Hijab: private, apparent & 7 conditions
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@ captainneckbeard - Oh I don't know...neckbeard's sound very sultry lol. Seriously though, I really liked the way of thinking upon this that you have suggested "am I wearing this explicitly to be viewed as sexually provocative?" You are right - it is natural to dress nicely and while I think sometimes there might be a grey area I do think that is a good way to question your motives.
"I think we can all be safe if we don't try to appear as mean / women of the evening." rotfl Love it!
@ justamuslim - Isn't it funny to think of things like that. I'm glad you've got such a good message from Islam though. )
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I hope I haven't given you the wrong impression. I am in agreement.
No, you didn't! peace
Sometimes I find it entertaining to read texts on sites such as the one we were talking about. I particularly like the hijab-advertising texts written by converts, they often follow a similar pattern ? Western woman thinks Islam suppresses women and that hijab is a nuisance. Then she converts and ? boom ? the hijab and its magical properties liberate her and make her an entirely different person. It strengthens her faith, gives her a feeling of belonging, protects her and so and so forth. And of course after discovering the truth she feels utterly sorry for her Western sisters who are leading a superficial life, exposing their flesh, being playthings for lecherous man etc.
I found this piece of literature quite amusing. Note the language in which the hijab and its properties are being described!
?
I have worn the hijab since embracing Islam in Paris. The exact form of the hijab varies according to the country one is in, or the degree of the individual' s religious awareness. In France I wore a simple scarf which matched my dress and perched lightly on my head so that it was almost fashionable! Now, in Saudi Arabia, I wear an all-covering black cape; not even my eyes are visible. Thus, I have experienced the hijab from its simplest to its most complete form.
What does the hijab mean to me? Although there have been many books and articles about the hijab, they always tend to be written from an outsider's point of view; I hope this will allow me to explain what I can observe from the inside, so to speak. When I decided to declare my Islam, I did not think whether I could pray five times a day or wear the hijab. Maybe I was scared that if I had given it serious thought I would have reached a negative conclusion, and that would affect my decision to become a Muslim. Until I visited the main mosque in Paris I had nothing to do with Islam; neither the prayers nor the hijab were familiar to me. In fact, both were unimaginable but my desire to be a Muslim was too strong (Alhamdulilah) for me to be overly concerned with what awaited me on the "other side" of my conversion.
The benefits of observing hijab became clear to me following a lecture at the mosque when I kept my scarf on even after leaving the building. The lecture had filled me with such a previously unknown spiritual satisfaction that I simply did not want to remove it. Because of the cold weather, I did not attract too much attention but I did feel different, somehow purified and protected; I felt as if I was in Allah' s company. As a foreigner in Paris, I sometimes felt uneasy about being stared at by men. In my hijab I went unnoticed, protected from impolite stares.
My hijab made me happy; it was both a sign of my obedience to Allah and a manifestation of my faith. I did not need to utter beliefs, the hijab stated them clearly for all to see, especially fellow Muslims, and thus it helped to strengthen the bonds of sisterhood in Islam. Wearing the hijab soon became spontaneous, albeit purely voluntary. No human being could force me to wear it; if they had, perhaps I would have rebelled and rejected it. However, the first Islamic book I read used very moderate language in this respect, saying that "Allah recommends it (the hijab) strongly" and since Islam (as the word itself indicates) means we are to obey Allah' s will I accomplished my Islamic duties willingly and without difficulty, Alhamdulilah.
The hijab reminds people who see it that God exists, and it serves as a constant reminder to me that I should conduct myself as a Muslim. Just as police officers are more professionally aware while in uniform, so I had a stronger sense of being a Muslim wearing my hijab.
Two weeks after my return to Islam, I went back to Japan for a family wedding and took the decision not to return to my studies in France; French literature had lost its appeal and the desire to study Arabic had replaced it. As a new Muslim with very little knowledge of Islam it was a big test for me to live in a small town in Japan completely isolated from Muslims. However, this isolation intensified my Islamic consciousness, and I knew that I was not alone as Allah was with me. I had to abandon many of my clothes and, with some help from a friend who knew dress- making, I made some pantaloons, similar to Pakistani dress. I was not bothered by the strange looks the people gave me!
