Why Quran only is not a viable alternative to mainstream Islam(Sunnism)
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Dear all,
This is my first post. I have been pondering about religion in general,- I would like to identify myself with being a skeptic. My parents/environment are all Sunnis, and quite devout. Ofcourse, the same nuances are also present in Sunnism(There are certain hadiths which are accepted by some, but seen fabricated by others.). Islam as I was taught by my parents was Sunni/Hanefi/Naqshbandi Islam, - the doctrines of a certain Naqshbandiyya , quite orthodox, religious tariqat(=sect, nearly cult I would say) originating in Turkey..In other words Extremely conservative, and all others are destined for Hell. (Quranists are seen even worse than Kuffaar(=non Muslims) as you consider yourself Muslim, while clearly(to many) you are not.)
Anyway, my problem as mentioned in the topictitel is the following Without seerah/hadiths/authority-of-ulema(madhap etc), there is just nothing left of Islam..! Hadiths contain lots of BS, but the same is true for the Qur'an. The following are just simpel observations I made about the Qur'an
- Many ayats are repetitions.
- Many ayats are about the kuffaar(What's ur interpretation of "KFR"?) , and the grave punishment which awaits them. Certainly doesn't make a good case in convincing me that it is divine(Why so many threats?)
- Many ayats are about fairy tales ( Contrary to "ordinary" Muslims, I don't expect you to be easily offended, but I mean the stories of the "former prophets".. (cf Surahi Fil(Elephant), the destruction of former tribes, Noahs flood.. No different than the Greek mythology for me..)
- Many surahs are about shariah(laws). But here again Just a few compared to the vast collection of do's and dont's of Sunnism. And many of those laws don't make sense nowadays. (CUtting of hands ISS in the Qur'an,- don't try to find a loophole by endless "re"interpreting !)
------ and I could go on.
As I can't see myself believing in the tenets of Islam,- even the most naked version of it, I have even lost the possibilty of becoming a "Qur'anist".
Kind regards, -
Peace CitizenDerCosmos
welcome
I'm not sure how much you've looked into Quran only Islam, but many of your objections to what you consider Quranic are, in fact remnants of Sunni days gone by. This is quite natural.
Some examples are
the grave punishment
Surahi Fil(Elephant)
Noahs flood.. No different than the Greek mythology for me..Anyway, it would be helpful if you were more specific about the particular verses regarding these subjects that you are referring to as context is always an important part of the study of Quran.
It would also be helpful if you actually detailed what you understand each of the issues mean.
As for re-interpreting, keep in mind that there is always a possibility that re-interpretation actually amounts to returning to the original message rather than creating a new understanding.
If you are serious about exploring the Quran, make use of the many tools available at
http//www.studyquran.org/This will enable you to make informed decisions regarding what the Quran is saying.
Imraan
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A! Hadiths contain lots of BS, but the same is true for the Qur'an. The following are just simpel observations I made about the Qur'an
So you consider Quran contains "lot of BS" as well
................., and the grave punishment which awaits them.
Where are those ayats for "grave Punishment" do you have any references.
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Peace and welcome Cosmos.
I have looked into many different beliefs and I am still looking and trying to learn. Good luck with your endeavor.
Thanks
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Yes, there may be a serious question of interpretation of the "grave" Citizen means.
Other than that , if a priori he already has mad up his mind that whatever Qur'anic Muslims interpret when reading the Qur'an is wrong and what "traditiionalists" (which "traditionalists" is not clear) interpret is right, and warns not to attempt to argue otherwise, what, then, is the point of discusing?
Salaam
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peace,
Welcome.
I will be brief
- Many ayats are repetitions.
In every day life, it is common for people to be told or reminded multiple times, before they heed a message. Also, sometimes the repetitions are used as an explanatory tool.
- Many ayats are about the kuffaar(What's ur interpretation of "KFR"?) , and the grave punishment which awaits them. Certainly doesn't make a good case in convincing me that it is divine(Why so many threats?)
"kafir" is a descriptive word meaning to deny/conceal/cover, ungrateful, reject.
Why so many threats? Maybe because people dont listen? Maybe because its true?- Many ayats are about fairy tales ( Contrary to "ordinary" Muslims, I don't expect you to be easily offended, but I mean the stories of the "former prophets".. (cf Surahi Fil(Elephant), the destruction of former tribes, Noahs flood.. No different than the Greek mythology for me..)
