Platonic friendships article - really interesting
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I get along with guys better as women tend to bring in a lot of drama.
I'd like to befriend you and show you warm womanly camaraderie...oh who am I kidding. Women suck. I'd probably talk about how very old you are and how you think you're too cool for school the moment my bff calls (that I will change with every year that passes).Females, however tend to be a bit competitive with each other.
Especially when there's a man involved, no end of backstabbing crits. In my stereotypical world, men physically stab and women mentally twist knives.On a more serious note, men are very competitive amongst themselves as well, and will waste no time manipulating events etc to their liking for example. As will women. Just a matter of different likes and angles. Of course, exceptions always exist. I always thought women were the money spenders when I saw a study somewhere which had men singled out as the biggest spendthrifts. Dangers of generalisations
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Salaam everyone!
I'd like to thank Rana for sharing my post on this thread. I saw the link via my blog stats, so I decided to register on free-minds to reply to some of the comments.
As I mentioned in my post, I find it extremely problematic when it is argued that men cannot control themselves in the presence of women. It relies on the popular stereotype about men being innately "sex-crazed," while implying that women are "delusional," "ignorant," and "naive" for believing that they actually have male friends. These stereotypes are only reinforced when we make generalizations like, "The only reason why you have guy friends is because they all want to sleep with you." Most of my friends are women and I know it is very possible to have friendships with the opposite without thinking of them in a romantic and/or sexual context.
Of course when people are married, the time spent with their opposite sex friends may be reduced significantly, but it doesn't mean one should kick their friends out of their lives. If, for instance, a Muslim man is getting married to a Muslim woman who has had a male friend since high school, what should the Muslim husband do? Force his wife to delete the male friend out of her life? That's not maturity. If trust and faithfulness is established, and two people truly and deeply Love each other, then they wouldn't feel so threatened by their partner having friends of the opposite sex. Everyone chooses to live their life however they wish. Personally, I am someone who would share everything with my partner, insha'Allah, and I will want to honor and respect her feelings. I believe a fully committed and devoted Love can still exist without having to remove friends from our lives.
This is why interaction and communication between the sexes is so important. Arguing that men only think of women as sex objects is not only sexist, but it also dismisses the responsibilities we have as Muslims. What's the point of teaching modesty, respect, and self-discipline in Islam if we're biologically programmed to be "singly sex-minded"? I speak as a heterosexual man who has never had any sexual relations, despite most of my friends being female. This personal choice has a lot to do with my faith, my devotion to God, and my ideas about Love. Even the Qur'an says that Allah will not place a burden upon us that is too hard for us to bear. The Qur'an says the Shaytaan can only call upon you and that he has no control over you. Islam teaches that we are all responsible for our actions and deeds. Instead of lazily placing the blame on "nature," let's turn inward and understand how we can control ourselves, and that we are much more than what socialized gender stereotypes teach about us.
I think it's unfortunate that some of the comments here are being shot down with insults. I don't know what's respectful about telling someone their being "naive" or "living in la la land" just because they have a different view than yours. An easy way to discredit and devalue someone's opinion is by insulting them, and it reveals your unwillingness to listen to them. If we are more respectful and have an open, mature discussion, then perhaps we can move forward and recognize our responsibilities.
bravo bravo bravo
I completely agree!
But I just would like to point out Jehanzeb, nevermind about the insults. Most people here on f-m know eachother well, some even in person. So if it sounds a little bit insulting, please forgive them, especially Leyna and SEid, those two kids are crazy peace
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Brother Emil,
Never at any point did I say a woman couldn't protect herself so I don't know where that came from. I also don't think it's condescending to say that many men have motives other than friendship. I also think you're treading on thin ice by having female friends who have crushes on you. That's just my humble opinion though.
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Brother Emil,
Never at any point did I say a woman couldn't protect herself so I don't know where that came from. I also don't think it's condescending to say that many men have motives other than friendship. I also think you're treading on thin ice by having female friends who have crushes on you. That's just my humble opinion though.
Dear Duke
I am sorry I interpreted below wrong
Not saying that you shouldn't have any friends of the opposite sex just be very careful when choosing those friends because most men do have other motives.
I am so used to people saying "women should stay home/cover up/ not socialize with males because men are not to be trusted". Sorry for not reading your post more carefully. I also took it for granted that you meant the majority of men when you wrote "most men". Because that would be in fact condensending towards us, the majority of men, who are perfectly capable of staying away from married women. Even if we happen to be the bestest of friends.
