Hijab: private, apparent & 7 conditions
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I just want to check if I am on the right track with hijab in terms of how to interpret it using Quran only. I?ve used this site http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm
From there it says ?The following verses tells women to guard their private parts (i.e. genitalia) and cover their chests? but it?s ok to show what is apparent.
So "misconceptions" works out what is apparent by working backwards?by working out what is meant by ?striking of the feet?. Which is the private parts, buttocks, thighs, breasts, hips. So then it refers to a revealing through ?movement?? Is that how most people here understand it?
Continuing then, if we take those parts of the body out then anything left is considered apparent? Face, hair, hands, feet (from misconceptions site)? and arms?! ? so short sleeves would be ok then ? and legs!?!! ? the lower part anyway.
Gosh. That makes it a hugely different interpretation to the majority one. I was pointed towards (and fully bought) the ?7 conditions of hijab? (found here http//sisters.islamway.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3) and I'm gradually reducing it's grip on my life.
Now that I think about it though, while I did my checking (and bent over backwards to make excuses for some of what I found too) for many Islamic issues, I don?t think I ever scrutinized this one?just did it hypno
So the purpose of this post, in case it got lost, is really just to ask your opionions. That interpretation certainly makes sense. So is the Quranist consensus (lol - sorry I just can't think of a better way to put it right now) that we should dress modestly (obviously) with apparent meaning everything but private parts, buttocks, thighs, breasts, hips, therefore the face, arms, hands, chest (above the breasts), lower legs and feet all ??apparent??.
peace Rana
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let's take rules 4-7
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The female clothing must not resemble the man's clothing.
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The design of the clothing must not resemble the clothing of the non believing women.
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The design must not consist of bold designs which attract attention.
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Clothing should not be worn for the sole purpose of gaining reputation or increasing one's status in society.
how do non-believing women dress? are jeans and shirts not allowed? what would be considered 'bold designs'?
I don't get number 7. If I am giving a speech at a conference, or going to a formal dinner hosted by the governor, well don't you think I need to dress for the occasion?
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peace
I hear you with number 7. So much depends on how we dress. I do remember hearing at one time that the way we dress can be adjusted depending on where we live - the common style of dress found, whether it's hot or cold etc - and what we do...i.e. being fit for purpose. Then again I also heard much to the contrary. It always seemed a bit strange to me that some people would act as though women shouldn't swim. My feeling was that you should simply adjust what you wear for the activity. I mean I would never wear the kind of thing I go to the beach in, in everyday. Neither would most non-muslims. )
Also to say that we can't adjust our dress in order to facilitate standing in society is tricky since it would mean that many Muslims would not be able to find work!! How can you get a job without dressing the part.
Regarding jeans etc - well, yes I have heard many times that we shouldn't wear jeans!! I never stopped but I know some Muslims don't wear them..
Also - there is always talk of dressing so we don't stand out yet it's often at odds with the other descriptive to dress apart from the non-muslims. Again, it depends on where it is that you live.
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Rana, the site you linked to is a hardcore Salafi site, I wouldn't take anything from there seriously.
I used to read in their forum for a while but had myself removed because it was making me really and truly sick. They don't even allow people to voice their own thoughts in regards to a verse, it's against the forum rules. Only fatawa of Saudi sheikhs, i.e. from Islam-QA, are allowed there.
People who adhere to the Salafi cult propagate separation, hatred of unbelievers, an arrogance toward anyone non-Muslim and so on. So statements such as that the clothes of believing women should not resemble the clothes of the unbelievers have to be seen in light of that. We all know that, practically speaking, there is no such thing as a uniform for believers, and we also know that the prophet Muhammad did not invent a particular "Muslim dress code", he wore just what everyone at those times was wearing.
The part about men's and women's clothing not being allowed to resemble each other is too ridiculous to even address.
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Have you read the other articles in the "hijab" section? I particularly like this one
Men are thieves on guard
My dear daughters in Islam,
Assalamu alaikum,
I wanted to write this article because it is important that you know the nature of men to both protect yourself and gain your husband?s love.
