tone came regarding slandering. This can not be understood except understanding the culture and environment. If this was in China, maybe nobody would have cared to such a degree, but the easiest way to create problems in Arab culture is that. Lets look at the verses
Right! that is exactly what my problem is, what I can't really get my head around. I would like very much to be able to look at the historical events that happened during this time to understand the verses of the Quran, but to me that makes me feel I just replaced hadith with a history book. I see the Quran as timeless and if prophet Muhammed would have been chinese the Quran would still look the same, exactly the same.
If you let me, I would like to change the words a little, just to make it clear of how I read the sura, may Allah forgive me for this. With "uncommitted" I mean that you have not taken an oath to protect and serve the "outcome" of sexual intercourse, ie. a baby. Like I said before, some people might call it marriage.
Taken from f-m Quran
The uncommitted, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
243 The male uncommitted will only marry an uncommitter or she who is a polytheist. And the female uncommitter, she will only be married to an uncommitter or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.
244 And those who accuse the independent females, then they do not bring forth four witnesses to say she is not true to her committment, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked.
245 Except those who repent after this and do good, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
246 And those who accuse their spouses of lying of her committment towards him, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that he is being truthful.
247 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon him if he is of the liars.
248 And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness four times by God that he is of the liars.
249 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon her if he is speaking the truth.
2410 All this is from the grace of God upon you and His mercy. And God is Forgiving, Wise.242 Punishment for playing with fire......Creating another human being is serious business, if you do not want to stand up for your responsibility you may in fact ruin the whole life of what you have so carelessly created in a moment of lust. IMO, being directly or indirectly responsible for potentially ruining another human's life deserves a harsh punishment, and flogging is the ultimate punishment in this case. Killing the person is not good because then the killer is responsible for creating orphans, and throwing in jail will only lead to nobody being able to take care of the child. A quick and harsh punishment is the perfect punishment.
243 Stating the obvious, a man or woman would never marry a person that (s)he knew is not going to take responsibility plus Allah does not allow it for a believer
244 The four witnesses do not need to witness a sexual act, they have to stand up and testify that this female is not true to her husband, that she only married him for his status or money. If he would lose that, she would divorce him. The yanks call these girls "gold diggers" I think. -
You cannot unish or judge on intentions. You can only judge on acts, and as to the acts. I do think that the thrust of the ayas dealing with zina and slandering of zina or what may look like it is to make people responsible and not give in to badmouthing others and gossip, but without condoning casual or uncommitted relationships, as you say. But a relation, even without love be completely committed if those who participate really discharge their duties. As to why they do it, if they themselves are in agreement nobody can tell them anything or judge them. It is their business. Een within marriage peoplemay be wholly uncommitted.
Laws cannot judge beforehand the feelings or intentions of people, only their acts.
Before the sura An-Nur we already knew how impoetant it is to be faithful in marriage and in everything else, how serious is such a compact and such relationship, that had already been upheld, but in An-Nur that seriousness is once more made manifest, but emphasis is made on the seriousness of slandering people, particularly women in order to divest them of their social rights. And I do not agree that that is particular to the middle East or to some countries or ages. Anywhere gossip and slander of unfaithfulness destroy lives and marriages. Some people may be hurt more, others less, but it is rare that anybody should just shrugg when made the target of slandering and gossip or when his or her trust in the partner is shaken or destroyed. Also precisely it is so that ppeople do not make suspicion or certainty about that kind of thing into a weapon, a deadly weapon. It demeans the whole society and turns it as it aptly say into eaters of the carrion of their own people. The Qur'an in this case where it goes overboard is in disparaging slanderers and those who would think the worst when they can think the best.
Salaam
Salaam
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You cannot unish or judge on intentions. You can only judge on acts, and as to the acts. I do think that the thrust of the ayas dealing with zina and slandering of zina or what may look like it is to make people responsible and not give in to badmouthing others and gossip, but without condoning casual or uncommitted relationships, as you say. But a relation, even without love be completely committed if those who participate really discharge their duties. As to why they do it, if they themselves are in agreement nobody can tell them anything or judge them. It is their business. Een within marriage peoplemay be wholly uncommitted.
