WHO, IS QURAN TO BE RECITED TO...ALLAH OR MEN?

[zenje]

Zenje

According to your logical, you know if you use an arabic dictionary to define koranic words, that is a source of explaination outside the koran right? you are contradicting those verse (6115-114)?
A source for what? Language? The dictionary is not the teacher of the quran, nor is it the guide - God is. I don't look to the dictionary to explain verses. I don't look to the dictionary as a source of law. Which is what those verses is all about.

You know what I find amusing SHM?... is that you're fighting against anyone who uses these verses of God, because it doesn't benefit your agenda.

So, if you are learning arabic and ask the techer what salat mean or how to develop the meaning for salat using root words or whatever, you are not using the koran and therefore using an outside source for religious guidance right?
SHM, If I'm learning a language, that's different. If I'm learning the meaning of the verses, only the quran can explain the quran. I don't look to Imams/Bukhari/Khalifa to tell me what's what. I answer for myself.

One last thing I'd like say on this thread...

We can study together, if we don't agree on something, it's okay, no problem, if we agree, good! If I'm wrong, God is my judge. It seems to me, SHM, if someone disagrees with you, you take it upon yourself to go on and on and on... give it up man. You're not going to guide me or anyone here. The messenger couldn't guide the ones he loved, can you? You have your opinion, you gave it, move on. I have mine, I said what it is. Are you 100% sure you're right and I'm wrong? roll

Peace and take it easy.

[Satan_Hates_Me]

Would wearing boxer shorts in public violate Allah's rule of modesty? If so, then you have all the details, now don't you? If you are still in doubt, then consider these ayats

Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.

And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts...

Now, are those ayats fully detailed enough for you? Isn't modesty, bottomline, about covering up one's private areas except to those whom it lawful to expose them to ? How each society/individual decides to guard their private parts is up to them just as long as they do it, otherwise, they are accountable to Allah

Doesnt me wearing boxers in public, arnt i gurading my pivartes? So it is lawful to wear boxers in public preist? Is that fully-detailed?

Oh, you rejected my explanations, despite the fact that, I quoted Al-Quran, I see.

what do you think Allah meant/means by...everything

it is your explaination. If is it what GOd saoed, show me the exact verses please.

Fine, then what is the context for the following ayat and what is meant by everything

16.89 And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

this verse "everything" in base on the context of the book. please look how GOD, not you, but GOD describe when something or everything is detailed in the Book. (1712)

Stop abusing verses.

Really?, then please, tell us, what does Allah mean by everything in ayat 1689?

the "everything" means "everything" but GOD use it in context. please remember GOd diberlately outlook things. (5101)

Yes, Allah, did convey to us what he means by fully detailed

6114. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

this verse have context, that you are baliantl abusing. sad that you will keep doing it too.

Exactly, my life is guided by Al-Quran only and alone, what is your source of guidance?

al koran.

Let me ask you a question. In light of ayat 2185, what is guidance for?

first use the verse in context, then we can talk.

guidance have context. remember everything a human experience is by GOd will to guides us. so everything can be qualify as guidance, but you must use it in context.

If everything means everything, as you assert, then you tell me why there is no mention of how to build a car in Al-Quran?

lol you are not serious. Are you trying to use my argument you cannot defeat. God gaves us what we need. period. if he want to he could have detail how to make a car, but many things were outlook deliberately. (5110)

You continue to speak of context, yet, you don't want to accept the context of how "everything" is being used in Al-Quran, meaning, Al-Quran has everything pertinent for man's guidance, that is the context. What is guidance for?...to save one's soul from Hell, hence, this ayat again

you know this is your explaination again right? this is your subjective reason. If this is true, just show me the exact verse please.

16.89 And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

Do you see the context now? In the world to come Al-Quran will be either a witness for you or a witness against you and you will have no excuses on that day, because a Book was given which explained...everything in order to keep you out of Hell. Now, do you understand why the schematics on how to build a car is not detailed in Quran?...it is not pertinent to your getting into Paradise or avoiding Hell.

the verse still says "everything" without any exceptions.

My God, anyway, my assertion is what Allah, is stating in Al-Quran.

will show me the exact verse where he said exactly what you said, and i will shut up.

min rabbihi qul innama al-ayatu AAinda Allahi wa-innama ana natheerun mubeenun

It is my understanding that, there is no word miracle in 2950 only the words...ayats, verses, if you will.

you know dern well ayat can mean miralcle too.

So according to you "intrepretation" the verse reads

And they said "If only verse would come down to him from his Lord!" Say "All verse are with God, and I am but a clear warner."

But isnt Muhammed receieve verse of the koran?!?!? This is idoitic. how can Muhammed with the Koran if he had not verses to warm with?!?!

What does..."God is basically saying" mean? Either you know or you don't, but basically means you are not certain.

basically means "simply stating". I know because unlike you, i read the koran in context and remember GOD deliever it and arranged it for a reason.

Please, show me the word miracle in ayat 2950. Regardless, even if miracle is in that ayat and let's for arguement sake that it is, 2951, still poses the rhetorical question from Allah to man, that is, isn't His miracle--Al-Quran, sufficient/enough for them?

miracle is in that verse and i can prove in the context of the koran, muhammed was ask to provide a miracle many times. Context people.

Isn't Al-Quran sufficient/enough as a sign, that is, as Book of ayats for guidance, for people to obey Allah and follow its contents?

Damn boy...you still dont get it. This statment is abuse. the verse says nothing about this nor was it refering to this. you have abuse it that way. but you still dont get it.

Don't you get it? No matter how you look at that 2951, as an ayat, it stands alone and needs no context, because Allah, is speaking about Al-Quran in its totality. The ayat is its own context.

the verse doesnt stand alone. it is used in context. i explain it WITH THE KORAN yet you still deny. God said the koran being diliever to muhammed was "enough" of a miracle for those who seek one.

I understand context way better than you ever will.

do you want to get into this "no you dont" "yes i do" argument. it child play. If you think you understand the kkoran better then me, yet your understand is not by your own offer but GOD mercy. well....good for you. the user name is arouse you pride or something.

Please answer my above questions...coherently, please.

i now you are giving me orders. Is this order in the Koran, because i dont have to follow it.

So, tell me, if Allah, The Lord of the Worlds, didn't fully detail the dress code...then who did? and where are the full details for the dress code to be found then?

you dont understand what "fully-detailed" means. God gave us the guidance on how to dress righteously. he didnt "fully-detailed" it. it is just the guidelines. Like i said, according to your twisted logical, it is wrong for me to seek help in modest dress outside the Koran since "everything in exist releting to islam/submission is fully-detailed.

like i said, prove to me a women wearing a swiming suit in public is wrong by koran standards. she is covering her chest and modesty is simply cover the pivarte parts by your defintion right?

If it weren't fully detailed, then how could Allah hold in account an individual who didn't adhere to it?

O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as for luxury. But the best garment is the garment of righteousness. These are some of GOD's signs, that they may take heed.

[Satan_Hates_Me]

zenje

the reaons i ask is because yo have "come down on me" because i use all resources to seek and understand on what salat is. however, you and other testify the seeking any kind of resources to undertand what salat is that is outside the koran is wrong.

Yet yo are guilty of this.

A source for what? Language? The dictionary is not the teacher of the quran, nor is it the guide - God is. I don't look to the dictionary to explain verses. I don't look to the dictionary as a source of law. Which is what those verses is all about.

a source of intrepretation. Can you speak arabic zenje. if you cannot, when you see an arabic word in the koran and you dont know the meaning, do you look in a arabic dictionary as a source of intrepretation. is the arabic dictionary the koran? no.

