Why Quran only is not a viable alternative to mainstream Islam(Sunnism)

Wakas

Hi Citizen,

I laughed out loud at their bizarre way they interpreted the "cut off their hands" verse as meaning something totally different, while it really IS clear.... I mean.. rotfl

I'm glad you laughed, because I anticipate I'm about to have a big laugh myself. But first, please answer 4 simple questions based on the above

If the verb second form denotes intensity and frequency of action and is used more times to mean a physical cut than the first form, why use the first form (less intense) in 538?
Why is it in 1231 it used the more intensive second form verb and "hands" together, yet it does not mean "cut off"?
Why is it when lashes are given as punishment for proven adultery, The Quran states not to let pity/compassion prevent you from carrying out such a punishment , but it says no such thing for the alleged hand cutting-off verse, when many consider this punishment to be worse?
What punishment is given in the only example of a theft punishment in The Quran is it hand(s) being cut off?

CitizenDerCosmos

I will adress those points later(I am sleeping now),- however even if it is indeed as you claim not cutting of hands but some minor sanction, it is STILL laughable, as all those Muslims had it wrong, and not a little bit wrong, but TOTALLY wrong. (Anyway, traditional Muslims won't even try to respond to those 4 points u made, as they have the hadith in which these, and other penalties, are explained in detail. )
Yet, this book claims to be absolutely clear.. So we'd still be left with something uncomfortable and nagging..
I mean.. It is just pathetic that ALL those thousands of ulemaa all had it completely wrong... And here we are back at one of the strongest arguments of traditional Muslims.. Appeal to authority.

SarahY

just some thoughts

What brings you to the forum?

Seerah is biography; its relevance is historical.

No one denies that there is good hadith, even Quran says it is the best hadith 3923

Authority of ulema? They have their opinions and their place theyre not law binding.

Madhabs are an innovation, if you wanna go by madhabs theres over 4, read the history about it just because 4 is practiced and indoctrinated today doesnt mean that's the be all end all.

You might not agree with Quran and that is solely your choice and you will be accountable for your actions.

Your observations are simply an opinion of your perspective again i think you should be more open minded without being offensive and attacking and recognising that the so called apparent naked version might not be what you think. Can you explain this naked version, what makes you so sure this understanding is right? Im curious

BTW Evidence is to be sort for, its not spoon fed or put on a platter for you.

Also your understanding of islam i.e. possibility of prophet married 9 yr old bla bla. You claim you reject hadith but you still hold on to views largely supported by opinion. The idea of her being 9 years old is disputed even amongst traditionalists. so why do you want to hold on to hearsay?

before making absolute claims and totally rejecting peoples perspectives because it might seem laughable or odd, try and digest it.

huruf

Addition I have the impression that Quranists( I know it sounds deragatory, but you get the point) desperately want to hold on to their idealized view of Muhammed as being a very kind, civilized, smart person, also by now era's standards. As a consequence, they consider all hadiths which says that, e.g. , he ordered a stoning, he ordered the killing of 900 Jews of Banu Qurayza, he made racist/sexist remarks about women, he married a nine year old girl, etc etc, as being unreliable. Indeed, a true prophet of God would never do those.
However, don't you ever think of the possibility that he might have done those things..!

You are projecting. That is what you feel yourself, and you seem to be unwilling to grasp that anybody can feel any different.

You expect too much from the Qur'an in the sense that you in fact expect some more sunni or shia, or whatever stuff, where you are told absolutely everything and you do not want to think anything for yourself, and if the Qur'an doesn't come up with something short of magic you think there is nothing to it. Of course there is nothing to it, except the uncountable times it asks humans to reflect, ponder, think, question... What did you expect? A computer encyclopedia where you look up a word and you get everything you need? Of course the Qur'an won't give you that. Life will give you that in its own time, as you go on living, not taking any orders from you. There is nothing in the Qur'an more marvelous than what is in existence. If you do not see any signs in everything that exists, in existence itself, then don't bother to look for anything in the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells you to reflect on the signs outside and inside. If you do not want to do that, or you don't get anything out of doing it, then that is your problem, if it is a problem for you.

