Why Quran only is not a viable alternative to mainstream Islam(Sunnism)

Edip_Yuksel

Anyway, to come back to my openingsquestion Quran-only movement won't hold it out,- indeed by almost all other Muslims you are considered apostates. Quran-only is the last chance to "rationalize" Islam,- a major blow to Islam in which >99% of Islamic literature is all rejected/deemed unreliable.

I am not sure about your motives, but obviously you have no respect to the Quran. Here are my short answers.

I care less whether the majority of Sunni or Shiite people accept or reject the message of monotheism (one God, that is one source; not God + Muhammad + This + That imam). As the Quran reminds us numerous times, the truth has its own value and it is priceless. The abundance of dirt should not impress us.
Islam does not need rationalization, since it is rational. If you have problem with rationality of islam, you need to check your prejudices and dogmas. What about starting the verse 10100.
This movement is the only chance for Muslims to get out of darkness of ignorance.
The movement is now in its fourth stage and receiving momentum.x
"It is just pathetic that ALL those thousands of ulemaa all had it completely wrong... And here we are back at one of the strongest arguments of traditional Muslims.. Appeal to authority." This statement proves your own pathetic level of critical thinking. The same appeal to the crowd is used by Christianity to justify Trinity and many other innovations. As for ALL, many of real ulamas were considered HERETIC by Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties and were punished. What about starting using your own brain instead of appealing to clergymen supported by corrupt and oppressive kings?

Peace,

CitizenDerCosmos

Dear Edip, I feel honoured to get a reply from you, as you, being my (unfortunately self-exiled) countryman. I applaud your efforts to break through the thick barriers of dogma, intellectual laziness and bigotry, and I am with you in this struggle for freedom of speech and thought.
However, this is as for as our common values we share, as I go just one step further and also reject the Qur'an. I am an apostate, formerly a Sunni, and for more or less the same reasons I lost my faith in the ahadith , I also regard the Qur'an nothing more than a book with some advices, guidances and parables by and for seventh century Arabia. I have investigated some of your ( and other Quraniites) evidences of why we should take the Qur'an (and only that) as our basis of this life, however I was disappointed by your arguments.
For instance, the whole idea of "19" just doesn't make any sense. The late Khalifa sure was handy in using computers to find patterns, but for me this is just coincidence. There are lots of numbers(not just 19) and there are many ways to "see" 19 in some ayat/verse number etc. (the ayat number , surah number, sum of those, product of those, juxtaposing them, add this sura to that sura subtract ... ). No,- it's certainly not convincing.
In one of your articles you tell us how sometimes you have had the same struggles,- I am very sure you too have struggled(are struggling?) with the most fundamental question regarding the Qur'an Is it divine or is it written by men? Regarding this question I am on the different side.
I don't think you use Occam's Razor when you project your own views on the Qur'an, instead of going with the most straightforward meaning (For examples Translation of "beat your wives"," cut their hands", "they will be in hell for ever", "their skin will be replaces and this torture will go on for ever" etc).

Wakas

I don't think you use Occam's Razor when you project your own views on the Qur'an, instead of going with the most straightforward meaning (For examples Translation of "beat your wives"," cut their hands", "they will be in hell for ever", "their skin will be replaces and this torture will go on for ever" etc).

Do you?

Abdun_Nur

Salaam Wakas,

the guy CitizenDerCosmos seems to be a moron, he makes no sense, he is deeply inept in logic, as Edip points out, he has no grasp of reason at all, it is a pointless task presenting logical arguments to person incapable of rational thought.

Prince

Jahannam is not a place of punishment, but a place of education, as Allah makes nothing idly, it is not a system of hate, pettiness, revenge and torment, it is a system of compassion, love, generosity and purpose.

Salaam Abdun.

Can you provide me with your analysis of the quran on how you come to the conclusion that jahannam is not a place of punishment but a place of education. Thank you.

PEACE

CitizenDerCosmos

the guy CitizenDerCosmos seems to be a moron, he makes no sense, he is deeply inept in logic, as Edip points out, he has no grasp of reason at all, it is a pointless task presenting logical arguments to person incapable of rational thought.

