Hijab: private, apparent & 7 conditions
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That these women are brainwashed? 'Might very well be' is not good enough. If you want to call me brainwashed, you better have some empirical evidence, or at least something I can objectively break down. If not, I'm gonna tell you to get lost. See why calling someone brainwashed is utterly pointless? It doesn't help the discussion and is patronising (the very thing Leyna was complaining about).
Perhaps I was being a bit humble when I said 'might very well be'... 'Empirical evidence' (whatever the heck is that) clearly is in favor of the brainwashing view.
It is not pointless, if it is the truth to the subject. Yes, It is an opinion and yes it's a subjective opinion, but surmised at through objective thinking. I have family who sport the hijab, and yes they are brainwashed as well.
But you aren't really trying to tell me that the reason many of the women who sport the hijab (not all, mind you) has nothing to do with upbringing? Or the superflous view that somehow sporting the hijab automatically makes you modest? I have known of women who wore hijabs by day; total sluts by night. It is utterly superficial. Just because someone has a tattoo doesn't make them into a gangbanger.
It proves nothing about your 'modesty'.Empirical evidence? You serious? What empirical evidence do you have for calling Leyna a hypocrite? Again, you have that right. But let's not be selective about this so-called 'insults'. Which gets me to my next point. 'Insult' is a subjective criteria. One man's insult is another man's truth. We certainly shouldn't hide from the truth or to ease it off to save people's feelings.
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Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulate.
If she responds "Nay, ye foul woman, I have read into this just recently and lo I have realised this is the way to go" and I respond alright, what persuaded you to realise? Would I be wrong/mocking/patronising/hypocritical to have brought up for discussion another potential factor that may have indoctrinated her into thinking a certain way? Because clearly, she isn't thinking critically?
Lacking in critical thinking does not equal brainwashed. But here's the thing SC, do you believe there's such thing as critical thinking? Because some of the responses here are something of a cop-out/shifting the goal posts.
These external sources of indoctrination rely on any and all weapons in their arsenal to spread their beliefs. Guilt, pressure, superior numbers whatever. Just because someone follows a flawed methodology doesn't mean he wasn't indoctrinated into it. Whether by choice or whether by force. Someone or something did it, taught someone to believe something without critical examination.
And this is what I meant by shifting the goal posts. You seem to be implying here that even if someone came to a false conclusion by choice and critical thinking, they may still be a victim of indoctrination. Can you have it both ways? Either they displayed some critical thinking but ended up on the wrong path or they were indoctrinated. By refusing to make a distinction between the two (and the spectrum between them), you're essentially suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you could be brainwashed.
If simply falling for false concepts with no coercion involved equals brainwashing/indoctrination, then it follows that we're all possibly brainwashed. And if that's the case, what's the point of using the term in any argument? It serves no purpose.
Calculated misinformation IS brainwashing.
No it's not. There's a difference between influencing someone and brainwashing them.
Not everything in debate is a formal geometrical proof. Judgments and estimations are made, reasons for motivations are surmised, etc.
Fine. But simply referring to niqabis as 'brainwashed' is nonsense. Group psychoanalysis based on a forum post is bollocks.
This is a form of reductionism. How people come to certain conclusion is more than simply who brainwashed them when. If it was, there can be no debate about anything, since we're all brainwashed and lack the faculty of critical thinking. It's only because we know there is such thing as objective truths and critical thinking, that the term itself has any value.
If you wore a beard because you were told that God requires it of you, then yes. You were brainwashed. I'm sorry if that offends you, or if it's patronizing, or if you find it insulting. None of those visceral reactions changes the reality that you were, at least with regard to that issue, brainwashed. And again, no 'objective' assertion (whatever that means). Just a judgment based on ample amounts of experience and evidence. It's possible you were born and one day somehow magically came to this conclusion completely on your own. I'll take my chances and assume you are part of the 99.999999% who believed it required because someone (either directly or indirectly) told you it was.
We're essentially talking different languages here. Since no one lives in a vacuum, it is impossible to magically come to any conclusion whatsoever, so this is a moot point. Coming to a conclusion because you have been convinced without being coerced knowingly or uknowingly is different to being brainwashed.
So the fact that I chose to pick up a few books, read them, analysed them critically to the best of my ability at that time, and felt convinced by them amounted to me being brainwashed? This is equivocation.
Here's the thing as David_K said, we are all brainwashed to some degree.
Which again proves that throwing the claim around is pointless to begin with, and is done solely to insult the intelligence of the one it is aimed at.
