WHO, IS QURAN TO BE RECITED TO...ALLAH OR MEN?

unknownuser

PEACE TO ALL

Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy ayats and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.

Even as We have sent among you an Apostle from among you who recites to you Our ayats and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know.

Say Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.

A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know

A herald of good news and a warner, but most of them turn aside so they hear not.

And with truth have We revealed it, and with truth did it come; and We have not sent you but as the giver of good news and as a warner.

And it is a Quran which We have revealed in portions so that you may recite it to the people by slow degrees, and We have revealed it, revealing in portions.

Say Believe in it or believe not; surely those who are given the knowledge before it fall down on their faces, making obeisance when it is recited to them.

Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.

These ayats make three, at least, very important points

Quran, was sent to people to be recited to people, hence, for Muslims to stand in ranks behind imams and recited the Quran back to Allah, appears to be...meaningless behavior?
Ayats 297 and 414 define Quran as a Book of good news and warning and ayat 17105 defines the Messenger as a giver of good news, hence, Al-Quran, is the good news and warning which the Messenger was to deliver/convey.
Ayats 17105 and 7518 makes it abundantly cleat that the only thing to be followed/obeyed for the guidance of Muslims...is Al-Quran.

Nowhere does Allah ever say to recite anything to Him.

Comments?

TheNabi

Salaam

Alfurqan is the criterion for mankind(alinsana) and for this reason it is to be recited to the people. The twice a day reading, relating to as salaat, is a method to reach out to Allah by upholding Allah's statutes.

Joe

unknownuser

Salaam

Alfurqan is the criterion for mankind(alinsana) and for this reason it is to be recited to the people. The twice a day reading, relating to as salaat, is a method to reach out to Allah by upholding Allah's statutes.

Joe

PEACE

What you are suggesting as salat, how is this recitation and salat performed then?

TheNabi

Salaam

In the daily reading you simply reach out to God by studying the quran to advance and progress.

Joe

Satan_Hates_Me

salat is not studying or reciting the koran because GOD isolate each as TWO different things (1778 )

PRIEST_BOKMEI

Nowhere does Allah ever say to recite anything to Him.

you are right, the Koran is to be recite to men EXCEPT FOR surah one. Why? it is to be said in salat. plus its target auidence is GOD

{15} You alone we worship. You alone we ask for help.

Is the person being refernce here a man, or poaple? NO. It is GOD. We are to recite surah one in arabic to GOD five times a day, seeking his help to guide us in the straight path.

unknownuser

PEACE SHM

you are right, the Koran is to be recite to men EXCEPT FOR surah one. Why? it is to be said in salat. plus its target auidence is GOD

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
No, you are incorrect, SHM and here is why. Sura Al-Fatihah, is requesting that Allah guide the individual to the...straight path. Now, what is the straight path? Well, it can only be Al-Quran, because IT contains the Will/Legislation of Allah and any who follows it, will obtain the object of life, the Supreme Achievement--PARADISE

The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.

Say Surely, (as for) me, my Lord has guided me to the straight path; (to) a most right religion, the faith of Ibrahim the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists.

Therefore when We have recited IT, follow ITS recitation.

Sura Fatihah, was not meant to be recited five times per day, because why on earth would an individual,after being guided to Al-Quran, turn to Allah, five times per day, and ask Allah to guide him/herself to something for which Allah has already guided him/her to, i.e.--Al-Quran? For example, someone asks you to guide them to the mall which may be 2-3 miles from where you are standing. Well, in a couple hours, that same person comes and asks you to guide them to the mall again. Well, you say to yourself...hmmm didn't I just guide this individual to the mall already? Well, anyone can forget, so, you tell him/her again. Well, in another few hours, the indivudal comes back to you again and asks...could you guide me to the mall? Now, what would you think of the individual if they came to you five times a day 17 times per day, day in and day out, asking you to guide them to the same mall? Do you see now? No sura was meant to be recited to Allah. Al-Quran was meant to be recited only to man, for Allah...already knew it contents before He revealed to man.

If you are going to state that, Al-Fatiha is supposed to be recited five times per day, well, that would be a law/command from Allah. Would you then, please post the ayat where Allah states that?

Satan_Hates_Me

PRIEST_BOKMEI

If you are going to state that, Al-Fatiha is supposed to be recited five times per day, well, that would be a law/command from Allah. Would you then, please post the ayat where Allah states that?

this argument is so played out. "Where is it in the koran" argument that is. Why? It is subjective.

No sura was meant to be recited to Allah. Al-Quran was meant to be recited only to man, for Allah...already knew it contents before He revealed to man.

before i continued, kep in mind you are commited to your choices. you have made a decision to deny ritual prayer, so you will always block you mind to hearing what is true.

here are just a few questions you are running from to prove you point.

firstly, who is the auidence for surah one? Who is surah one addressed to?

Answer GOD only
14-5 Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

Surah one is addressng the
"Master of the Day of Judgment"
"the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds"
"Most Gracious, Most Merciful"

Secondly, surah one ASKs this being for help and guidance
{16} Show us the straight way,

Notice there is no "Qul" or "say" before the surah. We GOD comand the messenger to say something, He state "SAY" before the command (280, 2135, 16102 etc.)

Yet in surah one there is NO comand to "PROCLAIM" or "SAY"! Why? because it is a prayer to be recited by men.

IT IS POINTLESS TO RECITE SURAH ONE TO ANY OTHER BEING BESIDE GOD. Why? Because it is a baliant prayer to GOD.

