Platonic friendships article - really interesting
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Peace Rana, all
Good article. Thanks for sharing.
I mostly agree with what the author says in his article. But I don't agree with everything the author says about masculinity. There is a difference between masculine men and macho men. It seems like the author misunderstands what masculinity is. A masculine man is a man that takes responsibility, is a hard worker, is a provider, is able to protect himself (self-defence). A man can stand for equal rights, support women rights and still be masculine. And still have a masculine vibe/energy. You don't need to loose masculinity to support women rights. And It seems that the author believes there are small differences between men and women, which is a myth. There are huge differences between women and men that go beyound socialization. This is reality. And this is a very controversial topic. In the politically correct societies of the west it is almost taboo to talk about the differences between women and men. Because from an early age we learn that women and men are not very different. We learn that our differences is mostly because of socialization. But that's a lie. The truth is that men and women are very different. The brain of women and men are different. And women and men have different abilities. and there are lots of other differences between men and women. It is how our nature is. Men and women are intelligent on the same level. Women are not more intelligent than men. And men are not more intelligent than women. Women have abilities that men lack, and men have abilities that women lack. Masculinity and feminity is biologically programmed in human beings. It is hardwired into us. But it needs to be activated. A balance. Ying and Yang you know
A man can only be happy when he is masculine. And a woman can only be happy when she is feminine. A man can be masculine, and still be emotional. A woman can be feminine and still be strong. A man is happy when he acts like a man. Not when he acts like a woman. Just like a dog only can be happy when it acts like a dog. If a dog plays the role of a cat, it can't be happy. You probably get my point. Many people are brainwashed by feminist propaganda, they believe in the myths of feminism. And many people are brainwashed by the male chauvinistic ideology, they believe in the myths of male chauvinism and patriarchy. Why be a feminist when you can be a HUMAN? Why be a male chauvinist when you can be a HUMAN?
By the way, these days I don't believe in equality anymore. Now I believe in equal rights and equal opportunities instead of equality. How can men and women be equal when they are different? That's illogical. Why can't we celebrate our differences? Why should women look like men and men look like women? Isn't it stupid? However, if any one can convince me why equality is important I will change my mind.
And when it comes to friends. I only have one friend of the opposite sex. Not because don't want more friends from the opposite sex. But because almost no women see me as a friend '( Almost every women I have been friends with wanted to get to know me on a personal level. Especially the last couple of years. They were attracted to me So whenever a woman says she wants to be my friend, it is hard for me to trust her (because of my past experiences). And many women have hidden intentions (just like many men). They say that they want to be your friend but they have other plans for you. Lol. Talk is cheap. So I would rather hang out with my male friends. Haha ;D And NO, we don't talk about things most guys talk about. We don't talk about sports, cars etc. But I think basketball is a good sport. And it can be fun too
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Salam,
Thank you Huruf,
I am not for or against it as I dont have sure proof from quran due to my lack of in depth study of quran. This is a translation from The Message on free-minds3353 O you who believe, do not enter the homes of the prophet unless
you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation.
But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish
eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a narrative.
This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But
God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives
for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for
your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the
messenger of God, nor that you should marry his wives after him.
This is indeed a gross offence with God.If it is correct, then does it imply that those believers as well as Prophet's wives did not have self control? or have I have misunderstood the verse?
Thank you for the reply.Salaam, Muslim,
This aya you quote has nothing to do with friendship. It deals with the Prophet home and with the Prophet family in a context in which the Prophet is a public figure, a public servant. It is the Prophet's and the Prophets family's privacy, as well as good social manners in general, what is being protected. There are other ayas of this kind in the Qur'an.
You wouldn't like yourself people keeping coming into your home any hour of the day and making themselves comfortable, so that the members of your family cannot go about their business or cannot relax their appearance while at home and so on... I wouldn't. On the other hand, in this aya, as well as in other ayas it is also made clear that the conditions regarding the Prophet's wives is completely apart from the conditions regarding any other women. So what is said about them specifically does not concern any other women. To start with, once widdows, they could not remarry. So this aya, even without what I have said, would not apply to other women, except for whatever is applicable to people in general regarding good manners and so on.Salaam
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Hi David,
you speak a lot about men and women being different, having different abilities etc. pp. ? but what does that have to do with the subject of this thread? Do you think that the differences between men and women make platonic friendships impossible? Or what is the point?