After six months in Japan, my desire to study Arabic grew so much that I decided to go to Cairo, where I knew someone. None of my host family there spoke English (or Japanese!) and the lady who took my hand to lead me into the house was covered from head to toe in black. Even her face was covered. Although this is now familiar to me here in Riyadh, I remember being surprised at the time, recalling an incident in France when I had seen such dress and thought, "there is a woman enslaved by Arabic tradition, unaware of real Islam," (which, I believed, taught that covering the face was not a necessity, but an ethnic tradition).
I wanted to tell the lady in Cairo that she was exaggerating her dress, that it was unnatural and abnormal. Instead, I was told that my self-made dress was not suitable to go out in, something I disagreed with since I understood that it satisfied the requirements for a Muslimah. But, when in Rome . . . So I bought some cloth and made a long dress, called khimar, which covered the loins and the arms completely. I was even ready to cover my face, something most of the sisters with whom I became acquainted did. They were, though, a small minority in Cairo.
Generally-speaking, young Egyptians, more or less fully westernized, kept their distance from women wearing khimar and called them "the sisters." Men treated us with respect and special politeness. Women wearing a khimar shared a sisterhood which lived up to the Prophet' s saying (Allah' s blessings and peace on him) that "a Muslim gives his salaam to the person he crosses in the street, whether he knows him or not." The sisters were, it is probably true to say, more conscious of their faith than those who wear scarves for the sake of custom, rather than for the sake of Allah.
Before becoming a Muslimah, my preference was for active pants-style clothes, not the more feminine skirt, but the long dress I wore in Cairo pleased me; I felt elegant and more relaxed. In the western sense, black is a favorite color for evening wear as it accentuates the beauty of the wearer. My new sisters were truly beautiful in their black khimar, and a light akin to saintliness shone from their faces. Indeed, they are not unlike Roman Catholic nuns, something I noticed particularly when I had occasion to visit Paris soon after arriving in Saudi Arabia. I was in the same Metro carriage as a nun and I smiled at our similarity of dress. Hers was the symbol of her devotion to God, as is that of a Muslimah. I often wonder why people say nothing about the veil of the Catholic nun but criticize vehemently the veil of a Muslimah, regarding it as a symbol of` "terrorism" and "oppression." I did not mind abandoning colorful clothes in favor of black; in fact, I had always had a sense of longing for the religious lifestyle of a nun even before becoming a Muslimah!
Nevertheless, I balked at the suggestion that I should wear my khimar back in Japan. I was angry at the sister' s lack of understanding Islam commands us to cover our bodies, and as long as this is done, one may dress as desired. Every society has its own fashions and such long black clothes in Japan could make people think I am crazy, and reject Islam even before I could explain its teachings. Our argument revolved around this aspect.
After another six months in Cairo, however, I was so accustomed to my long dress that I started to think that I would wear it on my return to Japan. My concession was that I had some dresses made in light colors, and some white khimars, in the belief that they would be less shocking in Japan than the black variety.
I was right. The Japanese reacted rather well to my white khimars, and they seemed to be able to guess that I was of a religious persuasion. I heard one girl telling her friend that I was a Buddhist nun; how similar a Muslimah, a Buddhist nun and a Christian nun are! Once, on a train, the elderly man next to me asked why I was dressed in such unusual fashion. When I explained that I was a Muslimah and that Islam commands women to cover their bodies so as not to trouble men who are weak and unable to resist temptation, he seemed impressed. When he left the train he thanked me and said that he would have liked more time to speak to me about Islam.
In this instance, the hijab prompted a discussion on Islam with a Japanese man who would not normally be accustomed to talking about religion. As in Cairo, the hijab acted as a means of identification between Muslims; I found myself on the way to a study circle wondering if I was on the right route when I saw a group of sisters wearing the hijab. We greeted each other with salaam and went on to the meeting together.
My father was worried when I went out in long sleeves and a head-cover even in the hottest weather, but I found that my hijab protected me from the sun. Indeed, it was I who also felt uneasy looking at my younger sister' s legs while she wore short pants. I have often been embarrassed, even before declaring Islam, by the sight of a women' s bosoms and hips clearly outlined by tight, thin clothing. I felt as if I was seeing something secret. If such a sight embarrasses me, one of the same sex, it is not difficult to imagine the effect on men. In Islam, men and women are commanded to dress modestly and not be naked in public, even in all male or all female situations.