Laws cannot judge beforehand the feelings or intentions of people, only their acts.
Before the sura An-Nur we already knew how impoetant it is to be faithful in marriage and in everything else, how serious is such a compact and such relationship, that had already been upheld, but in An-Nur that seriousness is once more made manifest, but emphasis is made on the seriousness of slandering people, particularly women in order to divest them of their social rights. And I do not agree that that is particular to the middle East or to some countries or ages. Anywhere gossip and slander of unfaithfulness destroy lives and marriages. Some people may be hurt more, others less, but it is rare that anybody should just shrugg when made the target of slandering and gossip or when his or her trust in the partner is shaken or destroyed. Also precisely it is so that ppeople do not make suspicion or certainty about that kind of thing into a weapon, a deadly weapon. It demeans the whole society and turns it as it aptly say into eaters of the carrion of their own people. The Qur'an in this case where it goes overboard is in disparaging slanderers and those who would think the worst when they can think the best.
Salaam
Salaam
Salam Huruf
I am not talking about punishing an intention, I am talking about punishing a non-intention. I am not talking about love or the committment of love between two people. I am talking about the committment towards a human that is the result of sexual intercourse.
You keep referring uncommitted sex to mean casual sex, but to me it is more than that. A married couple may be guilty of no committment if they get pregnant and decide to give the child up for adoption. A married couple can be guilty of no committment if they give birth to an unwanted child. They should not have sex if they do not take responsibility of the result. The human must control the lust. How can anyone think that "Sorry my son/daughter for letting you grow up without parents. We never wanted you....but we were just so darn horny. Hope you understand, thanks" will ever be an acceptable apology? We make promises everyday in order to get what we want, "yes I promise to drive carefully if I can borrow your car. Yes I promise not to stab you if I can borrow your knife >D" There is nowhere in the Quran that we promise our unborn children to be parents. Allah feels it is not enough with a promise, he has set out a punishment for us to endure in our earthly life if we thought we didn't have to take the responsibility.
I understand that Allah wants to stop slandering, especially if it is towards a woman. I don't disagree with you Huruf, Allah can and does address many aspects in one verse. My understanding of Zina very much covers adultery as well, because adultery in its very sense means uncommitted sex. So when the woman is protected against slander it could very much include the protection of the man against a woman who has married him for the wrong reasons, ie that she will leave him if a better (read wealthier) man comes along. Because most verses that address faithfulness are directed towards the man, not the woman. A muslim woman has not much committment according to the Quran, the traditional muslim has "solved" this by using hadith to make it virtually impossible for a woman to get a divorce.
Many Qurans translate Zina to "illegal sexual behaviour", my Quran translates it to "highly indecent act" and the punishment is very harsh. Remembering the countless times Allah mentions that we must treat orphans like any other children, don't you think that Allah would rather see that we humans do not create orphans in the first place? When Allah goes against our very nature as humans (yes, human nature says we are monogamous) and allows us to marry more than one woman if we fear for the orphans, don't you think it is in place to punish us harshly if we actively contribute in making more orphans?
I cannot see any bigger sin than to shun your own flesh and blood.
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Right! that is exactly what my problem is, what I can't really get my head around. I would like very much to be able to look at the historical events that happened during this time to understand the verses of the Quran, but to me that makes me feel I just replaced hadith with a history book. I see the Quran as timeless and if prophet Muhammed would have been chinese the Quran would still look the same, exactly the same.
If you let me, I would like to change the words a little, just to make it clear of how I read the sura, may Allah forgive me for this. With "uncommitted" I mean that you have not taken an oath to protect and serve the "outcome" of sexual intercourse, ie. a baby. Like I said before, some people might call it marriage.
Taken from f-m Quran
The uncommitted, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
243 The male uncommitted will only marry an uncommitter or she who is a polytheist. And the female uncommitter, she will only be married to an uncommitter or he who is a polytheist. And such has been made forbidden for the believers.
