Former Muslim
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Hello all at Free-Minds,
I am a former member of the forum and former Muslim/Quran Aloner, who just recently stumbled across this site again by accident and am wondering how everyone is doing ) I'm not after any arguments or attempts to prove anything but did enjoy the very discussions which led me to where I am now - that is why I thought I'd sign up again and say hi handshake
I had the usual qualms and unanswered questions most here have had with the mainstream practise of Islam and turned towards communities such as this, of people asking questions about how to correctly pray, the meaning of various ayahs and all the usual stuff we have always talked about here at Free-Minds.
Unfortunately, for me, I was not able to reconcile the inconsistencies I found and after years of searching and I felt that I had to admit to myself that these inconsistencies were the result of the non-divine nature of the religion.
(Please forgive my wording - I am trying my best to write my post in such a way that does not offend anyone yet conveys what I think i.e. I'm not trying to state to anyone that Islam/Christianity/Judaism etc are false religions I'm trying to explain that for me and my personal truth and understandings, it is what I believe)
I think for me the argument supporting the Jesus-myth was the final nail in the coffin which led me to my Agnostic position regarding the issue of God's communication/interaction with humanity (which I suppose I always had S) and the largely secular life I lead now.
The last thing I want to do is hotly argue or offend, like many non-Muslims I witnessed here doing before. What I am after is friendly discussion and an enquiry into where all my previous friends (or maybe former friends () have progressed to now - because that is how I felt with many of the people here - we were all searching for the truth - I'd like to find out where that has led many of the kind people here at Free-Minds.
I always enjoyed the fruitful discussions and warm company of the people here - especially the kindness of the moderation team and hope I can be welcomed back and reacquaint myself with many of the members here.
Peace! sun
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peace,
Were you using a different username before?
Also, can you elaborate on the following
I think for me the argument supporting the Jesus-myth was the final nail in the coffin which led me to my Agnostic position regarding the issue of God's communication/interaction with humanity...
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Hello Arkan, greetings and welcome to the forum. Please share your thoughts about islam and the problems you think there are with it.
May be you have time on your hands so why not read the following thread.
I have put up short interpretation of first 9 surahs in there. I was hoping to put up rest of them but the thread is locked to save bandwedth. Hope people on this site read it and see if they can find anything useful in there.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=86085b74dda5f85d66eb6171661fccd5&topic=9601931.0
The quran has been heavily misinterpreted by all sunni shia factions. Particulalry regarding terms like MALAAIKA, JIN, stories of the prophets have been turned into children's magic storeis.
As for story of Jesus, what do you find problematic?
May be admin can unlock my thread after they read it so that I could develop it as a reference thread especially regarding interpretation of the quran.
regards and all the best.
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Hello again Wakas,
Yes, I'm using an entirely new username, please forgive my secrecy but I trust you'll understand why (
I gave the Jesus-myth as a short explanation as to the final days and weeks in the turning point of my understanding, after years of trying to reconcile truth and practise in Islam.
The historicity of Jesus - Jesus the man who was born of a virgin, who exists in no secular sources is in fact a recyled pre-Christian deity (the fact that such things as the virgin birth are accepted in Islam is testament that it recylced the same myths) such as Osiris. Looking in a simillar manner to other pre-Jewish and pre-Islamic/Christian events shows that most of the stories can be seen as having origins in Polytheistic cultures.
If you look further it spills out into the Judaism's Egyptian Captivity myth among other things (since many of these facts are included in the later religions) the original source for these stories being found in ancient art and writing. Genetic analysis of Jewish people corroborates movement contrary to the one found in mythology.
Again - the issues surrounding these things are not the sole reason why I'm no longer a Muslim, there are other issues pertaining directly with Islam itself and the nature of the God and I'd rather reacquaint myself with people right now than sit here writing long posts lol
How are you doing anyway Wakas?
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peace Arkan,
I'm good, thanks.
Re virgin birth
There is discussion here on whether Jesus was born to a virgin or not. The minority of people here think he was not. Most think he was, including myself.