As to the eternity of hell and all that, it is really useless to go on round and round about it. Man is incapable of grasping such a thing as eternity, it can never be anything other than a mere word to stress a duration longer than we bear to think, and besides, only God is eternal, nothing else can be eternal. Neither paradise nor hell. And as far as I am concerned, and what I get when I read those expressions in the Qu'an concerning hardened evil doers is merely what we all say about hardened criminals let them rot in jail, or let them rot in hell. Pretty straight forward and colloquial. What do we know about what is beyond or how will one feels, or what will the time concept be or whether there will be anything like time? How will omelettes be after death? it is useless to try to make a coherent world on something whose substance totally escapes us. Who says "abadan" means eternity? Abadan is abadan, eternity and eternal hell are christian concepts. I doubt that that is a Quranic concept or a concept that was intrinsic to Arabic at the time of revelation. More like what I say, rot in hell, that is, live in hell long enough or deep enough to to taste you own evilness, to grasp where you went wrong and feel sorry for it. Or what else does rot in jail mean? Realise that what you did to others can be done to you. You are putting into the Qur'an the whole load of Christian teological tradition and culture. Are you absoutely sure that it belongs in the Qur'an? That traiditionalists put the same christian reading is no wonder either, for what was there at the time the Qur'an was revealed? Obviously many, many christians. Is it a wonder that contamination from it, from zoroastrianism, from Judaism took place, as later there has also been contamination fom hinduism, etc.? Plenty of stories that make the rounds among muslims are clearly not from the Qur'an and even contradict it. So how come they are so taken for granted by muslims even though there is no way that they come from the Qur'an or that they are even not compatible? Becuse they were around, have been arount and got around and inside the Mulims culture. Why tose stories can get incorporated in Muslims culture and not eternal hell? Do not think that I am trying to convince you of anything. I know nobody is gong to convince you. You rather want to be reassured that youa re right in not believing, and not be convinced, and it is not my business, but these occasions are good to go through some themes and may be get more clarity those who want it.

At any rate, excuse me if I am blunt, but what you are doing looks to me like mental masturbation. You are getting nowhere but you seem to need some witnesses for your not getting anywhere. Why? We have no miracles to show you nor are we going to tell you "that's ok, you are right, in fact there is nothing divine about the Qur'an, it is a human writing and we are gullible and we are just kids that need being patted and deluded. As the Qur'an says, you have your religion, we have ours, whatever you have as religi?n or even if you do not call it religion. But it is yours and it is you problem, not ours. So, feel as much disappointed with Qur'an as you please, but there stops the buck, everybody is not disappointed so that you have company. It seems that we are a few that are not disappointed with the Qur'an and find clarity in it.

Salaam

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and peace, all group

It is true that Islam based on Qur'an only is simpler than that of different schools of thought. Monotheism is based on a simple structure that only relates to what we need to know to please the Highest Power.

If a person believes that a Highest Power exists, and that the Highest Power gives or has given instructions for people to follow, wouldn't those instructions be easy to follow? Religion boils down to the golden rule. Simple, but sublime. For those with questions--"Have you appealed directly to the Highest Power for clarification and help?"

Does a thing have to be complicated to make it true? Who would wish for complication in such an important matter?! What untruths are in AQ? I find AQ to be extremely logical--very appealing.

All are welcome on this site, regardless of beliefs. ;D Participation is optional, beliefs are individual, and the wish to live in a manner that pleases the Highest Power is universal. sun

May Allah increase us all in faith and useful knowledge.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

justamuslim

I remember a time when I asked a lot of questions. A lot. I wasn't an atheist. But had a lot of questions about the Koran and such. I was listening to neuroanatomy lecture when what I heard struck me as I remember reading the same exact thing in the Koran. Considering the time and age, without question no man could've written the Koran as simply people did not have the knowledge then as we do now. I am yet to read any poetry or book by men that even comes close to matching the language of the Koran.