244 And those who accuse the independent females, then they do not bring forth four witnesses to say she is not true to her committment, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked.
245 Except those who repent after this and do good, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
246 And those who accuse their spouses of lying of her committment towards him, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that he is being truthful.
247 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon him if he is of the liars.
248 And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness four times by God that he is of the liars.
249 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon her if he is speaking the truth.
2410 All this is from the grace of God upon you and His mercy. And God is Forgiving, Wise.242 Punishment for playing with fire......Creating another human being is serious business, if you do not want to stand up for your responsibility you may in fact ruin the whole life of what you have so carelessly created in a moment of lust. IMO, being directly or indirectly responsible for potentially ruining another human's life deserves a harsh punishment, and flogging is the ultimate punishment in this case. Killing the person is not good because then the killer is responsible for creating orphans, and throwing in jail will only lead to nobody being able to take care of the child. A quick and harsh punishment is the perfect punishment.
243 Stating the obvious, a man or woman would never marry a person that (s)he knew is not going to take responsibility plus Allah does not allow it for a believer
244 The four witnesses do not need to witness a sexual act, they have to stand up and testify that this female is not true to her husband, that she only married him for his status or money. If he would lose that, she would divorce him. The yanks call these girls "gold diggers" I think.The problem with the uncommitted argument is that most men never tell a woman that they are uncommitted but tell them otherwise to have the women open up to them. The verse clearly indicates that this was not a situation where it was committment or not but somebody started a rumour about some misconduct. It also tell us that the situation included some spousal arrangement. So I really can not see what it can be but adultery. Some have said that it may not necessarily mean the couple should be married for Zina, any commitement can be equal to a marriage. This means Zina here is betrayal of an oath. I actually find this argument compelling. After all whether a couple are legally married or not does not change the issue. But the Koran did not really focus on adultery only, its main goal was slandering. In other society we can use analogy. Anything that can lead to families murdering their own daughters and stigmatizing families and making families split should be taken seriously.
The problem with adultery is that its most of the time the children who pay the ultimate price as adultery most often leads to divorce.
Sunni sources tell us that the verses came down regarding Muhammad's wife (Aisha). But the Koran did not tell us that, meaning its not who that is important here but the consequence. These kind of things are serious matters in Arab society. Also Indian and pakistani societies.
Also it is inconceiveable that the Koran would ignore the topic of adultery. One of the ten commandments of Moses.
As far as China is concerned, it is also inconceivable that the Koran would be exactly the same as any other revelation, given that many elements of the Koran has a direct relation with Muhammad's circumstances. Many verses deal with Mecca and deal with the battles fought and deal with specifics of the Medina community. Something that you can not duplicate in Jesus or Abraham's biography.However the Koran also gave us insight into Joseph's biography and also Moses. Each had his own circumstances. But each has something to teach us. But we can use the Koran as a guidance as that is what the Koran calls itself. The important thing here is the Koran is very transparent. We know of the many argument the Meccan disbelievers gave and they are identical to what the people of past prophets told the prophets. But there are events on the ground that are to do with Muhammad's biography.
Any legal framework must address the issues related with the society it came from. Just like drunk driving, citizenship laws and border control are not addresses specifically in the Koran, we can still use Koranic guidelines.
It affects the family as a whole and often lead to violence as pain here can be overwhelming. The eye for an eye says that as much pain you cause others should be inflicted on you.
http//www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/933967/
This is very sad but tells you what cheating can really do
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What I mean to say, Emil, is that abuse of institutions or relationships, which is what what you describe seems to me, to be qualified as a crime and then be witnessed by four people is virtually impossible. How are you going to prove that somebody, for instance wasn't really commited at a certain time, and only appeared to be so? Real changes for good or worse do occur. So in that case the ayas that deal with the punishment of zina, would be above all a qualifying of the gravity of certain behaviour even if that behaviour very rarely is going to be punishable judicially. That is what I mean, and that is where we end up in practical terms that in order to be called a zani practically you have to engage in public sex.