In terms of the "miraculous" nature, there is some weighting that Mary was hermaphrodite/intersex. This is mainly based on
So when she delivered she said "My Lord, I have delivered a female," and God is fully aware of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil."
Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into him/it (fee hi) from Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scripture; and she was of those who were dutiful.
And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her (fee ha) from Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.
hi = him/it
ha = herIt would still have required a very unique event, but Mary being hermaphrodite/intersex would explain it somewhat. This is my current view.
As with most topics, it has been discussed on the forum before, e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8422.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8408.0 -
peace Arkan,
I'm good, thanks.
Re virgin birth
really Wakas ? you really think that jesus was born from a virgin ?
even though the quran is clear that he is not
he had a father
he was married
and he had childrenit'a all in the quran, and yet, because the word ROUH, changed it's meaning, from the original meaning, you cannot understand the story of Jesus in the uran
The key word i ROOH .
than how do you call intercorse between a husband and wife in the quran
and how did Mary receive the revelation and who told here about ISAdid you know that Miriam had only the command to get married ? never the angels told her about Jesus
Sound weird heh ? it's clear in the quran though
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Unfortunately, for me, I was not able to reconcile the inconsistencies I found and after years of searching and I felt that I had to admit to myself that these inconsistencies were the result of the non-divine nature of the religion.
I don't get your point man; you want people to care as the missionaries.
Reminds me of this old movie which comes on late at night...
Perhaps we should yell, "Shane, come back!"
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWdPmapuOd4
Sound weird heh ?
Yes weird and sloppy; gather your thoughts precisely, one point at a time, and bring forth your evidence.
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Hello all at Free-Minds,
I am a former member of the forum and former Muslim/Quran Aloner, who just recently stumbled across this site again by accident and am wondering how everyone is doing ) I'm not after any arguments or attempts to prove anything but did enjoy the very discussions which led me to where I am now - that is why I thought I'd sign up again and say hi handshake
I had the usual qualms and unanswered questions most here have had with the mainstream practise of Islam and turned towards communities such as this, of people asking questions about how to correctly pray, the meaning of various ayahs and all the usual stuff we have always talked about here at Free-Minds.
Unfortunately, for me, I was not able to reconcile the inconsistencies I found and after years of searching and I felt that I had to admit to myself that these inconsistencies were the result of the non-divine nature of the religion.
(Please forgive my wording - I am trying my best to write my post in such a way that does not offend anyone yet conveys what I think i.e. I'm not trying to state to anyone that Islam/Christianity/Judaism etc are false religions I'm trying to explain that for me and my personal truth and understandings, it is what I believe)
I think for me the argument supporting the Jesus-myth was the final nail in the coffin which led me to my Agnostic position regarding the issue of God's communication/interaction with humanity (which I suppose I always had S) and the largely secular life I lead now.
The last thing I want to do is hotly argue or offend, like many non-Muslims I witnessed here doing before. What I am after is friendly discussion and an enquiry into where all my previous friends (or maybe former friends ) have progressed to now - because that is how I felt with many of the people here - we were all searching for the truth - I'd like to find out where that has led many of the kind people here at Free-Minds.
I always enjoyed the fruitful discussions and warm company of the people here - especially the kindness of the moderation team and hope I can be welcomed back and reacquaint myself with many of the members here.
Peace! sun
Hi Arkan
I never heard of a Quran aloner ending up agnostic so it is interesting for me. I've gone Quran alone for about 4 or 5 years and there are some issues which raise questions for me also but all in all, the evidence that is for the divinity of the scripture outweights that of those which raise doubts about it.
I mean how would you explain the verses in relation to science such as the expansion of the Universe or how a baby is developed inside the womb of the mother, the formation of stars and so on? Would you consider a man 1400 years ago to be capable of such knowledge? or to be capable of guessing so effectively?
The only thing i can think of is that if it is not from God, then it is from some kinda super alien race but that is less likely than God so it is from God.