You know what I find amusing SHM?... is that you're fighting against anyone who uses these verses of God, because it doesn't benefit your agenda.

most dont use the verses of GOD, but abuse them. iam just trying to expose people subjective hypocritical agrumentive ways when the issue of salat is raised.

SHM, If I'm learning a language, that's different. If I'm learning the meaning of the verses, only the quran can explain the quran. I don't look to Imams/Bukhari/Khalifa to tell me what's what. I answer for myself.

yes you do. maybe dont look to "bukhari" but you look at the person who publish that dictionary to determine what arabic words means which influence you intrepretation and explaination of the koran. so basically, that is an outside source.

I said what it is. Are you 100% sure you're right and I'm wrong?

not in all issues but there are things you are indeed 100% wrong in. remember the clear way is made clear from the wrong way. not all can be right. roll

*****side question
i notice you tend to have different "emoticons" that i cannot access. is that because you are a moderator?

[YankeeDoodle]

Zenje,

We can study together, if we don't agree on something, it's okay, no problem, if we agree, good! If I'm wrong, God is my judge. It seems to me, SHM, if someone disagrees with you, you take it upon yourself to go on and on and on... give it up man. You're not going to guide me or anyone here. The messenger couldn't guide the ones he loved, can you? You have your opinion, you gave it, move on. I have mine, I said what it is. Are you 100% sure you're right and I'm wrong?

Sounds very much like when I dominate a lecture class.Everything is either balck or white to ME.

[unknownuser]

SHM

Doesnt me wearing boxers in public, arnt i gurading my pivartes? So it is lawful to wear boxers in public preist? Is that fully-detailed?... like i said, prove to me a women wearing a swiming suit in public is wrong by koran standards. she is covering her chest and modesty is simply cover the pivarte parts by your defintion right?

Would you take your mother or sister out in public with swimming suits on and have everyone leer at them?

the "everything" means "everything" but GOD use it in context. please remember GOd diberlately outlook things. (5101)

If we are going to talk then please be coherent, thanks. What does 5101 have to do with this discussion? Anyway, your response is double talk, please answer the question put to you..what is the context of "everything" in the following ayat?

16.89 And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

Quote
Yes, Allah, did convey to us what he means by fully detailed

6114. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

this verse have context, that you are baliantl abusing. sad that you will keep doing it too.

Show us the abuse; just your saying that isn't meaningful; bring your evidence how I absued the ayat.

Exactly, my life is guided by Al-Quran only and alone, what is your source of guidance?

al koran.

LOL! how can Al-Quran be your source of guidance, when you've clearly stated that it is not fully detailed, despite, Allah's saying that it is?? Let me ask you this...is Al-Quran perfect/without contradiction/error?

Let me ask you a question. In light of ayat 2185, what is guidance for?

first use the verse in context, then we can talk. guidance have context. remember everything a human experience is by GOd will to guides us. so everything can be qualify as guidance, but you must use it in context.

You are the scholar on context and, it is your assertion that, everything is in context, so you tell me what the context is.

If everything means everything, as you assert, then you tell me why there is no mention of how to build a car in Al-Quran?

you are not serious. Are you trying to use my argument you cannot defeat. God gaves us what we need. period. if he want to he could have detail how to make a car, but many things were outlook deliberately. (5110)

Thank you for bearing out the following ayats and proving my point! Yes, Allah, gives us exactly what we need, hence

29.51 Is it not sufficient/enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.

6114. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

Quote
You continue to speak of context, yet, you don't want to accept the context of how "everything" is being used in Al-Quran, meaning, Al-Quran has everything pertinent for man's guidance, that is the context. What is guidance for?...to save one's soul from Hell, hence, this ayat again

you know this is your explaination again right? this is your subjective reason. If this is true, just show me the exact verse please.

I couldn't find that ayat, but I'm certain you know, because it applies to you during our exchanges..."if they but used their intellect/common sense, they would not go astray"...

You do not use any common sense at all, hence, it why you can say that Al-Quran is not fully detailed, even though, Allah says that it is.

Btw, all you've done in our conversation up to this point, is offer your subjective views, none of which, makes any Quranic sense.

Quote
16.89 And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

Do you see the context now? In the world to come Al-Quran will be either a witness for you or a witness against you and you will have no excuses on that day, because a Book was given which explained...everything in order to keep you out of Hell. Now, do you understand why the schematics on how to build a car is not detailed in Quran?...it is not pertinent to your getting into Paradise or avoiding Hell.

the verse still says "everything" without any exceptions.

Well, if it is everything, then, where are the details for building a car? I'm using your arguement, so, if everything means everything, then, where are the details for a car, please answer. You cannot have both ways.

Quote
My God, anyway, my assertion is what Allah, is stating in Al-Quran.

will show me the exact verse where he said exactly what you said, and i will shut up.

Quote
min rabbihi qul innama al-ayatu AAinda Allahi wa-innama ana natheerun mubeenun

It is my understanding that, there is no word miracle in 2950 only the words...ayats, verses, if you will.

you know dern well ayat can mean miralcle too.

No, the ayat does not say "miracle", period. LOL! talk about abusing the verses, man, that takes the cake! Although ayah is translated as verse, it actually means "sign" and not miracle.

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Please, show me the word miracle in ayat 2950. Regardless, even if miracle is in that ayat and let's for arguement sake that it is, 2951, still poses the rhetorical question from Allah to man, that is, isn't His miracle--Al-Quran, sufficient/enough for them?

miracle is in that verse and i can prove in the context of the koran, muhammed was ask to provide a miracle many times. Context people.

Fine, then show me the word for miracle in that ayat. Anyway, you didn't answer the question

Regardless, even if miracle is in that ayat and let's for arguement sake that it is, 2951, still poses the rhetorical question from Allah to man, that is, isn't His miracle--Al-Quran, sufficient/enough for them?

Quote
Isn't Al-Quran sufficient/enough as a sign, that is, as Book of ayats for guidance, for people to obey Allah and follow its contents?

Damn boy...you still dont get it. This statment is abuse. the verse says nothing about this nor was it refering to this. you have abuse it that way. but you still dont get it.

Watch the "boy" stuff, young lady. It is apparent that, whenever you cannot answer my question, you respond with..."this is abuse of statement". Please answer

Regardless, even if miracle is in that ayat and let's for arguement sake that it is, 2951, still poses the rhetorical question from Allah to man, that is, isn't His miracle--Al-Quran, sufficient/enough for them?

Don't you get it? No matter how you look at that 2951, as an ayat, it stands alone and needs no context, because Allah, is speaking about Al-Quran in its totality. The ayat is its own context.

the verse doesnt stand alone. it is used in context. i explain it WITH THE KORAN yet you still deny. God said the koran being diliever to muhammed was "enough" of a miracle for those who seek one.
Quote

Fine, what is the context then? Why don't you explain your assertion, rather than constantly charging me with "abusing"?

you dont understand what "fully-detailed" means. God gave us the guidance on how to dress righteously. he didnt "fully-detailed" it. it is just the guidelines. Like i said, according to your twisted logical, it is wrong for me to seek help in modest dress outside the Koran since "everything in exist releting to islam/submission is fully-detailed.

Isn't Allah's guidance...perfect? well, given that it is pefect, then His guidance is fully detailed for His guidance is perfect, how can it not be?

like i said, prove to me a women wearing a swiming suit in public is wrong by koran standards. she is covering her chest and modesty is simply cover the pivarte parts by your defintion right?

Would you take your mother or sister out in public with swimming suits on and have everyone leer at them?

Quote
If it weren't fully detailed, then how could Allah hold in account an individual who didn't adhere to it?