Also, the fact that the slander is made to appear as ugly as it is reinforces that zina is realy hateful, because you can not slander anybody with the same effectivenss if you choose another kind of action like let us say, lack of puntuality. And setting first the fact that the zani and the zaniya re going to be equally punishable makes or should make the penchant for slandering women and not men, more shocking. But of course, people can kick the Qur'an just as they can kick anything that does not pander to its desires.
Salaam
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Salaam Bigmo
The problem with adultery is that its most of the time the children who pay the ultimate price as adultery most often leads to divorce.
Yes, and it should be the children who are protected by law, they are the innocent ones.
Sunni sources tell us that the verses came down regarding Muhammad's wife (Aisha). But the Koran did not tell us that, meaning its not who that is important here but the consequence. These kind of things are serious matters in Arab society. Also Indian and pakistani societies.
I understand that, but as a Northern European who does not know that will not consider that when reading the verses. I want to discuss this further (see below)
Also it is inconceiveable that the Koran would ignore the topic of adultery. One of the ten commandments of Moses.
I agree
As far as China is concerned, it is also inconceivable that the Koran would be exactly the same as any other revelation, given that many elements of the Koran has a direct relation with Muhammad's circumstances.
I beg to differ, the message would still be the same regardless of what country the Quran landed. Allah had a reason to choose the Middle East, perhaps this region was the most suitable, just like Allah had a reason to choose male prophets.
Sunni sources tell us that the verses came down regarding Muhammad's wife (Aisha). But the Koran did not tell us that, meaning its not who that is important here but the consequence. These kind of things are serious matters in Arab society. Also Indian and pakistani societies.
Any legal framework must address the issues related with the society it came from. Just like drunk driving, citizenship laws and border control are not addresses specifically in the Koran, we can still use Koranic guidelines.By not specifying what Zina and fahisha incorporates, I think Allah shows us, just like you say, that the meaning is supposed to be different depending on the society. Allah has on purpose made us into different nations and tribes, it would be illogical if we were then asked by Him to feel exactly the same. In Pakistani and Indian cultures slandering is a problem, let them use Zina to stop slandering. In other countries people do not take responsibility (it is only abortion that is hiding the effect), lets use Zina to stop this.
What I mean to say, Emil, is that abuse of institutions or relationships, which is what what you describe seems to me, to be qualified as a crime and then be witnessed by four people is virtually impossible. How are you going to prove that somebody, for instance wasn't really commited at a certain time, and only appeared to be so?
Salam Huruf
Well, for starters if a man dumps the woman the minute he finds out she is pregnant is proof enough I think. This is not a hypothetical scenario, happens every day.
A woman dumps the man the minute he lost his job. Again, it happens everyday.
If I was love-struck I would certainly appreciate if people who have insight in my relationship (friends, family) would stand up and warn me if they see what I cannot because I am blind with love.
I would like to have a "weapon" against those men who play on the girl's emotions in order to get her in the sack.
The harsh punishment is a deterrent, do not get involved unless you are serious. It is a pre-emptive strike so that orphans are not made unecessarily.
And, I see the impossibility of having four witnesses of adultery bigger than the impossibility of having four witnesses to evidence that a people will not commit to their off-spring.Like I said before, perhaps the meaning of Zina (and fahisha) is supposed to be flexible? It is perhaps not supposed to have one set meaning. Maybe we are to incorporate the meaning with what we and our society regard as Zina.
If we let the society govern what Zina and fahisha means, I think we will find a balance. Zina and fahisha should be governed by our EQ (emotional intellect), otherwise we will only impose moral values upon eachother. -
Salaam Bigmo
Yes, and it should be the children who are protected by law, they are the innocent ones.I understand that, but as a Northern European who does not know that will not consider that when reading the verses. I want to discuss this further (see below)
I agree
I beg to differ, the message would still be the same regardless of what country the Quran landed. Allah had a reason to choose the Middle East, perhaps this region was the most suitable, just like Allah had a reason to choose male prophets.