Allah knows best the nature of men and women and thus, He (swt) has instilled some rules to follow. Islam is a wonderful religion because it gives its right to every creature on Earth and of course to all men, women and children.
The children are the weakest of the three and Allah ? with His infinite Mercy, has given them rights (and duties) but this is not the scope of this article.
Women are also weaker than men and this is not to mean that women are less important or less intelligent or less capable, it just means there are certain things that women are not as strong as men and one of such things is dealing with emotions or some aspects of our physical abilities. Thus, women are a trust in men?s hands. Yet, Allah (swt) knows the nature of men and that there is a sexual weakness in the hearts of many of them that Allah (swt) has taught us how to protect ourselves from them!
When you go out, you always make sure that your house?s door is closed and so are the windows. This preventive measures are to avoid letting thieves in. Many times you have heard ?Do not invite thieves by leaving your window open? of if you are going to park your car on the street ?Do not encourage thieves by leaving your valuables insight in your car? as this will most certainly attract thieves to your car, and the outcome of that is always not something you wish to deal with as it involves a loss in property and a loss in wealth and a shake to your emotions and nerves.
Such is the case with men! Women have to protect themselves so that men do not steal their bodies or their mind or their sharaf (Honour).
Women wear hijab because, as my father said, hijab is a shield (for French speaking sisters he said ?carapace?). I said ?yes?, then he said ?a shield from men? and I said that this is exactly the reason behind the hijab. My father is not Muslim and is in his late 70s and he told me that on his trip to Egypt. Alhamdulillah, he finally understood the meaning of it and accepted it, may Allah make his heart accept Islam.
Men whose heart are diseased will try to hold onto anything which comes from a woman. They would look at girls. If they wore no hijab, then the boys would try to chat them up. If they wore the scarf, they would try to get a smile from them, if they wore niqab, they would try to steal a look from them and if they covered their eyes, that would stop everything. So protect yourself by wearing the hijab as it is meant by Allah (swt) NOT as it is worn today! It is not called ?fashion Hijab? it?s called ?Making fun of Hijab and taking Allah?s command very lightly!?
Women are asked not to speak with a soft voice to men. Why? It is because the voice is the first door you open to him to invade your territory. And NO! it is not rude to speak with a firm voice and firm words. Again, it is about putting a shield and closing the door to the thief. It is about defending yourself just like learning self-defence is learning to defend yourself.
Women are asked not to beautify themselves when going outside nor to wear perfume because these things are all inviting to men. You see, when it comes to women, all five senses of men are in alert. You can invite them by any of those five senses. So it is up to you to close those five doors and keep your sharaf (honour) and gain respect or to open one or more of them and lose the respect of all and your honour becomes less important than your shoes.
Love yourself, respect yourself, close those doors so that you don?t let thieves enter and you will be loved, respected, not walked over. Open those doors to your husband and you will win his heart
The choice is yours.
Umm Hanifa
http//sisters.islamway.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=804
I love the contradictions. First, she says women are weaker than men and not as able to deal with / control their emotions, but then she keeps babbling about poor men being slaves to their uncontrollable instincts ?
hmmIn general, I feel such crap is not only insulting to women, but also to men. Men are NOT animals who will lose their senses at the sight of a hair or a bit of skin.
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Rana, the site you linked to is a hardcore Salafi site, I wouldn't take anything from there seriously.
I used to read in their forum for a while but had myself removed because it was making me really and truly sick. They don't even allow people to voice their own thoughts in regards to a verse, it's against the forum rules. Only fatawa of Saudi sheikhs, i.e. from Islam-QA, are allowed there.
D
I used to take a great deal of offense when I read their articles, but now they are good for the lulz. Whoever wrote those articles should change profession to comedians instead. I'd laugh. Out of agony.