By the way, being a sci-fi fan of star trek and such, I questioned if it was some alien who well came up with all this book to scare people into behaving. I questioned God's wisdom, knowledge....If God was all knowing, surely He would've known how people will react if a baby spoke from the cradle, and then grew up to cure leprosy, bring the dead to life and then question Jesus? Why bother with all these scriptures? My questions were many....

and there was even a time when I threw the Koran aiming for the garbage (was in a really bad place in my life full of anger, hurt, pain etc) questioning God's characteristics. 'blasphamous rumor' by depeche mode was a song that listened to over and over again.

needless to say, I did not come to accept the Koran easily as the word of God. And I will be the first to bear witness to the Koran. Truly the best way to live your life is to follow the scriptures. I have not read the Torah (simply don't have the time and also don't really need to). The bible has been adulterated by men and so Koran is what I turn to. I follow Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah.

I am what you call a BELIEVER.

Faithful-Jinn

Anyway, my problem as mentioned in the topictitel is the following Without seerah/hadiths/authority-of-ulema(madhap etc), there is just nothing left of Islam..! Hadiths contain lots of BS, but the same is true for the Qur'an. The following are just simpel observations I made about the Qur'an

Many ayats are repetitions.
Many ayats are about the kuffaar(What's ur interpretation of "KFR"?) , and the grave punishment which awaits them. Certainly doesn't make a good case in convincing me that it is divine(Why so many threats?)
Many ayats are about fairy tales ( Contrary to "ordinary" Muslims, I don't expect you to be easily offended, but I mean the stories of the "former prophets".. (cf Surahi Fil(Elephant), the destruction of former tribes, Noahs flood.. No different than the Greek mythology for me..)
Many surahs are about shariah(laws). But here again Just a few compared to the vast collection of do's and dont's of Sunnism. And many of those laws don't make sense nowadays. (CUtting of hands ISS in the Qur'an,- don't try to find a loophole by endless "re"interpreting !)
------ and I could go on.

As I can't see myself believing in the tenets of Islam,- even the most naked version of it, I have even lost the possibilty of becoming a "Qur'anist".
Kind regards,

So what do you want from any of us? You said yourself the Qur'an is full of BS in your opinion. LOL at there not being anything left of Islam without the hadith are you serious? So you're telling me until the hadith and the ulema existed/gained any authority in the 8th/9th century there was no real Islam?

I'm not going to waste trying to convert you to Islam or to believe in the Quran but I will paraphrase what I gain from the parable of the soil from the New Testament

Basically Jesus says there is someone sowing seeds. The seeds are sowed on different types of soil.

The parable of the soils describes what becomes of seed that is sown in four different types of soil. The first type of soil is the hardened soil of the pathway. This seed does not penetrate the soil at all, but is quickly snatched up by the birds of the air. The second type of soil is the rocky soil, a shallow layer of earth, barely covering the rock below. The seed which falls upon this type of soil quickly germinates, aided by the warmth retained by the rock, but hindered by a lack of depth and by a lack of moisture. The seed which germinates quickly also terminates quickly. The third soil is the thorny soil, a soil populated with thorns. The seed falling into this soil germinates and begins to grow, but is eventually crowded out by the hardier thorns. The fourth soil is the fruitful soil, that soil which produces a bountiful crop. Having told the story, Jesus put an exclamation point after it by adding these words

The seeds represent the seeds of God's grace or revelation which will grow into the fruits of our faith and deeds and lead us to heaven. The first type of soil represents the person who has never heard the word of God or refuses to open their hearts to God and so the seeds are eaten by birds.
The second type of soil represents someone who accepts God's word on a superficial or shallow level with no deep or true understanding and their faith has the appearance of beginning to grow but in a short time the small sprout quickly died.
The third type of soil represents someone who accepts God's word but allows the things of this world to get in the way and distract them from focusing on the hereafter and obstruct their faith, hence their seeds become tangled in thorns.
The fourth type of soil represents one who hears the word of God and believes with all their heart in the hereafter and lets nothing remove them from the path of righteousness and so they will enjoy the fruits of their deeds in paradise.

The point of the parable is that it is not the seeds that are unfit or defunct but the earth that receives them.

justamuslim

the Koran does say that here are those who will read the Koran and turn to disbelief, calling it nothing but fable, poetry.

sonnie

7172 "Recall that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this."