We need specifics, so we can examine what is "fairy tale" about them. Please select one or two.
- Many surahs are about shariah(laws). But here again Just a few compared to the vast collection of do's and dont's of Sunnism. And many of those laws don't make sense nowadays. (CUtting of hands ISS in the Qur'an,- don't try to find a loophole by endless "re"interpreting !)
Does vast collection of do's/dont's = more right?
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm -
Salaam to all.
I love this site yay bravo I learn so much and I am so grateful to Allah swt for guiding me here. Thanks everyone for being so brilliant!Simone sun
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Peace Citizen
You must be someone that is not only very brave but someone very in touch with his feelings to be able to write the post you did. Its not often that someone is able to be so honest about how vulnerable they feel.
I understand from your post that you are rejecting sunnism, and are skeptical about Quran only as well. I hope you stay around this forum long enough to learn more about what Quran only is about, to make a truly informed decision.
I don't envy people who never lose faith in the belief system they were brought up in, because then they never question it either. Most of us here are very lucky even if we sometimes feel like the outsider in the larger muslim community.
Theres lots of people here that will talk to you without judgement
Kukumber
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Hi all! Thanks for all your posts, I will try to respond to some of the questions posed, but let me first make it clearer peace
Offtopic (I don't speak german in my daily life, but I speak the closely related Dutch).
I reject/don't believe it anymore Sunni Islam. Probably due to the same reasons as the Qur'anists here reject Sunni(or perhaps Shia) Islam.(Contradicting, downward stupid/racist hadiths, the extreme dogmatism and relying on appeal to authority etc etc ). So, let's try to look at Qur'an only, - in which case we are (literally) left with just this book, the Qur'an.
Now, the problem is that I can't see anything divine in this book.Really. Sure, there is good poetry in it, there might be usefull guidances and advices, but really nothing divine or special, while it is supposed to be a very special book.. (A side note, I know some Arabic..)I can write a book,- anyone can, - and in it I can include lots of usefull guidance about how to live a happy life, how to make this world a better place, I can even include some hints and tips on how to discover the beauties, the mysteries of this universe we live in etc etc, but whatever good advice which it might contain it won't be divine ..
Well, "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence" as said by the legendary astronomer Carl Sagan, and I would like to concurr with it.
There isn't any. Not a single shred of "evidence" that this book is divine. (I am sorry, I am not that well informed about Quran-only, but I presume you also reject the miracles like inshiqaq-i qamer (splitting of the moon?).)
Just a book.. By and for seventh century arabia.Now, I know about the works of Edip Yuksel and the whole hype about nineteen. But really, numerology is so fake, not at all convincing. Sorry, but I couldn't get convinced by the whole 19 thing either. Neither by "scientific miracles" ( Not sure whether you ever appeal to such evidences, though) Big bang was in the Qur'an, and many many related "miracles". No need to explain, you all have heared about it I suppose.
Anyway, to come back to my openingsquestion Quran-only movement won't hold it out,- indeed by almost all other Muslims you are considered apostates. Quran-only is the last chance to "rationalize" Islam,- a major blow to Islam in which >99% of Islamic literature is all rejected/deemed unreliable.
... I regard Qur'an-only as the last stop before total apostasy..
PS I am here on this forum as you guys are MUCH more kind and welcoming regarding apposing views contrary to dogmatic Muslims.Addition I have the impression that Quranists( I know it sounds deragatory, but you get the point) desperately want to hold on to their idealized view of Muhammed as being a very kind, civilized, smart person, also by now era's standards. As a consequence, they consider all hadiths which says that, e.g. , he ordered a stoning, he ordered the killing of 900 Jews of Banu Qurayza, he made racist/sexist remarks about women, he married a nine year old girl, etc etc, as being unreliable. Indeed, a true prophet of God would never do those.
However, don't you ever think of the possibility that he might have done those things..! -
Dear all,
This is my first post. I have been pondering about religion in general,- I would like to identify myself with being a skeptic. My parents/environment are all Sunnis, and quite devout. Ofcourse, the same nuances are also present in Sunnism(There are certain hadiths which are accepted by some, but seen fabricated by others.). Islam as I was taught by my parents was Sunni/Hanefi/Naqshbandi Islam, - the doctrines of a certain Naqshbandiyya , quite orthodox, religious tariqat(=sect, nearly cult I would say) originating in Turkey..In other words Extremely conservative, and all others are destined for Hell. (Quranists are seen even worse than Kuffaar(=non Muslims) as you consider yourself Muslim, while clearly(to many) you are not.)