Salam Abdunnur,
Thanks for your compliments. yay We all need to be reminded how delusional and irrational we all can get, however as I have previously pointed out I have the same sort of doubts regarding your( and Edip's, and Dr. Khalifa's..) methods regarding interpreting the Qur'an. It shouldn't be a problem that we disagree with one and other, but we all must have the commitment to always seek the truth.
Let me illustrate what I said When you say that , contrary to the idea many Muslims aswell as non-Muslims get when they read the Qur'an, you claim that Jahannam is not a place of eternall torture and suffering, but a place where evil doers /criminals will be "rehabilitated" and in which they fully become aware of their sins, till they paid back , repaired the evil they did and fully understood the consequences. Sounds good! ! This is indeed what people would expect a civilized, mannered Lord would do. (Let alone the Lord, the sole Creator of the Universe and what more..)
However, when I, or countless others (non) Muslims read the Qur'an, (JUST the Qur'an, not the tafseers, or the ahadith or..), I can't escape the immense hatred and intolerance towards the "kuffaar" (deliberately not translating it as this is what the whole issue revolves around). Allah describes the immense torture and suffering those kuffaar will undergo, and any doubt about misinterpreting (it is already quite clear, but assume..) will be faded away by the ahadith and the many works of the former Ulama.

One of your most favourite arguments is the "hey! You appeal to authority, are you not aware of the maltreatment of Qur'an only Muslims in e.g. the Amawids of the Abbasids periods?&quot. You have a point there, we can't appeal to authority unconditionally BUT it DOES show something, namely that YOU as a "deviant" sect must show extraordinary evidences to support your highly metaphorical, non-mainstream translation of the Qur'an. In which you failed miserably With all due respect to the late Khalifa and his followers, I simply laughed at the desperate attempts by Khalifa to find some ''hidden" code/message in the Qur'an, of which the sole purpose was to prove it is from God (instead of giving answers to any questions..) All of those attempts can be dismissed if anyone has had some basic probability theory (endless manipulations of verse number, ayat number, sum of those, product, difference..) will almost surely give you some "hidden message". (c.f. the Moby Dick prophecies.)
It made my think of... The answer to life, the universe, . everything... is 42 yeah

Edip_Yuksel

Dear Edip, I feel honoured to get a reply from you, as you, being my (unfortunately self-exiled) countryman. I applaud your efforts to break through the thick barriers of dogma, intellectual laziness and bigotry, and I am with you in this struggle for freedom of speech and thought.
However, this is as for as our common values we share, as I go just one step further and also reject the Qur'an. I am an apostate, formerly a Sunni, and for more or less the same reasons I lost my faith in the ahadith , I also regard the Qur'an nothing more than a book with some advices, guidances and parables by and for seventh century Arabia. I have investigated some of your ( and other Quraniites) evidences of why we should take the Qur'an (and only that) as our basis of this life, however I was disappointed by your arguments.
For instance, the whole idea of "19" just doesn't make any sense. The late Khalifa sure was handy in using computers to find patterns, but for me this is just coincidence. There are lots of numbers(not just 19) and there are many ways to "see" 19 in some ayat/verse number etc. (the ayat number , surah number, sum of those, product of those, juxtaposing them, add this sura to that sura subtract ... ). No,- it's certainly not convincing.
In one of your articles you tell us how sometimes you have had the same struggles,- I am very sure you too have struggled(are struggling?) with the most fundamental question regarding the Qur'an Is it divine or is it written by men? Regarding this question I am on the different side.
I don't think you use Occam's Razor when you project your own views on the Qur'an, instead of going with the most straightforward meaning (For examples Translation of "beat your wives"," cut their hands", "they will be in hell for ever", "their skin will be replaces and this torture will go on for ever" etc).

Dear Citizen

Witnessing the extraordinary sign of 19 is a strange phenomenon; it is in itself a prophetic process well described in 7430-31. Witnessing the sign of 19, has some objective and subjective conditions. For example, as you cannot witness a computer generated random-dot 3-D picture with one eye closed or from too far or from too close, similarly you cannot witness this great miracle if you do not satisfy the pre-requisites. Unconditional interest in finding the truth without worrying what others would think is one of them. As it seems, one of your shortcomings might be your weakness against "the authorities" and "crowds" and some problems with your logic board. (I teach logic for living and I could test your logical integrity privately if you wish). But, there could be some other subtle problems with your approach to the issue, which determines whether you can witness the nineteen or not.

I have just finished NINETEEN God's Signature in Nature and Scripture and inshallah it will be available to public within 30-40 days.

I will also publish the revised and expanded version of Running Like Zebras, where you will find many good discussions on this subject.