O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as for luxury. But the best garment is the garment of righteousness. These are some of GOD's signs, that they may take heed.

like i said, prove to me a women wearing a swiming suit in public is wrong by koran standards. she is covering her chest and modesty is simply cover the pivarte parts by your defintion right?

Like I asked, would you take your mother or you sister out in public with bathing suits on and have eveyone leer at them?

[Satan_Hates_Me]

Show us the abuse; just your saying that isn't meaningful; bring your evidence how I absued the ayat.

i showed you but you ignored it.

LOL! how can Al-Quran be your source of guidance, when you've clearly stated that it is not fully detailed, despite, Allah's saying that it is?? Let me ask you this...is Al-Quran perfect/without contradiction/error?

Let me ask you a question. In light of ayat 2185, what is guidance for?

thanks for telling me things about myself. you surely know all things roll

I couldn't find that ayat, but I'm certain you know, because it applies to you during our exchanges..."if they but used their intellect/common sense, they would not go astray".

thank you

You do not use any common sense at all, hence, it why you can say that Al-Quran is not fully detailed, even though, Allah says that it is.

surely you do indeed know all thiings. roll

Do you see the context now? In the world to come Al-Quran will be either a witness for you or a witness against you and you will have no excuses on that day.....

i see context. i saw it seen the begining. remember, i was the one arguing context, not you.

Well, if it is everything, then, where are the details for building a car? I'm using your arguement, so, if everything means everything, then, where are the details for a car, please answer. You cannot have both ways.

you have confused yourself.

No, the ayat does not say "miracle", period. LOL! talk about abusing the verses, man, that takes the cake! Although ayah is translated as verse, it actually means "sign" and not miracle.

Ayat has MANY MEANING. ONE IS MIRACLE. Look in any arabic dictionary. (17101)

Fine, then show me the word for miracle in that ayat. Anyway, you didn't answer the question

i did but you translated as sign.

Regardless, even if miracle is in that ayat and let's for arguement sake that it is, 2951, still poses the rhetorical question from Allah to man, that is, isn't His miracle--Al-Quran, sufficient/enough for them?

you are really inconsistent. one time you asking me to show the word miracle, the next you admitt it may have it.

young lady!? lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
ladies dont have penises. you dont even know my gender yet you are making carzy claims about me and "common sense"

Don't you get it? No matter how you look at that 2951, as an ayat, it stands alone and needs no context, because Allah, is speaking about Al-Quran in its totality. The ayat is its own context.

it have context. but hey, you simply dont want to accept it. it cools, it is not my life.

Fine, what is the context then? Why don't you explain your assertion, rather than constantly charging me with "abusing"

i explained it, yet you quote me explaintion then ask me to what it is? to you actual read and understand wha you read? I am not going to even retype the context, i will just quote myself.

the verse doesnt stand alone. it is used in context. i explain it WITH THE KORAN yet you still deny. God said the koran being diliever to muhammed was "enough" of a miracle for those who seek one.

Posted Tue Aug 31, 2004 830 pm Post subject
SHM

Quote
Doesnt me wearing boxers in public, arnt i gurading my pivartes? So it is lawful to wear boxers in public preist? Is that fully-detailed?... like i said, prove to me a women wearing a swiming suit in public is wrong by koran standards. she is covering her chest and modesty is simply cover the pivarte parts by your defintion right?

Would you take your mother or sister out in public with swimming suits on and have everyone leer at them?

Quote
the "everything" means "everything" but GOD use it in context. please remember GOd diberlately outlook things. (5101)

If we are going to talk then please be coherent, thanks. What does 5101 have to do with this discussion? Anyway, your response is double talk, please answer the question put to you..what is the context of "everything" in the following ayat?

16.89 And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

Quote
Yes, Allah, did convey to us what he means by fully detailed

6114. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

Quote
this verse have context, that you are baliantl abusing. sad that you will keep doing it too.

Show us the abuse; just your saying that isn't meaningful; bring your evidence how I absued the ayat.

Exactly, my life is guided by Al-Quran only and alone, what is your source of guidance?

Quote
al koran.

LOL! how can Al-Quran be your source of guidance, when you've clearly stated that it is not fully detailed, despite, Allah's saying that it is?? Let me ask you this...is Al-Quran perfect/without contradiction/error?

Let me ask you a question. In light of ayat 2185, what is guidance for?

Quote
first use the verse in context, then we can talk. guidance have context. remember everything a human experience is by GOd will to guides us. so everything can be qualify as guidance, but you must use it in context.

You are the scholar on context and, it is your assertion that, everything is in context, so you tell me what the context is.

If everything means everything, as you assert, then you tell me why there is no mention of how to build a car in Al-Quran?

you are not serious. Are you trying to use my argument you cannot defeat. God gaves us what we need. period. if he want to he could have detail how to make a car, but many things were outlook deliberately. (5110)

Thank you for bearing out the following ayats and proving my point! Yes, Allah, gives us exactly what we need, hence

29.51 Is it not sufficient/enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.

6114. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

Quote
You continue to speak of context, yet, you don't want to accept the context of how "everything" is being used in Al-Quran, meaning, Al-Quran has everything pertinent for man's guidance, that is the context. What is guidance for?...to save one's soul from Hell, hence, this ayat again

Quote
you know this is your explaination again right? this is your subjective reason. If this is true, just show me the exact verse please.

I couldn't find that ayat, but I'm certain you know, because it applies to you during our exchanges..."if they but used their intellect/common sense, they would not go astray"...

You do not use any common sense at all, hence, it why you can say that Al-Quran is not fully detailed, even though, Allah says that it is.

Btw, all you've done in our conversation up to this point, is offer your subjective views, none of which, makes any Quranic sense.

Quote
16.89 And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

Do you see the context now? In the world to come Al-Quran will be either a witness for you or a witness against you and you will have no excuses on that day, because a Book was given which explained...everything in order to keep you out of Hell. Now, do you understand why the schematics on how to build a car is not detailed in Quran?...it is not pertinent to your getting into Paradise or avoiding Hell.

Quote
the verse still says "everything" without any exceptions.

Well, if it is everything, then, where are the details for building a car? I'm using your arguement, so, if everything means everything, then, where are the details for a car, please answer. You cannot have both ways.

Quote
My God, anyway, my assertion is what Allah, is stating in Al-Quran.

will show me the exact verse where he said exactly what you said, and i will shut up.

Quote
min rabbihi qul innama al-ayatu AAinda Allahi wa-innama ana natheerun mubeenun

It is my understanding that, there is no word miracle in 2950 only the words...ayats, verses, if you will.

Quote
you know dern well ayat can mean miralcle too.

No, the ayat does not say "miracle", period. LOL! talk about abusing the verses, man, that takes the cake! Although ayah is translated as verse, it actually means "sign" and not miracle.

Quote
Please, show me the word miracle in ayat 2950. Regardless, even if miracle is in that ayat and let's for arguement sake that it is, 2951, still poses the rhetorical question from Allah to man, that is, isn't His miracle--Al-Quran, sufficient/enough for them?

Quote
miracle is in that verse and i can prove in the context of the koran, muhammed was ask to provide a miracle many times. Context people.

Fine, then show me the word for miracle in that ayat. Anyway, you didn't answer the question

Regardless, even if miracle is in that ayat and let's for arguement sake that it is, 2951, still poses the rhetorical question from Allah to man, that is, isn't His miracle--Al-Quran, sufficient/enough for them?

Quote
Isn't Al-Quran sufficient/enough as a sign, that is, as Book of ayats for guidance, for people to obey Allah and follow its contents?