Anyway, I agree the notion of "Islamic" attire, as well as gender-oriented clothing, is ridiculous. How can one define what exactly a female dressing should look like, and vice versa? Every environment has different attitude towards a certain style of clothing. A skirt is not exclusive to women in all society only, because as we can see, some Scottish men still wear the kilts as a form of cultural expressions. It is important to note, that long dresses (who are often likened to femininity) are worn by some men in Arab countries. Also, what exactly is a non-believers' clothing? By using their logic, muslim women should not wear headscarves because headscarves are worn by some religious Jewish and Christian women.
In response to Sis Rana's original question, I believe women should cover their bosoms and private parts. As for revealing what is apparent, I believe it differs from one society to another because each holds different modesty standard. One can wear sleeveless shirt and jeans in Western countries without attracting sexual attention, while it may not necessarily be the case in Arab or Southeast Asian countries. The key is to dress modestly, and we know well what it means to be modest when we dress. If God truly wants women to cover hands, hair, etc etc, He would have specified it in the Qur'an. However, He left it up to us to decide what to cover (apart from the bosoms and the private parts) because He knows each environment perceives modesty differently. It is relative. That being said, I personally believe that female modesty is ordained to protect women from harm/harassment, and not because female beauty is exclusive to her husband like many traditionalists would love to believe.
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They would look at girls. If they wore no hijab, then the boys would try to chat them up. If they wore the scarf, they would try to get a smile from them, if they wore niqab, they would try to steal a look from them and if they covered their eyes, that would stop everything. So protect yourself by wearing the hijab as it is meant by Allah (swt) NOT as it is worn today!
In general, I feel such crap is not only insulting to women, but also to men. Men are NOT animals who will lose their senses at the sight of a hair or a bit of skin.
That article was something, you are right. Crap probably does sum it up well. It's nice to know that I have the wonderful option of covering up every single little bit of my body and face so that I can avoid harrassment from men. You are so right about the contradiction too.
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Rana, the site you linked to is a hardcore Salafi site, I wouldn't take anything from there seriously.
I used to read in their forum for a while but had myself removed because it was making me really and truly sick. They don't even allow people to voice their own thoughts in regards to a verse, it's against the forum rules. Only fatawa of Saudi sheikhs, i.e. from Islam-QA, are allowed there.
People who adhere to the Salafi cult propagate separation, hatred of unbelievers, an arrogance toward anyone non-Muslim and so on. So statements such as that the clothes of believing women should not resemble the clothes of the unbelievers have to be seen in light of that. We all know that, practically speaking, there is no such thing as a uniform for believers, and we also know that the prophet Muhammad did not invent a particular "Muslim dress code", he wore just what everyone at those times was wearing.
The part about men's and women's clothing not being allowed to resemble each other is too ridiculous to even address.
It was Salafi...recommended by my husband at the time sigh Though in his defence I don't know if he even knew that...then again he must have been reading the Arabic version so surely he would have known hmm
The thing about men and women's clothing always strikes me as funny too. I have heard some say that women shouldn't wear pants...yet from what I can see many muslim men wear dresses P Seriously though, the men and women seem to dress quite similarly in some countries.
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The belief that whatever is given as instructions on how to dress or not in 24.31 have anything to do with not enticing men must such a lovely desease that some people will stick to it even if it kills them. But the clear texto of the Qur'an denies that, because in that 24.31 aya it is very explicitly said not to display whatever must not be displayed except here it names a series of people including the women of the family, which obviously makes it that whatever cannot be displayed must not be displayed to women who are not of the family. Must be so that they are not enticed. Considering this and the disgusting luty people, may be men should cover fully with a conveniently manly burqa so that they do not entice other men.
Could it not be, since Qur'an does not show bias according to sex one way or another, not favours virtues or vices based on sex, that since in most societies women are encouraged to vanity that what the Qur'an is pointing here above all is at vanity which mostly because of breeding and needs is promoted in women? And not a small part women's vanity is particularly promoted concerning their sexual attractiveness, but it is nonetheless vanity and not anything to do with prospects of sexual contacts.
Salaam
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I used to take a great deal of offense when I read their articles, but now they are good for the lulz. Whoever wrote those articles should change profession to comedians instead. I'd laugh. Out of agony.