It is clear that what is acceptable to be bared in society varies according to societal or individual understanding. For example, in Japan fifty years ago it was considered vulgar to swim in a swimming suit but now bikinis are the norm. If, however, a woman swam topless she would be regarded as shameless. To go topless on the south coast of France, however, is the norm. On some beaches in America, nudists lie as naked as the day they were born. If a nudist were to ask a "liberated" female who rejects the hijab why she still covers her bosoms and hips which are as natural as her hands and face could she give an honest answer? The definition of what part of a woman' s body should remain private to her is altered to suit the whims and fancies of either men or their surrogates, the so-called feminists. But in Islam we have no such problems Allah has defined what may and may not be bared, and we follow.
The way people walk around naked (or almost so), excreting or making love in public, robs them of the sense of shame and reduces them to the status of animals. In Japan, women only wear makeup when they go out and have little regard for how they look at home. In Islam a wife will try to look beautiful for her husband and her husband will try to look good for his wife. There is modesty even between husband and wife and this embellishes the relationship.
Muslims are accused of being over-sensitive about the human body but the degree of sexual harassment which occurs these days justifies modest dress. Just as a short skirt can send the signal that the wearer is available to men, so the hijab signals, loud and clear "I am forbidden for you."
The Prophet, Allah's blessings and peace on him, once asked his daughter Fatima, May Allah be pleased with her, "What is the best for a woman?" And she replied "Not to see men and not to be seen by them." The Prophet, Allah' s blessings and peace on him, was pleased and said "You are truly my daughter." This shows that it is preferable for a woman to stay at home and avoid contact with male strangers as much as possible. Observing the hijab, when one goes outside, has the same effect.
Having married, I left Japan for Saudi Arabia, where it is customary for the women to cover their face outdoors. I was impatient to try the niqab (face cover), and curious to know how it felt. Of course, non-Muslim women generally wear a black cloak, rather non-chalantly thrown over their shoulders but do not cover their faces; Non-Saudi Muslim women also often keep their faces uncovered.
Once accustomed to, the niqab is certainly not inconvenient. In fact I felt like the owner of a secret masterpiece, a treasure which you can neither know about, nor see. Whereas non-Muslims may think they are life imitating caricatures when they see Muslim couples walk in the streets, the oppressed, and the oppressor, the possessed, and the possessor, the reality is that the women feel like queens being led by servants.
My first niqab left my eyes uncovered. But in winter I wore a fine eye-covering as well. All the feelings of un-ease when a man's eyes met mine disappeared. As with sun glasses, the visual intrusion of strangers was prevented.
It is an error of judgment to think that a Muslim woman covers herself because she is a private possession of her husband. In fact, she preserves her dignity and refuses to be possessed by strangers. It is non-Muslim (and "liberated" Muslim) women who are to be pitied for displaying their private self for all to see.
Observing the hijab from outside, it is impossible to see what it hides. The gap, between being outside and looking in, and being inside and looking out, explains in part the void in the understanding of Islam. An outsider may see Islam as restricting Muslims. In side, however, there is peace, freedom, and joy, which those who experience it have never known before. Practicing Muslims, whether those born in Muslim families or those returned to Islam, choose Islam rather than the illusory freedom of secular life. If it oppresses women, why are so many well-educated young women in Europe, America, Japan, Australia, indeed all over the world, abandoning "liberty" and "independence" and embracing Islam?
A person blinded by prejudice may not see it, but a woman in hijab is as brightly beautiful as an angle, full of self-confidence, serenity, and dignity. No signs of oppression scar her face. "For indeed it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts within the bosoms, that grow blind," says the Qur'an (Al-Hajj 2246). How else can we explain the great gap in understanding between us and such people?
http//sisters.islamway.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=852
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TO ALL OF MY SISTERS WEARING THE HIJAB
As i get ready to go into the outside world
I look in the mirror
What do i see?
My beauty
Then i slip on the hijab
why?