Many people are brainwashed by feminist propaganda, they believe in the myths of feminism. And many people are brainwashed by the male chauvinistic ideology, they believe in the myths of male chauvinism and patriarchy. Why be a feminist when you can be a HUMAN?
For me, being a feminist simply means that we should not accept women being discriminated against in any form because of their gender; it means speaking up when you see that happening ? just as we should speak up whenever we see any form of injustice against someone happening. What's the problem with that?
As for "myths of feminism" etc. ? maybe we should continue discussing this in the relevant thread and not here, since it will just derail this conversation.
How can men and women be equal when they are different? That's illogical. Why can't we celebrate our differences? Why should women look like men and men look like women?
With all respect, I don't see what this has to do with the subject at hand. Nobody here has said that men should look like women and women should look like men. confused We were talking about friendships. But since you mentioned "celebrating our differences" ? I agree with what has been written above, that because men and women are different in some aspects, it can be very beneficial to have platonic friends of the opposite gender, so that we learn to understand each other better. There's a huge difference in talking about someone or with someone; and I always appreciate getting male input on some issues.
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Peace Rana, all )
Good article. Thanks for sharing.
I mostly agree with what the author says in his article. But I don't agree with everything the author says about masculinity. There is a difference between masculine men and macho men. It seems like the author misunderstands what masculinity is. A masculine man is a man that takes responsibility, is a hard worker, is a provider, is able to protect himself (self-defence). A man can stand for equal rights, support women rights and still be masculine. And still have a masculine vibe/energy. You don't need to loose masculinity to support women rights. And It seems that the author believes there are small differences between men and women, which is a myth. There are huge differences between women and men that go beyound socialization. This is reality. And this is a very controversial topic. In the politically correct societies of the west it is almost taboo to talk about the differences between women and men. Because from an early age we learn that women and men are not very different. We learn that our differences is mostly because of socialization. But that's a lie. The truth is that men and women are very different. The brain of women and men are different. And women and men have different abilities. and there are lots of other differences between men and women. It is how our nature is. Men and women are intelligent on the same level. Women are not more intelligent than men. And men are not more intelligent than women. Women have abilities that men lack, and men have abilities that women lack. Masculinity and feminity is biologically programmed in human beings. It is hardwired into us. But it needs to be activated. A balance. Ying and Yang you know P
A man can only be happy when he is masculine. And a woman can only be happy when she is feminine. A man can be masculine, and still be emotional. A woman can be feminine and still be strong. A man is happy when he acts like a man. Not when he acts like a woman. Just like a dog only can be happy when it acts like a dog. If a dog plays the role of a cat, it can't be happy. You probably get my point. Many people are brainwashed by feminist propaganda, they believe in the myths of feminism. And many people are brainwashed by the male chauvinistic ideology, they believe in the myths of male chauvinism and patriarchy. Why be a feminist when you can be a HUMAN? Why be a male chauvinist when you can be a HUMAN?
By the way, these days I don't believe in equality anymore. Now I believe in equal rights and equal opportunities instead of equality. How can men and women be equal when they are different? That's illogical. Why can't we celebrate our differences? Why should women look like men and men look like women? Isn't it stupid? However, if any one can convince me why equality is important I will change my mind.
And when it comes to friends. I only have one friend of the opposite sex. Not because don't want more friends from the opposite sex. But because almost no women see me as a friend '( Almost every women I have been friends with wanted to get to know me on a personal level. Especially the last couple of years. They were attracted to me ( So whenever a woman says she wants to be my friend, it is hard for me to trust her (because of my past experiences). And many women have hidden intentions (just like many men). They say that they want to be your friend but they have other plans for you. Lol. Talk is cheap. So I would rather hang out with my male friends. Haha ;D And NO, we don't talk about things most guys talk about. We don't talk about sports, cars etc. But I think basketball is a good sport. And it can be fun too
I could not disagree more with this. Starting from the starting point of putting things on its head by assuming that the core question is that of equality and not of justice. Precisely it is the assertion of equality as the principal contention that leads to injustice downstream if people are unequal one must treat them unequally. So I reject comletely that anyone, and least of all feminists, have ever cared principally about equality. It is clear that women and men are not equal. The reproducion burden obviously is completely and overwhelmely unequal. But it is the contention of many antifeminists that what feminists seek is equality. Obviously core feminism along history has never pretended such a thing, because then there would only be one sex. But antifeminists choose and persist in saying that that is what feminists seek. No. Justice, justice, justice.