By not specifying what Zina and fahisha incorporates, I think Allah shows us, just like you say, that the meaning is supposed to be different depending on the society. Allah has on purpose made us into different nations and tribes, it would be illogical if we were then asked by Him to feel exactly the same. In Pakistani and Indian cultures slandering is a problem, let them use Zina to stop slandering. In other countries people do not take responsibility (it is only abortion that is hiding the effect), lets use Zina to stop this.
Salam Huruf
Well, for starters if a man dumps the woman the minute he finds out she is pregnant is proof enough I think. This is not a hypothetical scenario, happens every day.
A woman dumps the man the minute he lost his job. Again, it happens everyday.
If I was love-struck I would certainly appreciate if people who have insight in my relationship (friends, family) would stand up and warn me if they see what I cannot because I am blind with love.
I would like to have a "weapon" against those men who play on the girl's emotions in order to get her in the sack.
The harsh punishment is a deterrent, do not get involved unless you are serious. It is a pre-emptive strike so that orphans are not made unecessarily.
And, I see the impossibility of having four witnesses of adultery bigger than the impossibility of having four witnesses to evidence that a people will not commit to their off-spring.Like I said before, perhaps the meaning of Zina (and fahisha) is supposed to be flexible? It is perhaps not supposed to have one set meaning. Maybe we are to incorporate the meaning with what we and our society regard as Zina.
If we let the society govern what Zina and fahisha means, I think we will find a balance. Zina and fahisha should be governed by our EQ (emotional intellect), otherwise we will only impose moral values upon eachother.Tje problem of that is proving and in fat is founded on proving intentions. If a man drops a lover the moment she is pregnant, then you do not need to prove his intentions and that will nto help a bit the mother or the possible child. What should be done, particularly now that the adn can be traced is to takis his money and give it to his family whther he wanted that family or didn't. In fact, funily now in Spain according to law that could be done, but it is not done because the means to cary out the law are not there, and justice is low, slow slow.
How can you prove that a woman left a man because he has no money? May be it is because of that, may be not. May be he is just being very cruel with her and money or not money she just cannot stand it. You may punish people who are guilty, but you may also punich people who are inocent and may be victims. And if what the Qur'an meant that why ask for four witnesses. Could just ask for proof. Documental proof, that would show if somebody drops another person.
I am sorry Emil and morally you are right and we all would agree with that and independently of the zina in Qur'an, we would all want laws that prevented people from misusing relationships and institutions and I am sure , of course, the Qur'an authorizes any legal effort of societies to bring about more equity and justice, but I doubt that zina is meant for that. However, nothing prevents us from setting up real physical punishment for betrayers of trust, or disregard for material responsibility.
Salam
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Tje problem of that is proving and in fat is founded on proving intentions. If a man drops a lover the moment she is pregnant, then you do not need to prove his intentions and that will nto help a bit the mother or the possible child. What should be done, particularly now that the adn can be traced is to takis his money and give it to his family whther he wanted that family or didn't. In fact, funily now in Spain according to law that could be done, but it is not done because the means to cary out the law are not there, and justice is low, slow slow.
How can you prove that a woman left a man because he has no money? May be it is because of that, may be not. May be he is just being very cruel with her and money or not money she just cannot stand it. You may punish people who are guilty, but you may also punich people who are inocent and may be victims. And if what the Qur'an meant that why ask for four witnesses. Could just ask for proof. Documental proof, that would show if somebody drops another person.
I am sorry Emil and morally you are right and we all would agree with that and independently of the zina in Qur'an, we would all want laws that prevented people from misusing relationships and institutions and I am sure , of course, the Qur'an authorizes any legal effort of societies to bring about more equity and justice, but I doubt that zina is meant for that. However, nothing prevents us from setting up real physical punishment for betrayers of trust, or disregard for material responsibility.