Anyways. My post was a bit of an experiment. I am sorry to have tricked you, but I just wanted you to realize the complexity of the question in hand. There is an enormous amount of different types of friendships and attractions. You automatically thought that my female friend who has a crush on me is probably about the same age as me and probably single. Well, that is not true. In fact, the age difference is more than 30 years. The girl in question is my neighbour's kid whom I consider a friend because we hang out all the time when she playing with my kids. She sits in my lap and whisper secrets in my ear. The biggest secret however is what she told her mother and not me, that when she gets older she wants to marry me.
So you see what I am getting at? The relations between men and women are far more complicated than what you would expect, and to make generalisations is very dangerous. You might be in danger setting up prohibitions that will in fact destroy marriages, not protect them.Sure, I agree with you. In some certain friendships there can be an element of attraction, but that is more natural than unnatural. You can be friends with someone who is married or not interested in you and feel attracted to her/him, as long as you do not transgress the boundaries of the friendship. After all, good friends are hard to find. Nobody has ever claimed a person goes against Allah if they fall in love with the wrong person. There are guidelines AND punishments however if you would act on it. If a friend would in fact be so attracted to another friend that she/he would overstep the boundaries and not respect her/his marriage, first then I agree with you that it is better not to be friends anymore.
Your initial thought of a person seems to be that he/she cannot be trusted. I believe the opposite.
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woman complain about how competitive women are and how they get along so much better with males but yet perfectly ok if their husbands have female friends? Hmmm.....
if your husband's female friend is attractive, in good shape, highly educated, multi-talented, great personality....and let's say that your husband is a great guy, would never cross the line but how many wives here would be perfectly ok with him having such a friend? let's be honest to ourselves. putting the husband aside making him an non-issue, how would the two of you get along?
also, depending on the nature of the friendship can be considered having an 'emotional affair' after marriage.
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woman complain about how competitive women are and how they get along so much better with males but yet perfectly ok if their husbands have female friends? Hmmm.....
if your husband's female friend is attractive, in good shape, highly educated, multi-talented, great personality....and let's say that your husband is a great guy, would never cross the line but how many wives here would be perfectly ok with him having such a friend? let's be honest to ourselves. putting the husband aside making him an non-issue, how would the two of you get along?
also, depending on the nature of the friendship can be considered having an 'emotional affair' after marriage.
I'd bet most women will gouge his eyes out in his sleep... voodoo lol
Yes, I am feeling a bit defensive, and I was just wondering why. Maybe it didn't necessarily have to do with your statements but with the general tone in this thread, the personal attacks, ridiculing and patronizing done by some people.
O' why get all defensive about prancing about with married men... ;D
But I just would like to point out Jehanzeb, nevermind about the insults. Most people here on f-m know eachother well, some even in person. So if it sounds a little bit insulting, please forgive them, especially Leyna and SEid, those two kids are crazy
Everyone is a bit crazy and kind of wondering if there would be an issue with your girlfriend or wife befriending a guy like me; perhaps a movie and dinner we can talk about the latest fashions like Victoria Secrets in a friendly way of course since I have complete control enjoy the intellectual aspects of conversation.
I always thought women were the money spenders when I saw a study somewhere which had men singled out as the biggest spendthrifts.
True about loving to spend and a shopping spree will probably buy a man out of most anything ...
http//i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/10/02/article-0-02DF3D7100000578-944_468x417.jpg
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Brother Emil,
I must respectfully disagree. You're interpretation of my post was correct. I believe that the majority of men have no inclination to stay away from married women. I feel that given the opportunity most men would go after a married woman just like a single woman if not more aggressively. That's if they thought they actually had a chance of getting her.
Like sister Leyna said though that could just be a difference in cultures and location.
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Brother Emil,
I must respectfully disagree. You're interpretation of my post was correct. I believe that the majority of men have no inclination to stay away from married women. I feel that given the opportunity most men would go after a married woman just like a single woman if not more aggressively. That's if they thought they actually had a chance of getting her.
Like sister Leyna said though that could just be a difference in cultures and location.
Dear Duke
You are right. Leyna is German and I am Swedish. I agree totally with her that the US has a very conservative view compared to European. I am sorry you have to live in such a society where every man should be considered a threat to your marriage.