Cosmos,
Deep down inside you must have a tendency to believe...in God...in the unseen...in something... Once you realize that, it will be clear that the Qur'an is the best guide (although Buddhism is up there as well D). If you disagree, please show me a better/truer guide to life.

P.S.
Salaam and Welcome! welcome

Mutazilaah

I would like to identify myself with being a skeptic. <

Advice Try to identify yourself as a philosopher (vs just a skeptic).

My parents/environment are all Sunnis, and quite devout. <

Mine too (a version of Sunnism, just like yours)

In other words Extremely conservative, and all others are destined for Hell. (Quranists are seen even worse than Kuffaar(=non Muslims) as you consider yourself Muslim, while clearly(to many) you are not.) <

I think their definition of Islam and Muslim are flawed. I think just like Muslim and Islam go, so do other terms, as in Mu'min (believer) and Iman (belief/faith) or Taqwa (piety) and Mu'taqi (a pious person) ... Submission to God or submission to the Divine will (Islam) and one who submits (Muslim) would be seen in the same light. These are Divine principles that individuals strive for, they are not labels. Looking at it another way, as water evaporates, precipitates and condensates in its cycle, what it is doing is submitting to the will of Allah (swt). It is glorifying God by way of Islam (submission to the Divine will). However with our species is the mysterious personal and subjective consciousness and intelligence that can decipher truth from error using a mind that then applies the scientific method and also in instances receives divine intuition and revelation. What is your definition of Islam? An organized religion or a Divine principle? Abraham and Moses were Muslims, not because they prayed 5 times a day ritually and fasted in Ramadhan but because they submitted to the Divine.

Anyway, my problem as mentioned in the topictitel is the following Without seerah/hadiths/authority-of-ulema(madhap etc), there is just nothing left of Islam..! Hadiths contain lots of BS, but the same is true for the Qur'an. The following are just simpel observations I made about the Qur'an <

In my school of Kalam or Ilm-al-Kalam, we don't need seerah/hadith/ulema etc. The two sources we use are the Qur'an - Divine revelation and the Aql - or mind; i.e. rationality ... however if tradition (sunnah) is what you seek, then know that there were Quran only Muslims in the second and third generations of Muslims that we know of who did not follow the Ahadith of the Fuqaha (Jurists) and Muhaditheen (Scholars of Sunni Ahadith). The Shi'a also did not follow the edicts of the 4 Sunni Jurists - Hanbal, Hanafi, Shafi'i, Mailiki, nor did they accept the biased Ahadith narrated and collected by their followers. The entire sanad is biased as it narrated only according to narrators that were theologically acceptable to them and their ways). This Qur'an only group who followed the Quran and Rationality were known as the Mu'tazilah. Look em up.

As far as not understanding verses of the Qur'an, your problem is rooted in the fact that you neither speak Fusah Arabic nor do understand the parables and metaphors that make up the spirit of the poetic verses. Bring your verses if you want.

Many ayats are about the kuffaar(What's ur interpretation of "KFR"?) , and the grave punishment which awaits them. Certainly doesn't make a good case in convincing me that it is divine(Why so many threats?) <

There are different levels of iman (faith/belief) as there are different levels of kufr (disbelief/denier). Kufr or disbelief could be in a number of things including God, or even denying facts, whether theological facts, scientific facts, logic etc. Kufr is not always a bad thing. There is a second definition that says kufr means to 'cover up' or hide ... i.e. deny the truth even though it is apparent.

Also, I do not see them as threats, I see them as warnings for natural, self-inflicting consequences. For example, your choices in this world have consequences, both good and bad. I think those who have the advantage of inner-spiritual connections with the divine have a higher potential for positive or good experiences.

Many ayats are about fairy tales ( Contrary to "ordinary" Muslims, I don't expect you to be easily offended, but I mean the stories of the "former prophets".. (cf Surahi Fil(Elephant), the destruction of former tribes, Noahs flood.. No different than the Greek mythology for me..) <<

Well those stories could be 'made-up' stories but metaphors that are supposed to be used for reflection. Even Adam and Eve could be a metaphor with a message? Perhaps evolution is real and Adam and Eve is simply a concept that we are supposed to understand to help us better our spiritual and moral lives. And you know what? Maybe Native American Folk tales or Greek mythology has inner-messages to ponder over as well?