People must make up their minds. If you believe in objective truth and critical thinking, then stay true to these concepts when discussing the issue of brainwashing. Saying 'oh we're all brainwashed to a degree' is a cop-out. If you accept there is indeed something called critical thinking, then you must also accept that we all have different capacities at different times to think critically. This leads to people reaching incorrect conclusions despite sincere efforts. By lumping these people in with those who have been brainwashed does no justice to the debate. And influenced should not be equated with brainwashed. Many of us are influenced by things which cloud or ability to think critically, but this does not mean we are brainwashed.
I believe several people who have posted so far are guilty of equivocation. Truth, falsehood, critical thinking, brainwashed, influenced, coerced, intent, all have distinct meanings. Confusing them makes debate impossible.
This is a tangent. We all know in what context and tone 'brainwashed' was used originally. It had nothing to do with a wider observation of the human psyche or the supposed inherent nature of our brainwashability, it was used to patronise a particular group of people. The hypocrisy was the fact that this instance of patronising was done by someone who was complaining of being patronised by others.
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Empirical evidence? You serious? What empirical evidence do you have for calling Leyna a hypocrite? Again, you have that right. But let's not be selective about this so-called 'insults'. Which gets me to my next point. 'Insult' is a subjective criteria. One man's insult is another man's truth. We certainly shouldn't hide from the truth or to ease it off to save people's feelings.
I've made it clear already why she's a hypocrite. She was complaining about patronising rhetoric in pro-hijab literature towards non-hijabis, whilst at the same time patronising others. This wasn't just the brainwashing comment, she also mockingly posted a poem by a hijabi wrapped in emoticons. The tone and intent was clear. I don't like hypocrisy.
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If simply falling for false concepts with no coercion involved equals brainwashing/indoctrination, then it follows that we're all possibly brainwashed. And if that's the case, what's the point of using the term in any argument? It serves no purpose.
Sure it does. Shades of gray. (A) All humans being brainwashed to a certain extent, and (B) humans pointing out/criticizing brainwashing where it persists, are not mutually exclusive concepts. Surely you see this?
Not all statements/beliefs are made equally. If I say I believe the world rests on the back of a Giant Tortoise -- a belief I have come to accept because a high priest rather convincingly described it to me so -- and you respond that that's hardly the case, citing satellite photography, etc, are our statements equal in value? Are both our statements just as equally stained by indoctrination? Be reasonable. Stop thinking in absolutes. We're talking about a spectrum here.
No it's not. There's a difference between influencing someone and brainwashing them.
What you keep calling equivocation I can call semantics. It's a fine line after all. It's pointless to get into an almost arbitrary discussion of the finer nuances of what the word 'brainwashing' means. Systematic influencing -- often undergirded by fear-based tactics -- is tantamount to brainwashing, to me.
Seems like you think brainwashing only occurs in the bowels of CIA headquarters or something. A Clockwork Orange this is not. Brainwashing, or systematic influencing if that term is more palatable to you, occurs all the time, on many different levels, ranging from minor to major, from subtle to explicit, etc.
We're essentially talking different languages here. Since no one lives in a vacuum, it is impossible to magically come to any conclusion whatsoever, so this is a moot point. Coming to a conclusion because you have been convinced without being coerced knowingly or uknowingly is different to being brainwashed.
And this is precisely the point. There are no vacuums. But again, not all beliefs are made equally.
You're brainwashed on some things. I'm brainwashed on some things. We all are. What varies is what we are brainwashed on, and to what extent. Where we differ is you take issue with it being pointed out. I don't. What's wrong with pointing it out? Yes, we are all brainwashed. Instead of sweeping it under the rug, why not bring it up to the surface and talk about it? Who cares who gets offended. Is that the only criterion used when engaging in discussions? Amount of toe-stepping? Come on.
Saying 'oh we're all brainwashed to a degree' is a cop-out. If you accept there is indeed something called critical thinking, then you must also accept that we all have different capacities at different times to think critically. This leads to people reaching incorrect conclusions despite sincere efforts.
It's not just about sincerity. You can be very earnest and sincere, and still be a victim of brainwashing. Certainly I am brainwashed about certain things; doesn't make me an evil person with cruel intentions. Just makes me human. It is what it is. But again, I'm willing to admit it. I'm willing to listen. I won't get upset and cry foul if someone were to point out something in me that indicated brainwashing. Self-examination is a continuous process.
In fact, it is this openness to doubting oneself that has, I suspect, lead most of us away from our sectarian pasts and onto message boards such as the one we find ourselves on right now. It was that revelation of "oy, maybe I was brainwashed all along."
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Lacking in critical thinking does not equal brainwashed. But here's the thing SC, do you believe there's such thing as critical thinking? Because some of the responses here are something of a cop-out/shifting the goal posts.