Now, what is the straight path? Well, it can only be Al-Quran, because IT contains the Will/Legislation of Allah and any who follows it, will obtain the object of life, the Supreme Achievement--PARADISE

you are contradicting yourself, its funny.

The "straight path" is NOT the koran. (6.161)

verse 6161 testify the it is the religion of submission, not a book! The "straigth path" is Submission to GOD Alone. (351, 1936)

Guidance to the straight path means maintain it. Just because one has the koran, it doesnt mean he "no longer" needs to be guided to the straight path. Many members of this forum proves that.

YankeeDoodle

PB,

Very good argument about who the recitation should be directed to.It actually boils down to the validity and existence of Salat.I would tend to agree with you on this because basically the book sent as a mercy for us should now be further propagated by fellow men to recite/read it to mankind.To now recite it back to God would be considered preposterous.

002.083
YUSUFALI And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel ) Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in Salat; and practise ZaKat. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).
PICKTHAL And (remember) when We made a covenant with the Children of Israel, (saying) Worship none save Allah (only), and be good to parents and to kindred and to orphans and the needy, and speak kindly to mankind; and establish Salat and pay the Zakat. Then, after that, ye slid back, save a few of you, being averse.
SHAKIR And when We made a covenant with the children of Israel You shall not serve any but Allah and (you shall do) good to (your) parents, and to the near of kin and to the orphans and the needy, and you shall speak to men good words and keep up Salat and pay the Zakat. Then you turned back except a few of you and (now too) you turn aside.
KHALIFA We made a covenant with the Children of Israel "You shall not worship except GOD. You shall honor your parents and regard the relatives, the orphans, and the poor. You shall treat the people amicably. You shall observe the (Salat) and give the obligatory (Zakat)." But you turned away, except a few of you, and you became averse.
AIDID SAFARAnd when We took the promise with the children of Israel that,you shall not serve except God and treat your parents kindly and your relatives,the orphans and the needy;And speak to mankind courteously and observe your commitments--
salat and endow its purity--Zakat (aqee-mus-solaa-ta-wa-tus-zakaa).Then you turned away except the very few from among you-and you became averse.

Comparing the verses above from various translations I find Aidid's translation very close to being practical ie salat and Zakat are not ritual.The question that comes to mind would be; are the Jews(by product of Judaism) synonymous with the children of Israel.From this verse alone and also in many other verses it appears that eversince the Children of Israel broke the covenant they became a disorganised lot with the need to be reminded of civility and covenant as per the verse above.The jewish community as we see today is a very united and cohesive society that manage to defend their beliefs and sovereignty against Giants,totally different from the Children of Israel depicted in the Quran.

cheers.

unknownuser

PEACE SHM

PRIEST_BOKMEI If you are going to state that, Al-Fatiha is supposed to be recited five times per day, well, that would be a law/command from Allah. Would you then, please post the ayat where Allah states that?

this argument is so played out. "Where is it in the koran" argument that is. Why? It is subjective.

A. 2185. Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear proofs of guidance and the criterion... in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful

B. 733. Say the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden/made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.

C. 2533 And no question/arguement do they bring to thee but We reveal to thee the truth and the best explanation (thereof).

D. 2124. Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.

Now, do you think the above ayats are also played out? Are they objective enough for you? Well, if they aren't played out and are objective enough for you, then my question to you isn't played out either nor can it ever be. If you or anyone else is going to say that something is a law/command from Allah, then you'd be better be able to darn well bring your convncing proof for your assertion, otherwise, you set yourself up as co-legislator with Allah and that would clearly be shirk. So, with this in mind then, where in Al-Quran can I find the ayat which containds the following?

If you are going to state that, Al-Fatiha is supposed to be recited five times per day, well, that would be a law/command from Allah. Would you then, please post the ayat where Allah states that?

before i continued, kep in mind you are commited to your choices. you have made a decision to deny ritual prayer, so you will always block you mind to hearing what is true.

Al-Quran, is fully detailed and omits nothing pertinent to one's spiritual development and salvation, hence, if a ritual prayer were a law/command from Allah, then, where are the step by step by step details, along with the various verbal formulas, on how to perform it? Allah, says that His Quran is fully detailed and omits nothing. Now, either you belive that or you don't. Allah says

Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind,
also clear proofs of guidance
and the criterion... in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

29.51 Is it not sufficient/enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.

You will take note that, Allah says...the Book is recited to them which means the entire Book and not just parts of it. Do you see any anything in the ayat 2951 which makes an exception, that is, only Fatiha is to be recited back to Allah? I don't. He clearly says...the Book which is recited to them and no where is it to be recited to Him. You need to stop conjecturing.

here are just a few questions you are running from to prove you point.

firstly, who is the auidence for surah one? Who is surah one addressed to?

Answer GOD only
14-5 Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

Surah one is addressng the
"Master of the Day of Judgment"
"the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds"
"Most Gracious, Most Merciful"

Secondly, surah one ASKs this being for help and guidance
{16} Show us the straight way,

Notice there is no "Qul" or "say" before the surah. We GOD comand the messenger to say something, He state "SAY" before the command (280, 2135, 16102 etc.)

Yet in surah one there is NO comand to "PROCLAIM" or "SAY"! Why? because it is a prayer to be recited by men.

IT IS POINTLESS TO RECITE SURAH ONE TO ANY OTHER BEING BESIDE GOD. Why? Because it is a baliant prayer to GOD.

Did you bother at all to contemplate my arguement to you? It dosen't seem so, because if you had, you'd come to the conclusion that

there is no ritual prayer to be performed, hence, nothing to recite to Allah.
the Fatiha, is the Opening of the Book and a duaa to be guided to the straight way, hence, the entire Quran is the straight way

you are contradicting yourself, its funny.