As for your Occam's Razor, it does not work well. I recommend you to read an article published at Skeptic magazine to see the short coming of this razor. For instance, if we use that razor consistently it will shave off the complicated and convoluted theory of evolution.

Since you are not questioning the why a particular meaning appear to be "straightforward" for you, I won't be able to discuss those three phrases with you. It is my experience that when I discuss with an atheist I usually ending up discussing against a SUNNI + ATHEIST, which is very difficult task since the Atheist does not know that he or she is influenced by the Sunni dogmas, traditions, and understanding of words and phrases.

For instance, when I discuss Muhammad's marriage to the divorced wife of his adopted son against atheists' criticism, upon investigation, I discover that they condemn incest as an immoral act without even knowing that such a negative view of incest emanates from their religious background.

In other words, if you can promise me that you will be able to discuss the issue as an atheist, not as an amalgamated strange critic, not as a SUNNI-ATHEIST, then we might be able to carry out a decent and productive argument. Otherwise, like many other atheists, you will be dancing between Sunnism and Atheism without predictable pattern. I am an old man and I cannot dance that well )

Peace,
Edip

CitizenDerCosmos

I have just finished NINETEEN God's Signature in Nature and Scripture and inshallah it will be available to public within 30-40 days.

I am looking forward to this book. Even though I don't (yet) agree with your views, I am curious about them. However, I have posted my objections, and I expect you to answer my arguments in detail. Anyway, it is an objective FACT that the Qur'an is a very ambigious piece of work, proven time and time again by the enormous amount of different explanations, interpretations and commentaries about the Qur'an. A work supposedly clear oughted to be debunked centuries ago when it became clear how such a simple verse like " cut their hands" could be read like "mark (?) their hands/let them repair the damage they caused" etc.
Kind regards,
Citizen

loxbox13

I am looking forward to this book. Even though I don't (yet) agree with your views, I am curious about them. However, I have posted my objections, and I expect you to answer my arguments in detail. Anyway, it is an objective FACT that the Qur'an is a very ambigious piece of work, proven time and time again by the enormous amount of different explanations, interpretations and commentaries about the Qur'an. A work supposedly clear oughted to be debunked centuries ago when it became clear how such a simple verse like " cut their hands" could be read like "mark (?) their hands/let them repair the damage they caused" etc.
Kind regards,
Citizen

I agree with u in some words wich are straightforward, like punishement forever, i don't see another meaning unless arabic isn't no mmore the old arabic of the times when the quran came to existance, but there is a difference in the cutt off their hands

QUattia , the T has shadda , therefore it only means cutt off
while in the verse of thiefs, there is no shadda on the T , so it doesn't mean cutt off, the sames way as Aktiaa the street, it doesn't mean cutt off the road, but cross it, thses are two words that differenciate with shadda on the T , therefore one is litteral cutt of, and the other is not. and the verse of the thiefs isn't cutt off. as simple as that
code19 pattern, i believe there is a pattern for 19 , but not that far, or that deep, people get fascinated by it, but i don't get fascinated by numbers, numbers are just numbers, guidance is in the text . and i can't understand what 19 has to do with the universe, i thaught the golden ration is 1.6

Faithful-Jinn

I just want to add in that not all of us believe about the number 19 stuff or Dr. Khalifa I personally think he's a false prophet and the number 19 business is bull.

Following the Qur'an only has nothing to do with the number 19 for me personally and I think the number 19 business hurts the Qur'an alone movement for all of us who reject hadith to be affiliated or connected to Dr. Khalifa and his craziness.. I simply read and follow the Qur'an.

loxbox13

I just want to add in that not all of us believe about the number 19 stuff or Dr. Khalifa I personally think he's a false prophet and the number 19 business is bull.

Following the Qur'an only has nothing to do with the number 19 for me personally and I think the number 19 business hurts the Qur'an alone movement for all of us who reject hadith to be affiliated or connected to Dr. Khalifa and his craziness.. I simply read and follow the Qur'an.