Salam
Salam
I can find proof just by going to a bar or disco.......I have many male friends that will say "I love you" to a girl just to get her in the sack. They absolutely no intention of becoming a father and I know they would run away if the girl would become pregnant. I also have female friends who would sleep with a man because he has a nice car, know the right people, is famous, has money.
How would you feel if your own sister would be fooled by one of these men? How would you feel if your brother was fooled by one of these girls? Would you not want to know if your future spouse has no intention of becoming a parent? The uncommitted is to marry an uncommitter, there should never be a relationship where one (or two) is not totally committed to the children.Allah is not protecting arab women from slandering, he is protecting his children from bad parents. We don't need to even open our eyes to see that the world we live in has problems, and the ones who get punished are the children. I cannot think of a bigger crime than to knowlingly put a child on this earth and not take responsibility for it. It goes way beyond slandering, waaay beyond.....
Allah tells us not to kill our children because of poverty, we will provide for those who need it. Does that give us the right to produce children without taking the responsibility as a parent? No, of course not. The way I see it is that the earthly punishments set down by Allah are given to us because if Allah would "wait" until judgement day the damage is already done. The victim of a burglary may have lost all his possessions ending up in poverty. An unwanted child has already suffered.
However, nothing prevents us from setting up real physical punishment for betrayers of trust, or disregard for material responsibility.
Not in Allah's name I hope....
I am sorry I may be typing so it sounds like I am being. I am really stressed right now and I should be packing instead of posting on this very interesting thread.
Need to go, peace brothers and sisters
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For purposes of assurance, I will repeat my above argument for the sake of its sound reasoning, and for the sake of the believers
A shift in meaning of a signifier (a word) from that which it originally signified can only be considered as true upon the presentation of a sizeable body of evidence in the form of a corpus from which the use of said signifier - in signifying any number of significations - can be tallied, analysed, and derived.
Brothers and sisters, zaani (both as a verbal adjective and as a participle) can only mean one who performs sex outside marriage, invariably.
There is not, and has never been (since circa the 6th century) any signification of zaani other than that above defined.
Whoever claims otherwise, for whatever purpose his fancies so dictate to him, then let him undertake the arduous task of presenting to the members of this forum, and indeed presenting to the world at large, the necessary texts dating back to the centuries immediately proximate to the Quran's revelation with which he can demonstrate his proposed lexicon in order to give his statements any sense of validation.
Otherwise, let him desist in propagating such falsity stemming either from the fact that he does not know (in which case no blame is on him), or from the fact that he does not care to know (in which case his judgement lies with God).
Peace!
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Brothers and sisters, zaani (both as a verbal adjective and as a participle) can only mean one who performs sex outside marriage, invariably.
There is not, and has never been (since circa the 6th century) any signification of zaani other than that above defined.
Was there since the 6th century any event of zina proven by four witnesses?
Was there any event since the 6th century an event where zaani and zaania wer forced or asked to marry each other or marry a mushrik
Was there since the 6th century an event where a zani was refused marriage because of just being a zani?
Your logic of "an event that never happened" does not hold water. -
For purposes of assurance, I will repeat my above argument for the sake of its sound reasoning, and for the sake of the believers
A shift in meaning of a signifier (a word) from that which it originally signified can only be considered as true upon the presentation of a sizeable body of evidence in the form of a corpus from which the use of said signifier - in signifying any number of significations - can be tallied, analysed, and derived.
Brothers and sisters, zaani (both as a verbal adjective and as a participle) can only mean one who performs sex outside marriage, invariably.
There is not, and has never been (since circa the 6th century) any signification of zaani other than that above defined.
Whoever claims otherwise, for whatever purpose his fancies so dictate to him, then let him undertake the arduous task of presenting to the members of this forum, and indeed presenting to the world at large, the necessary texts dating back to the centuries immediately proximate to the Quran's revelation with which he can demonstrate his proposed lexicon in order to give his statements any sense of validation.
Otherwise, let him desist in propagating such falsity stemming either from the fact that he does not know (in which case no blame is on him), or from the fact that he does not care to know (in which case his judgement lies with God).