The "straight path" is NOT the koran. (6.161)

verse 6161 testify the it is the religion of submission, not a book! The "straigth path" is Submission to GOD Alone. (351, 1936)

Guidance to the straight path means maintain it. Just because one has the koran, it doesnt mean he "no longer" needs to be guided to the straight path. Many members of this forum proves that.

Don't start laughing yet and nor did I contradict myself, because it is you who has contradicted himself. If you are going to ask Allah to keep/maintain you on the straight path, well, that is an entirely different statement than asking to to be guided to it. In asking Allah to maintain you on what you already KNOW is guidance, Al-Quran/Al-Islam, then, that is making duaa to Allah which He commands us to do. Duaa is NOT a ritual nor is it reciting verbatim back to Allah His Quran.

No parts of Al-Quran are to be recited back to Allah. You have no arguement SHM.

unknownuser

PEACE YD

A fine post. I will respond when I return from work, insha-Allah.

Satan_Hates_Me

YankeeDoodle

Comparing the verses above from various translations I find Aidid's translation very close to being practical ie salat and Zakat are not ritual.

look up the definition of "ritual". everything in the koran is basically a ritual

ritual = 1. established formal behavior an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion.

PRIEST_BOKMEI

The reason why that argument is subjective is because it is used out of context. for example

A. 2185. Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear proofs of guidance and the criterion... in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful

B. 733. Say the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden/made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.

C. 2533 And no question/arguement do they bring to thee but We reveal to thee the truth and the best explanation (thereof).

D. 2124. Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.

all these verse you quoted have context is is related to there surrounding verse. You are abusing them by "clipping" one to twisting it to your point of view. I can do that with the bible, koran, or torah. but it is wrong.

Now, do you think the above ayats are also played out?

the above verse have context that you are abusing.

Al-Quran, is fully detailed and omits nothing pertinent to one's spiritual development and salvation, hence, if a ritual prayer were a law/command from Allah, then, where are the step by step by step details, along with the various verbal formulas, on how to perform it? Allah, says that His Quran is fully detailed and omits nothing. Now, either you belive that or you don't. Allah says

this particular argument is "played out" and very subjective. How about you use all those verses in context. God said the koran is "fully-detailed" yet that very statement is in a praticular context. If the Koran was fully-detialed, everything including how to make a car would have been detailed in it. But of course GOd use that statement in context, that you are abusing.

every verse you posted are in context. if you missed it i can explain each context for you to deny.

You will take note that, Allah says...the Book is recited to them which means the entire Book and not just parts of it. Do you see any anything in the ayat 2951 which makes an exception, that is, only Fatiha is to be recited back to Allah? I don't. He clearly says...the Book which is recited to them and no where is it to be recited to Him. You need to stop conjecturing.

this is a perfect example of abusing verses. Why? If you use common sense, you will know that the Koran WAS NOT REVEAL IN ONE COMPLETE BOOK! The Koran testifys to this. So you are abusing the statement above by saying "the entire Book and not just parts of it.". Like I stated, people are abusing verses out of context to prove baseless points.

there is no ritual prayer to be performed, hence, nothing to recite to Allah.
the Fatiha, is the Opening of the Book and a duaa to be guided to the straight way, hence, the entire Quran is the straight way

And you say you dont contradict yourself. Look above.

you said "nothing to recite to Allah."

then you said

"a duaa to be guided to the straight way"

what is a duaa. isnt it a prayer recite to GOD, or maybe you recite to men. You are proving my point, the first surah is indeed a prayer recited daily.

In asking Allah to maintain you on what you already KNOW is guidance, Al-Quran/Al-Islam, then, that is making duaa to Allah which He commands us to do. Duaa is NOT a ritual nor is it reciting verbatim back to Allah His Quran.

contradiction number 2. IF surah one is a duaa, who is it recited to, yourself?!?! nonsense. Listen to yourself. you are saying nothing is recite to GOD then you are saying the first chapter is a duaa. yet you say you dont contradict yourself. The only way you cannot contradict yourself with those statement above is if you are praying this duaa to a being other than GOD.

No parts of Al-Quran are to be recited back to Allah. You have no arguement SHM.

my argument is

inconsistency within your agrument (which i prove)
if the first chapter is a duaa, who is the duaa directed too?
The first chapter is a dialy prayer, ritual prayer. You have no proof that it is not.

Duaa is NOT a ritual nor is it reciting verbatim back to Allah His Quran.

those who deny salat as a ritual prayer use this argument as well. All of it is "played out". What you fail to realize is that EVERYTHING IN THE KORAN IS A RITUAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

look at the defintion. stop trying your best to put a negative spin on the term ritual.

ritual = 1. established formal behavior an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion.

what ever you "define" salat, zakat, anthing thing in the koran as, especially if it deals with human behavior, IT IS A RITUAL. IT is a an established and prescribed pattern of observance

so using this "no ritual" argument is baseless because everyting in the koran is a ritual.

unknownuser

SHM

PRIEST_BOKMEI

The reason why that argument is subjective is because it is used out of context. for example

Quote
A. 2185. Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear proofs of guidance and the criterion... in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful

B. 733. Say the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden/made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.

C. 2533 And no question/arguement do they bring to thee but We reveal to thee the truth and the best explanation (thereof).

D. 2124. Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.

all these verse you quoted have context is is related to there surrounding verse. You are abusing them by "clipping" one to twisting it to your point of view. I can do that with the bible, koran, or torah. but it is wrong.