Du you think if you find the way and follow the quran only we won't be tested ?
as soon as u find the quran only, u will find khalifa in front of u , and code19 , and manipulations, and arguments, and people try to convince u , and those who are convinced, most of them stick with 19 holy number, and worship khalifa, but if u stick to the quran alone and u pass this fitna, than u follow quran alone, if u fail in this test, u become rashad and code19 follower, no more quran alone follower
I don't believe at all in khalifa too, i almost did though, and code19 is just a number, all numbers that exist are god's and are a sign, not only 19, there is no holy number, the only holy is god.
peace

Edip_Yuksel

I agree with u in some words wich are straightforward, like punishement forever, i don't see another meaning unless arabic isn't no mmore the old arabic of the times when the quran came to existance, but there is a difference in the cutt off their hands

QUattia , the T has shadda , therefore it only means cutt off
while in the verse of thiefs, there is no shadda on the T , so it doesn't mean cutt off, the sames way as Aktiaa the street, it doesn't mean cutt off the road, but cross it, thses are two words that differenciate with shadda on the T , therefore one is litteral cutt of, and the other is not. and the verse of the thiefs isn't cutt off. as simple as that
code19 pattern, i believe there is a pattern for 19 , but not that far, or that deep, people get fascinated by it, but i don't get fascinated by numbers, numbers are just numbers, guidance is in the text . and i can't understand what 19 has to do with the universe, i thaught the golden ration is 1.6

Your theory based on Shadda does not hold for at least two reasons

Shadda cannot be substantiated by the oldest available text of the Quran; it is a later innovation like other dietrical marks. Shadda reflects a particular reading, and usually they are shaped after the teaching of sects and hadith reports.
The word QaT'A in verse 1231, which does not mean "cut-off" but a simple cut/mark by accident, yes, that verb too is conventionally or traditionally read with Shadda.

If you look at the Quran a Reformist Translation, there you will see my take on the flexibility of reading some words and their alternative meanings...

Please do a little studying and thinking before coming up with assertions like this.

The verse about cutting the hands of thieves can be read in both ways and can be understood in three ways, which I believe is the intention of the Author of the Quran. Unfortunately, some people with knee-jerk reaction to the Quran are unable to appreciate this deliberate flexibility in its expressions, that accommodate times and different conditions.

Peace,
Edip

Abdun_Nur

Salaam Prince,
a bit off topic but
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/29/54/

The principle once established within a verse of the Qur'an applies universally to every other verse, for example Allah creates nothing Idly, this means you cannot be held in Jahannam without purpose.

Allah is compassionate and forgiving, this means the torment is given to yourself by yourself, not inflicted upon you.

Allah has made you to transform from state to state, therefore you must continue to transform.

Due to circular time upon entering Jahannam you have existed there from the very first moment of creation itself, this is why Allah warns us you do not want to spend a single instant in Jahannam, but all escape Jahannam as you dwell there forever and ever, while you dwell in Jannah forever and ever and ever. Each forever is a revolution of circular time.

Halil

Hello Citizen,

Although you lack some research into certain claims i find most of your questions reasonable.

You claim that there is nothing special about this book the Quran, that its just another book and that you could just as easily write one like it. If you care to read a few conversion stories youll come to notice that most if not all came to islam due to the profound influence the Quran had on them. I myself, obviously considering the statistically derived possibility, am one of those. There is no other book i can even begin to compare of having the same influence on me. Im sure youll agree that it is not "just some book" considering these facts and that God knows how many people have had their entire lives altered by this "700th-century" book down to the very core essence of their souls. Are you able to give examples of any other books that have had the same impact on the same scale? Even the aggressing mongols converted after razing the muslim cities into rubble.

I dont really know what youre looking for that is supposed to convince you of its divinity. I dont know if youre looking for a mathematically derived theory of relativity in it or something of the like. There are accurate descriptions of the development of a fetus in the womb. There is also mention of the preservance of the body of Pharoah as a reminder, whose body has not been discovered until early 20th century or so. There probably are more things of interest along those lines.
Personally however i dont put much weight in them, because for me its the words in it that from the very first verse captured my heart.
Now ive read that you stated that you had read the book and was not impressed. Well each his own, guidance is allways and only from God. There is no compulsion in religion.

Now you talk about that the "quranist views" regarding cutting off hands and beating wives are forced and dishonest. As a quranist, i agree with you. Im not able to completely answer every single sentence in that book to full satisfaction. No one can. God reminds us in it that we are not to rush in understanding it and that we should instead seek his guidance. I can however not disregard 95% of the content that at times has created within me a sense of what i can only desribe as euphoria.
Not that i myself am fully convinced but, lets just for the sake of broadening out views outside of those imprintied in our minds by our current culture ask say, what would the crimerates involving theft look like in a society implimenting "cutting-off" hands? How would this law be viewed say 1000 years back in history without regarding ourselves more "civilized" in modern times? I remember reading a quote from an english ambassador to the Ottoman Empire who was absolutely stunned and impressed by the fact that people in a city of millions like Istanbul would leave their houses unlocked. Among other things of his mentions was how he had never seen a woman more dignified than a turkish one. Where when walking in the streets men would never stare at her and allways treat her with outmost respec, whereas in England men could whistle and bark like dogs after her.
How morally wrong is it actually we might also consider to as a last resort slap some sense into ones slutty acting wife after having tried all other measures?