Many surahs are about shariah(laws). But here again Just a few compared to the vast collection of do's and dont's of Sunnism. And many of those laws don't make sense nowadays. (CUtting of hands ISS in the Qur'an,- don't try to find a loophole by endless "re"interpreting !) <<

You would have to try and look at the spirit of the message instead of the letter (i.e. stop taking stuff literally) because the immediate audience of the Quran were seventh century Arabs not 21st century Americans (like me) and then you will be able to see how 'shariah laws' are no longer carved in stone rather the idea that one arrives at, for example stealing is bad, alcohol and gambling can lead to problems but there are benefits to it, eating of the pig meat is unhealthy for you (would suggest that we eat healthy and clean things) etc. ... once we put the Quran in context with its time-period and immediate audience we can understand how many of the verses applied to 7th century Arabs receiving this message but as humanity progressed the spirit of the message and its application can still be practical. Stealing should still be punished. Monogamy should be encouraged etc.

As I can't see myself believing in the tenets of Islam,- even the most naked version of it, I have even lost the possibilty of becoming a "Qur'anist".
Kind regards, <<

Maybe you need to see Islam not as an organized religion but a divine principle. Maybe you need to understand that Sunni Islam is not the true religion.

CitizenDerCosmos

Hi there, thanks again for your precious comments and advice..
The issue is that I've been told(you can call it brainwashed) that MY and ONLY my version of Islam( i.e. some branch of Sunnism) is right, and all the others are wrong. I remember being told about the "73 factions" hadith,- 73 different (Islamic) factions/denominations etc will emerge, but only 1 will lead to real success , only one is the best path to the Lord. (Some Sunnis, though, reject this hadith as being weak.)
One of the most cited examples of one of those factions which went astray was of the Mu'tazilah (I saw your post hereabove, that reminds me..).
Mu'tazilah is known to pay more attention to logic and reason, and , although I am not that well-informed, I think that Qur'an-only does have quite some characteristics in common with the Mu'tazilah, and related sects who give reason+logic more importance than the traditionalists.

Anyway, I will be hanging around this site for some more time, who knows perhaps I will begin to understand what this is all about and why I should (re)consider taking the Qur'an more seriously in my life. Because I know there is something in me which wants to believe,- living with the knowledge that this wordly life is everything and that Divine Justice and an hereafter doesn't exist freaks the hell out of me.

Mutazilaah

Hey Citizen, Asalaamu alaykum,

The issue is that I've been told(you can call it brainwashed) that MY and ONLY my version of Islam( i.e. some branch of Sunnism) is right, and all the others are wrong. <<

Well we can prove to whoever told you that that they are Quranically wrong. The Quran talks about sectarianism and division at length.

I think that Qur'an-only does have quite some characteristics in common with the Mu'tazilah <<

The Mu'tazilah were Quran only Muslims. They denied the sunnah, fiqh and ahadith of the Sunni Muslims. I can provide you with more details about this history if you'd like to know it?

Because I know there is something in me which wants to believe,- living with the knowledge that this wordly life is everything and that Divine Justice and an hereafter doesn't exist freaks the hell out of me. <<

This is the spirit of philosophy - that is to figure it all out using science, logic, and whatever sources are available to us. Another part of the spirit of philosophy has to do with us humbling ourselves to the point where we must admit that we are truly ignorant and can only work off of what information and knowledge we accumulate while we are alive.

Hope you ask more questions! Also read my previous message to you more than once, perhaps it might help enlighten you. -)

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and peace, all group

I remember being told about the "73 factions" hadith,- 73 different (Islamic) factions/denominations etc will emerge, but only 1 will lead to real success , only one is the best path to the Lord.

Sure, the one TRUE path is the path of monotheism! ;D Of course, the 73 factions thing is from hadith in the first place...