Anyway, my problem as mentioned in the topictitel is the following Without seerah/hadiths/authority-of-ulema(madhap etc), there is just nothing left of Islam..! Hadiths contain lots of BS, but the same is true for the Qur'an. The following are just simpel observations I made about the Qur'an
- Many ayats are repetitions.
- Many ayats are about the kuffaar(What's ur interpretation of "KFR"?) , and the grave punishment which awaits them. Certainly doesn't make a good case in convincing me that it is divine(Why so many threats?)
- Many ayats are about fairy tales ( Contrary to "ordinary" Muslims, I don't expect you to be easily offended, but I mean the stories of the "former prophets".. (cf Surahi Fil(Elephant), the destruction of former tribes, Noahs flood.. No different than the Greek mythology for me..)
- Many surahs are about shariah(laws). But here again Just a few compared to the vast collection of do's and dont's of Sunnism. And many of those laws don't make sense nowadays. (CUtting of hands ISS in the Qur'an,- don't try to find a loophole by endless "re"interpreting !)
------ and I could go on.
As I can't see myself believing in the tenets of Islam,- even the most naked version of it, I have even lost the possibilty of becoming a "Qur'anist".
Kind regards,Welcome cosmos I think I recognized you.any ways welcome again handshake
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Hi Citizen,
I'm disappointed by your reply, but I will respond once again.
I can write a book,- anyone can, - and in it I can include lots of usefull guidance about how to live a happy life, how to make this world a better place, I can even include some hints and tips on how to discover the beauties, the mysteries of this universe we live in etc etc, but whatever good advice which it might contain it won't be divine ..
You could, but I highly doubt it. For starters, see http//www.quran434.com/Does-God-Exist.pdf
I am not that well informed about Quran-only
I can tell by your statement such as
Anyway, to come back to my openingsquestion Quran-only movement won't hold it out,- indeed by almost all other Muslims you are considered apostates. Quran-only is the last chance to "rationalize" Islam,- a major blow to Islam in which >99% of Islamic literature is all rejected/deemed unreliable.
I think you will find "Quran only" is nothing new. For starters, see
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm
Secondly, "Quran only" is on the rise, and rather significantly I might add.However, don't you ever think of the possibility that he might have done those things..!
Yes, it is a possibility, but we go by weighting of evidence. You might find this site useful
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com -
Hi Citizen,
I'm disappointed by your reply, but I will respond once again.
Hi Wakas, I am sorry to have disappointed you, but I tried to be honest. Look, you say that Quran-only is on the rise, but I don't know, - numbers don't prove the veracity anyway.
Indeed, I am already labelled an "atheist" here, which I find offensive due to the connotations associated with this word. My mindset can be summarized as being confused,- confused and disappointed about the problems of mainstream (Sunni) Islam, while Quran-only seems like an attempt to fix the incurable problems...And the method is quite effective I have to admit Just throw away(almost literally) those problems..!(=Hadith, Sunni understanding)
Now, I can begin rambling and start listing the commong objections like " How can u know how to pray without hadith?", because you are obviously not in the mood of answering those over-answered questions. But yet, the problems of basing a whole religion on just, solely a single book , a book about which I have adressed a few problems with it, just seems insurmountable. In fact, this naked Islam with which you are left with doesn't differ that much from Deism.Concerning the site you gave(misconceptions about Islam)
It can't be said that I was impressed by the arguments presented on that site, at least for the few articles I glimpsed at. Take for instance
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muslim-or-hell.htm
.. in which only the few verses are taken which appear to be in favor. However, there are tons of verses which very clearly talk about the severe punishments which awaits kuffaar. And that they will dwell therein for ever(ebedan).You know, I don't think Qur'anists are being honest when they keep interpreting verses to mean something different, while there is a clear meaning (the meaning as given by mainstream Islam)
For instance "khalideenaa feehaa ebedan" is , I guess, translated by Qur'an only to mean "for very long", instead of the more straighforward "for ever, till eternity".
Or take the word "k-f-r". Literally meaning "to cover up", but used for people, while well-read about Islam, still reject it. This would include apostates. Would this make me a kafir? Because literally speaking I (nor the majority of other non-Muslims) don't conceal the truth, I am just pretty much agnostic about a personal God, hence also about the scriptures. -
Now, the problem is that I can't see anything divine in this book.Really.