Youd accept islamic law if it comformed completely to current western ones wouldnt you? Whos laws is it that we actually consider ideal here? There is a lot to benefit from this question, not to least for quranists.

You also talk about the grave moral lacking of eternal punishment. Personally when i for the first time came into realisation of this fact i nearly cried, out of pure relief. Relief that there actually is JUSTICE and all the evil i had seen throughout my life and all the evil and corrupt disgusting people that i so helplessly watched go about their shi**y business out of the pure convinction that they would go unpunished or that they would only be punished for an insignificantly small amount of time compared to the everlasting eternity of their complete and eternal death. Thank God for justice, thank God for purposing creation after those that really matter, the righteous and devout people who through all this hardship still decided to stick to the path of God and are rewarded for this with eternal bliss even though they had the freedom of not to, but faith and guidance taught them better. Isnt that just the best creation? You can not create a good soul as you would create a perfect functioning human biological machine, that soul can only be good if it chose to be so and not if it was just created that way. A soul, however impossible for us to completely describe, is at least not a machine.

These arguments are not to reflect my complete understanding of the entire creation, for i have none and as youd expect me to answer only God does. But the purpose is more to make you see that your, mine or anyone elses philosophy isnt neceserally the universally correct one and that it is ALLWAYS subject to change. That is the level which you are putting most of your arguments forth at, the philosophical one.
Faith tends to have better longevity.

Look if the Quran didnt do it for you and youre still searching then really there is just one thing left. Get down on your knees in all humility and ask God. I dont know what youre gonna ask or say thats up to you, but just ask him, in full earnesty, truthfullness and humility.

Icinden zaten biliyorsun bu hayat tamamen bir anlamsiz bosluk oldunu ve Allahdan baska bir gercek olamazdini.

Saygilar.

CitizenDerCosmos

You also talk about the grave moral lacking of eternal punishment. Personally when i for the first time came into realisation of this fact i nearly cried, out of pure relief. Relief that there actually is JUSTICE and all the evil i had seen throughout my life and all the evil and corrupt disgusting people that i so helplessly watched go about their shi**y business out of the pure convinction that they would go unpunished or that they would only be punished for an insignificantly small amount of time compared to the everlasting eternity of their complete and eternal death.

Oh dear Halil, I admire your sincere attempts to tell me why I should consider taking religion more seriously, however so far you have not given a single argument. However, this quoted piece hereabove grabbed my interest(+the last line written in Turkish), as this more-or-less summarizes WHY religiosity exists in the first place ( and why religion is bound to stay ).
You know what this is called? - Wishfullthinking. Because you want there to be divine justice, you want there to be an everlasting life, a transcendental soul/spirit/ruh, independant of our low-ish earthly bodies.
All animals have an intrinsic desire to live and to proliferate. All animals fear death, all animals love to have lots of kids, all animals love to eat etc. Why? Because if that had not been the case we couldn't see them in the first place!.
Humans are no exception, and we have indeed great difficulty in accepting this life is finite. Everyone knows the immense grief at losing a beloved friend or relative. So the "pure relief" as you put it, comes with the belief that they still exist, but just in another world, or dimension if u will.(akhirat). However, modern science dealing with the human brains does not seem to support the idea that our emotions, our memories, i.e. the concept of "I" can exist without our brains. This is further exemplified by people who might, due to some illness or accident, become just "different" people, which indeed is very frightening for their relatives.

I don't fear death (though the way to it might suck) I have been dead(nonexistent) for billions of years and wasn't bothered by it for a second. Where were I before I was born? Or better Where were I before I got my consciousness(when I was a few years old?)
Where would I be if my parents hadn't decided to make me? You see the absurdness of this question?