Anyway, I agree the notion of "Islamic" attire, as well as gender-oriented clothing, is ridiculous. How can one define what exactly a female dressing should look like, and vice versa? Every environment has different attitude towards a certain style of clothing. A skirt is not exclusive to women in all society only, because as we can see, some Scottish men still wear the kilts as a form of cultural expressions. It is important to note, that long dresses (who are often likened to femininity) are worn by some men in Arab countries. Also, what exactly is a non-believers' clothing? By using their logic, muslim women should not wear headscarves because headscarves are worn by some religious Jewish and Christian women.
In response to Sis Rana's original question, I believe women should cover their bosoms and private parts. As for revealing what is apparent, I believe it differs from one society to another because each holds different modesty standard. One can wear sleeveless shirt and jeans in Western countries without attracting sexual attention, while it may not necessarily be the case in Arab or Southeast Asian countries. The key is to dress modestly, and we know well what it means to be modest when we dress. If God truly wants women to cover hands, hair, etc etc, He would have specified it in the Qur'an. However, He left it up to us to decide what to cover (apart from the bosoms and the private parts) because He knows each environment perceives modesty differently. It is relative. That being said, I personally believe that female modesty is ordained to protect women from harm/harassment, and not because female beauty is exclusive to her husband like many traditionalists would love to believe.
Haha you just mentioned the ''long dresses'' of men in Arab countries - I said something about that too
Your points make a lot of sense
- "If God truly wants women to cover hands, hair, etc etc, He would have specified it in the Qur'an."
- "each environment perceives modesty differently"
- "female modesty is ordained to protect women from harm/harassment" - whether it is ordained for that or not it certainly helps...but is by no means all that is involved because even in countries where women cover more there is still harrassment and rape. But there are things that help and often commonsense and being modest in actions is better. For example not walking alone late at night.
This is slightly off-topic but I've never been able to understand why/how so many Muslims accept the differences in modesty between men and women. I have even mentioned the point at the mosque before but (particularly as a single woman) one has to be careful - I don't want to be labelled something I'm not or have them think I will snatch away a husband lol. But for example there is a hadith or something that allows men to wear aftershave while a woman is akin to an adulteress if she does it. My friends at the mosque argued that it is because men will be affected by this while women will not. However I beg to differ.
Back to topic now. It feels like the key points with dress are dress modestly and "each environment perceives modesty differently" therefore we have options. This also means it becomes pretty hard to be too judgemental about how people dress, letting others decide for themself and leaving God to be the final judge.
Thanks for all the comments so far everyone )
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The belief that whatever is given as instructions on how to dress or not in 24.31 have anything to do with not enticing men must such a lovely desease that some people will stick to it even if it kills them. But the clear texto of the Qur'an denies that, because in that 24.31 aya it is very explicitly said not to display whatever must not be displayed except here it names a series of people including the women of the family, which obviously makes it that whatever cannot be displayed must not be displayed to women who are not of the family. Must be so that they are not enticed. Considering this and the disgusting luty people, may be men should cover fully with a conveniently manly burqa so that they do not entice other men.
Could it not be, since Qur'an does not show bias according to sex one way or another, not favours virtues or vices based on sex, that since in most societies women are encouraged to vanity that what the Qur'an is pointing here above all is at vanity which mostly because of breeding and needs is promoted in women? And not a small part women's vanity is particularly promoted concerning their sexual attractiveness, but it is nonetheless vanity and not anything to do with prospects of sexual contacts.
Salaam
The whole 'enticement' thing doesn't really stand up to scrutiny does it. Yet it can be tricky not to fall into that trap. The thing is that if you cover up everything then women will still be enticing to men and vice versa because that is how we were created - we were created to pair up (well basically...not saying it's a rule that you have to follow or anything D). It does seem a much better idea to learn how to relate to each other in a natural and non-sexual way rather than be constantly concerned about covering, not speaking with each other, not looking at each other, not socialising - omg I feel dizzy writing all that.