The last thing I want to do is hotly argue or offend, like many non-Muslims I witnessed here doing before. What I am after is friendly discussion and an enquiry into where all my previous friends (or maybe former friends Sad) have progressed to now - because that is how I felt with many of the people here - we were all searching for the truth - I'd like to find out where that has led many of the kind people here at Free-Minds.
I always enjoyed the fruitful discussions and warm company of the people here - especially the kindness of the moderation team and hope I can be welcomed back and reacquaint myself with many of the members here.
I don't get why anyone would be offended here unless they choose to have some negative image of you just because of your beliefs or your changing of some them (namely not believing the Quran to be divine) You have certainly not offended me and your what appears to me as a kind and polite approach is appreciated but i'm not so clear on your intentions. Do you want to have fruitful discussions or just get acquainted?
Peace peace
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Well, here is how I understand story of Joseph in the quran.
12 MAKKAH Yusuf - JOSEPH rev seq 53
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Alif L'am Ra. These are verses of the Book that is clear.
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We have revealed this Qur?an in Arabic so that you could understand.
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We relate to you the best of stories through this Qur?an by Our revelation to you, though before this you were of those unaware of it.
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Behold, Joseph said to his father O my father! In a dream I saw eleven stars and the sun and the moon - I saw them submitting themselves to me!
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He replied O my son! Do not say anything about this dream to your brothers, lest they plan some trick against you; for wicked mindset is an open enemy of a human beings.
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It will happen, as you dreamt, that you will be chosen by your Lord for His work. He will teach you how to interpret visions, and will perfect His favour upon you and the children of Jacob, as He perfected it upon your forefathers Abraham and Isaac before you. Surely your Lord is all Knowing and wise.
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Indeed in the story of Joseph and his brothers, there are guidelines for seekers of guidance.
His brothers said to each other, see, Joseph and his brother (Benjamin) are loved more by our father than us, even though we are a group and more helpful. Surely our father is mistaken.
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Let us kill Joseph or throw him out to some far-off land so that the attention of our father turns exclusively towards us, after that, we may again become righteous people!
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At this one of them said Do not kill Joseph, but if you must, throw him into some dark well, so that he may be picked up by some passing by caravan.
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So they ask their father O our father! Why is it that you do not trust us with Joseph, though we are his sincere well-wishers?
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Send him with us tomorrow, that he may play and enjoy himself. We shall take good care of him.
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He said I will be worried if you take him away, for I fear lest a wolf should eat him up while you are off your guard .
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They said If a wolf could eat him despite our number then surely we would be worthless people!
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So they were able to take him away and they resolved to throw him into a dark well. We revealed this (to Joseph) A time will come when you will admonish them about this act of theirs, now they do not perceive its consequences.
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At nightfall they return to their father, weeping.
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They said Father! We went off to compete in racing with one another, and left Joseph by our belongings, and a wolf ate him ! But you will not believe us even though we are telling the truth.
1 And they brought his shirt as proof stained with false blood. No! He cried, Your selves have tempted you to evil. so what can I do but have good patience for Allah Alone can help me bear the loss you have inflicted me with.
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At length a caravan passed by, and sent a water carrier who let down his bucket, he shouted with joy O goodness! here is a young boy. They concealed him like trade merchandise. But Allah knew what they did.
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They sold him for a petty price, a few dirhams, they had such a low estimation of him.
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The Egyptian who bought Joseph said to his wife Be kind to him. He may prove useful to us, or we may adopt him as a son. Thus We established Joseph in the land and taught him the sense of handling all the affairs that happen in this world. Allah has full power over all affairs, though most people realise it not.
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When he reached maturity, We had bestowed on him ability of gathering information about things and ways of making sense of that. Thus We reward those who do good for others.
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Now, the lady in whose house he was attempted to seduce him. She bolted the doors and said Come! He replied May Allah protect me from this! surely my lord has entrusted me with this good household. Such as trust not others or break trust of others cannot not prosper.