I cover my outer beauty
So you take a look at my inner beauty
I step into the cruel and unjust society
of this "free" country
i look at avoiding eyes and stares
i hear whispering from every side
i think to myself "i am not here to please everyone"
i am here to please Allah
then i hold my head with the hijab high
Allah has chosen this jihad for me to overcome
yes this is my jihadhttp//foolstown.com/sm/rev.gif http//foolstown.com/sm/rev.gif http//foolstown.com/sm/rev.gif
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I can understand and respect the explanation given by a nice and unasumming lady who explained why she wore the hijab just as a priest wears something distinctive so that people know he is a priest and therefore he is there for people to ask him for orientation or help or whatever, so I want that anybody who wants to know something about islam or help in anyway, knows that I am there for them.
This is a way to be known for good reasons, obviously. I have nothing to object to that and the lady was certainly a most helpful and sincere person. She didn't say a word about not attracting men or any other idiocy nor showed any sense of being more that any other non hijabed sisters.
Anybody who does that, man or woman and stands up to it, deserves my respect, as well as anybody who does it because that is her own personal feeling of being in peace with her or himself.
However I think the concept of it being a special obligation to God placed on women must be outright rejected as invention and fraud. God did reveal a complete Qur'an and has not mentioned any parts of the body except bossom and private parts, to add anything to that is invention. If God has not said it, it is because He did not want to, because abviously He did have a choice. And if He did not choose to impose anything, He had His reasons and He gave us freedom and wide margins to fit our garments to wathever conditions we may live in or we may feel comfortable with. Why should we give up the God given space of freedom? So that psychologically deprived males can comfortably continue believing in their magical little edge over women? According to the Qur'an they must give up any edge and accept and live with women in anyway they want to dressjust as the other way round.
Read 24.11-27. Believers must not watch out to badmouth women and invent things about them, no matter whether they find them wanting or not. I wonder the reason why so much is made of 24.31 to extract what is not there and all the previous ayas about not thinking ill or badmouth women regardless whether they dress to their satisfaction or not are simply ignored.
The hiyab imposition and magic is a modern construction. In traditional Muslim societies, socially both men and women used to cover their heads. It is normal that if the usual is to have the head covered, that everybody covers it. Now, today it has become a thing that males dress however they like, and that women... no, they have this extra little obligation, because... because? Because some males need that little edge not to loose the delusion that they are the kings of creation, that no matter what, they have somebody on whom they can pound if they feel belittled... that is, they can continue to be children and fantasize that they are men who are a degree above women... Otherwise how can this hiyab fixation be comprehended?
That tempting thing is bullshit. It is not precisely the hair of a woman what drives them wild. May be the hair of the loved woman, but for sure not the hair of any woman on the street or at work. That is ridiculous, even if they claim, true to doctrine, that oh yes, the hair does wonders of temptation. In fact what tempts the most is their own imagination. At any rate, as it has already been said, the Qur'an does not take that eventual temptation into consideration. If their imagination runs wild, they should take care of their imagination and leave people alone. But anyway, as I say, that is a lie, that hair tempts them. No way.
These things have been said over and over, but still we are besieged with hijabism of the deameaning female kind. That is a fraude on the Qur'an.
We all know what is modest and what is not, what is provonking and what is not when we do it ourselves, so the Qur'an is quite right when not setting more explicit limits on things. If it did and we did want to provoke, we would manage it, even with restrictions. And with little restrictions on actual dress people can be quite decent. And not everything that might be shocking is necessary provoking. May be shocking but not tempting at all. Also, what is there to provoke in a muscled swiming champion even with clinging gear that delineates the whole body? So, do we get upset just out of a sense of duty? So must muslims always stand out because of their filthy imagination? Is common sense completely out of place in a muslim? Are ice skating ladies, and gentlemen, provoking bitches? Ar we just a little obssessed or maniacs?
Another thing might be the completely disproportionate worship that is given to top sports today, but that should be matter for another thread.
Salaam
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Sometimes I find it entertaining to read texts on sites such as the one we were talking about. I particularly like the hijab-advertising texts written by converts, they often follow a similar pattern ? Western woman thinks Islam suppresses women and that hijab is a nuisance. Then she converts and ? boom ? the hijab and its magical properties liberate her and make her an entirely different person. It strengthens her faith, gives her a feeling of belonging, protects her and so and so forth. And of course after discovering the truth she feels utterly sorry for her Western sisters who are leading a superficial life, exposing their flesh, being playthings for lecherous man etc.
Why do you find it amusing that some women find hijab liberating? Seems you want women to be liberated and independent, but only in the way you approve of...