Lacking in critical thinking would mean you would believe something without examining it hence being indoctrinated as in the context of this thread for example. Your definition does not contradict this.And this is what I meant by shifting the goal posts. You seem to be implying here that even if someone came to a false conclusion by choice and critical thinking, they may still be a victim of indoctrination. Can you have it both ways? Either they displayed some critical thinking but ended up on the wrong path or they were indoctrinated. By refusing to make a distinction between the two (and the spectrum between them), you're essentially suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you could be brainwashed.
If simply falling for false concepts with no coercion involved equals brainwashing/indoctrination, then it follows that we're all possibly brainwashed. And if that's the case, what's the point of using the term in any argument? It serves no purpose.
There is no shifting of goal posts, discussions naturally evolve into different areas, micro/macro and so on. Levels, facets and aspects apply. There is no button that we push in our brains called "critical thinking" and suddenly truth manifests forever more for that particular subject or everything else for that matter. There is no 1/0. E.g. You start on a path, you apply reason according to what you know and you end up at square 2. Later in life, with new information you apply reason and end up at square 5. We've all been here, in fact we are here right here right now.Anyone could be brainwashed/indoctrinated, in fact most of us are. That is why it is so important to call it if you think so, bring it up and out in the open so that we all can all apply critical thinking, take in new information, be better, more informed and reasonable human beings in a best case scenario. Exactly why the so called negative is such a learning experience is (if we aren't broken down in tears by it) Someone calls you something you perceive as horrible and you are jerked into asking why, how and maybe even wtf but that usually comes later when you've decided the dude is an idiot. Some things are relatively easier to reason and many many more things get harder with time and information.
This is what we are doing on the thread. Is Mushu coming out guns blazing for no apparent reason? Is Leyna really a hypocrite hmm? Is SC a crazy cat lady? Yes, we have said it because we thought so and now we can ponder upon this and make our minds up hopefully based on reason. That is the point of a discussion, bring things out and it can benefit everyone participating/reading. In a best case scenario as I said. Even train wrecks we can learn from.
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Peace everyone
I haven't seen a human being on earth that is not brainwashed. If anyone knows a human being on earth that is not brainwashed send me a Pm, and I will send you a Superman costume so you can wear it when you go to school ;D Haha. Just kidding.
Isn't everyone brainwashed, more or less? I don't know about you, but I constantly delete old programming, and free myself from false ideas and beliefs. I think the search for truth will last our whole life. And brainwashing isn't limited to just religion. People can be brainwashed when it comes to politics, psychology, sociology, medicine, science, technology, statistics, economy and lots of other topics. Truth be told.
I've been a little stunned by what happened here. It really took off!!
David_K I tend to agree and would take it further to add - show me a person who is not a hypocrite. I seriously think we all are in some way or another simply due to the fact that I don't see anyone who is perfect. We all have an idea of what is right (though naturally our ideas may differ widely) but who is perfect in their execution of them in practice? I know I'm not. (Well, I'm almost perfect angel but not everyone can be like me )
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peace Rana,
What I wonder about is when discussing private and apparent how do we know that we are right. If we work from 2431 then, since it doesn't spell things out, we still have to work out for ourselves what to keep private. It makes complete sense to me that I should cover my chest, hips etc and that my face, arms etc are ''apparent''. But isn't that only correct because I'm using the society I know as the yardstick and who is to say that is correct?
Aren't we all just doing that? And maybe that is ok. Maybe that is what we are meant to do. I just feel like I don't know right now. I'm lacking that ''sure'' feeling I guess.
The "sure" feeling is over-rated
Perhaps it will be helpful if you can show your "working-out" for 2431, i.e. go through the misconceptions site, then apply your own reasoning to 2431 and post your thought process here. This will help us identify any problem areas, if any, thus refining your answer more towards the "sure" side.
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peace Rana,
The "sure" feeling is over-rated
Haha, yes you're probably right.
Perhaps it will be helpful if you can show your "working-out" for 2431, i.e. go through the misconceptions site, then apply your own reasoning to 2431 and post your thought process here. This will help us identify any problem areas, if any, thus refining your answer more towards the "sure" side.
Good idea. I'll give it a go tonight. I had better go now and be a good student. tempt
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The Qurans rules on clothing, would be called conservative today.
I used to believe abit in the modesty of the veil. I never interpreted it to be from The Quran, however nuns have wore it aswell, and so maybe I was culturally indoctrined to think positively of it.
However, it's hiding. The Quran mentions conservative clothing, and then something like "so that your persons may show", or "so that you may be known as people". Or some similar translation.