Quote
Damn boy...you still dont get it. This statment is abuse. the verse says nothing about this nor was it refering to this. you have abuse it that way. but you still dont get it.

Watch the "boy" stuff, young lady. It is apparent that, whenever you cannot answer my question, you respond with..."this is abuse of statement". Please answer

Regardless, even if miracle is in that ayat and let's for arguement sake that it is, 2951, still poses the rhetorical question from Allah to man, that is, isn't His miracle--Al-Quran, sufficient/enough for them?

Don't you get it? No matter how you look at that 2951, as an ayat, it stands alone and needs no context, because Allah, is speaking about Al-Quran in its totality. The ayat is its own context.

Quote
the verse doesnt stand alone. it is used in context. i explain it WITH THE KORAN yet you still deny. God said the koran being diliever to muhammed was "enough" of a miracle for those who seek one.
Quote

Fine, what is the context then? Why don't you explain your assertion, rather than constantly charging me with "abusing"?

Quote
you dont understand what "fully-detailed" means. God gave us the guidance on how to dress righteously. he didnt "fully-detailed" it. it is just the guidelines. Like i said, according to your twisted logical, it is wrong for me to seek help in modest dress outside the Koran since "everything in exist releting to islam/submission is fully-detailed.

Isn't Allah's guidance...perfect? well, given that it is pefect, then His guidance is fully detailed for His guidance is perfect, how can it not be?

WHAT?!? you know there is a different between fully-detail and evrething right? that is what you are confused. here is a simply example, a senario to teach you

Jon "What do you have on Mary?"
Mary "Clothes"

this is not a "fully detailed" anwers. However

Jon "What do you have on Mary?"
Mary "i have on a red pants, shoes, hat, hijab, blue socks, and my webbing ring"

This is a "fully-detialed" anwer. You brother dont understand the different between "fully-detailed" and everything.

like i said, prove to me a women wearing a swiming suit in public is wrong by koran standards. she is covering her chest and modesty is simply cover the pivarte parts by your defintion right?

Would you take your mother or sister out in public with swimming suits on and have everyone leer at them?

and this is how you prove to me a women can where a swiming uist in public by Koran standards? lol

Like I asked, would you take your mother or you sister out in public with bathing suits on and have eveyone leer at them?

lol
You canot be serious. i ask you to prove by koran standars, not me or my family

Look brother. this is over, i undertand your point of ivew but dont agree with it. there is into context in the koran however many verses cannot stand alone like you claim. God has indeed fully-detailed the koran but fully-detailed doesnt mean everything. there is a difference. verse 16.89 has context to the purpose of the koran, but in that verse says there is not mention of "fully-detailed". There is a different.

Most of the verse you quote are subjectively used by you. i have explained it several times, but you are commited to abusing them out of context.

[unknownuser]

SHM

You didn't answer the following questions

1. Would you take your mother or sister out in public with swimming suits on and have everyone leer at them?

You canot be serious. i ask you to prove by koran standars, not me or my family

I'm very serious and well you know it, hence, your above ridiculous response. Anyway, I will rephrase

Is it Quranic to take your mother or sister out in public with swimming suits on and have everyone leer at them?

2. How can Al-Quran be your source of guidance, when you've clearly stated that it is not fully detailed, despite, Allah's saying that it is??

3. Is Al-Quran perfect/without contradiction/error?

4. Let me ask you a question. In light of ayat 2185, what is guidance for?

5. Well, if it is everything, then, where are the details for building a car? I'm using your arguement, so, if everything means everything, then, where are the details for a car, please answer. You cannot have both ways.

you have confused yourself.

You are confessing here.

6. No matter how you look at that 2951, as an ayat, it stands alone and needs no context, because Allah, is speaking about Al-Quran in its totality. The ayat is its own context. If I'm incorrect, then show us the context, thanks.

7. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

Again, you will notice that, Allah doesn't some of the Quran is fully detailed and other parts of it are not...He says the Quran, that is, in its totality, is fully detailed.

WHAT?!? you know there is a different between fully-detail and evrething right? that is what you are confused. here is a simply example, a senario to teach you

Jon "What do you have on Mary?"
Mary "Clothes"

this is not a "fully detailed" anwers. However

Jon "What do you have on Mary?"
Mary "i have on a red pants, shoes, hat, hijab, blue socks, and my webbing ring"

This is a "fully-detialed" anwer. You brother dont understand the different between "fully-detailed" and everything.

7. Hmmm...so, unless Allah tells us exactly what to wear, per your above example, then we cannot meet His requirement for proper dress, is this your position?

8. In other words, Allah, regarding the dress code, simply gave us an incomplete/non-thorough answer regarding the dress code, is this your position as well?

Allah says, per ayats 6114 and 1689 that, His Quran is fully detailed. You, on the other hand, contradict Him and say that, Al-Quran is not fully detailed. Well, either Allah is wron and you're right or you're right and Allah is wrong, however, you both cannot be right.

Most of the verse you quote are subjectively used by you. i have explained it several times, but you are commited to abusing them out of context.

Please, can this nonsense and respond in an educated and responsible fashion using Quranic proof texts. No more of your "impressions of things".

Main Entry DETAILED marked by abundant detail or by thoroughness in treating small items or parts.

Main Entry ABUNDANT marked by great plenty amply supply plentiful.

Main Entry FULLY in a full manner or degree completly plenty.

Look brother. this is over, i undertand your point of ivew but dont agree with it. there is into context in the koran however many verses cannot stand alone like you claim. God has indeed fully-detailed the koran but fully-detailed doesnt mean everything. there is a difference. verse 16.89 has context to the purpose of the koran, but in that verse says there is not mention of "fully-detailed". There is a different

9. What then, is the purpose of Al-Quran for which it can be defined as being...fully detailed?

10. Isn't Allah's guidance...perfect? well, given that it is pefect, then His guidance is fully detailed for His guidance is perfect? Do you accept this or not? Yes or no?

I don't blame you for wanting this to be over, because your responses, thus far anyway, are nothing less than inadequate in proving your assertions.

Quote
I couldn't find that ayat, but I'm certain you know, because it applies to you during our exchanges..."if they but used their intellect/common sense, they would not go astray".

thank you

Don't thank me yet. Here is the ayat I was referring to. I hope you, at some point, embrace it...fully.

6710 And they will say, "Had we but listened or possessed sense, we should not have been found among the inmates of the blazing Fire".

[Satan_Hates_Me]

1. Would you take your mother or sister out in public with swimming suits on and have everyone leer at them?

this is dumb question, if i answer yes, what have you prove?

2. How can Al-Quran be your source of guidance, when you've clearly stated that it is not fully detailed, despite, Allah's saying that it is??

the koran is fully-detailed. but there is a different between "fully-detailed" and "fully-detailed in everything." The koran does not say the latter, just fully detailed.

3. Is Al-Quran perfect/without contradiction/error?

stop asking idoitic question. my understanding of fully-detail have NOTHIING TO DO WITH Errors in the koran but errors within your mind Preiest.

4. Let me ask you a question. In light of ayat 2185, what is guidance for?

"In light of ayat" ....ah now you are using context, yet still abuse verse out of context.
what is guidance? guidance can be determine by context. For example, instruction on how to make a good car is "guidance" by defintion. Pointing you to a store is "guidance by defintion of the word.(http//encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/guidance.html) In light of the verse 2185 and surrounding verse...the guidance mention is simply a desription of the Koran. there is no context to "guidance" in that verse except as a description of the koran.
You have subjectively define the context of "guidance." The verse NEVER SAYS what kind of guidance, just guidance. That is something you are missing.