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To be fair Leyna, I think I can understand any muslim woman's feelings when wearing the headscarf. I personally don't believe that wearing a headscarf is compulsory, but have no problems with it. It is just a piece of clothing. I wear the hijab from time to time, and can feel what the woman in that article is describing. There is that sense of security and identity, which can be comforting in its own way. People do approach to ask a few questions about Islam. And yes, I believe some women who wear the headscarves and walk modestly are very beautiful.
Everyone has their own experience, which cannot be invalidated just because we don't share the same experience. I don't find her story to be amusing at all, in fact, it's comforting to know that she voluntarily wears the headscarf and can find peace from it. Just like we don't want to be commented on our "muslim-ness" because we decide not to wear the headscarf, we should not have a go at other women for choosing to wear it. It goes both ways.
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Please read my entire quote and the context, mushu.
I didn't say I find it amusing if a woman finds wearing hijab liberating; I find it amusing and ridiculous to claim that hijab possesses all those magical properties such as described above. You cover yourself and ? boom ? you are safe, protected, respected, dignified, purified, part of a community, like a treasure and so on and so forth. That is nonsense. Dignity, modesty, self-confidence etc. pp. comes from the inside, not from what you wear.
Liberation comes in many forms, and if a woman feels that wearing hijab liberates her in a way, I fully respect that. But I do reject the patronizing suggestion that women who don't wear hijab are all just stupid fashion victims, continuously obsessed with looking sexy to please men, spending lots of time and money on beautifying themselves, valuing their appearance over faith etc. And that's what those kinds of texts are all suggesting.
BornAgain ? I don't feel she wears it voluntarily. It is clear from her story that she has been brainwashed into believing that the strictest form of hijab (i.e. covering everything including eyes) is what's being required. She herself describes how she used to think it's about modesty and being appropriately dressed according to time and situation, but all those righteous sisters she met in Cairo led her to the straight path and showed her that this thinking is not in accordance with God's will.
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Well, yeah? I have worn headscarf previously, hence I can relate to what she claims. Of course it may not always be the case. But to some extent, in my personal experience, headscarf does give you that sense of protection and modesty, and it is much easier to "bond" with other Sisters. Maybe it's just the environment where I live in anyway, I don't know about you and where you live. Anyway, what you wear does have something to do with what you wear. I can't feel modest or confident walking in the street with just tank top and hot pants. Just saying.
Maybe she is "brainwashed", but she is not FORCED to wear the headscarf. She chooses to do it. She is happy and peaceful by doing so. That is voluntary action.
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Please read my entire quote and the context, mushu.
I did.
I didn't say I find it amusing if a woman finds wearing hijab liberating; I find it amusing and ridiculous to claim that hijab possesses all those magical properties such as described above. You cover yourself and ? boom ? you are safe, protected, respected, dignified, purified, part of a community, like a treasure and so on and so forth. That is nonsense. Dignity, modesty, self-confidence etc. pp. comes from the inside, not from what you wear.
Pretty much confirms what I thought you were saying. Your rather odd brand of feminism sees you ridiculing other women for finding modesty, comfort and strength in what they wear, simply because it's not what you wear. Somewhat ironic, no?
Liberation comes in many forms, and if a woman feels that wearing hijab liberates her in a way, I fully respect that. But I do reject the patronizing suggestion that women who don't wear hijab are all just stupid fashion victims, continuously obsessed with looking sexy to please men, spending lots of time and money on beautifying themselves, valuing their appearance over faith etc. And that's what those kinds of texts are all suggesting.
And you are doing precisely the same, hence your suggestion that women who wear hijab are brainwashed.
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I did.
Pretty much confirms what I thought you were saying. Your rather odd brand of feminism sees you ridiculing other women for finding modesty, comfort and strength in what they wear, simply because it's not what you wear. Somewhat ironic, no?
And you are doing precisely the same, hence your suggestion that women who wear hijab are brainwashed.
But, Mushu, some ARE brainwashed. It is not something Leyna is inventing. Just as it is no invention that many women who embelish themselves with make up and more or less off showing clothes and apparell and who take to surgery to make themselves more beautiful are also brainwashed into believing that they do not have enough volume or have too much or whatever.