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But she ignored his advice and still advanced toward him, and he too would have advanced towards her had he not seen the guidance from his Lord. Thus We shielded him from doing anything whereby he could harm others and bring shame upon himself, for he was true follower of our guidance.
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As she went for him he went for the door but she caught him at the door by his shirt thus ripped his shirt from behind. At the door they found her husband. Seeing him she cried What punishment does someone who intended evil against your wife deserve except imprisonment or a painful chastisement?
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He said It was she who attempted to seduce me. Seeing this a member of her own
family bore an expert witness saying in his opinion If his shirt is ripped from the front, then she is speaking the truth and he is lying. -
But if it is ripped from behind, then he is speaking the truth and she is lying.
2 So when her husband saw that Joseph's shirt was ripped from behind, he said to her It is one of the tricks of you women! Your trick was mighty indeed!
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O Joseph, say no more about this, and you my wife seek forgiveness for your sins, for you were indeed the one who did the wrong.
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The word spread among women of the city The wife of Al-Aziz has seduced her young slave, for she has fallen madly in love with him. In fact, we see her totally lost in love.
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When she heard about their embarrassing remarks, she invited them and prepared for them a banquet, and gave each of them a knife. As they engaged in cutting fruit, she called in Joseph to come out before them. When they saw him, they were so amazed that they cut their hands and exclaimed spontaneously Good Lord! He looks nothing like a slave; he looks like a highly ranked person of noble descent.
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She said this is he about whom you blamed me. No doubt I seduced him, but he escaped. If he doesn?t do what I say, he will certainly be thrown into prison and be
disgraced. -
Joseph said O my Lord! I would rather go to prison than to that to which they invite me; and unless You inspire me with some way out of their cunning snare for me, I may end up, inclined towards them and become of those who ignore your guidance.
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Thereupon his Lord granted his prayer and warded off their cunning snare from him; surely He hears all and knows all.
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So even after all the evidence they had seen, they thought it proper to send him to
prison for a while. -
Two young men also entered the prison along with him. One day one of them said I saw in a dream that I was pressing wine. The other said I saw in a dream that I was carrying bread on my head, of which birds were eating. Tell us the interpretation of these dreams, for we see that you are a man who does good for others.
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Joseph replied I will tell you the interpretation of these dreams before you are
served the food you eat, this is part of the sense which my Lord has taught me. In fact, I have nothing to do with rule of people who oppose faith in guidance of Allah therefore they deny the hereafter.
3 I follow the guidance of Allah and guide others to do the same just like my forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is not fitting that we take any gods beside Allah. This is our task set by Allah for the good of mankind, yet most of the people do not appreciate it.
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O my fellow inmates! Tell me what is better; many different gods or just one god, Allah, the Irresistible?
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Those you serve besides Him are nothing but mere names which you and your forefathers have invented, for which Allah has revealed no sanction. The sovereignty belongs to none but Allah, Who has ordained that you believe in none as god save Him. That is the way of life which is right, yet most of the people do not learn to know it.
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As to your dreams O my inmates! one of you will be released and serve wine to your lord the King of Egypt; and the other will be crucified and the birds will eat from his head. That is how your cases will be decided concerning which you inquired.
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Then, to the one who he thought would be released, he said Mention me to your lord. But the lack of attention made him forget to mention Joseph to his King, so he remained in the prison a few more years.
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Then one day the king of Egypt said I saw seven fat cows in my dream which were eaten up by seven lean cows, likewise I saw seven green ears of corn and seven others
that were dried up. O chiefs! Tell me the meaning of my dream if you can interpret the dreams. -
They replied Confused nightmares but we are not skilled in the interpretation of dreams.
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Thereupon one of the two, who was released remembered after at length and he said I will tell you its interpretation; just send me to Joseph.
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He said Joseph O you the truthful one! Tell us the meaning of the dream of seven fat cows which are eaten up by seven lean ones and of seven green ears of corn and seven others dried up so that I may return to the people and let them know the meaning of this
dream. -
He replied You will cultivate for seven consecutive years. During this time you should leave the corn you reap in the ear, except what may be sufficient for your food.