Show us then, how I've used these ayats out of context. When Allah says

2533 And no question/arguement do they bring to thee but We reveal to thee the truth and the best explanation (thereof), is it your position that this ayat can/does not stand alone?, what are you talking about?

Quote Al-Quran, is fully detailed and omits nothing pertinent to one's spiritual development and salvation, hence, if a ritual prayer were a law/command from Allah, then, where are the step by step by step details, along with the various verbal formulas, on how to perform it? Allah, says that His Quran is fully detailed and omits nothing. Now, either you belive that or you don't. Allah says

this particular argument is "played out" and very subjective. How about you use all those verses in context. God said the koran is "fully-detailed" yet that very statement is in a praticular context. If the Koran was fully-detialed, everything including how to make a car would have been detailed in it. But of course GOd use that statement in context, that you are abusing.

Al-Quran, is not a book on deisel automatives, backgammon for the stupid, advanced needlepoint technique or Olympic swimming, it is a book for human spiritual guidance and salvation. Your comment is an example of abuse and twisting of the term...fully detailed.

every verse you posted are in context. if you missed it i can explain each context for you to deny.

Yes, why don't you do that and show us all how...wise you are.

Quote You will take note that, Allah says...the Book is recited to them which means the entire Book and not just parts of it. Do you see any anything in the ayat 2951 which makes an exception, that is, only Fatiha is to be recited back to Allah? I don't. He clearly says...the Book which is recited to them and no where is it to be recited to Him. You need to stop conjecturing.

this is a perfect example of abusing verses. Why? If you use common sense, you will know that the Koran WAS NOT REVEAL IN ONE COMPLETE BOOK! The Koran testifys to this. So you are abusing the statement above by saying "the entire Book and not just parts of it.". Like I stated, people are abusing verses out of context to prove baseless points.
Quote

The Quran was not revealed in one complete book?!? Really, how many Quran books are there? Bte, your response did not refute at all my arguement. Simply saying I'm abusing verses is not a refutation. Go to Al-Quran and find the ayats which refute my arguements. Just your...impressions of things, is not meaningful.

there is no ritual prayer to be performed, hence, nothing to recite to Allah.
the Fatiha, is the Opening of the Book and a duaa to be guided to the straight way, hence, the entire Quran is the straight way

And you say you dont contradict yourself. Look above.

you said "nothing to recite to Allah."

then you said

"a duaa to be guided to the straight way"

what is a duaa. isnt it a prayer recite to GOD, or maybe you recite to men. You are proving my point, the first surah is indeed a prayer recited daily.

The one thing I'm not doing is proving your point; I have no idea where get such a notion, so please read more carefully. No, prayer is not recitation to Allah, it is calling on Him for aide. Show me one one ayat where Allah says to recite anything to Him. Allah, on the other hand, does tell the believer to call/make duaa to Him.

1314 Lahu daAAwatu alhaqqi waallatheena yadAAoona min doonihi la yastajeeboona lahum bishayin illa kabasiti kaffayhi ila almai liyablugha fahu wama huwa bibalighihi wama duAAao alkafireena illa fee dalalin

1314 For Him (alone) is prayer in Truth any others that they call upon besides Him hear them no more than if they were to stretch forth their hands for water to reach their mouths but it reaches them not for the prayer of those without Faith is nothing but (futile) wandering (in the mind).

Wa-itha massa al-insana alddurru daAAana lijanbihi aw qaAAidan aw qa-iman falamma kashafna AAanhu durrahu marra kaan lam yadAAuna ila durrin massahu kathalika zuyyina lilmusrifeena ma kanoo yaAAmaloona

1012 When trouble toucheth a man, He crieth unto Us (in all postures)- lying down on his side, or sitting, or standing. But when We have solved his trouble, he passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him! thus do the deeds of transgressors seem fair in their eyes!

In asking Allah to maintain you on what you already KNOW is guidance, Al-Quran/Al-Islam, then, that is making duaa to Allah which He commands us to do. Duaa is NOT a ritual nor is it reciting verbatim back to Allah His Quran.

contradiction number 2. IF surah one is a duaa, who is it recited to, yourself?!?! nonsense. Listen to yourself. you are saying nothing is recite to GOD then you are saying the first chapter is a duaa. yet you say you dont contradict yourself. The only way you cannot contradict yourself with those statement above is if you are praying this duaa to a being other than GOD.

Please, can you tone down the emotionalism a bit, thanks. Did you bother at all to read the example I gave you in the two previous posts? How many times are you going to recite to Allah to...guide you to the straight path? Don't you know what the straight path is yet? Certainly you can make duaa to Allah to KEEP you on the path, but to recite back to Him the Sura which he gave you is simply ridiculous.

Consider this ayat

And when the Quran is recited, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.

Now, you speak of using common sense, so, I ask you...do you recite Quran back to Allah so that He may listen, remain silent, and be shown mercy?, because that is exactly what you'd be doing according to the above ayat.

No parts of Al-Quran are to be recited back to Allah. You have no arguement SHM.

my argument is 1. inconsistency within your agrument (which i prove)

You've proven nothing except that you are not attentive to what is being said to you.

if the first chapter is a duaa, who is the duaa directed too?

Duaas are directed to Allah, however, Al-Fatiha, isn't a duaa to be made more than once, because once Fatiha is read, then, the guidance continues from it to Al-Nas.

The first chapter is a dialy prayer, ritual prayer. You have no proof that it is not.

Certainly I do, because Allah did not say it was a ritual. What?, do you think Allah is impoverished of words? Show me I can find the word ritual in Al-Quran.