Then the other trick of this kind of dicourse derived from the first is to make out of the difference between females and males a sort of elastic material where you can establish between women and men any characteristic that may come to mind as difference between men and women, and stretch the thing to discretion, saying that the differences between males ar female go way beyond biological differences to comprise psychological differences and unquatifiable, but usable factors that nobody can certify. We are back to square one and, for instance, women only have that emotional disponibility and disposition that makes them unique to do the washing, clean babies shit, vacuum the carpet and so on. Biological differences need no arguing and nobody argues abut them. The rest is litterature, and not very good at that. And I am baffled that anybdy should look for "extras" as far as differences are concerned, when in fact biological differences already entail plenty, plenty plenty, and certainly it is squeezed to the utmost to extract dividends.
There is another point. Since those "masculine" (meaning characteristics "real" men have) and "feminine" (meaning characteristics "real" women have) are so clear, any man or woman who deviates from such clear conception as what is manly and what is womanly, gets stamped as "feminist" or virago and the equivalent for sissy menor whatever they get, and those are manufactured into a personal intimate and untractable problem fofor those people, when in fact it is a mental construct of those who refuse to acknowledge that psychology is personal, individual and not sexual, or racial or collective in any way. It is this absolutely arbitrary conception that has made life a hell for many men and women who happen to not be what is stipulated as manly or womanly, and in this specific aspect, I think that it is "feminine" men who are more repressed and punished. Woman have it bad, but I think may be not as bad. And then some people disparage about homosexuality and that kind of thing when in fact they make it impossible for certain men to be themselves. If that is not cornering and cruelty, I do not know what it is.
In fact I would laugh at this whole thing if it wasn't so painful and tragic for so many poersons who are penalized all their lifes for being "different". And that is on the extreme of it. Without going to the extrems, many people are forced to assume attitudes and manners which they wouldn't if they were not socialised on that, and socialisation is not mere sloganising, but myriad of reactions, actions attitudes which we are not even conscious of and which point the way unequivocally everywhere and under every circumstance for everybody. No matter what anybody does, at this stage it is simply not possible to delimit or disengage what is innate and what is socialisation. To pretend that that can be done is a chimera, a fraud and a trick.
Also when you start from saying that some things are manly and others are womanly, you are bludgeoning freedom of choice as you say, because who is the man or woman who wants to be branded unmanly or unwomanly? The fact is that there have been millions of men and woman to whom that has been done. A medal, a gold medal to human bigotry and cruelty, enormous cruelty, should be handed to societies for that.
"Femine" and "masculine" are abstract qualities and, as Ibn Arabi and other monuments of thought and spirituality have said, both qualities exist in men and women. They are necessary for men and women. The balance of those qualitie is what makes al insan al kamil.
Lastly and most vigorously the Qur'an nowhere condones such vision. It rejects it. No moral or psychological quality is branded as manly or womanly anywhere. The opposite.
Point to a single line in the whole of Qur'an that points to differences between man a woman other than reproductive function. And at that, the Qur'an does not even impose suckling on the woman...
What is important, is not to seek for additional differences between men and women, but to strengthen the sense of mutual and general responsibility of both. Men do not have any reproductive charge, therefore it is obvious, not because of any psychological specific disposition, but because of plain moral decency that they must assume other charges if they do not want to be reproductive pimps who live off women. And in fact there are men who do that, live off women to whatever extent and do not balance any of women's burden. That is not because of any manly disposition, but because of moral wickedness, they are morally pimps, and therefore unworthy men, and there is nothing psychological in that, but moral.
Salaam
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I repect what leyna says about getting off the theme of the thread.
If the moderators want to move David K's and my message to another thread, please. I do not want to derail it.
Huruf, I agree with everything you wrote, thanks for putting it so eloquently. peace
Maybe you can post your contribution in the thread about feminism? You touch on many issues that were being discussed there and it would be a valuable contribution.