I don't believe living behind a veil, is becoming known as a person. It's a bit like being untrue. You are simply hiding too much, maybe to the point, that you are missing out on a normal life. And that of learning to trust, that indeed, normal people do not rape you if you do not wear a veil. However, some deviant pseudomuslims, love and even worship women with a veil. It's a kind of learned deviance. What I'd say is, learn to trust your environment, without hijab. Gain respect as a person. Avoid deviant people. -
rana,
'hijab' as defined by men (not God) to mean a woman covering her head has become
...remembering that God exists
...strengthening sisterhood
...statement of a woman's iman
...respect/obedience to her husband
...a measure of whether your prayers are accepted or not
....as well as determination if other members in your family will go to heaven or not
... symbol of liberation.
....symbol of beauty
....symbol of strength
....symbol of pride
....an identity/declaration of a woman's religion....a symbol, a statement.
how did people get all of that from ayat 2431? i don't get it.
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Oh wow. So many responses here O_O.
For years, this sort of propaganda has been directed at us, and for a long time women, including myself, have tried to ignore it and not speak up against the continuous attempts at making us feel guilty if we don't want to cover our heads, and at the increasing dominance of the subject in any discussion regarding Muslim women. Doing so, we have been told, means we are not being sisterly, we are being unsupportive of women who fight for their right to wear hijab and so on.
I can see where you?re coming from. But really, I haven?t really encountered many continuous attempts at making me guilty for not covering my heads. I have not been told that I am not being sisterly nor have I been told that I am unsupportive of the women?s rights. I befriend hijabis, I work with hijabis, and traditional muslim brothers. No one has treated me differently nor make any comments regarding my non-observance of the hijabs. It all depends how you treat the situation. If you have problems with women wearing the headscarf for whatever reason, then they will have problems with you not wearing the headscarf. I don?t want to make generalisation based on my own experience though, because it seems you have gone through it differently in such a way that you feel you have been guilt-tripped by traditional muslims around you.
It is fine if you want to stand up to your beliefs. But why post such a pro-hijab article and poem, and assert comments that have negative remarks here? As Mushu stated previously, it appears that you are merely patronising them here (when you are aware that a good amount of people here don?t believe in observing the headscarf). If you want to make your point and defend Qur?anic views on modesty, why don?t you friendly discuss it with those women by quoting Qur?anic verses?
Texts like the above are BS, full of silly stereotypes, patronizing rhetorics and anti-Western propaganda. And the ideology behind the niqab is sick. For a long time we've been bullied into not speaking up against this nonsense while those texts keep popping up everywhere.
For you, the ideology may be totally sick, but for some others, it is their way of expressing their faith. Besides, you do not know what they have gone through, that they decide to wear it on their own will. Don?t get me wrong, I oppose it when niqabs are forced upon the women when they don?t want to wear it. But in the text, it appears that she has made the decision herself based on what the sheikh told her. No one else put it on her. Anyway, it may surprise you that many women take comfort in wearing the niqabs. Many feel closer to God by doing so because they detach themselves from the outside world. Many feel more secure because it lessens the harassment that they experience. Many feel more loving because they get to ?reserve their beauty? for their husbands, and ultimately their way of expressing their love. I do not agree with them, but I can understand to some extent.
The women from the site those texts are taken from are anything but sisterly, btw. As soon as you dare having your own opinion, i.e. in regards to hijab, the saccharine sweetness makes place for a lot of bitter venom. You will get attacked, being accused of being arrogant, not pious enough, rejecting the truth and so on. There is no room for discussion, exchange of thoughts, having your own opinion is a big no-no. Either you follow the view of the scholars, in this case the Salafi scholars, or you're pretty much an unbeliever.
As I have stated previously, you must be living in a totally different world from me. I have always expressed my views on headscarf whenever my friends or relatives bring the topic up (yes I know plenty who post pro-hijab articles), and we do get into a little debate and discussion. But no one has ever said I was arrogant, or immodest, or rejecting the truth. In the end, we always close it with laa kum diinukum wa liyaa diin.
Leyna isn't using the brainwashing card solely because these women are holding a different position. She's merely stating that anyone who believes that God requires (<--absolutely critical phrase) you to cover your entire body is brainwashed. And can any of us here really disagree? We all believe in the qur'an here. Clearly nowhere in the qur'an does it say that God requires such a thing. So, for someone to believe that is the case, well...some level of brainwashing has to be at play here, does it not? Again, what is so "stupid" about what she said?
Misinformation and mistranslation are not necessarily brainwashing. By the way, we are all aware that no verse in the Qur?an tells the women to cover their heads, that is because we have access to unadulterated version of the Qur?an, and enough technology to dissect the Qur?an word by word. But for some people, unfortunately they only have what is in front them, and they cannot afford to learn Arabic. I say that because in a country where I grew up in, had a horribly mistranslated version of the Qur?an, in which, people who don?t understand Arabic will think that covering the whole body is necessary.