Quote Duaa is NOT a ritual nor is it reciting verbatim back to Allah His Quran.

those who deny salat as a ritual prayer use this argument as well. All of it is "played out". What you fail to realize is that EVERYTHING IN THE KORAN IS A RITUAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really? Tell you what then, please go to Al-Quran and find me the word... ritual, thanks.

look at the defintion. stop trying your best to put a negative spin on the term ritual.

ritual = 1. established formal behavior an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion.

Main Entry ESTABLISH to institute (as a law) permanently by enactment or agreement to bring into existence to put on a firm basis to put beyond doubt.

Main Entry FORMAL belonging to or constituting the form or essence of following or according with established form, custom, or rule characterized by punctilious respect for form

Main Entry PRESCRIBE to lay down a rule dictate to lay down as a guide, direction, or rule of action.

Main Entry PATTERN a form or model proposed for imitation.

Main Entry PROCEDURE a particular way of accomplishing something or of acting b a step in a procedure a series of steps followed in a regular definite order.

If salat were a ritual as you claim it is, then, according to these ayats it would be fully detailed as a procedure in Al-Quran...so, where is it?

what ever you "define" salat, zakat, anthing thing in the koran as, especially if it deals with human behavior, IT IS A RITUAL. IT is a an established and prescribed pattern of observance; so using this "no ritual" argument is baseless because everyting in the koran is a ritual.

Show me the term ritual in Al-Quran and then show me where it says all of your aforementioned items are rituals. If you are going to assert something/make a proposition, then, it is up to you, not me, to prove your assertion. Do you understand this rudimentary principle of debate? If so, please comply with it in the future.

Satan_Hates_Me

PRIEST_BOKMEI

please clam down and listen. Please remember that you deny salat as a ritual prayer. So even if i present facts to you, i cannot change you position.

**Context is so important but many ignore it to abuse the Koran.

Here is the system of this posted so there will be no doubt. Everytime i present a argument i will provided a koran verse to PROVE IT! Simply enough right? okay

Let us start.

The Quran was not revealed in one complete book?!? Really, how many Quran books are there?

Firstly, THE KORAN WAS NOT REVEAL TO MUHAMMED ALL AT ONCE.
Proof =
{2532} Those who disbelieved said, "Why did not the Quran come through him all at once?" We have released it to you gradually, in order to fix it in your memory. We have recited it in a specific sequence.

Muhammed didnt have all 114 chapter in possession to recite to his peolpe. Therefore if you use common sense, you will learn that Muhammed didnot have all chapter when he preached to his people.

lets continue....

Show us then, how I've used these ayats out of context. When Allah says

2533 And no question/arguement do they bring to thee but We reveal to thee the truth and the best explanation (thereof), is it your position that this ayat can/does not stand alone?, what are you talking about?

Quote Al-Quran, is fully detailed and omits nothing pertinent to one's spiritual development and salvation, hence, if a ritual prayer were a law/command from Allah, then, where are the step by step by step details, along with the various verbal formulas, on how to perform it? Allah, says that His Quran is fully detailed and omits nothing. Now, either you belive that or you don't. Allah says

You should really let go of this "fully-detailed" argument because it is so subjective. But first, look how you abuse verse 2533 by using it out of context. If you just remove that cover from you see and simply "glance" at the verse just before this one, everything is explained.

2532
Those who disbelieved said, "Why did not the Quran come through him all at once?" We have released it to you gradually, in order to fix it in your memory. We have recited it in a specific sequence.

2533
Whatever argument they come up with, we provide you with the truth, and a better understanding.

verse 2532 states that the dibelievers say "why didnt the Quran come all at once." THEN GOD provides the argument against that claim stated by the disbeliever in verse 2532. GOD argument to the claim of the disbelievers is "We have released it to you gradually, in order to fix it in your memory." THEN GOD tells us "Whatever argument they come up with, we provide you with the truth."

The "they" in this verse are the disbelievers mention in the previous verse. The "you" in this verse is Muhammed, not PRIEST_BOKMEI, nor the Koran.

Please remember GOD reveal the Koran, the compete book, to mankind, not one ayat. So you must use the entire Book in context, and not abuse verses by quoting them out of context.

NO WHERE IN VERSE 2533 is there a hint or slight indication of salat or a referne to the Koran being a "fully-detailed" book. YOU PRIEST_BOKMEI have abuse this verse by quoting it out of context to prove a baseless point.

Al-Quran, is fully detailed and omits nothing pertinent to one's spiritual development and salvation

Now i will prove how subjective you argument is. You do the same mistakes as you counter partners by adding "adjective" to the Koran without authority.
For example, "spiritual development and salvation" are terms YOU, not GOD, but you are using to describe the function of the Koran? The reason YOU are using such terms is to classify the Koran and aviod the faults of your argument. By classifying the Koran as a "spiritaul guidance only" book, you can now subjectively select what is spiritual guidance and what is not. Why? Because the Koran is not fully-detiled in everything and when God states that it is, it is always used in context.

Proof = {1689} The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters.
Look how GOD himself describe the Koran in this verse

IT explains everything
It is a guide
It is a mercy
It is good news to submitters.

GOD DIDNT SAY

IT explains everything pretaining to spritual guidance
NO. YOu are attribute such adjective to the Koran to subjectively select what is important and what is irrelevant. With this "subjective selection" you can now say

Al-Quran, is fully detailed and omits nothing pertinent to one's spiritual development and salvation, hence, if a ritual prayer were a law/command from Allah, then, where are the step by step by step details, along with the various verbal formulas, on how to perform it?