'Gender Jihad' in the Service of Women's Rights
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Salam,
Thank you huruf for the reply, the reason I quoted the ayah was that I did not fully understand the part "...ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts", could you kindly explain what this specific part means. -
My understanding is that it goes with the content of the whole aya. They are not any women. It would be human that people, (I point out that from the text there is no indication that it refers to males exclusively, since it is addressed in plural to those who have believed, and it doesn not make an exception for women) have some curiosity and ponder about the Prophet's wives and may even find food for imagination in the countenance or attitude or expression of the wives. It may also be a precaution against gossip. Also, since it seems that people may come anannounced, that they, the wives, do not have to be dressed up, or uncomfortably the whole day because of visitors, and that again, people find food for gossip in the way they dress or show themselves. The prohibition that comes immediately after of marrying the Prophet's widows would point in that direction. Traditionnally, gossiping about women has always been more tempting than gossiping about men. And I think that it still is.
We still have the sura An-Nur in which a few pages are dedicated precisely to indict the slandering of women. It is very easy and tempting. It comes from hadith, but it is said that the woman involved in the event was Aixa. No matter, it is clear that it made a lot of dust and of impurity for the believers, who gave in to gossip and believing the worst. Purity in an-Nur seems to refer not only to sexual misconduct but to make a slander of it.
May be other posters can say something further.
Salaam
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Hi David,
you speak a lot about men and women being different, having different abilities etc. pp. ? but what does that have to do with the subject of this thread? Do you think that the differences between men and women make platonic friendships impossible? Or what is the point?
Peace Leyna )
I have not spoken a lot about men and women being different in this forum. As far as I know, I have talked about it just a couple of times in this forum. Maybe you didn't mean what you said literally.
What it has to do with the subject of this thread? I think it is very relevant since I commented what the author said in his article. In my opinion I didn't write anything that was off topic in my post.
No, I don't think the differences between men and women make platonic friendships impossible. And that's why I have a female friend. And that's why I love women. And that's why I love to talk to women. And that's why I have had many female acquaintances.
For me, being a feminist simply means that we should not accept women being discriminated against in any form because of their gender; it means speaking up when you see that happening ? just as we should speak up whenever we see any form of injustice against someone happening. What's the problem with that?
I respect peoples choice of labels. And understand that some people like to call themselves feminists. So forget what I said about being a Human instead of a feminist. It was unecesary to say it, and not very fruitful. But even dough I respect something, it doesn't mean that I agree with everything about it. I know that the word feminist is just a label. Just like any other label. Someone who helps people psychologically can be a therapist. Someone who helps people loose weight, can be a nutritionist. So there is no problem with labels. There is no problem with isms. I understand the importance of labels. However, labels can make people identify themselves too much with something that is abstract and has nothing to do with reality. And a label is harmless just like a shadow. But sometimes the substance which is connected to the shadow is not in alignment with reality. If a label gives a false feeling of identity outside the true system of mankind, then the label can become a problem. And if the label exclude instead instead include, then the label can become a bigger problem.
Your explanation of what feminism is sounds reasonable to me. And It seems good. I respect your choice of label. However, it does not seem ideal in my opinion. And ideal things are important in my opinon.
For me, being a monotheist simply means following the natural system of mankind. And I am a member of humankind. Not of any group, ideology, man-made idea, abstract theory, or invented reality. And in my opinion any injustice, whether it happens to women or men, should be destroyed for ever.
As for "myths of feminism" etc. ? maybe we should continue discussing this in the relevant thread and not here, since it will just derail this conversation.
I get your point. Thanks for the offer. But I think I will pass.
With all respect, I don't see what this has to do with the subject at hand. Nobody here has said that men should look like women and women should look like men. confused We were talking about friendships. But since you mentioned "celebrating our differences" ? I agree with what has been written above, that because men and women are different in some aspects, it can be very beneficial to have platonic friends of the opposite gender, so that we learn to understand each other better. There's a huge difference in talking about someone or with someone; and I always appreciate getting male input on some issues.
Yes I know. Nobody here has said that men should look like women and vice versa, but it seems that the author of the article believe that masculinity does harm to our society, and since this thread is about the article of the author, i thought what I said might be relevant. Thats why I said what I said. And I disagree with the author. There is a difference between being a masculine male and being a macho male. And anyone who is impartial and analyze this with an objective frame of mind will understand the difference between those two concepts.
I also think that it can be very beneficial to have platonic friendships of the opposite gender. And I also appreciate getting female input on some issues.
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Thank you very much huruf for the explaination.