May Allah grant us all increase in useful knowledge

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

harris

Without seerah/hadiths/authority-of-ulema(madhap etc), there is just nothing left of Islam..! Hadiths contain lots of BS, but the same is true for the Qur'an.

Salaam citizen,
It is unfortunate that you compare the Holy Quran with those hadiths and categorize both as BS in the same breath. One cannot coerce anyone in religion ofcourse, but if you really search for the truth, you will find irrefutable evidence that the author of the Book is the Creator almighty Himself. Once you have accepted this evidence, then you would have no choice but to accept every word in the Book however illogical it sounds to you right now.

I would only like to remind you that the Holy Quran is a guide to live righteously. You may follow it or not, that's a risk you take. If you choose to reject It, there is a higher probability that you would fall into bad influences, forget your true purpose and waste your life away.

In the end, only He knows who can be accepted back into His kingdom. (read sura 262)

Peace. May He guide us all in the straight path.

Emil

Hi there, thanks again for your precious comments and advice..
The issue is that I've been told(you can call it brainwashed) that MY and ONLY my version of Islam( i.e. some branch of Sunnism) is right, and all the others are wrong. I remember being told about the "73 factions" hadith,- 73 different (Islamic) factions/denominations etc will emerge, but only 1 will lead to real success , only one is the best path to the Lord. (Some Sunnis, though, reject this hadith as being weak.)
One of the most cited examples of one of those factions which went astray was of the Mu'tazilah (I saw your post hereabove, that reminds me..).
Mu'tazilah is known to pay more attention to logic and reason, and , although I am not that well-informed, I think that Qur'an-only does have quite some characteristics in common with the Mu'tazilah, and related sects who give reason+logic more importance than the traditionalists.

Anyway, I will be hanging around this site for some more time, who knows perhaps I will begin to understand what this is all about and why I should (re)consider taking the Qur'an more seriously in my life. Because I know there is something in me which wants to believe,- living with the knowledge that this wordly life is everything and that Divine Justice and an hereafter doesn't exist freaks the hell out of me.

Salaam Citizen

I haven't read the entire thread, I kind of got stuck with your comments only since I thought they were interesting, and eventhough I don't speak arabic I have been battling with almost the same questions.

Cutting off hands - Ok, we are to cut off the hands off thieves.....wait, is that really what Allah wants us to do? To hurt eachother? Does that feel good in your heart? What if the thief is your father and you are the judge? That puts you in a dilemma, or not? Eventhough it clearly states that we are to be cruel to thieves, isn't our interpretation wrong of the meaning of the words rather than the words themselves? Maybe it is for future generations to understand, not for us.

Prophet Muhammed being a bad guy according to the hadith - Yeah, so? He was a man of his time and did what people did. We cannot use our 2010 morality to judge him because we didn't live in 600. What if he did all those bad things. Maybe not, maybe so. But should the Quran be judged because of this?

Kuffar - A disbeliever, someone who doesnt believe it is your right to believe. Is a buddhist a disbeliever? No. Is a buddhist who tries to stop you from believing what you want to believe a disbeliever? Yes. There are not many disbelievers in our world, but some names are Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot....

If you believe that honouring your parents, being kind to orphans, letting people have freedom and other moral rules that can be found in the Quran as BS, then OK, the Quran is BS for you. But if you do not believe that, then are you not being a bit hypocritical?

wildguest1956

Anyway, I will be hanging around this site for some more time, who knows perhaps I will begin to understand what this is all about and why I should (re)consider taking the Qur'an more seriously in my life. Because I know there is something in me which wants to believe,- living with the knowledge that this wordly life is everything and that Divine Justice and an hereafter doesn't exist freaks the hell out of me.

Without the belief in God and in the hereafter, the belief that good deeds will be rewarded and bad deeds will be punished; there is no incentive to act good.

So atheism leads to egoism, acting in order to get rewards by the society ; that is, some king of slavery. In an atheistic world, we are slave to our desires, which are shaped by the pressures of the society, which are driven by multinational corporations.

The core message of the Quran is just that one should believe in God and in the hereafter, and act good.
To be a slave of God implies refusing to be a slave of anything else. It just means you are free.