For example is the verse 3359 where we understand to mean that the women should lengthen their outer garment when abroad. The key word is outer garment (jilbaab). In Indonesian version, the word jilbaab is left as an Arabic word, so it reads something like, tell the believing women to lengthen their jilbaab over their body when abroad. The word jilbab actually exists in Indonesian dictionary, and it means headscarf. So upon reading such a verse, they will think that it is necessary to cover their body, with oversized headscarf. People already have pre-conceived views of what jilbab is, and it?s the same case with salaat, hajj etc. That does not necessarily mean that they are brainwashed. Misinformed, yes. I believe it is more due to the evolution of language, and people?s current methodology in translating and interpreting ancient texts (in this case, the Qur?an), rather than someone deliberately trying to brainwash the readers.
Not everyone understands Arabic root word system to understand what khimar, jilbaab etc really mean, and not everyone has the technology or resources to translate the Qur?an word by word. I personally was ready to put on the headscarf, because the Indonesian translation of the Qur?an that I had, clearly said that I had to wear a jilbab.
That goes with some Englist translated Qur?an too. Many translations actually translate khimar as a veil or a headscarf, so for some people, it is ?clear? for them to cover-up. Brainwashed? Maybe, maybe not. I?d say misinformed.
I take issue with this. Brainwashing is very much a crime. It is not just relegated to one individual. It feeds upon itself, it festers, and spreads. On one level, a woman is just choosing to believe however she believes, but on another, she is acting as a conduit through which these falsehoods are spreading themselves.
While brainwashing is a crime, being brainwashed is not. She is more of a victim of brainwashing or rather, mental-slavery where she is being controlled by her ideology. Her intention is not to incite harm, hatred or female inferiority, what drove her in the first place is her desire to get closer to God. Yes, she may be preaching to others about the greatness of wearing the headscarf/body covering, but essentially it is up to every individual to take her words or not. It?s their own free will, the woman is not forcing other women to wear the covering. She merely illustrated her own personal experience in covering up, which have been liberating and enlightening.
What's also stupid is that the basis of her entire argument was that these hijabis in particular patronise non-hijabis (<-- absolutely critical point). So to then call these women 'brainwashed' is what, exactly? Respectful? Productive? Reasonable? No, it's patronising.
While I want to refrain from using the word ?stupid?, I?ll say it is ironic and serves no purpose, to patronise others for patronising us. It?ll end up in an endless cycle, and nothing done.
Which is a battle each and every one of us fights every day of our lives. Misinformation leading to misunderstanding does not equate to brainwashing.
Ditto. Many of us are still in the process of unlearning the falsehood that is being taught to us, we don?t have the absolute knowledge. We are misinformed in certain areas, and our duty to strive for knowledge.
We cannot be 100% certain that we know all truth. We take something as the truth because we think that it is logical and gives us peace by applying it. In these women?s case, they think the covering is logical and they obtain comfort by doing so. So, it is their truth. We may not agree, but hey, each to their own. If you think these women are brainwashed or oppressed or mentally enslaved etc, by all means, do something constructive. Dissect their live experiences, understand their minds and thoughts, and try educate them in the best, friendliest manner, using Qur?anic evidence. Having a go at them here, serves no purpose really.
Forgive me if I think like this, Leyna. But I did get the impression that you were making fun of the hijabi sister by posting those emoticons along with the poem. It is her life experience, her battle in life and something that is obviously dear to her heart, and to invalidate that just because you don?t believe the same way is disheartening. Sure, she may put forward the whole ?omg-the-world-is-full-of-lust?, but that is what she is perceiving and experiencing right now.
In regards to CD?s post about ?God requires such and such?, well, her methodology of understanding the Qur?an concludes that women are required to cover up. For us, it is ?clearly not true?, but in her case, it is ?clearly true?, because we have different methodology. And each of us is content with our approach, with no one being forced into doing so.
I used to have a beard (long sunni beard)and considered it obligatory. Now are you claiming I was brainwashed? I will object even now to anyone suggesting I was brainwashed into keeping a beard. My (flawed) methodology led me to believe it was necessary, and I chose that path because it seemed to be the best. I was wrong, but why does that then make me brainwashed? Now if you say 'Oh no Mushu, obviously you weren't brainwashed, I'm talking about the others', I would ask how you're objectively differentiating between such people?
We?ve all been ?brainwashed? into doing something. Our approach in life, the way we perceive something, the way we behave are shaped by our environment and experience. Your past ?Islamic-learning environment? led you to believe that sporting a beard was the best path, and you chose to implement it on your own free will, and you were content with it. I?ll have no problem with that, as long as you are happy with it and you don?t shove a gun down my brother?s or my friends? throat threatening them to grow a beard or else!