So, although I would love to see eternall life, divine justice(I live my life pretty OK anyway, so nothing to fear I hope! ), I am pretty much agnostic concerning those things. However, I would LOVE to be surprised!
Respectfully,
Citizen

loxbox13

Your theory based on Shadda does not hold for at least two reasons

Shadda cannot be substantiated by the oldest available text of the Quran; it is a later innovation like other dietrical marks. Shadda reflects a particular reading, and usually they are shaped after the teaching of sects and hadith reports.
The word QaT'A in verse 1231, which does not mean "cut-off" but a simple cut/mark by accident, yes, that verb too is conventionally or traditionally read with Shadda.

If you look at the Quran a Reformist Translation, there you will see my take on the flexibility of reading some words and their alternative meanings...

Please do a little studying and thinking before coming up with assertions like this.

The verse about cutting the hands of thieves can be read in both ways and can be understood in three ways, which I believe is the intention of the Author of the Quran. Unfortunately, some people with knee-jerk reaction to the Quran are unable to appreciate this deliberate flexibility in its expressions, that accommodate times and different conditions.

Peace,
Edip

shadda in the pronouciation it does existe, it's not sectarian, it's the arabic language, kassra also isn't written but it's there, as well as dhamma and fatha, none was written, but they're all there in the pronouciation. I don't know if shadda bothers u and makes you feel it's sectarian, but it's in the arabic language, arab christians use it as well .

Halil

Citizen,

i understand your reasoning around the whole thing, those were my exact ways of reasoning. Do you ever consider who taught you that way of thinking with what animals like and dont like and would not be here if they didnt like that. Are you sure they are your own thoughts?
You say that its common for people to think the way i do, dont you find that interesting? Empiric evidence isnt the only way we are able to make sufficiently accurate judgements.

Now there is again a lot of needless assuming that you make. I overcame my fear of death long before i converted, but in any case having had it once i understand your expression of it in a previous post. But that is not the reason islam seemed appealing to me. I also never was fully seeking God, the reason i read the Quran in the first place was for the sake of being objective and informed due to my hateful and troubled relationship with religion. So the "want" part never was there, you should not be so hasty make your mind up on things.
God decided to guide me despite everything still, i am thankful for that. Every heard that song "Amazing grace.... that saved a wretch like me"?

I actually did answer your questions, if you compare my answers piece by piece with your first post and a statement in your second youll see that. I assume that you understand that no concrete "proof" type of answers can be given to most of them.

I don't fear death (though the way to it might suck) I have been dead(nonexistent) for billions of years and wasn't bothered by it for a second. Where were I before I was born? Or better Where were I before I got my consciousness(when I was a few years old?)
Where would I be if my parents hadn't decided to make me? You see the absurdness of this question?

Im sorry i dont really understand at this moment what youre trying to say.
You were not dead for eternity before you were born but in the reasoning of eternal death one is supposed to be dead for all everlasting endless eterneity, endless.... endless.... That used to be the thought that i remember being scary back in my teens, it was the rare and occasional insight into the meaning of true eternity that as you would put it "sucked". That fear i could not bring out just like that on demand but one would need to be in quite the state of contemplation and only ever truly experienced it a few times before i grew out of it.

So, although I would love to see eternall life, divine justice(I live my life pretty OK anyway, so nothing to fear I hope! ), I am pretty much agnostic concerning those things. However, I would LOVE to be surprised!

And surprised you might be, God knows what the future holds. If there was a time when i would feel hate by the mere mention of God than i dont see it impossible for you to recieve inspiration.

Well i guess thats all i can come up with, dont know if you have benefited anything from it. In my view these things are ultimately in the hands of God. There a tons of really amazing stories in this forum, you might wanna check them out, they are interesing reads regardless.

Hope you find what youre searching for.

Edip_Yuksel

shadda in the pronouciation it does existe, it's not sectarian, it's the arabic language, kassra also isn't written but it's there, as well as dhamma and fatha, none was written, but they're all there in the pronouciation. I don't know if shadda bothers u and makes you feel it's sectarian, but it's in the arabic language, arab christians use it as well .

Dear Loxbox13, You did not address to the points I reminded you.

So, peace.
Edip

Halil

Hello Edip, i wanted to ask. You being a stout believer in the code 19 concept and searching hidden codes and meanings in the Quran. What do you make of this verse?

003.007 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Prince

Due to circular time upon entering Jahannam you have existed there from the very first moment of creation itself, this is why Allah warns us you do not want to spend a single instant in Jahannam, but all escape Jahannam as you dwell there forever and ever, while you dwell in Jannah forever and ever and ever. Each forever is a revolution of circular time.

Salaam Abdun.

Can you elaborate on the above viewpoint please with quranic verses.

PEACE