Peace

Abdun_Nur

Salaam CitizenDerCosmos,

I'm a cosmopolite myself, I have no interest in the confusions of others in the present or the past, until you approach the evidence with a clean mind you will never understand Islam, I read comments and advice on this thread that were filled with unclean ideas and confusions, very basic ones, but the contaminations within their own minds would make it extremely difficult for them to shed these confusions within themselves.

Take religion, clearly the Qur'an condemns every and all religion as worthless, something to avoid, and ask us to establish the Deen of Islam, yet how few reject every and all religion as directed, almost none, does that make the Qur'an wrong?

The majority have inherited the perversions of the original Arabic from the people of the past, who desired a usurious existence so altered the meanings of the words to conform to the perversions of their own mind, so they take the word Deen and re-define it to mean religion for example.

My advice, if you indeed wish to understand your purpose and function within the fabric of the universe, is to investigate and establish for yourself the true definitions and original meaning of the text within the Qur'an, and not to take the rubbish of the religious with you in your investigations.

If you find the Qur'an is indeed filled with rubbish, bad advice and contradictions, I for one would be interested in reading about your findings, I am myself searching the Qur'an, I have little interest in the so called historical verses, I have dismissed them out of hand for the present, superficially considering them profound corruptions of the text, this means I can investigate what I feel to be the true importance of the Qur'an the Deen itself.

The understanding of the structure of society we must establish and exist within to be at peace, to allow ourselves and those around us to expand and develop in every attribute they have within themselves, making a society to create a deep, thoughtful, generous and compassionate community, a place I long to exist within, as Allah has programmed us to that end.

You are welcome to read the four models of society suggested within the Qur'an posted on my website

http//servantofthelight.com/

The four models are
Allodial ownership
Polycentric community
Human energy economics
Common law

Another simple rule of thumb I apply, if it is a concept shared by Christians it is generally wrong, so investigate the concepts the Qur'an truly applies, for example Good and Bad, heaven and hell, punishment and revenge are all Christian concepts, not Qur'anic.

Jahannam is not a place of punishment, but a place of education, as Allah makes nothing idly, it is not a system of hate, pettiness, revenge and torment, it is a system of compassion, love, generosity and purpose.

The reason humanity suffers in this world is a direct result of religion, the God personification, the heaven in the sky, all derive from the original sun worshiping, adopted by the Christians, who infest the minds of humanity with the blind faith in accepting their lies; worship and adoration of buildings, dead men and religious parasites, you should consider why would Allah require your worship, what would be the purpose of prayer?

It is simply a construct of the religious to live usuriously upon the people, this is the reason the Qur'an does not present worship and prayer because its an invention of the religious parasites.

Emil

Take religion, clearly the Qur'an condemns every and all religion as worthless, something to avoid, and ask us to establish the Deen of Islam, yet how few reject every and all religion as directed, almost none, does that make the Qur'an wrong?

Salaam

Where does it clearly condemn all religion? Are you talking about religion as a religious person would see it or do you mean that the Quran condemns the real meaning of religion?

Abdun_Nur

Salaam Emil,

well although the translations are inadequate I will use the predominant interpretations

Surah 6159
Indeed, those who have divided their Deen and become sects, you are not with them in anything. Their affair is only to Allah; then they will be informed about what they used to do.

Surah 319
Indeed, the Deen in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the book (Qur'an) did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves.

Surah 385
And whoever desires other than Islam as Deen - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Surah 395
Say, " Allah has told the truth. So follow what a group of people believe and practice for a long time as Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of the polytheists."

This is a little of the idea, but I will post more when I have a few minutes, no religion only the Deen - system or structure of society to exist within (Bayta).

aynur

Without the belief in God and in the hereafter, the belief that good deeds will be rewarded and bad deeds will be punished; there is no incentive to act good.

I disagree (respectfully).
There is a lot that is passed down on us from society (kind of like you mentioned, but I'm talking about what is considered acceptable behavior or not) - and how we are raised by our parents definitely shapes us. I believe that there is also something internal, placed there by God - that is our barometer of whether or not something is good. There is an incentive to act good to feel at peace with yourself.