Brainwashing by the environment is present everywhere and it is far more enslaving than outright forcing things, because it is onself making violence on oneself. Actually it is the cleverest way to control a population. And when that happens, the problem is not too much clothing or too little, but rather the fact of the brainwashing.
May be one may be forced to wear this or that or to remove hair or whatever in order to comply with a social requirement that might impose to heavy a penalty on somebody who did not, but if one is conscious of that real reason why one does it, it is less of a burden for the person than if he or she thinks that she or he is sinning or lacking or is in any way deffective, because he or she does not commune with that belief, that a woman should be shaved here or there or wear this or that, or whatever...
There are women who are brainwashed into hijab, though of course many would not admit it, because part of brainwashing obviously is that you assert that you are not brainwashed, and there are also women brainwashed into the overriding need of being attractive and going into surgery . That not all attractive persons are brainwashed, for sure, and that not all hijab wearers are brainwashed, also for sure, but that there is massive brainwashing in both ways by these or others people or interests, that is also for sure, so we do not do anything wrong warning against these kind of manipulations of people, women particularly in this case. We all stand to benefit from the warning of of the tricks being used to brainwash us. No conscious hijab wearer or conscious naturally attractive woman derives any comfort from others being brainwashed into something they do out of sincerity, it looses its virtues.
Then of course, many things become habits. One should know that it is a habit and one should know that it may become a habit and know whether one wants to have that habit or not. Getting rid of something one does not want is usually harder than getting into it, particularly if it is something that your environment expects from you.
Salaam
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But, Mushu, some ARE brainwashed. It is not something Leyna is inventing.
If brainwashing is everywhere, then calling on brainwashing as an argument is both fallacious and counter-productive. The 'brainwashed' one can look at you and say that you've been brainwashed by quranists. And their assertion will have exactly the same weight as yours zero. Basically, it's a stupid argument. I respect many of your thoughts huruf, but we will have to disagree on this point.
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Pretty much confirms what I thought you were saying. Your rather odd brand of feminism sees you ridiculing other women for finding modesty, comfort and strength in what they wear, simply because it's not what you wear. Somewhat ironic, no?
And you are doing precisely the same, hence your suggestion that women who wear hijab are brainwashed.
sigh
I have not said or written that every woman who finds comfort in wearing hijab is brainwashed, nor am I ridiculing hijab-wearing women in general. Would be hard to do, btw., since I'm surrounded by them 24/7.
I have clearly stated that I believe the woman in that particular text has been brainwashed, and I stand by what I said. A person who believes that God really requires women to cover every inch of their bodies including their eyes, IS brainwashed in my opinion. Likewise, I believe that the majority of people who follow the Salafi cult are brainwashed. You find that intolerant? Fine with me.
peace
If you want to read something into my posts that I haven't said, then that's up to you. I have posted my thoughts on this in detail on this board in the past and don't have the time and energy to write it all up again. You might want to read the "taking off my hijab" thread, many points that are being brought up here again have been discussed there at length.My ridicule and criticism is aimed at a particular sort of women and particularly at a particular type of pro-hijab literature. Anyone wants to misunderstand this, fine. I can't make it any clearer and don't intend to.
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But to some extent, in my personal experience, headscarf does give you that sense of protection and modesty, and it is much easier to "bond" with other Sisters. Maybe it's just the environment where I live in anyway, I don't know about you and where you live.
I live in Egypt where about 99% of women wear some form of hijab. Sexual harassment is a social disease here, even women with niqab get harassed. Yet, as a foreigner, wearing a hijab does decrease it a bit, mostly because people assume that if a Western woman wears it, she is not just wearing it out of tradition or social custom, but because she is a Muslim and has made a conscious decision to do so. Yes, people are friendlier to you and you get some of that "bonding", but, frankly, I can do without this because I find it highly superficial. Many of the people who are overly friendly to me when I'm wearing a headscarf are the same ones who might give me disapproving looks when they see me without.