My objection to Leyna's post is the double-standards she's displaying. You can't complain about the patronising rhetoric of pro-hijab literature if at the same time you patronise them by calling them brainwashed.
More or less like that. Some traditionalists may call non-hijabis are sexual, lust-inducing lowly creatures, while some of us may refer the hijabis as submissive, brainwashed, uncritically thinking group of people. Basically the same act, but different wording, based on different way of thinking.
So it is not a decision making process based on research, taking into proper account various interpretations and opinions and then arriving at your own. It is a process which is, from the beginning, limited and biased because it is based on the belief that you HAVE to follow scholars, and particular ones at that. It is a decision based on the belief that there is no such thing as free choice, that we are not allowed to reflect on the Qur'an and arrive at our own understanding, that obeying the scholars means to obey God. It is a decision making process that is based on not being allowed to analyze ALL points of view and ask critical questions. So how on earth can we call this free choice? There is brainwash involved and the Salafis, like any cult, are experts at brainwash techniques.
Not everyone has the luxury of being able to research. Not everyone has the means and resources to do so. Not everyone understands the history of hadith compilations to know its unreliability. Many countries only have one version of the Qur?an, and one interpretation. They are victims, and not the perpetrators. Besides, it is free-will, because they choose to implement one-sided view of Islam. They?re free to reject and not apply in their lives. If you have one food, and just one food, in front of you, and you decide to eat it without thinking there is another available food out there, that is free-will. You can decide not to eat it. Same case with the women. They have a choice of wearing the covering, and not wearing it. No one?s forcing them. They may be ridden by guilt for not covering, but they choose to do it. Same with us not wearing the headscarf. I choose not to wear a headscarf in day-to-day activity (in where I currently live), because I don?t want to give the impression that Islam mandates the headscarf for women. I know I?ll feel guilty by doing so. I?ll only wear it when circumstances ask me for it.
That's why I keep returning to the point that this is not simply about headscarf and choice ? what I am talking about is that the niqab is inextricably tied to the Salafi ideology, which is a dangerous, hateful, misogynist and fascist cult.
I can understand where you?re coming from, but it seems like you are patronising the women who chose to cover, rather than putting forward your views on the ideology behind the niqab. I may interpret your posts incorrectly though.
I used to know a friend who was a hijabi. And would waste no time in pointing out how great it is to be one and how it is one of the biggest things a woman can do to show her devotion to God, how anyone not being one was definitely on the wrong path and so on. If I was to respond to her honestly, a friend to a friend, woman to another woman, calling a spade a spade saying you know, you may have been told this from every angle since growing up so it may not be surprising that you've grown up believing this but I think you are evidently wrong because "insert quranic stance on hijab". Would this be mocking, patronising and hypocritical? Because I brought up what I think is a potential factor for her reasons for believing what she does?
No, that wouldn?t be mocking. In that scenario, you would prompt a friendly discussion (I assume you won?t use your savagingly sarcastic style) when your friend raised an argument. That is what needed to be done, inform the person ?of crime? face-to-face (or post-to-post, depending on the context). Open a discussion to understand a person and the reason why they think and behave the way they do, as well as make them understand you. Saves a lot of hard-feelings behind the screen, and help improve tolerance and unity.
If she responds "Nay, ye foul woman, I have read into this just recently and lo I have realised this is the way to go" and I respond alright, what persuaded you to realise? Would I be wrong/mocking/patronising/hypocritical to have brought up for discussion another potential factor that may have indoctrinated her into thinking a certain way? Because clearly, she isn't thinking critically?
Sure, as long as you bring the discussion to that person, and aim to understand how and why she thinks like that.
I think my initial and primary issue with Leyna?s post was the fact that she posted an article and a poem, and suggested that one article was amusing (because the author experienced such a flowery sensation when wearing the hijab) and inserted emoticons that have mocking tone to it. There was no discussion there, as far as I am concerned. I feel iffy when people project their own experience and make judgment on others based on their own experience (which in a way, is biased).
Anyway, I apologised if I grasped Leyna?s initial posts unfairly.
Isn't everyone brainwashed, more or less? I don't know about you, but I constantly delete old programming, and free myself from false ideas and beliefs. I think the search for truth will last our whole life. And brainwashing isn't limited to just religion. People can be brainwashed when it comes to politics, psychology, sociology, medicine, science, technology, statistics, economy and lots of other topics. Truth be told.
Agreed.
If you wore a beard because you were told that God requires it of you, then yes. You were brainwashed. I'm sorry if that offends you, or if it's patronizing, or if you find it insulting. None of those visceral reactions changes the reality that you were, at least with regard to that issue, brainwashed. And again, no 'objective' assertion (whatever that means). Just a judgment based on ample amounts of experience and evidence. It's possible you were born and one day somehow magically came to this conclusion completely on your own. I'll take my chances and assume you are part of the 99.999999% who believed it required because someone (either directly or indirectly) told you it was.