That is why that argument is so subjective and "played out". You subjectively select what is "spiritual guidance" and what is "not spiritual guidance." But the Koran never claim to be a book on spritual guidance only (1689). Verse 1689 clearly states EVERYTHING, spiritual and non-spriritual. But it was used in context.

In this verse GOD says "everything" He doesnt say "everything the is important to spiritual guidance". HE only says EVERYTHING. So what does that mean. IS everthing explained in the Koran. NO. Cars are not explained, houses, movies, video games etc etc. None of these things a explained in the Koran. So logically, the verse must be used in CONTEXT!

What you fail to realize is the guidance is guidance. IT is no spiritual guidance, it is just guidance. look at the defintion.

guidance 1. leadership leadership or direction 2. advice advice or counseling, especially counseling given to students on academic matters

You subjective classify it as spiritual guidance to avoid explaining what the koran means when it says "explains everything, fully-detail". Because if you read the verse without subjective classifying the book as spiritual guidance only, it is impossible to explain how the koran is fully-detailed in everything. yet GOD uses that term in context.

Al-Quran, is not a book on deisel automatives, backgammon for the stupid, advanced needlepoint technique or Olympic swimming, it is a book for human spiritual guidance and salvation. Your comment is an example of abuse and twisting of the term...fully detailed.

Show me one verse where GOD says the koran is a book of spiritual guidance only!

In asking Allah to maintain you on what you already KNOW is guidance, Al-Quran/Al-Islam, then, that is making duaa to Allah which He commands us to do. Duaa is NOT a ritual nor is it reciting verbatim back to Allah His Quran

Let me ask you a question, if i ask Allah to forgive me of my sins daily, do you think it is "verbatim"? You dont think people prayer surah one daily with sincereity?!?! YOu dont think people can ask GOD contantly for guidance?!?!

And i already prove the the straight path is NOT THE KORAN, BUT SUBMISSION! That is two diferent things!

Certainly you can make duaa to Allah to KEEP you on the path, but to recite back to Him the Sura which he gave you is simply ridiculous.

Doesnt Allah know best what we humans should ask for better than we do?!?!

Now, you speak of using common sense, so, I ask you...do you recite Quran back to Allah so that He may listen, remain silent, and be shown mercy?, because that is exactly what you'd be doing according to the above ayat.

I see the porblem, you are confuse on what recitation is. Duaa and recitation are two different things. Surah one is a prayer. It is pointless to recite it because it is a prayer. Submitters prayer to GOD, we dont recite surah one. Even if i recite surah one, it is address to GOD. So techinically, if i recite it or prayer it, it is addressed to GOD.

Quran back to Allah so that He may listen, remain silent, and be shown mercy?, because that is exactly what you'd be doing according to the above ayat

lol You have blinded yourself. Think....okay think....

if i recite surah one to GOD, OF COURSE "He may listen, and show mercy to me" D'uh. Look... you are confuse, the first surah is a prayer, plain and simply. IT is said five times a day.

Duaas are directed to Allah, however, Al-Fatiha, isn't a duaa to be made more than once, because once Fatiha is read, then, the guidance continues from it to Al-Nas.

show that verse that says that.....oh my bad...that is your opinion!

unknownuser

SHM

Please remember that you deny salat as a ritual prayer. So even if i present facts to you, i cannot change you position.

Please, save your excuses.

Tell you what, you are all over the place, so let's go point by point.

I asked you to go to Al-Quran and find me the ayat which contains the word ritual, so, where is it?. You asserted that..."everything in Al-Quran is a ritual" and that there is a "ritual salat". Now, bring your convincing proof and find me the ayat(s) which backs up your assertions. I gave you, last post, the dictionary definitions for a ritual. Now, can you provide the Quranic evidence for your claims? a simple yes or no will suffice.

Then we will discuss points

How was Quran revealed.
What is meant by fully detailed.
What is meant by spiritual.

Idris

peace, SHM

if I were out in the middle of nowhere and came across a copy of the Quran and lets even say a copy of the Bible along with that, how will I know to recite surah 1 in my ritual prayer? do I just guess? the fact is if I had to recite sura 1 in my ritual prayer as a necessity to fulfill it then the Qu'ran would have said so, or do I need to come across a copy of Bukhari to know that? or perhaps the Rashad Khalifa website? btw I thought that you believed the ritual salat was only to be performed 3 times a day, its interesting that when I read the Bible that David did so

peace

Satan_Hates_Me

Idris

peace, SHM

if I were out in the middle of nowhere and came across a copy of the Quran and lets even say a copy of the Bible along with that, how will I know to recite surah 1 in my ritual prayer? do I just guess? the fact is if I had to recite sura 1 in my ritual prayer as a necessity to fulfill it then the Qu'ran would have said so, or do I need to come across a copy of Bukhari to know that? or perhaps the Rashad Khalifa website? btw I thought that you believed the ritual salat was only to be performed 3 times a day, its interesting that when I read the Bible that David did so

peace

i understand your argument. But look at it this way.
IF i come across a copy of the koran in the desert and it said, "to give in charity". But i dont know what "charity" is, is it wrong to seek the defintion of charity outside the koran to know what "charity" is? No. because the deifnition of charity existed before the koran.

That is the same with salaat. GOD tells us to observe it, But not what it is. There is no wrong in learning what it is outside the koran.

The fact is the absence of detials for salat doesnt testify it is not a ritual prayer. Why? Because there are several other things beside salat that are not detailed in the Koran yet you followed it without trying "re-defing" terms, That is very subjective. And please dont quote the same verse of "fully-detailed" because i explained how those verse are used out of context.