4 Then, after that period, there will come upon you seven hard years which will eat away all that you had stored except a little which you may have specifically set aside.
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After that period will come a year of abundant rain, in which the people will squeeze the juice.
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The king said Bring this man to me. When the messenger came Joseph said to him Go back to your lord and ask him about the case of those women who cut their hands. Indeed my Lord has full knowledge of their snare.
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The king questioned them, saying What do you say about the incident when you attempted to seduce Joseph? They replied God forbid! We know of no evil on his part. The
wife of Aziz said Now that the truth has come to light, it was I who attempted to seduce him against his will. The fact is he is absolutely trustable. -
Joseph said, By this inquiry I meant to let him Aziz know that I did not betray him in his absence, and that Allah does not let the snare of the treacherous succeed for long, for truth remains constantly true even if there is none to believe it.
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This I did not do to prove my innocence or to bring shame on wife of Aziz but to maintain her husband's trust in human decency for he does good to others as he did to me, surely man does fall victim to harmful things by his own choice except the one to whom my Lord has shown the better way out of his mercy, certainly my Lord is full of grace and full of mercy.
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The king said Bring him to me; I will appoint him to assist me in taking care of affairs of the kingdom. When Joseph was brought to king and they had mutual talk the king said From now on you have an honourable place with us, and you will enjoy our full confidence.
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Seeing the situation that kingdom was going to be destroyed by natural disasters if right steps were not taken Joseph requested the king let me deal with the resources of the land. Certainly I know how to manage things to avoid what is otherwise inevitable; Rest assured I have all the knowledge needed for the task ahead.
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Thus We established Joseph in the land to live therein in any way he wished within our set limits. We bestow Our mercy on whom We please and We do not let the reward of good people go to waste.
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Yet the reward in the hereafter will be even better for those who believe in our guidance and do what is right according to it.
5 At length due to famine brothers of Joseph came to Egypt looking for food to buy so they entered his office. He recognized them but they did not recognize him.
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When he had talked with them and given them their due provisions, he said Bring your half brother to me when you come again. Do you not see that I give full measure and provide the best hospitality?
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But if you bring him not, you shall have no grain, nor shall you be able to approach me again.
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They replied We shall certainly try our best to bring him from his father. This we will surely do.
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Joseph told his officials to put their money into their saddlebags such that they should come know about it only when they reach their family, so that they lack not money to come back.
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When they returned to their father, they said Father! Grain is henceforth denied to us unless we take with us our brother, so send our brother with us so that we may get our measure; we take full responsibility for his safety.
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He said Should I trust you with him as I once trusted you with his brother? Allah is unique in being trustable and He is ever Merciful gracefully.
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When they opened their baggage, they discovered that their money had been returned to them by the king out of generosity. Father! They cried with joy, What more can we ask for? Here is our money returned back to us. We will buy more food for our family, we will take good care of our brother and obtain an extra camel load of grain. This way, it will be easy to add another camel load of grain.
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Jacob replied I will never send him with you until you pledge in the name of Allah that you will surely bring him back to me unless you become helpless. And when they had given their pledge, he said Allah is our Witness over this pledge you made.
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Then he said; My sons! Do not enter the capital of Egypt altogether through one gate that they take you wrongly, enter from the different gates and separately. Not that I can avail you aught against Allah; this advice is just a precaution, because none can accurately judge except Allah. In Him I put my trust and in Him let all those who need someone to put their rust in, should put their trust.
6 When they entered the city as their father had advised them, it did not avail them against the will of Allah. Of course, Jacob did his best to avert the fear he had in his heart. Indeed he possessed the knowledge which We had given him, but most people are not aware about it.
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When they entered upon Joseph, he called his full brother alone to himself, and said In fact, I am your brother Joseph, now you need not grieve at what they have been doing.