Peace!
Right, but the same could be said about fornification. We know the Old Testament does not seperate between the two. Most concervative society does not seperate between the two except for males. Most honor killing in Arab societies are about fornification. Some here have translated that verse as meaning both fornification or adultery. This may make sense from a societal perspective but not a legal one. Since marriage is a legal issue while fornification is sex between two partners who are not accountable to anybody else.
One interpretation I find convincing is that Zina simply means betrayal and cheating. Having sex outside a partner you are committed to which you often have to do in hiding. She could be your legal wife or your partner. Either way the effect is the same. Matrriage generally has family and children so it tends to get uglier. I think ist a question of what marriage mean as compared to partners who are not married. In many society people could be living together and not legally married. But the consequences of cheating is almost the same. I am not sure if people can have children outside marriage. I know in Western society you can have that but its still rare.
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@ Samia,
Forgive me Samia, I didn't fully understand your reply.
Please clarify.
@ Bigmo,
Sex is the physical act of reproduction. God prohibits the performance of this act with anyone to whom you are not married.
If a person is single and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
If a person is married and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
Fornication is the English word for zinaa. God prohibits zinaa.
Adultery with sexual relations is therefore prohibited.
I apologise if I'm not being clear, there is a lot of overlap in the definitions of these words making it difficult for me to get the idea across clearly.
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@ Samia,
Forgive me Samia, I didn't fully understand your reply.
Please clarify.
@ Bigmo,
Sex is the physical act of reproduction. God prohibits the performance of this act with anyone to whom you are not married.
If a person is single and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
If a person is married and has performed this act with someone to whom they are not married, then they have violated the prohibition.
Fornication is the English word for zinaa. God prohibits zinaa.
Adultery with sexual relations is therefore prohibited.
I apologise if I'm not being clear, there is a lot of overlap in the definitions of these words making it difficult for me to get the idea across clearly.
I understand but would God talk about punishment for something that does not transgress in somebody else's right? Disbelieving in God and ridiculing the prophets is far worse than whatever Zina is. Yet God gave people that right to believe or to disbelieve and worship idols. He reserved their fate to Himself and not us.
So whatver Zina is it has to be something that violates somebody else's right. Adultery fits into that and in modern society partners fits into that. As Zina here will mean betrayal and cheating. So maybe Zina is adultery and cheating.
After all isn't adultery in the end cheating and an act of betrayal. It also always invokes harmful reactions. Sometimes murder. But unless it violates somebody else's right and justice than we can not perform any punishment. That is how the Koran frames its legalism. Just to sin or transgress God's command is not our job but God's. Or else we will go back to sectarian Islam where the judge acts like God's stick and the ruler as God's agent on Earth and the police like the angels recording sins. This is not the Koran and the Koran gave nobody such authority.
One of the goals of Sunni/Shia Islam was to elevate the prophetic authority (through the Sunna) to an absolute divine like authority and then to transfer that authority to the 4 Caliphs and then the road is paved to transfer that authority to Omar Al Bashir, Ahmedinijad, Mulla Omar and Al Saud and the Shabab of Somalia. Without the Sunnah that would have been impossible since the prophetic authority in the Koran is a limited authority where what man does to man is in his domian but what man does with God is God's domain. Not the prophet's domain.
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Bigmo,
You make a fair point.
Adultery does violate the right of the person whose partner is cheating. But this in no way alters the meaning of the word zinaa which is used to signify sex outside marriage, invariably. I also agree with you that zinaa is not as bad as disbelieving in God and in the prophets of God, but zinaa carries a punishment in the same way that theft carries a punishment.
Might I add that the probability of 4 witnesses catching two people in the act is hugely remote; there is little chance of such a thing happening. This leads me to believe that it is God's intention to cover up our sins and to not expose them to the public perchance we desist, such is the expanse of this law.
Though, I do believe that the stipulation of punishment serves to act as a boundary to this expanse by establishing that if 4 witnesses do catch two people in the act, and all 4 testify, then the punishment must be established.