Also, I am tired of people wearing their religion like a badge, and I have no desire to bond with anyone based on their religious affiliation. But that's just me ? never been and never had the desire to officially belong to any particular group. P
I know German Muslims who wear hijab, and they like the fact that other Muslims can recognize them, but they also report being significantly more harassed by young Arab males.
hmm -
I live in Egypt where about 99% of women wear some form of hijab. Sexual harassment is a social disease here, even women with niqab get harassed. Yet, as a foreigner, wearing a hijab does decrease it a bit, mostly because people assume that if a Western woman wears it, she is not just wearing it out of tradition or social custom, but because she is a Muslim and has made a conscious decision to do so. Yes, people are friendlier to you and you get some of that "bonding", but, frankly, I can do without this because I find it highly superficial. Many of the people who are overly friendly to me when I'm wearing a headscarf are the same ones who might give me disapproving looks when they see me without.
Also, I am tired of people wearing their religion like a badge, and I have no desire to bond with anyone based on their religious affiliation. But that's just me ? never been and never had the desire to officially belong to any particular group. P
Agree with you Leyna. Same stuff/different levels in Pakistan as well.
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I live in Egypt where about 99% of women wear some form of hijab. Sexual harassment is a social disease here, even women with niqab get harassed. Yet, as a foreigner, wearing a hijab does decrease it a bit, mostly because people assume that if a Western woman wears it, she is not just wearing it out of tradition or social custom, but because she is a Muslim and has made a conscious decision to do so. Yes, people are friendlier to you and you get some of that "bonding", but, frankly, I can do without this because I find it highly superficial. Many of the people who are overly friendly to me when I'm wearing a headscarf are the same ones who might give me disapproving looks when they see me without.
Also, I am tired of people wearing their religion like a badge, and I have no desire to bond with anyone based on their religious affiliation. But that's just me ? never been and never had the desire to officially belong to any particular group. P
I know German Muslims who wear hijab, and they like the fact that other Muslims can recognize them, but they also report being significantly more harassed by young Arab males.
hmmGreat post, especially the bolded.
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sigh
Likewise.
I have clearly stated that I believe the woman in that particular text has been brainwashed, and I stand by what I said.
Uha, and you're either being rather dim or simply disingenuous if you don't see that many women hold the same attitude of the woman of that text. So you are in fact suggesting that many women who wear hijab are brainwashed. If you stand by what you've said then I've understood your claims correctly.
A person who believes that God really requires women to cover every inch of their bodies including their eyes, IS brainwashed in my opinion.
Which IS bullshit. Like I said to bro huruf, using the 'brainwashing' card to ridicule women who hold a different position to you is stupid. It doesn't work because they can throw the same accusation back at you, and neither of you can claim to have the stronger claim. So if you're here to simply make unsubstantiated claims, then do us a favour and do it in a less verbose manner. Wrapping bs with eloquent rhetoric is tiring.
Likewise, I believe that the majority of people who follow the Salafi cult are brainwashed. You find that intolerant? Fine with me.
peaceNo, I find that stupid. Clearly you're fine with that, but I kinda take exception when people like to spout stupidity in public. By all means, do it in private, but have some courtesy and refrain from inflicting it on others.
My ridicule and criticism is aimed at a particular sort of women and particularly at a particular type of pro-hijab literature. Anyone wants to misunderstand this, fine. I can't make it any clearer and don't intend to.
No, don't worry, you've made yourself perfectly clear. Mocking a rather touching poem by extensive emoticons hasn't been misunderstood by me.
You're problem is that you're a hypocrite. On the one hand you object to what you see as patronising literature towards western women, yet with the other you call certain people who wear hijab brainwashed. I suppose patronising these hijabis is acceptable, fight fire with fire, eh?
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I live in Egypt where about 99% of women wear some form of hijab. Sexual harassment is a social disease here, even women with niqab get harassed. Yet, as a foreigner, wearing a hijab does decrease it a bit, mostly because people assume that if a Western woman wears it, she is not just wearing it out of tradition or social custom, but because she is a Muslim and has made a conscious decision to do so. Yes, people are friendlier to you and you get some of that "bonding", but, frankly, I can do without this because I find it highly superficial. Many of the people who are overly friendly to me when I'm wearing a headscarf are the same ones who might give me disapproving looks when they see me without.
Hence why I said I could not use my experience to represent yours, because obviously your environment is different to mine. In my case, most of the time, there is less attention when the headscarf is worn. I may perceive your attitude incorrectly anyway, because it seems you are projecting your own experience and environment on to others. Just because the women get harassed nonetheless in Egypt, it does not mean it will be the same everywhere.