People are confusing what salat is with the laws in the koran. It is llike confusing what a car is with how to build one. There are two different things. What salat is (a ritual prayer) have nothing to do with laws in the Koran. Salat was already define before the Koran.

Satan_Hates_Me

I asked you to go to Al-Quran and find me the ayat which contains the word ritual, so, where is it?. You asserted that..."everything in Al-Quran is a ritual" and that there is a "ritual salat".

this is pointless. look at the definiton of ritual again.
ritual = 1. established formal behavior an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion

AH... Like The Rock says "It doesnt matter" if ritual is in the koran or not, all the laws and commands we humans observe through the koran are "an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion"

For example, salat. WHAT EVER YOU DEFINE SALAT AS, it is done at several times(11114), at specfic times (4103) DAILY! IT IS A RITUAL. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS A "established and prescribed pattern of observance."

I know what you are thinking. You have link the term "ritual" with pegan custom. so now to you ritual is a "satanic" term. BUT by definition, salat is a ritual. YOU CANOT DISPROVE THAT. IT DOESNT MATTER IF IT IS IN THE KORAN OR NOT, by defintion alone, a salat is a ritual, plain and simply.

Now, bring your convincing proof and find me the ayat(s) which backs up your assertions.

i just did but here it is again because you will deny it.
For example, salat. WHAT EVER YOU DEFINE SALAT AS, it is done at several times(11114), at specfic times (4103) DAILY! IT IS A RITUAL. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS A "established and prescribed pattern of observance."

Now, can you provide the Quranic evidence for your claims? a simple yes or no will suffice.

read the large fonts again if you are doubtful.

Then we will discuss points

How was Quran revealed.
What is meant by fully detailed.
What is meant by spiritual.

i luv how you skip and quickly summarize these questions to follow a argument you cannot win with the defintion of a ritual and how salat is a ritual by plain defintion.

But anyway....please explain why you subjectively select what is spiritual guidance in the Koran and what is not spiritual guidance (althought the koran doesnt even use that term, only those who deny salat)

Also explain why you abuse verse which states "fully-detailed" by subjective selecting what is fully-detail.

And please explain why you deny verse 2532
{2532} Those who disbelieved said, "Why did not the Quran come through him all at once?" We have released it to you gradually, in order to fix it in your memory. We have recited it in a specific sequence

Also explain why you baliant deny that salat is a ritual although i prove it by definition and koran verses that it is. After you deny and present "pretty" but baseless argument, then you can discuss how salat is not a commitment but a link to the creator maintain daily.

unknownuser

SHM

this is pointless. look at the definiton of ritual again.
ritual = 1. established formal behavior an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion. Also explain why you baliant deny that salat is a ritual although i prove it by definition and koran verses that it is.

No, on the contrary, it is the absolute point. I know what Merriam-Webster says, what I want from you is what Allah says. Your assertion is that there exists a ritual salat in Al-Quran and it is to be done, fine, however, if that is your position, then you must go to Allah's Quran and produce the ayats(s) which show the term ritual and that it is to be done. If you cannot do this then have the fear of Allah and the intellectual honesty/maturity to admit that you can't and retract your assertion. For you to claim something is from Allah and then you not produce the ayats to substabtiate that is to set yourself up as a god along with Allah...now, do you really want to do that?

AH... Like The Rock says "It doesnt matter" if ritual is in the koran or not, all the laws and commands we humans observe through the koran are "an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion"

I'm not the least bit interested in what the Rock says, but I am interested in what Allah says. So, I ask you again, where does Allah use the term ritual in His Quran, relative to the believers, and how is this ritual performed?

I know what you are thinking.

No, you don't, unless of course, you can now read minds.

luv how you skip and quickly summarize these questions to follow a argument you cannot win with the defintion of a ritual and how salat is a ritual by plain defintion.

I'm not skipping anything and don't worry...I will address the rest of your assertions as well, however, I prefer to deal with an item at a time, so as, to avoid clutter and underdeveloped repsonses.

Please contain your emtionalism though.

Satan_Hates_Me

PRIEST_BOKMEI

this is pointless indeed. YOU completly ignore the proof i present above. I think there is not one single person in here you can deny that salat is not a ritual by true defintion. Only you "priest."

Your assertion is that there exists a ritual salat in Al-Quran and it is to be done, fine, however, if that is your position, then you must go to Allah's Quran and produce the ayats(s) which show the term ritual and that it is to be done.

sometime i wonder who you are trying to prove, me or yourself. Look at this ridiuculos comment. Please...please pay attention, i will spell it out again.

Firstly, stop with this "show me the exact word" argument. Why? It is pointless and "played out." I can use the same argument with you regarding where in the koran does it say "spiritual guidance" only. The koran does even say that, so it is pointless for me to "demand" that exact word from you.

Secondly, salat is a ritual by (1) plain defintion and (2) the koran and (3) its charateristics.

Your assertion is that there exists a ritual salat in Al-Quran and it is to be done, fine, however, if that is your position, then you must go to Allah's Quran and produce the ayats(s) which show the term ritual and that it is to be done.

is the exact word ritual in the Koran? NO
Is salat a ritual? YES
Do the word ritual need to be in the Koran to prove salat is a ritual? NO
So why salat is a ritual when the word "ritual" is not in the Koran? Because it is a ritual by definition.
There are many words that are not in the Koran, but that doesnt mean they dont apply.

"Priest" if your argument is that salat is not a ritual because the word "ritual" is not in the Koran, it is a baseless argument that you CANNOT win. Why? Because salat is a ritual by true defintion of the word just like the koran is a book by pure defintion of the word "book." GOD does need to say the the koran is a book, because common sense will tell you it is a book by pure defintion of the word.