5. Well, if it is everything, then, where are the details for building a car? I'm using your arguement, so, if everything means everything, then, where are the details for a car, please answer. You cannot have both ways.

like i said, GOD using everything in context. We shold let the verse explain it rather than you "Priest". Do you think the production of material cannot play an important role in human spiritual development? This is something you just cannot get. You are subjectively determining what is important for guidance and what is not WITHOUT authority. All you got to do to prove me wrong is show one single ayat that says what you say exactly. I tld you salat was a ritual by pure defintion, yet you deny and said "show me the ayat!". Now when i use the same argument "context" come out your mouth.

6. No matter how you look at that 2951, as an ayat, it stands alone and needs no context, because Allah, is speaking about Al-Quran in its totality. The ayat is its own context. If I'm incorrect, then show us the context, thanks.

No it is not. Do you know the Koran has 114 chapter, and over 1400 verses? I show you so many times what the context of the verse is yet you believe the oppsite. It is clear you are commited to that believe. Let is just drop it.

6114. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

this verse has context as well. "Emenies of the Prophst" remember.

Again, you will notice that, Allah doesn't some of the Quran is fully detailed and other parts of it are not...He says the Quran, that is, in its totality, is fully detailed.

it doesnt matter if it didnt say some. I have no beef with Allah. His koran is fully-detailed. My beef is with people who abuse this decription to their twisted agenda.

7. Hmmm...so, unless Allah tells us exactly what to wear, per your above example, then we cannot meet His requirement for proper dress, is this your position?

The is a different between fully-detailed and everything. You can meet the guidlines. But the guidlines GOD gave us for dressing is different from "fully-detailed" as you believe. i think i explain well with my little skit.

8. In other words, Allah, regarding the dress code, simply gave us an incomplete/non-thorough answer regarding the dress code, is this your position as well?

NO. look how you make great assumptions dangerous assumpotion. quote me if i sad that. Oh you cannot.
YOu are jumping for fully-etail, to imcomplete, to non-thorough all because you have confuse the term "fully-detailed" with "everything. They are plain different.

Allah says, per ayats 6114 and 1689 that, His Quran is fully detailed. You, on the other hand, contradict Him and say that, Al-Quran is not fully detailed. Well, either Allah is wron and you're right or you're right and Allah is wrong, however, you both cannot be right.

No no no. I said the koran use "fully-detailed" in a context. It is not "fully-detailed in everything" as you believe.
Please stop trying to make it look like it is either me or GOD, The Great. Please stop, you sound silly.

Please, can this nonsense and respond in an educated and responsible fashion using Quranic proof texts. No more of your "impressions of things".

i prove to you how you abuse verse 2951 out of context. my statements of your abuse is justified and not "impressions".

Don't thank me yet. Here is the ayat I was referring to. I hope you, at some point, embrace it...fully.
6710 And they will say, "Had we but listened or possessed sense, we should not have been found among the inmates of the blazing Fire".

people who dont believe in GOD can easily quote verses of the Koran and bible as a way to attack people character. Your statement would mean something if only it came from GOD himself, an not from someone who is plainly abusing them. The simply fact that you would "quote" a verse at me to attack my character on few occassions prove you love to abuse verses.
i have answer all you questions.

[unknownuser]

SHM

1. Would you take your mother or sister out in public with swimming suits on and have everyone leer at them?

this is dumb question, if i answer yes, what have you prove?
Quote

The question isn't dumb at all. didn't you use the example of swimming suits? So, why is it all of a sudden a dumb question? Is yes your answer or not? Why are you stalling?

2. How can Al-Quran be your source of guidance, when you've clearly stated that it is not fully detailed, despite, Allah's saying that it is??

the koran is fully-detailed. but there is a different between "fully-detailed" and "fully-detailed in everything." The koran does not say the latter, just fully detailed.

2185. Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong).

2186. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

16.89 And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

18.54 And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.

Given that, Allah says His Quran is fully detailed/explaining everything, just what do you think He means by that? You will note that, in neither of the above ayats, do you find an..."except" or "conditional phrase", hence, Allah, is referring to His Quran, in total, as being fully detailed/explaining everything, relative to man's guidance.

3. Is Al-Quran perfect/without contradiction/error?

stop asking idoitic question. my understanding of fully-detail have NOTHIING TO DO WITH Errors in the koran but errors within your mind Preiest.

Well, if Al-Quran is perfect, then, His guidance is fully detailed/explains everything, for His guidance is perfect, hence, His guidance can only be fully detailed in everything, relative to man's guidance.

4. Let me ask you a question. In light of ayat 2185, what is guidance for?

"In light of ayat" ....ah now you are using context, yet still abuse verse out of context. what is guidance? guidance can be determine by context. For example, instruction on how to make a good car is "guidance" by defintion. Pointing you to a store is "guidance by defintion of the word.(http//encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/guidance.html) In light of the verse 2185 and surrounding verse...the guidance mention is simply a desription of the Koran. there is no context to "guidance" in that verse except as a description of the koran. You have subjectively define the context of "guidance." The verse NEVER SAYS what kind of guidance, just guidance. That is something you are missing.

Did Allah send Al-Quran to guide you on how to build a website or a car or did he send Al-Quran to guide you into developing as a soul/human being?

5105 O ye who believe! Guard your own souls If ye follow (right) guidance, no hurt can come to you from those who stray. the goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of all that ye do.

3450 Say "If I am astray, I only stray to the loss of my own soul but if I receive guidance, it is because of the inspiration of my Lord to me it is He Who hears all things, and is (ever) near."

3941 Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.

Now, I suppose there is some other context other than what is stated in those above ayats, eh? Give me a break.

5. Well, if it is everything, then, where are the details for building a car? I'm using your arguement, so, if everything means everything, then, where are the details for a car, please answer. You cannot have both ways.

like i said, GOD using everything in context. We shold let the verse explain it rather than you "Priest". Do you think the production of material cannot play an important role in human spiritual development? This is something you just cannot get.

Ahhh, well, all of sudden you are using the term spiritual, eh? Where is spiritual mentioned in Al-Quran LOL? So, tell us, what is the relationship between material production, spiritual development, and Allah's guidance in Al-Quran?

You are subjectively determining what is important for guidance and what is not WITHOUT authority. All you got to do to prove me wrong is show one single ayat that says what you say exactly. I tld you salat was a ritual by pure defintion, yet you deny and said "show me the ayat!". Now when i use the same argument "context" come out your mouth.

By your own admission, there is no term for ritual in Al-Quran nor does Allah define salat as ritual, so, what is this salat is ritual by definition nonsense again?

6. No matter how you look at that 2951, as an ayat, it stands alone and needs no context, because Allah, is speaking about Al-Quran in its totality. The ayat is its own context. If I'm incorrect, then show us the context, thanks.

No it is not. Do you know the Koran has 114 chapter, and over 1400 verses? I show you so many times what the context of the verse is yet you believe the oppsite. It is clear you are commited to that believe. Let is just drop it.

You are incoherent again, what are you trying to articulate here?

6114. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

this verse has context as well. "Emenies of the Prophst" remember.

LOL! Well, what is the Messenger conveying to his enemies? exactly, Al-Quran is a Book sent to them explainrd in detail, so follow it.

Again, you will notice that, Allah doesn't some of the Quran is fully detailed and other parts of it are not...He says the Quran, that is, in its totality, is fully detailed.

it doesnt matter if it didnt say some. I have no beef with Allah. His koran is fully-detailed. My beef is with people who abuse this decription to their twisted agenda.