Everyone is a bit crazy and kind of wondering if there would be an issue with your girlfriend or wife befriending a guy like me; perhaps a movie and dinner we can talk about the latest fashions like Victoria Secrets in a friendly way of course since I have complete control enjoy the intellectual aspects of conversation. ;
My wife is a tough cookie. Be careful, coz she would chew you up and spit you out. peace
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From this thread it is apparent that men and women's self control are held in very low esteem. Look it takes two to tango. If two people end up having sex, then it is either they both consented or there was rape (which is criminal).
I think that it is important for men and women to become friends. As a married man I can say that by having women friends I learn more how women think and I can then respond better to my wife. If a man is having a problem with his wife it is good for him to speak to a woman about it especially if it can help him understand his wife better. It can be a vehicle for a stronger marriage and can also help to improve understanding between the spouses.
It also breaks down the wall that women are only objects for a mans pleasure. I have two daughters and they are very bright and I would hate for their spouse to treat them only like an object for his pleasure. A marriage works when both people are interested in making the other happy even if it means giving up something for themselves. If a woman is only there for a mans pleasure then that is IMO slavery.
Just my thoughts,
JewishDudeSalam, Shalom, Peace
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woman complain about how competitive women are and how they get along so much better with males but yet perfectly ok if their husbands have female friends? Hmmm.....
if your husband's female friend is attractive, in good shape, highly educated, multi-talented, great personality....and let's say that your husband is a great guy, would never cross the line but how many wives here would be perfectly ok with him having such a friend? let's be honest to ourselves. putting the husband aside making him an non-issue, how would the two of you get along?
also, depending on the nature of the friendship can be considered having an 'emotional affair' after marriage.
Salaam justamuslim
But you are talking about jealousy, not platonic relationships. What some seem to claim is that once married you are not to have friends of the opposite sex anymore. I understand if one is reluctant/jealous to his/her spouse hanging out with handsome men or beautiful women, but that has nothing to do with from beginning to say that once in a relation we are supposed to only keep same gender friends.
The Quran teaches us that we are not to prohibit or outlaw things just because we don't know how to emotially or practically deal with it. It teaches YOU to be righteous and keep yourself away from sin. The Quran does not prohibit friendship. On the contrary, it teaches you to have healthy friendships and how to respect eachother no matter of sex, background, religion or race.
Instead of walking around not trusting, like Duke seems to be doing, we should believe in ourselves and others. You should find respect and trust in your spouse and his/her friends. Letting jealousy and mistrust cloud your mind and judgement is not what Allah wants.The whole gender policy in islam has been saturated with emotions, power-hunger and jealousy. People have in their insecurity or when standing on loose ground mis-used Allah's power to give their arguments more status. I am personally sick of hearing islam entering deep into private relationships. You name it, and islam has a point of view or tells you what to or not to do.
Allah has helped me to better myself. I use the Quran to overcome negative sides, like jealousy or mistrust. I don't use it trying to change my surroundings so it better fits what I think is right, I use it to better myself.
When I read threads like this one I get a little confused. Am I the only one thinking that Allah wants us to overcome our bad sides and strive in our lives to be good people? Why do people think it is ok to be jealous or not trust when the Quran teaches you the opposite? Why is it ok to prohibit or not approve when it is based on jealousy, distrust or conservatism but not ok if whatever subject may force us to actually trust or to leave us open to the risk of being hurt?So, if one don't like his/her better half to hang out with a person of the opposite sex one should not say that one don't like it or even forbid it. Instead, you should look inside yourself and with the help of Allah find a way to overcome this bad side and hopefully become more humble and tolerant as a person.
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Wow ladies and gents I think this is the first time I ever heard the US called conservative. That's an interesting concept.
Anyways, good points y'all. Maybe it's just the fact that here in the states adultery is so rampant that we are just suspicious of others motives. What if your spouse had a friend and the three of you hung out together and you felt uneasy about that guy or girl. How would that situation be handled?
I'm just asking a question Leyna don't bite my head off.....just kidding sister. I would like to especially hear you and Emil's response.