This is truely pointless, you are the only one i have debate with that will complete deny this simpe fact. I showed you with factual information of the word and koranic verse how salat is a ritual. It doesnt matter what you define salat as.

I'm not skipping anything and don't worry...I will address the rest of your assertions as well, however, I prefer to deal with an item at a time, so as, to avoid clutter and underdeveloped repsonses.

Yes please do address the issues i raise like

Your subjective use of "fully-detial"
Balaint abuse of Koran verses for your objective
Baliant use of koran verses OUT OF CONTEXT
DENYing the baliant ritual charateristic of salat, making it a ritual by pure defintion.
The very subjective argument of "everything is in the Koran"
Baliant denial of verse 2532, that Muhammed didnt have the complete koran to preach to his people.
Subjective descriptions of the Koran purpose to subjectvely select what is spiritual and what is not spiritual in the Koran
Baliant assertions that the Koran is "spiritual guidance" only book
**inconsistency within your argument

Please contain your emtionalism though.

well thanks for the advice. Can you please contain the skipping of questions and jump straight to the issue with you next post. please. I am tried of answering your same question over and over......and over...and over....and over.....

unknownuser

SHM

this is pointless indeed. YOU completly ignore the proof i present above.

Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.

You've proved nothing. Anyway, per the above ayat, I repeat Your assertion is that there exists a ritual salat in Al-Quran and it is to be done, fine, however, if that is your position, then you must go to Allah's Quran and produce the ayats(s) which show the term ritual and that it is to be done.

I
think there is not one single person in here you can deny that salat is not a ritual by true defintion. Only you "priest."

Tell you what, why don't you ask them and see what they say.

sometime i wonder who you are trying to prove, me or yourself. Look at this ridiuculos comment. Please...please pay attention, i will spell it out again.

None of the above, I'm simply asking you to prove what you assert. I'm lost for words as to what about this simple request you have difficulty grasping.

Firstly, stop with this "show me the exact word" argument. Why? It is pointless and "played out." I can use the same argument with you regarding where in the koran does it say "spiritual guidance" only. The koran does even say that, so it is pointless for me to "demand" that exact word from you.

Quote
Your assertion is that there exists a ritual salat in Al-Quran and it is to be done, fine, however, if that is your position, then you must go to Allah's Quran and produce the ayats(s) which show the term ritual and that it is to be done.

is the exact word ritual in the Koran? NO

Well, that is one issue resolved, now, that wasn't so bad was it?

Is salat a ritual? YES. Do the word ritual need to be in the Koran to prove salat is a ritual? NO. So why salat is a ritual when the word "ritual" is not in the Koran? Because it is a ritual by definition.

a. How can salat be a ritual, yet have no such word to identify it as such, can be found in Allah's Quran? Is Allah impoverished of words?

b. Does Allah say that salat is a ritual....yes or no?

"Priest" if your argument is that salat is not a ritual because the word "ritual" is not in the Koran, it is a baseless argument that you CANNOT win. Why? Because salat is a ritual by true defintion of the word just like the koran is a book by pure defintion of the word "book." GOD does need to say the the koran is a book, because common sense will tell you it is a book by pure defintion of the word.

You're saying that salat is ritual by definition is altogether meaningless unless you can go to Al-Quran and provide the evidence for such an assertion. If salat were a ritual by definition as you claim, then Allah would have defined it a such...did He do this? If so, please post the ayats where He did this.

Btw, Allah, has defined his Quran as a Book

A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know

This is truely pointless, you are the only one i have debate with that will complete deny this simpe fact. I showed you with factual information of the word and koranic verse how salat is a ritual. It doesnt matter what you define salat as.

The only fact which you've presented to date is...there is no such word as ritual in Al-Quran.

Quote
I'm not skipping anything and don't worry...I will address the rest of your assertions as well, however, I prefer to deal with an item at a time, so as, to avoid clutter and underdeveloped repsonses.

Yes please do address the issues i raise like

Your subjective use of "fully-detial"
Balaint abuse of Koran verses for your objective
Baliant use of koran verses OUT OF CONTEXT
DENYing the baliant ritual charateristic of salat, making it a ritual by pure defintion.
The very subjective argument of "everything is in the Koran"
Baliant denial of verse 2532, that Muhammed didnt have the complete koran to preach to his people.
Subjective descriptions of the Koran purpose to subjectvely select what is spiritual and what is not spiritual in the Koran
Baliant assertions that the Koran is "spiritual guidance" only book
**inconsistency within your argument

As soon as you show us the ayats where Allah, defines salat as a ritual, well, then we can move on to the other items, but not before. If you cannot find any ayats where Allah defines salat as a ritual, then simply admit this and let's move on. In rendering your response, take in to full consideration these ayats and definition

Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.
Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.

2543 Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion (or impulse)? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?

Main Entry a GOD a person or thing of supreme value a powerful person or ruler assuming the word always refers to a non-man is an error, as the Greeks referred to many with authority as Theos . A man od such superior qualiites that he seems like a diety to the other people.

When you/anyone, ascribes something to Allah and then cannot provide the convincing proof i.e. ayats from His Quran to confirm your assertion, then you/they guilty of the following things

a. make a liar of Allah.

b. take yourself as a god.

c. mislead yourself.

d. mislead others.

well thanks for the advice. Can you please contain the skipping of questions and jump straight to the issue with you next post. please. I am tried of answering your same question over and over......and over...and over....and over.....

We'll move on once we resolve the issue under discussion. The issue of salat is not yet fully resolved.