Apparently you do have a beef with Allah, because repeatedly He states that, His Quran is fully detailed/explaining everything, relative to the guidance of the soul, yet, you continue to assert that his Quran is not fully detailed/explaining. So, yes, you do have a beef with Allah.

Quote
7. Hmmm...so, unless Allah tells us exactly what to wear, per your above example, then we cannot meet His requirement for proper dress, is this your position?

The is a different between fully-detailed and everything. You can meet the guidlines. But the guidlines GOD gave us for dressing is different from "fully-detailed" as you believe. i think i explain well with my little skit.

When Allah says to cover your private parts, just what do you think He means? Do you reject His just saying to cover your private parts as not being fully detailed? Don't you think if Allah wanted to add more to that that He could have? Allah says that to cover your private parts and, according to Allah, that was/is enough information, hence, His statement is fully detailed. Now, do you reject that or can you define fully detailed better than Allah?

8. In other words, Allah, regarding the dress code, simply gave us an incomplete/non-thorough answer regarding the dress code, is this your position as well?

NO. look how you make great assumptions dangerous assumpotion. quote me if i sad that. Oh you cannot. YOu are jumping for fully-etail, to imcomplete, to non-thorough all because you have confuse the term "fully-detailed" with "everything. They are plain different.

I have no idea what you are saying here. You are totally incoherent.

Allah says, per ayats 6114 and 1689 that, His Quran is fully detailed. You, on the other hand, contradict Him and say that, Al-Quran is not fully detailed. Well, either Allah is wron and you're right or you're right and Allah is wrong, however, you both cannot be right.

No no no. I said the koran use "fully-detailed" in a context. It is not "fully-detailed in everything" as you believe. Please stop trying to make it look like it is either me or GOD, The Great. Please stop, you sound silly.

It is either you or Allah, you've made that clear. What? do you think when Allah said everything that he meant anything other than the what is pertinent to the development/guidance of the soul, what are you talking about? Did Allah say that His Quran is fully detailed in a context? Please show us that ayat. He blanketedly states that...His Quran is fully detailed/explaining everything . Allah's guidance then, is to inform the soul how to obtain Paradise and avoid the Hell-Fire. You've made yourself look silly not me.

Please, can this nonsense and respond in an educated and responsible fashion using Quranic proof texts. No more of your "impressions of things".

i prove to you how you abuse verse 2951 out of context. my statements of your abuse is justified and not "impressions".

You've proved nothing. Why don't you ask the other members if you've proved your un-Quranic claims?

Don't thank me yet. Here is the ayat I was referring to. I hope you, at some point, embrace it...fully.

6710 And they will say, "Had we but listened or possessed sense, we should not have been found among the inmates of the blazing Fire".

people who dont believe in GOD can easily quote verses of the Koran and bible as a way to attack people character. Your statement would mean something if only it came from GOD himself, an not from someone who is plainly abusing them. The simply fact that you would "quote" a verse at me to attack my character on few occassions prove you love to abuse verses. i have answer all you questions.

Please don't start playing the victim. I haven't attacked your character, but have asked you to simply use your common sense, which, to date, you have refused to do. It is interesting that you would pull this... I'm attacking your character nonsense after your repeated accusations that I'm twisting and abusing ayats, please. Anyway, the ayat I posted is from Allah. What? do you think I made it up? What? do you think Allah, is going to come down and give you the meaning of ayats personally?

You have no arguement, SHM and that is why you cannot post any ayats to substantiate your claims. All you've done and continue to do is, post your subjective views, perceptions, impressions, opinions etc., but no Quranic evidence whatsoever.

[Satan_Hates_Me]

*edit *edit again

The question isn't dumb at all. didn't you use the example of swimming suits? So, why is it all of a sudden a dumb question? Is yes your answer or not? Why are you stalling?

Yes, i would let my female family members walk naked in public. So what have you prove by my answer? i ask you to prove by koran standards that a swiming suit in public is haram. Then you ask me a dumb question, so here is a dumb answer. so what now, what have you prove? nothing.

2. How can Al-Quran be your source of guidance, when you've clearly stated that it is not fully detailed, despite, Allah's saying that it is??

it is. dont worry how.

2185. Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong).

2186. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

16.89 And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

18.54 And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.

all these verse have context except of verse 16.89. Why? the context is explain within the verse.

Given that, Allah says His Quran is fully detailed/explaining everything, just what do you think He means by that?

He means what he says. But your understand of it is very subjective.

You will note that, in neither of the above ayats, do you find an..."except" or "conditional phrase", hence, Allah, is referring to His Quran, in total, as being fully detailed/explaining everything, relative to man's guidance.

stop contradicting yourself.
first you state that there are not "except" or "conditional phrase" THEN you contradict yourself by given the conditional phrase, "relative to man guidance.
This is what i have been trying to bring to your attention for over 40 post. You are subjectively selecting the purpose of the Koran. lets say i do agree with you as in the context of the purpose of the Koran, you must admit that you however subjective classify the Koran. The koran never says what you say exactly. You still havent post one verse with that exact statment but you have determine that by studying the koran.
This was my point with salat, when i said it was a ritual, you act like it was a crime. You said "show me in the koran" that exact definition of salat being a ritual, and i argue that it is by pure defintion.
Now you are arguing the the koran is a book for mankind guidance by context, yet the koran never says such thing.

Well, if Al-Quran is perfect, then, His guidance is fully detailed/explains everything, for His guidance is perfect, hence, His guidance can only be fully detailed in everything, relative to man's guidance.

if you want me to shut up and admit i am wrong, all you have to do is quote a verse that says exactly that the koran is "relative to man's guidance." Quote the exact verse. I when you cannot, just admit you are subjectively determing the purpose of the koran. That decription of "relative to man's guidance" is not in the koran exactly is it? No. You just admit it.

5105 O ye who believe! Guard your own souls If ye follow (right) guidance, no hurt can come to you from those who stray. the goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of all that ye do.

3450 Say "If I am astray, I only stray to the loss of my own soul but if I receive guidance, it is because of the inspiration of my Lord to me it is He Who hears all things, and is (ever) near."

3941 Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind. He, then, that receives guidance benefits his own soul but he that strays injures his own soul. Nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.

Now, I suppose there is some other context other than what is stated in those above ayats, eh? Give me a break.

that is my point. there is always context. You are testifying to this. You admit the "everything" means in the context of "man spiritual guidance" yet when i point out the context of the verse, you get upset. Can you see you cannot have it both ways? Context is context,period. You cannot subjectively use it, THAT IS ABUSE!

Ahhh, well, all of sudden you are using the term spiritual, eh? Where is spiritual mentioned in Al-Quran LOL? So, tell us, what is the relationship between material production, spiritual development, and Allah's guidance in Al-Quran?

lol i take that back (spiritual). I mean just guidance. matertial production can indeed be relate to guidance. If i have the intention of producing something with GOD in mind, why not can my material produce have a relationship to Allah guidances. Isnt this meterials thing of this world here for our guidance?

By your own admission, there is no term for ritual in Al-Quran nor does Allah define salat as ritual, so, what is this salat is ritual by definition nonsense again?

so by your own admission, there is no term "spritual" in the Koran nor does GOD defines the Koran as "spiritual", so what is "spiritual" by context nonsense again? wink

You are incoherent again, what are you trying to articulate here?

i explain the context of verse 2951 a MILLION times. you are commited to believing what you want to believe with regards to that verse, so i give up.

LOL! Well, what is the Messenger conveying to his enemies? exactly, Al-Quran is a Book sent to them explainrd in detail, so follow it.

i was talking about the context of verse 2951. Muhammed was not conveying anything to his enemies. GOD was tell us why he allow enemies of nabis to make lies about them. See how you abuse it out of context?!?