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Salam,
Since there is different opinions, lets consult the book of God, anyone know any specific verses regarding this issue in quran? or is quran not complete and detailed? Not a single verse mentioned in this thread! My knowledge of quran is very little, but input from anyone who studied this issue in quran would be appreciated. -
From this thread it is apparent that men and women's self control are held in very low esteem. Look it takes two to tango. If two people end up having sex, then it is either they both consented or there was rape (which is criminal).
I think that it is important for men and women to become friends. As a married man I can say that by having women friends I learn more how women think and I can then respond better to my wife. If a man is having a problem with his wife it is good for him to speak to a woman about it especially if it can help him understand his wife better. It can be a vehicle for a stronger marriage and can also help to improve understanding between the spouses.
It also breaks down the wall that women are only objects for a mans pleasure. I have two daughters and they are very bright and I would hate for their spouse to treat them only like an object for his pleasure. A marriage works when both people are interested in making the other happy even if it means giving up something for themselves. If a woman is only there for a mans pleasure then that is IMO slavery.
bravo
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Salam,
Since there is different opinions, lets consult the book of God, anyone know any specific verses regarding this issue in quran? or is quran not complete and detailed? Not a single verse mentioned in this thread! My knowledge of quran is very little, but input from anyone who studied this issue in quran would be appreciated.9.71 The believen men and the believing women are awlya', friends, protectors, of one another... on them will Allah pour his mercy...
There are many other ayas all over the Qur'an qhere it says without specifying sex, that believers are awlia' one of another, in this aya sex is specified. NOWHERE, NOWHERE in the Qur'an it is said that there is any kind of restriction on friendship between men and women. Then if it speaks repeatedly about friendship between the believers and goes on to say that believing men and women are friends one of another, where is the question, where is the restriction, where is the warning?
Some say tht the warning is in "go not near el fahisha". Fine, those who feel that by having a friend of the opposite sex are nearing the fahisha, they are warned, those who do not feel so, are not prevented from having friends of the opposite sex. It also may occur that one b?may be nearing the fahisha also by being friends with persons of the same sex, say that someone says let's go this hot place where girls... or simply because someone may feel attracted sexually to a person of the same sex...
So no warning about friends of the opposite sex, but about nearing fahisha.
And I point out that we are not given much choice, it is that in the natural order of things male and female believers are friends one of another...
Salaam
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My wife is a tough cookie. Be careful, coz she would chew you up and spit you out. peace
Why would she do that to a friend...lol
The whole discussion is pointless; why would your wife want a male friend when she has you?
I can understand being friends to both else couldn't imagine the scenario
Who's your friend?
O' that's Eid, we're going out to have dinner talk about platonic friendships.
He's my long time friend you know and we really bond together well.
OK have fun! -
Why would she do that to a friend...lol
The whole discussion is pointless; why would your wife want a male friend when she has you?
I can understand being friends to both else couldn't imagine the scenario
Who's your friend?
O' that's Eid, we're going out to have dinner talk about platonic friendships.
He's my long time friend you know and we really bond together well.
OK have fun!If you have a proper marriage, your spouse doesn't need revelations of that kind, he or she would be long time ago well aware of who your friends are and probably know personally quite well. Don' fantasize. However it may be a shock to you, that kind of thing is very common and nobody has to imagine scenarios, it happens every day in front of everybody and there is no secret nor anything to hide or reserve. The inability of some people to imagine something is not to be mistaken for the imposibility of that something existing.
Salaam
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Salam,
Thank you Huruf,
I am not for or against it as I dont have sure proof from quran due to my lack of in depth study of quran. This is a translation from The Message on free-minds3353 O you who believe, do not enter the homes of the prophet unless
you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation.
But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish
eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a narrative.
This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But
God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives
for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for
your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the
messenger of God, nor that you should marry his wives after him.
This is indeed a gross offence with God.If it is correct, then does it imply that those believers as well as Prophet's wives did not have self control? or have I have misunderstood the verse?
Thank you for the reply. -
Why would she do that to a friend...lol
The whole discussion is pointless; why would your wife want a male friend when she has you?
I can understand being friends to both else couldn't imagine the scenario
Who's your friend?
O' that's Eid, we're going out to have dinner talk about platonic friendships.
He's my long time friend you know and we really bond together well.
OK have fun!LOL!
Dear SEid.
Yes. I see absolutely nothing wrong with above scenario. My wife is my wife and if she chooses to jeopardize our marriage, then she will lose me. Until that day I trust her.
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