The point about them not just being men had never crossed my mind, so thank you. -
This is why interaction and communication between the sexes is so important. Arguing that men only think of women as sex objects is not only sexist, but it also dismisses the responsibilities we have as Muslims. What's the point of teaching modesty, respect, and self-discipline in Islam if we're biologically programmed to be "singly sex-minded"? I speak as a heterosexual man who has never had any sexual relations, despite most of my friends being female. This personal choice has a lot to do with my faith, my devotion to God, and my ideas about Love. Even the Qur'an says that Allah will not place a burden upon us that is too hard for us to bear. The Qur'an says the Shaytaan can only call upon you and that he has no control over you. Islam teaches that we are all responsible for our actions and deeds. Instead of lazily placing the blame on "nature," let's turn inward and understand how we can control ourselves, and that we are much more than what socialized gender stereotypes teach about us.
Welcome to the forum Jehanzab - very happy to have your input and I must say that the above quote really sums things up so well. Why teach modesty, respect and self-discipline if we have no control - exactly, and yes, we are extremely lazy in blaming nature all the time. bravo
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Do you have all the same friends you had as a child? Do you feel you lost yourself because you don't? Priorities change interests change and friends change at times.
That is a really good point Duke.
I have read the rest of your response too and I accept that each person must decide (though shouldn't be forcing their partner). For some people to finish with opposite sex friendships upon marriage might be better for them, or make more sense to them. Though, I wonder if those friendships perhaps weren't as deep in the first place, as the ones that some other fm members have described? It may be that if you believe that when you marry your opposite-sex friendships should come to an end then you would not (even sub-consciously) spend that much effort in building those friendships. I guess what I'm saying is that there are different types and different levels of friendship and it's probably hard to compare.
This is a good reminder to make sure you talk thoroughly to your prospective spouse prior to marriage about your expectations.
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From this thread it is apparent that men and women's self control are held in very low esteem. Look it takes two to tango. If two people end up having sex, then it is either they both consented or there was rape (which is criminal).
I think that it is important for men and women to become friends. As a married man I can say that by having women friends I learn more how women think and I can then respond better to my wife. If a man is having a problem with his wife it is good for him to speak to a woman about it especially if it can help him understand his wife better. It can be a vehicle for a stronger marriage and can also help to improve understanding between the spouses.
It also breaks down the wall that women are only objects for a mans pleasure. I have two daughters and they are very bright and I would hate for their spouse to treat them only like an object for his pleasure. A marriage works when both people are interested in making the other happy even if it means giving up something for themselves. If a woman is only there for a mans pleasure then that is IMO slavery.
Just my thoughts,
JewishDudeSalam, Shalom, Peace
peace JewishDude
Great points to add to this discussion, thank you. In particular that men and women learn a lot about each other from being friends. If you have nothing to do with the other sex then how do you learn to relate to each other? hmm In many cases, you don't. )"It also breaks down the wall that women are only objects for a mans pleasure." - yes bravo
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What if your spouse had a friend and the three of you hung out together and you felt uneasy about that guy or girl. How would that situation be handled?
I know you addressed this to Leyna...but I was keen to answer when I saw it
While I don't deny that intuition can turn up wrong, in my experience most of the time I have felt uneasy in a situation that you have described above, it has turned out to be because I couldn't trust either the man or the woman or both. So I think often you can sense those things...but it doesn't necessarily mean that something is going to happen. If it's the woman and your husband has self-discipline or isn't interested then it's not going to happen is it?
However I have met people who don't seem to have this whole intuition thing going for them. I have been accused of things where there was NOTHING going on and it made it difficult to continue in the relationship. I guess I can only speak for myself on this one - I am not an overly jealous person and I am a reasonable (though not 100% correct) judge of these situations.
In case you are wondering I have never told anyone I've been involved with that they cannot be friends with someone. I have given advice regarding whether I think that certain people are good friends to them and whether I think that I/they can trust the person. After that it's up to them to make the decision and if they make a decision I don't agree with or I don't like then I have to deal with it.
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Almost every women I have been friends with wanted to get to know me on a personal level. Especially the last couple of years. They were attracted to me Sad So whenever a woman says she wants to be my friend, it is hard for me to trust her (because of my past experiences).
you must be quite the good looking guy then eh? eat
oh and welcome back
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oh and welcome back )
Thanks )