Suppose I am a woman living in a developing country. I have no access to internet, nor any resources that can show me various methodologies in examining religion. I only hear of one version of Islam (Sunnism). I want to be closer to God. I go to a mosque, with a burning passion to be the best muslim I can ever be. I have never worn the headscarf before, but whatever. I come to a mosque, and the sheikh tells me a good muslim woman has to cover up. I say, um really? The sheikh says, yes it?s what God mandates, it?s in the Qur?an. Then I take the Qur?an home, and indulge myself in it. Hey, there are verses that say women have to wear the veil and cover my beauty! Then I see the verse about a man asking a woman from behind a screen, and I read interpretation that suggests wearing the niqab. To me personally, it MAKES SENSE! Okay, I have decided from now one that I cover myself, and I feel peaceful by doing so.
Would you say I am brainwashed? Would you say that I commit a crime for not thoroughly researching when I have no means to do it in the first place? Or when I do not have a shred of knowledge on the Arabic language or methodology on understanding the Qur?an, and when the only resources available to me lead me to practice what I practice? Would you say I commit a crime for practicing what I accept to be the truth, and I feel peaceful for it?
You may think it is far-fetched. However, it is unfortunate that such scenario is prevalent in many societies. At least where I come from anyway.
I do have issue with people trying to brainwash others (meaning making others think and behave in a certain way to accomplish their desires), don?t get me wrong. But people who are brainwashed, are mere victims of their circumstances and environment.
We cannot be completely rid of brainwashing. At best, we can hope to minimize its effects, counter it with tools like critical thinking and distribution of data that more accurately fit the facts. We can, like Leyna did, point it out where we find it, in an attempt to root it out. If a few people, gasp, feel offended or patronized along the way, then so be it. It's the world we live in.
That?s cool, I can see her earlier articles discuss some key aspects of why women believe covering their bodies, and how growing-fear is one of them. I don?t find any problem with discussing such a thing, and I completely welcome open and critical discussions. But making light of others? personal experiences (which hold a great significance to them) that are different from ours, I don?t agree. It serves no real purpose, but to have a go at these people (who happen to be the victims of brainwashing/misinformation etc).
Anyone could be brainwashed/indoctrinated, in fact most of us are. That is why it is so important to call it if you think so, bring it up and out in the open so that we all can all apply critical thinking, take in new information, be better, more informed and reasonable human beings in a best case scenario. Exactly why the so called negative is such a learning experience is (if we aren't broken down in tears by it) Someone calls you something you perceive as horrible and you are jerked into asking why, how and maybe even wtf but that usually comes later when you've decided the dude is an idiot. Some things are relatively easier to reason and many many more things get harder with time and information.
Yes, bring it out in the open! To the affected person, and advise that they apply critical thinking. Narrating one?s experience and calling it amusing in front of audience who is most likely to have the same belief as you do anyway, is not productive. Most of us already know we don?t taste the lollypop and fairyfloss sweetness when wearing the headscarf, so what is in the store for pasting it here, and posting remarks that appear to be mocking? It may have more impact if the authors were informed of our views (if we really think that what they are doing is dangerous and harmless), but most of us don?t want to get into that anyway.
Okay, my fingers are getting tired now @.@. I should stop.
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This wasn't just the brainwashing comment, she also mockingly posted a poem by a hijabi wrapped in emoticons. The tone and intent was clear. I don't like hypocrisy.
Just because someone puts emotions into something, it means we are not allowed to mock or criticize it?
There are many poems like this around. Their sole purpose is to make the authors feel better and morally superior. The gist is always the same I'm a poor, discriminated Muslim woman living among unbelievers who don't understand me and look at me with suspicion. They are all too stupid to understand what the veil means to me, but at the end of the day I am the morally superior one, if only they knew.
So according to you, the women who write those poems have the right to express their emotions, but I don't? Sorry, but I disagree.
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To A Non-Muslim Woman
When you look at me
All that you can see
is the scarf that covers my hair
My words you can't hear
because you're too full of fear,
mouth gaping, all you do is stareYou think it's not my choice
in your own "liberation" rejoice.
You think I'm uneducated,
trapped, oppressed and subjugated,
You're so thankful that you're free.But non-Muslim woman you've got it wrong
You're the weak and I'm the strong.
For I've rejected the trap of man.
Fancy clothes - low neck, short skirt
those are devices for pain and hurt.
I'm not falling for that little plan.I'm a person with ideas and thought.
I'm not for sale, I can't be bought.
I'm me - not a fancy toy,
I won't decorate anyone's arm,
nor be promoted for my charm.