"Must be so that they are not enticed." Funny point ) I would like to see a few more men wearing this ''manly burqa" laugh
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Rana, this whole obsession with dress has nothing to with "protecting women from harassment" of men. At the end of the day what's behind all this is a desire to control women by assigning the responsibility for other people's thoughts and actions to them, by making them responsible for the moral status of a society.
Once you got someone so caught up in guilt, constantly worried about their dress and behaviour, they are easily being controlled.
Women are being kept perpetually at fault. Look at the lingo of the Salafis (and many strict Sunnis) when it comes to women-related issues. They are constantly trying to send us on a guilt trip. Men misbehaving and harassing women on the street on a daily basis (as is the case here in Egypt, for example)? It must be the fault of women; they are dressing too provocatively, going out too much and so on.
Women being raped? It must be somehow her fault, she must have encouraged the guy in a way. There are many official fatwas and articles by scholars out there claming that rape is all about how women dress, and they even go as far as saying that the number of rapes is much, much higher in Western societies because women cover less and go out by themselves.
Men cheating on their wifes? Widespread fornication? If women focussed on being good, obedient wifes, if they were properly controlled at all times by their fathers, brothers, husbands, and ? most importantly ? if they wore hijab and only left the house in cases of necessity, preferably with a mahram, this wouldn't happen.
Those phenomena, we hear from the sheikhs, are almost exclusively found in Western societies who give their womenfolk too much freedom. Look at the results ? disaster, families falling apart, societies with no values. And if those things happen in Islamic societies (which we all know they do), then surely it is a result of Westernization and of women turning their back on Islamic values and ? most importantly ? proper Islamic dress.
Women, we learn, are at the core of all evil that can befall a society. And we are being told that the prophet said ?I did not leave any fitna more harmful than the fitna of women upon men.?
What else is there to say? Seems being born as a woman is a really tough fate. Not only am I weak and unstable, a slave to my emotions, intellectually deficient and not being able to make proper decisions and survive without the control and guidance of a man ? no, I am also responsible for the behaviour and emotions of the men, be they family members, husbands, or complete strangers in the street. Sounds like a tough burden to me!
If you understand the logic behind all this, it becomes obvious why hijab and women's dress in general, has become such a ridiculously important issue in current discourse. And if anyone thinks I have been exaggerating above by tying all those issues to dress code, I suggest they take some time to read through a few articles, fatwas, books about hijab.
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peace Rana,
The misconceptions site article tries to use 2431 as a yardstick in order to determine what is apparent/hidden from zeenat/beauty, rather than external sources or tradition etc as is commonly done by various sects/commentators, hence one of the reasons you see variation in their views.
That is why there is a difference between the two sites you referenced.
Applying logic and bracketing to 2431 can only give a certain set of results. If one's inner compass is in tune with the message, the right interpretation becomes obvious. In part, that is the beauty of AQ, as it contains many internal distinguishing mechanisms. He guides many by it and can lead many astray by it .
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If one's inner compass is in tune with the message, the right interpretation becomes obvious. In part, that is the beauty of AQ, as it contains many internal distinguishing mechanisms. He guides many by it and can lead many astray by it .
Would be interesting if you made a separate topic covering your findings on inner compass and how AQ contains many internal distinguishing mechanisms. Reason why I say this is because I couldn't find topics going into detail on this subject.
PEACE
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Rana, this whole obsession with dress has nothing to with "protecting women from harassment" of men. At the end of the day what's behind all this is a desire to control women by assigning the responsibility for other people's thoughts and actions to them, by making them responsible for the moral status of a society.
I hope I haven't given you the wrong impression. I am in agreement.
Once you got someone so caught up in guilt, constantly worried about their dress and behaviour, they are easily being controlled.
Omg you are not wrong there. It might start with how you dress - longer, darker, plainer, no makeup, no lipstick, no jewellery - but before long if you aren't careful you can't go out at night, you can't go swimming, you can't be on facebook, you can't meet a friend in a cafe, you can't watch movies, listen to music, dance at home when there is nobody to see or even hum to yourself while you do the dishes - you are missing out on many opportunities in life....and you wonder 'where did my life go?' Yes, people can become easily controlled.