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While Joseph was arranging the loading of their provisions, he put the royal drinking cup into his brother?s pack. Later on a crier called out O people of the caravan! You must be thieves.
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They turned back and asked What have you lost?
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The officials said We have lost the King?s drinking cup and the one who brings it back, will be awarded a camel-load of corn, I guarantee it.
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Joseph?s brothers said By Allah! You should know, by our behaviour during our stay here, that we did not come here to make mischief in the land and we are no thieves.
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The official said What should be the punishment of the thief, if you prove to be the liars?
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They replied The punishment for him in whose pack you find the royal cup will be to make him your bondsman, that?s how we punish wrongdoers.
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After this Joseph first began to search the packs of his half brothers before the pack of his full brother. Finally he took it out of his full brother?s pack. Thus We directed Joseph under our law for Israel, for He could not seize his brother under the King?s law; but Allah willed otherwise. We exalt in ranks whom We pleases, He is the One Whose knowledge is far above knowledge of all others.
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After accusation of theft half brothers remarked This is no surprise if he has committed a theft, for his brother also committed a theft before him. Hearing this, Joseph suppressed his feelings and did not reveal anything to them but said to himself What a terrible situation you people are putting yourselves in and knowledge of that of which you accuse me is with Allah.
7 They said O noble prince! the accused has a very aged father who may not be able to take this, so take one of us instead of him. We surely see that you are one of those who do good to others.
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Joseph replied God forbid that we should seize other than the one with whom we found our property if we did so then indeed we would be unjust.
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When they lost their hope of moving Joseph, they went aside to confer in private. The
eldest of them said You know that your father had taken a solemn pledge in the name of Allah, and you also know how you fell short of your duty with respect to Joseph. Therefore, I am not going to leave this land until my father gives me permission or Allah decides for me, and He is unique of all the judges. -
Go back to your father and tell him, father, your son committed theft. We did not see him
stealing, we testify only to what we know. How could we guard against the unforeseen? -
You may enquire from the people of the city where we lodged and the caravan in which we travelled that we are indeed telling the truth.
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When Jacob is told he said, No! Your yourselves have contrived a story. But I will bear this too with good patience. May be Allah will bring them all back to me; indeed He is all Knowing and all Wise."
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He turned his face away from them, crying Alas for Joseph! His eyes became used to grief, and he became overwhelmed by sorrow.
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They said By Allah! you will not cease to remember Joseph until you ruin your health or kill yourself by this grief.
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He said I complain of my distress and grief to Allah Alone and I know from Allah what you know not.
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O my sons! Go and search for Joseph and his brother. Never give up hope of Allah?s mercy; in fact none despairs of Allah?s mercy except people who fail to put their faith in his guidance.
8 When they went back to Egypt and entered Joseph?s office, they said Noble prince! We and our family are in distress because we are running short on money so please give us full quota and also more out of your own generosity. Surely Allah rewards those who help others.
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Hearing this, he said do you know what you did to Joseph and his brother while acting out of ignorance
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In surprise they cried What! Are you really Joseph? He said Yes! I am Joseph and this is my brother. Allah has indeed been gracious to us. In fact as for the righteous and patient; Allah really does not let the reward of those who do good to others go to waste.
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They said By Allah! surely we can see why Allah has preferred you over us. We have indeed been guilty of side stepping his guidance.
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Joseph said There is no blame on you today. May Allah be graceful to you! He is unique of those who show mercy!
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Go, take my shirt and cast it over the face of my father, he will recover his happy sight. Then come back to me with all the members of your family.
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When the caravan started from Egypt their father in Canaan said Certainly I feel the scent of Joseph, even though you may think I am out of my mind.
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The family and people around him said By Allah! You are still suffering from your old illusion.
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But when the bearer of the good news arrived, he cast the shirt over his face and he regained his happy sight. Then he said Didn?t I tell you that I know from Allah what you do not know?
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They said Father! Pray for the forgiveness for our sins. We have indeed been of those who have done wrong.