Apparently you do have a beef with Allah, because repeatedly He states that, His Quran is fully detailed/explaining everything, relative to the guidance of the soul, yet, you continue to assert that his Quran is not fully detailed/explaining. So, yes, you do have a beef with Allah.

if the koran as fully-detailed in everything, there would have be guidlines to how to ride a bike. So i know it is used in context. Even you use the description of "everything" in context. Yet you deny the plain clear simply contex t of verses. I have give up. You simply refuse to use context all the time, that is why you subjectively abuse verses, because you dont be consistent in you argument. Context is subjectively used by you!

When Allah says to cover your private parts, just what do you think He means? Do you reject His just saying to cover your private parts as not being fully detailed? Don't you think if Allah wanted to add more to that that He could have? Allah says that to cover your private parts and, according to Allah, that was/is enough information, hence, His statement is fully detailed. Now, do you reject that or can you define fully detailed better than Allah?

I have no idea what you are saying here. You are totally incoherent. wink

Please don't start playing the victim. I haven't attacked your character, but have asked you to simply use your common sense, which, to date, you have refused to do. It is interesting that you would pull this... I'm attacking your character nonsense after your repeated accusations that I'm twisting and abusing ayats, please.
Anyway, the ayat I posted is from Allah. What? do you think I made it up? What? do you think Allah, is going to come down and give you the meaning of ayats
personally?

of course it is from GOD. You are abusing them. Sometimes people dont know that they are abusing something.

You have no arguement, SHM and that is why you cannot post any ayats to substantiate your claims. All you've done and continue to do is, post your subjective views, perceptions, impressions, opinions etc., but no Quranic evidence whatsoever.

lol No. that is what you are doing. So...

You have no arguement, PRIEST_BOKMEI and that is why you cannot post any ayats to substantiate your claims. All you've done and continue to do is, post your subjective views, perceptions, impressions, opinions etc., but no Quranic evidence whatsoever.

[unknownuser]

Quote
The question isn't dumb at all. didn't you use the example of swimming suits? So, why is it all of a sudden a dumb question? Is yes your answer or not? Why are you stalling?

Yes, i would let my female family members walk naked in public. So what have you prove by my answer? i ask you to prove by koran standards that a swiming suit in public is haram. Then you ask me a dumb question, so here is a dumb answer. so what now, what have you prove? nothing.

The Quranic standard is for people to cover their private parts and if a woman walks around in public in a swimming suit whether it be a a bikini or one piece, her breasts and pubic area remain substantially exposed ecen though there is a thin piece of cloth covering those areas. For those who use their common sense/intellect, they would immediately know that a simming suit does not agree with the Quranic standard of modesty, unless, the genders were segregated in private pools or beaches.

When Allah says to cover your private parts, just what do you think He means? Do you reject His just saying to cover your private parts as not being fully detailed? Don't you think if Allah wanted to add more to that that He could have? Allah says that to cover your private parts and, according to Allah, that was/is enough information, hence, His statement is fully detailed. Now, do you reject that or can you define fully detailed better than Allah?

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2. How can Al-Quran be your source of guidance, when you've clearly stated that it is not fully detailed, despite, Allah's saying that it is??

it is. dont worry how.

Hmmm...it's top secret, eh?

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2185. Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong).

6114. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

16.89 And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

18.54 And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.

all these verse have context except of verse 16.89. Why? the context is explain within the verse.

All those ayats stand on their own. Why didn't you explain their contexts then? What? we should just take your word for it? Anyway, thanks for admitting that 1689 stands on its own. If you now believe and accept that ayat, then, you will know that there is no such thing as ritual prayer in Al-Quran, because if there were, how to perform it would have been clearly explained...in detail.

Quote Given that, Allah says His Quran is fully detailed/explaining everything, just what do you think He means by that?

He means what he says. But your understand of it is very subjective.

Yeah, right.

Quote You will note that, in neither of the above ayats, do you find an..."except" or "conditional phrase", hence, Allah, is referring to His Quran, in total, as being fully detailed/explaining everything, relative to man's guidance.

stop contradicting yourself. first you state that there are not "except" or "conditional phrase" THEN you contradict yourself by given the conditional phrase, "relative to man guidance. This is what i have been trying to bring to your attention for over 40 post. You are subjectively selecting the purpose of the Koran.

Tell you what, go to your Quran search engine, type in "soul" and then read those ayats. If, after reading those ayats, you still don't get it that, Al-Quran was sent for the guidance of the soul, then it is simply not for you to understand, masha-Allah.

lets say i do agree with you as in the context of the purpose of the Koran, you must admit that you however subjective classify the Koran. The koran never says what you say exactly. You still havent post one verse with that exact statment but you have determine that by studying the koran.

You are mumbling again, please write coherently, thanks.

This was my point with salat, when i said it was a ritual, you act like it was a crime.

Salaa, as a ritual prayer is a crime and the crime is shirk.

You said "show me in the koran" that exact definition of salat being a ritual, and i argue that it is by pure defintion. Now you are arguing the the koran is a book for mankind guidance by context, yet the koran never says such thing.

The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men... This ayat, just as 1689, stands on its own, there is no context. Please don't put words in my mouth, thanks.

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Well, if Al-Quran is perfect, then, His guidance is fully detailed/explains everything, for His guidance is perfect, hence, His guidance can only be fully detailed in everything, relative to man's guidance.

if you want me to shut up and admit i am wrong, all you have to do is quote a verse that says exactly that the koran is "relative to man's guidance." Quote the exact verse. I when you cannot, just admit you are subjectively determing the purpose of the koran. That decription of "relative to man's guidance" is not in the koran exactly is it? No. You just admit it.

Relative, is my word, showing the connection between Quran's guidance and mankind. Per the following definition, mankind, is dependent upon Allah's guidance his salvation.

Main Entry RELATIVE a thing having a relation to or connection with or necessary dependence on another thing.

that is my point. there is always context. You are testifying to this. You admit the "everything" means in the context of "man spiritual guidance" yet when i point out the context of the verse, you get upset. Can you see you cannot have it both ways? Context is context,period. You cannot subjectively use it, THAT IS ABUSE!

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

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Ahhh, well, all of sudden you are using the term spiritual, eh? Where is spiritual mentioned in Al-Quran LOL? So, tell us, what is the relationship between material production, spiritual development, and Allah's guidance in Al-Quran?

i take that back (spiritual). I mean just guidance. matertial production can indeed be relate to guidance. If i have the intention of producing something with GOD in mind, why not can my material produce have a relationship to Allah guidances. Isnt this meterials thing of this world here for our guidance?

You can take it back, but, it shows your lack of honesty. If you were going to produce some material thing, why would you have Allah in mind?

so by your own admission, there is no term "spritual" in the Koran nor does GOD defines the Koran as "spiritual", so what is "spiritual" by context nonsense again?

Just as there is no term ritual or salaa as a ritual. So, how do you justify doing a ritual prayer?

i explain the context of verse 2951 a MILLION times. you are commited to believing what you want to believe with regards to that verse, so i give up.

Yeah, right.

LOL! Well, what is the Messenger conveying to his enemies? exactly, Al-Quran is a Book sent to them explainrd in detail, so follow it.

i was talking about the context of verse 2951. Muhammed was not conveying anything to his enemies. GOD was tell us why he allow enemies of nabis to make lies about them. See how you abuse it out of context?!?

Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.

Hmmm...recited means that...it had already been recited to people.

if the koran as fully-detailed in everything, there would have be guidlines to how to ride a bike. So i know it is used in context. Even you use the description of "everything" in context. Yet you deny the plain clear simply contex t of verses. I have give up. You simply refuse to use context all the time, that is why you subjectively abuse verses, because you dont be consistent in you argument. Context is subjectively used by you
!