I am not saying anything about wearing a certain style of clothing for the sake of religious identity. I am all about unity regardless of one's backgrounds. It is more about them wearing what they believe to be the right thing. People believe that headscarf embodies modesty, and not necessarily about showing OMG-LOOK-AT-ME-I'M-A-MUSLIM. Islam tells us to be modest, and that is what they believe what modesty is, which gives them the inner peace by practicing it. So be it.
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Like I said to bro huruf, using the 'brainwashing' card to ridicule women who hold a different position to you is stupid. It doesn't work because they can throw the same accusation back at you, and neither of you can claim to have the stronger claim. So if you're here to simply make unsubstantiated claims, then do us a favour and do it in a less verbose manner.
I concur.
Anyway, even if they are "brainwashed", it is not their crime to be so. The intention of those women who wear the headscarf is ultimately to practice their vision of Islam, as difficult as it is. As long as they practice it peacefully and without harm to anyone else, there is no problem with that IMHO.
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So if you're here to simply make unsubstantiated claims, then do us a favour and do it in a less verbose manner.
By all means, do it in private, but have some courtesy and refrain from inflicting it on others.
With all respect, I will continue to say what I want to say and in the manner I deem appropriate.
For years, this sort of propaganda has been directed at us, and for a long time women, including myself, have tried to ignore it and not speak up against the continuous attempts at making us feel guilty if we don't want to cover our heads, and at the increasing dominance of the subject in any discussion regarding Muslim women. Doing so, we have been told, means we are not being sisterly, we are being unsupportive of women who fight for their right to wear hijab and so on.
Texts like the above are BS, full of silly stereotypes, patronizing rhetorics and anti-Western propaganda. And the ideology behind the niqab is sick. For a long time we've been bullied into not speaking up against this nonsense while those texts keep popping up everywhere.
I've become immune to the bullying, so if anyone on here wants to continue misunderstanding or attacking me, that is their problem, and I won't reply to it.
The women from the site those texts are taken from are anything but sisterly, btw. As soon as you dare having your own opinion, i.e. in regards to hijab, the saccharine sweetness makes place for a lot of bitter venom. You will get attacked, being accused of being arrogant, not pious enough, rejecting the truth and so on. There is no room for discussion, exchange of thoughts, having your own opinion is a big no-no. Either you follow the view of the scholars, in this case the Salafi scholars, or you're pretty much an unbeliever.
There is a poll on the forum to find out who covers and how much. Members have various choices. There is no neutral choice such as "I don't cover"; the only option a non-hijabi can chose is "Hijab? No thanks, give me Barbie any time!"
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Not understanding the disproportionate response Mushu. What did Leyna say that was so stupid?
She said "A person who believes that God really requires women to cover every inch of their bodies including their eyes, IS brainwashed in my opinion."
And you responded with
Which IS bullshit. Like I said to bro huruf, using the 'brainwashing' card to ridicule women who hold a different position to you is stupid.
Leyna isn't using the brainwashing card solely because these women are holding a different position. She's merely stating that anyone who believes that God requires (<--absolutely critical phrase) you to cover your entire body is brainwashed. And can any of us here really disagree? We all believe in the qur'an here. Clearly nowhere in the qur'an does it say that God requires such a thing. So, for someone to believe that is the case, well...some level of brainwashing has to be at play here, does it not? Again, what is so "stupid" about what she said?
Keep seeing this "voluntary" business being tossed around in this thread. What exactly is "voluntary"? If a woman is told that she is a bad person if she doesn't wear hijab, does her decision to do so really fall under the "voluntary" category? In one sense, sure. She doesn't have a gun to her head, after all. But, in another very real sense, her decision is involuntary insofar as she is acting on incomplete information. The information our hypothetical woman is being fed is that "God requires" such and such, when that is clearly not true. God absolutely requires no such thing, full stop. The gap between her 'voluntary' decision and the incomplete information she is using to make said decision, is the space in which brainwashing finds itself.
Anyway, even if they are "brainwashed", it is not their crime to be so.
I take issue with this. Brainwashing is very much a crime. It is not just relegated to one individual. It feeds upon itself, it festers, and spreads. On one level, a woman is just choosing to believe however she believes, but on another, she is acting as a conduit through which these falsehoods are spreading themselves.