9 He replied Soon I will ask my Lord for your forgiveness; surely He is the One who is graceful and merciful.
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When they came to Joseph, he asked his parents to lodge with himself, and said
Now enter the city. Allah willing, you will live here in peace. -
After entering the city he helped his parents to seats on the throne, and they all acknowledged his rule and assured him of their loyalty by taking oath before him. This, said Joseph to his father, is the interpretation of my dream which I dreamt long before. My Lord has really made it come true. It was His grace that He took me out of prison and brought you all here from the desert even though the misconception had stirred up strife between me and my brothers. For sure my Lord fulfils His plan in mysterious ways. Surely He is the One Who is all Knowing and all Wise.
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O Lord! You have indeed given me a kingdom and taught me the interpretation of
the information regarding all affairs of the kingdom. The Creator of the heavens and the earth, You are my Protector in this world and in the hereafter, bring me my death the while I am in state of submission to your guidance and count me among those who do what is right. -
O Muhammad, this story which We have revealed to you is a tale of the unseen; for you were not there with (the brothers of Joseph) when they collectively conspired and schemed against him.
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Yet strive as you may, most people are not going to put faith in our guidance,
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even though You do not demand any wage for this information. This Qur?an is nothing less than a reminder for people of all the nations.
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There are many signs in the heavens and the earth which they pass by; yet they pay
no attention to them! -
As a result most of them who believe in Allah also take other gods with him.
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Do they feel secure that Allah?s decreed revolt will not fall on them, or that the Hour of Doom will not come upon them suddenly while they do not expecting it?
10 Tell them plainly This is my way. I invite you to Allah with sure knowledge which I
and my followers possess. Glory be to Allah, so I am not of the polytheists.-
All the Messengers that We sent before you, O Muhammad, were human beings, to
whom We sent Our Revelations after choosing them from the people of their town. Have these who oppose our guidance not travelled through the land and seen what was the end of
those who passed away before them? From their destiny you should know that the home of the hereafter is better for those who do what is right. Why don?t you understand? -
Respite was granted to people until the Messengers gave up hope of their peoples' reformation and realized that they were being treated as liars, Our help came to them and We delivered those whom We pleased; and Our scourge was not averted from the
criminal people. -
There is a lesson in these stories of former people for the people who learn to understand things. This story of Joseph revealed in the Qur?an is not an invented
tale, but a confirmation of previous scriptures - a detailed exposition of all things, and
is a guidance and blessing for the people who believe in our guidance.
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Mughal1 - I had a look at your link - you make some very interesting points - it's very VERY long though! Maybe you should realease it as a Pdf Ebook
Wakas - Thank you Wakas for sending the links, I have had a look through both of them
AlFajr - Many thanks for your kind and warm welcome
SEid - I loved your link - it made me laugh the second I heard him shout 'Come Back' - I can see how this all looks like it
Hi nimnimak_11 - I know a few other people like myself, as a matter of fact there were about 3 of us on this forum discussing the crisis we were facing in light of the issues we came to face and I'll have to admit to you that the other two members at the time were a lot more candid and open about how they were feeling than myself. I think all of us at that time were feeling very guilty about even the very idea of thinking such thoughts, but I think after a while we could no longer ignore or hide from them - we basically had to set aside our fears and be honest with ourselves and our own personal truths.
I mean how would you explain the verses in relation to science such as the expansion of the Universe or how a baby is developed inside the womb of the mother, the formation of stars and so on? Would you consider a man 1400 years ago to be capable of such knowledge? or to be capable of guessing so effectively?
I would love to discuss these issues with you soon, and better explain myself with regards to a whole plethora of issues.
I don't get why anyone would be offended here unless they choose to have some negative image of you just because of your beliefs or your changing of some them (namely not believing the Quran to be divine) You have certainly not offended me and your what appears to me as a kind and polite approach is appreciated but i'm not so clear on your intentions. Do you want to have fruitful discussions or just get acquainted?
Everyone here has made me feel very welcome, much more than I imagined - as for my intentions, like I said I'd like to see how people have progressed and also discuss some of the things I went through at that time.