You know what?, this Din...it simply is not for you to grasp, masha-Allah.

[Satan_Hates_Me]

i grow weiry.

The Quranic standard is for people to cover their private parts and if a woman walks around in public in a swimming suit whether it be a a bikini or one piece, her breasts and pubic area remain substantially exposed ecen though there is a thin piece of cloth covering those areas. For those who use their common sense/intellect, they would immediately know that a simming suit does not agree with the Quranic standard of modesty, unless, the genders were segregated in private pools or beaches.

"her breasts and pubic area remain substantially" by your standards. This my issue. Swiming suit and bikini vary in design, but the private parts are indeed cover. Do i need to post a diagram. wink

"Quranic standard of modesty"? Well list this koran standard of modesty and explain why a swiminng contradicts that standard.

My pointy is there is a different bewteen "fully-detailed" and "detailed in everything."

I agree that the Koran is fully-detailed. But i understand fully detailed as "all things necessary." You understand it as a "thorough detail listing." However, with that false understanding, arguments such as "where are the detailes for clothing" exposes the flaw in that understanding.
You still havent explain why swining suit is haram by koran standards. I didnt ask about "common sense" but Koran standards. Common sense vary from culture to culture.
Swiming suit do indeed cover the private parts but leave legs, stomach, arms, and other body parts expose. However these body parts are not "listed" in the Koran. So if you argument is "thorough detail listing" then show me how a swiming suit that exposes those body parts i listed above is haram?

Salaa, as a ritual prayer is a crime and the crime is shirk.

Show me the exact verse that state that stament, but remember if GOD didnt say it, you are saying it for him.

Relative, is my word, showing the connection between Quran's guidance and mankind. Per the following definition, mankind, is dependent upon Allah's guidance his salvation.

Okay, i agree. however, say "relative" and explain how than simply claim it is so.

that is my point. there is always context. You are testifying to this. You admit the "everything" means in the context of "man spiritual guidance" yet when i point out the context of the verse, you get upset. Can you see you cannot have it both ways? Context is context,period. You cannot subjectively use it, THAT IS ABUSE!

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I do. You have no idea what i am talking about. you still abuse certain verse, that why you dont understand.

You can take it back, but, it shows your lack of honesty. If you were going to produce some material thing, why would you have Allah in mind?

Remeber "send out of the things We have given them." That verse explain how everything a human posses can indeed to use as charity and ways of worship.

Just as there is no term ritual or salaa as a ritual. So, how do you justify doing a ritual prayer?

I can but that is another issue. If you want me to i can explain.

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i explain the context of verse 2951 a MILLION times. you are commited to believing what you want to believe with regards to that verse, so i give up.

Yeah, right.

LOL! Well, what is the Messenger conveying to his enemies? exactly, Al-Quran is a Book sent to them explainrd in detail, so follow it.

You are still abusing this veres, so you dont understand the context of it.

if the koran as fully-detailed in everything, there would have be guidlines to how to ride a bike. So i know it is used in context. Even you use the description of "everything" in context. Yet you deny the plain clear simply contex t of verses. I have give up. You simply refuse to use context all the time, that is why you subjectively abuse verses, because you dont be consistent in you argument. Context is subjectively used by you

!

You know what?, this Din...it simply is not for you to grasp, masha-Allah.

Do you know what EGO is? (5332)
Since i will never "grasp" this "complicated" Deen, why dont will simply drop it. To you is your way/deen and to me mine. Salaams Preist.

[unknownuser]

SHM

i grow weiry.

Get rest.

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The Quranic standard is for people to cover their private parts and if a woman walks around in public in a swimming suit whether it be a a bikini or one piece, her breasts and pubic area remain substantially exposed ecen though there is a thin piece of cloth covering those areas. For those who use their common sense/intellect, they would immediately know that a simming suit does not agree with the Quranic standard of modesty, unless, the genders were segregated in private pools or beaches.

"her breasts and pubic area remain substantially" by your standards. This my issue. Swiming suit and bikini vary in design, but the private parts are indeed cover. Do i need to post a diagram.

Well, according to you, my standard modesty is not supported by Al-Quran, so I ask you again, would you want your mother or sister to walk around in a swimming suit? Tell me, do you think Allah would be pleased with them, yes or no?

"Quranic standard of modesty"? Well list this koran standard of modesty and explain why a swiminng contradicts that standard.

An utterly ridiculous question to ask, My God.

My pointy is there is a different bewteen "fully-detailed" and "detailed in everything." I agree that the Koran is fully-detailed. But i understand fully detailed as "all things necessary."

Well, tell us, what do you mean by "all things necessary"? Please post the ayat where Allah defines what is necessary.

You understand it as a "thorough detail listing." However, with that false understanding, arguments such as "where are the detailes for clothing" exposes the flaw in that understanding.

Please don't attempt to speak for me, because you do not understand my position.

You still havent explain why swining suit is haram by koran standards. I didnt ask about "common sense" but Koran standards. Common sense vary from culture to culture. Swiming suit do indeed cover the private parts but leave legs, stomach, arms, and other body parts expose. However these body parts are not "listed" in the Koran. So if you argument is "thorough detail listing" then show me how a swiming suit that exposes those body parts i listed above is haram?

Just unbelievable...

Quote Salaa, as a ritual prayer is a crime and the crime is shirk.

Show me the exact verse that state that stament, but remember if GOD didnt say it, you are saying it for him.

733. Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.

734. Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.

735. Did Allah provide you the details in Al-Quran as how to perfrom the ritual prayer that you do, yes or no? If not, where did you get those details?

736. Did Allah, ever tell you to call Him..Akbar? Can you find any ayat where Allah defines Himself as...Allahu Akbar?

If you cannot do these things, then you are following the guidance of others and what they've ascribed to Allah, and not what Allah has ascribed to Himself. To do that is shirk, which, is the highest crime an individual can commit, because Allah does not forgive it.

Quote Just as there is no term ritual or salaa as a ritual. So, how do you justify doing a ritual prayer?

I can but that is another issue. If you want me to i can explain.

Yes, let's see your explanation.

You are still abusing this veres, so you dont understand the context of it.

Yeah, right.

if the koran as fully-detailed in everything, there would have be guidlines to how to ride a bike. So i know it is used in context. Even you use the description of "everything" in context. Yet you deny the plain clear simply contex t of verses. I have give up. You simply refuse to use context all the time, that is why you subjectively abuse verses, because you dont be consistent in you argument. Context is subjectively used by you

My God...

Do you know what EGO is? (5332)

You should ask yourself this very question.

Since i will never "grasp" this "complicated" Deen, why dont will simply drop it. To you is your way/deen and to me mine. Salaams Preist.

Done.

[Satan_Hates_Me]

1. Did Allah provide you the details in Al-Quran as how to perfrom the ritual prayer that you do, yes or no? If not, where did you get those details?

Did Allah provide you the details for modest clothing as in what body parts beside the private areas should not be expose, yes or no? If not, where did you get those details?

2. Did Allah, ever tell you to call Him..Akbar? Can you find any ayat where Allah defines Himself as...Allahu Akbar?

Did Allah, ever tell you to call the Koran..Spiritual guidance? Can you find any ayat where Allah defines the Koran as...Spiritual Guidance?

If you cannot do these things, then you are following the guidance of others and what they've ascribed to Allah, and not what Allah has ascribed to Himself. To do that is shirk, which, is the highest crime an individual can commit, because Allah does not forgive it.