There is more to be than playing coy.Living life as a balancing game - mother,
daughter, wife, nurse, cleaner, cook, lover
and still bring home a wage.
Who thought up this modern "freedom"?
Where man can love'em and man can leave'em.
This is not free, but life in a cage.
Always jumping to a male agenda
competing on his terms.
No job share, no creche facilities,
no feeding and nappy changing amenities
No time off for menstrual pain,
"hormones" they laugh "what a shame"
No equal pay equal skill
your job they can always fill.
No promotion unless you're sterilised.
No promotion unless you're sexually terrorised.
And this is liberation?Non-Muslim woman you can have your life.
Mine - it has less strife.
I cover and I get respected,
surely that's to be expected,
for I won't demean the feminine,
I won't live to male criterion,
I dance to my own tune
and I hope you see this very soon.
For your own sake - wake up and use your sight.
Are you so sure that you are right?From a Muslim Woman
http//www.jannah.org/articles/poems.html#5
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Peace Leyna
That was a beautiful poem - even dough I don't agree with everything she says.
Thanks for sharing.
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Peace BornAgain
Great post. It was objective, tolerant and rational.
I agree with what you said in your post.
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Peace Everyone
I never call individuals brain washed. I consider that a personal attack. Instead of calling people brainwashed we should educate them. We should tell them the truth. Let me illustrate why we shouldn't call indviduals brainwashed. If a person falls on the ground and get wounded you shouldn't tell them you are clumsy. Because that won't help them at all. It would only make things worse. You should instead offer the person your hand, help lift them up. And give that person a bandaid.
Conclusion
Educate those who are wearing hijab. Educate them in a peaceful way. Show them the best arguments against hijab. Use the Quran and use history to back up your arguments. Don't critisize them. Just educate them.
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Just because someone puts emotions into something, it means we are not allowed to mock or criticize it?
There are many poems like this around. Their sole purpose is to make the authors feel better and morally superior. The gist is always the same I'm a poor, discriminated Muslim woman living among unbelievers who don't understand me and look at me with suspicion. They are all too stupid to understand what the veil means to me, but at the end of the day I am the morally superior one, if only they knew.
)
So according to you, the women who write those poems have the right to express their emotions, but I don't? Sorry, but I disagree.In discussions like these, many times nuances/facets/aspects get overlooked or ignored. It causes a slippery descent into repetition and overall harping on about stuff sticking to preferred grounds. Just a regular day on the forum I guess.
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That was a beautiful poem - even dough I don't agree with everything she says.
I wonder if you would find a poem written in the same style from the other perspective beautiful as well.
POEM FOR A MUSLIM WOMAN
When you look at me,
and my clothes you so despise,
i know that you are jealous
i can see it in your eyes.
i wonder if your smiling as i pass you in the street,
its hard to know thanks to that shroud you wear from head to feet.i'd ask you if it was your choice
to dress the way you do,
or if you felt oppressed at all
i really wish i knew
religions not my strong point, too much freedom when at school,
and i dont want to offend you, or make myself look like a fool.Muslim women you should be strong,
tell your husband he is wrong.
reject that trap he has you in,
and show the world your gorgeous skin.
no more by that device be beat
uncomfortable in summer heat.im my own person, cant be bought,
but you can right? or so i thought,
with dowries and fancy things
and all that marriage usually brings,
to muslim women lacking charm
cant decorate a white mans arm.i juggle on a daily basis
many jobs while your in stasis
your husband pays his monthly fee
to work out at the gym with me
a fun and pretty, slim instructor,
i know you wonder "has he fucked her"?
knowing full well hes bound to roam
as you cook and clean all day at home.
a full time job, no cash reward,
or stimulation.... arnt you bored?
no time off for good behaviour,
no chance of eventual saviour,
i want to help you, really honey
perhaps if you could earn some money,
escape your terrorised damnation
and seize at last your liberation.oh muslim woman, change your life,
you could be more than just a wife.
stand up like me and be respected,
your master will not feel rejected,
your job at home's easily filled
by someone equally weak willed.
so wake up, de-vail, see the light,
for YOU are wrong and I am right.http//www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001168#000000
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the eastern parts of the world sees women as sex objects to be covered from head to toe. the western parts of the world sees women as sex objects to be uncovered head to toe.
islam taught me not to see myself as a sex object but as a woman to walk and talk with self-respect, dignity and honor.
Oh so right justamuslim.... I like the way you describe this here !!! I think indeed all has to do with modesty, the intention by witch you chose to wear something also... is it to catch mens eyes, is it to make other women jalous on your beauty?... No, that is not modest. So indeed use your common sence and wear those cloths that let you walk and talk with sefl-respect, dignity and honor.