No doubt it goes for men too. I mean I can only imagine how guilt ridden some ''practicing'' men must be - life is pretty hard for them really. It's like the life gets sucked right out of you and is replaced with rules that don't make any sense and many of which are hard to keep to.
Seems being born as a woman is a really tough fate. Not only am I weak and unstable, a slave to my emotions, intellectually deficient and not being able to make proper decisions and survive without the control and guidance of a man ? no, I am also responsible for the behaviour and emotions of the men, be they family members, husbands, or complete strangers in the street. Sounds like a tough burden to me!
You are right about all that. From everything I have read it does seem like we are often to blame for all this stuff. Maybe those men who believe in it need somewhere to place the blame since the only other place to lay it would be with the religion itself - hadith and scholars...and they don't seem to want to do that.
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If one's inner compass is in tune with the message, the right interpretation becomes obvious. In part, that is the beauty of AQ, as it contains many internal distinguishing mechanisms. He guides many by it and can lead many astray by it .
& Perhaps my inner compass is not working. I have to admit that I don't find it easy. However maybe that is because I am still quite affected by hadith in this particular area even now that I no longer believe it. I do have a vague memory of things being much simpler to understand when I first converted. Oh to have my time again....
What I wonder about is when discussing private and apparent how do we know that we are right. If we work from 2431 then, since it doesn't spell things out, we still have to work out for ourselves what to keep private. It makes complete sense to me that I should cover my chest, hips etc and that my face, arms etc are ''apparent''. But isn't that only correct because I'm using the society I know as the yardstick and who is to say that is correct?
Aren't we all just doing that? And maybe that is ok. Maybe that is what we are meant to do. I just feel like I don't know right now. I'm lacking that ''sure'' feeling I guess.
I'm sorry to everyone if this seems circular with me. I'm just trying to work it all out in my head and I sometimes things do go around and around before they settle brickwall
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& Perhaps my inner compass is not working. I have to admit that I don't find it easy. However maybe that is because I am still quite affected by hadith in this particular area even now that I no longer believe it. I do have a vague memory of things being much simpler to understand when I first converted. Oh to have my time again.... )
What I wonder about is when discussing private and apparent how do we know that we are right. If we work from 2431 then, since it doesn't spell things out, we still have to work out for ourselves what to keep private. It makes complete sense to me that I should cover my chest, hips etc and that my face, arms etc are ''apparent''. But isn't that only correct because I'm using the society I know as the yardstick and who is to say that is correct?
Aren't we all just doing that? And maybe that is ok. Maybe that is what we are meant to do. I just feel like I don't know right now. I'm lacking that ''sure'' feeling I guess.
I'm sorry to everyone if this seems circular with me. I'm just trying to work it all out in my head and I sometimes things do go around and around before they settle brickwall
I am not a woman, nor am I graced with a body fit for sultry dress...however, I always viewed quranic modesty by being able to ask the question am I wearing this explicitly to be viewed as sexually provocative? Most women and men will naturally put on clothes that they feel look nice and pleasing, but some people dress with the intention of catching eyes. There is a definite difference between trying to look nice and remain comfortable, and being a hoochie...and that goes for men and women. I think worrying about pleasing Allah in your mode of dress and social interaction is necessary, but I don't think it's necessary to worry about showing your arms or legs.
I forget the thread it was on, but someone made a good comment about dressing appropriately as defined (and I paraphrase) if you're swimming, you should wear socially accepted swimwear, as long as your breasts and private parts are covered. If you are in public, dress in a way that is considered normal but not intentionally provocative. Again, this goes for men and women. Some people are adorned with ...more...than others, so maybe this can be a factor, but I think we can all be safe if we don't try to appear as mean / women of the evening.
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the eastern parts of the world sees women as sex objects to be covered from head to toe. the western parts of the world sees women as sex objects to be uncovered head to toe.
islam taught me not to see myself as a sex object but as a woman to walk and talk with self-respect, dignity and honor.