There isn't any. Not a single shred of "evidence" that this book is divine.
What exactly were you expecting to find in a divine book?
Anyway, to come back to my openingsquestion Quran-only movement won't hold it out,- indeed by almost all other Muslims you are considered apostates.
I'm sure you would agree that it is irrelevant what almost all other muslims think, unless you equate mass appeal with truth.
Quran-only is the last chance to "rationalize" Islam,- a major blow to Islam in which >99% of Islamic literature is all rejected/deemed unreliable.
Quran alone is Islam. This isn't a fad or a movement. What we know as traditional Islam is the 'alternative', and the corruption of what is a universal message.
However, don't you ever think of the possibility that he might have done those things..!
There's nothing desperate about it... we say about him what the quran says about him. That is the ideology and the method of how we approach matters of faith and religion. We maintain that he was kind and an upright person because that's what the quran says. We reject that which is in contradiction with that.
... I regard Qur'an-only as the last stop before total apostasy..
I found this statement rather odd. You seem to be trying to believe in God through a rational process yet simultaneously rejecting the kitaab because it doesn't contain a divine flavour, which you're trying to discern rationally. Again, what were you expecting from a divine book and how did you come up with this criteria rationally?
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Hi Citizen,
Concerning the site you gave(misconceptions about Islam)
It can't be said that I was impressed by the arguments presented on that site, at least for the few articles I glimpsed at. Take for instance
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/muslim-or-hell.htm
.. in which only the few verses are taken which appear to be in favor. However, there are tons of verses which very clearly talk about the severe punishments which awaits kuffaar. And that they will dwell therein for ever(ebedan).Are you implying "kuffar" is equal to "people of the book"?
You know, I don't think Qur'anists are being honest when they keep interpreting verses to mean something different, while there is a clear meaning (the meaning as given by mainstream Islam)
For instance "khalideenaa feehaa ebedan" is , I guess, translated by Qur'an only to mean "for very long", instead of the more straighforward "for ever, till eternity".Guess? ??? It would mean "forever" or however long "hell" lasts.
Or take the word "k-f-r". Literally meaning "to cover up", but used for people, while well-read about Islam, still reject it. This would include apostates. Would this make me a kafir? Because literally speaking I (nor the majority of other non-Muslims) don't conceal the truth, I am just pretty much agnostic about a personal God, hence also about the scriptures.
If one believes in God or The Quran, they will obviously do deeds described in it. This confirms their belief-position.
If you read The Quran and reject it, and then you do acts against what it says, this confirms your belief-position as a "kuffar".
I assume you have read The Quran?
Instead of skipping points, I recommend actually studying them. A book you might find interesting
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm -
Instead of skipping points, I recommend actually studying them. A book you might find interesting
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htmFrom Tolu-e-Islam site
As far as ahaadith are concerned, Tolu-e-Islam considers all those ahaadith as true which are in accordance with the Quran or which do not stain the character of the Prophet (P) or his companions (R).
Tolu-e-Islam does not belong to any political party nor does it belong to any religious group or sect (it has nothing to do with the sect known as Ahle-Quran). Also, it does not want to create any new sect because such acts of creating sects in Deen are Shirk. Tolu-e-Islam does not advocate any change in the way different sects in the Ummah are practicing the five pillars. In fact, it adheres to the same practices. Tolu-e-Islam seeks to propagate the Quranic teachings so that the system of "Khilafat ?Ala Minhaj-e-Risalat" is once again established.
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If you read The Quran and reject it, and then you do acts against what it says, this confirms your belief-position as a "kuffar".
Oh sure I've read the Qur'an from cover to cover. In arabic, and in my native language, Turkish.
Oh well, I pretty much live according to the book as many of the advices of the Qur'an apply nowadays too. Anyway, just a few rules are left when we discard the ahadith. Anyway, even though I don't really believe the Qur'an to be the holy book of God, I applaud the Qur'an-only movement as you are breaching through the thick barriers of statusquo, dogmatism and intellectual laziness. I repeat my point about you cherry picking those verses which seem to support your point,- I laughed out loud at their bizarre way they interpreted the "cut off their hands" verse as meaning something totally different, while it really IS clear.... I mean.. rotfl