I put myself in my own shoes a while back when I was still a Muslim and think how I would have recieved such a person as me - and to be honest I would have suspicions of ulterior motives and I realise that there's nothing wrong with that at all, suspicions can be very healthy, but a personal judgement can only reasonably made after you have seen someones actions, so I suppose for me, it remains to be seen
I did notice that since making my initial posts it has restarted a lot of discussions on Jesus and Mary etc to which I think is very healthy, and it's amazing the kind way in which people are discussing these issues with each other (which can only serve to be constructive) it's not the way I always remember things being here! lol - because at times things certainly got very heated! So right now, it's very apparent to me that many of the members I remember particularly have certainly grown a lot - which is a great thing - as for the moderation team I always remember them always being like that - but I suppose that's what you have to get from a team
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Well Arkan i totally agree with setting aside fears and going for the truth which is like the first neccessary thing in our judgement and pursuits. In my case it strengthend my belief and trust in God. I do have doubts on the scripture from time to time but I feel if i spend some time on weighing all things for and agains it's divinity. At the moment it is rare for a day to go by and me not read the scripture. When i do read it though the reverence of God it puts in me (depending on where i am with it) is awesome. Some verses are spectacular in terms of advice and some verses are questionable in purpose and content. Either way i believe i were to be unbiased, i'd have a hard time refuting the divinity of the scripture.
With regards to suspicion i am slightly sucpicious to be honest but i am like that with almost all people.
I am still very interested to know what your take is one the scientific verses of the Quran. Being a former believer, you may know the verses well and i was wondering what your view is on them. For example surah 90 and the development of a baby inside the mothers womb. Do consider it possible for a man 1400 years ago to write such verses without some kind of inspiration or authority from God?
I do not expect you to reply to my above question untill i quote some verses but i am busy at the moment so it will have to wait unless you know the verses off by heart.
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I am still very interested to know what your take is one the scientific verses of the Quran. Being a former believer, you may know the verses well and i was wondering what your view is on them. For example surah 90 and the development of a baby inside the mothers womb. Do consider it possible for a man 1400 years ago to write such verses without some kind of inspiration or authority from God?
I would be glad to share my thoughts on the presence or lack thereof -[ pertaining to scientific verses.
I do not expect you to reply to my above question untill i quote some verses but i am busy at the moment so it will have to wait unless you know the verses off by heart.
No worries, we all have things to do and can only visit the forum when time permits, so in the meantime I'll try my best to summarise my thoughts on this issue for you
Before I mention this though, I'll have to say that even when I existed as a 'traditional muslim' I was most certainly not impressed by the rationale and supposed intellectual merits of the Ulema.
It was clear for me, from the very beginning - that the history of pre-Islamic Arabia was severely misrepresented by Islamic 'scholars' in order to elevate the position of Muhammad and support certain themes - at the time my thoughts were that this was unnecessary and any attempts to do so were obviously an indication of insecurity on behalf of the person knowingly perpetrating that particular falsehood.
This is very important as it's related to the issue of the Scientific verses. Issues such as the presence of Christians/Christian Arabs in the peninsula was completely played down in light of tons of evidence to the contrary. The literacy of the Hijaz was completely misrepresented by the Ulema, funny considering Arabia is adjacent to the three oldest civilized lands on Earth - Rafidayn (Iraq), Kanaan (Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan) and Kemet/Misr (Egypt) ANYWAY I'm diverging so I'll get back to the point
Back to the Scientific Versus, here is a summary of my thoughts
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Many of the verses claiming to be scientific are not and the understanding and interpretation has been twisted to suit modern ideas.
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The ones that do parallel a general understanding of science aren't spectacular due to the fact that it was understood to be that way by everyone at the time anyway, especially since Hejaz as a middle eastern province enjoyed close proximity to the three oldest centers of civilization as well as Greece and Rome.
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There are verses which clearly run counter not only to science but logic, which can be argued to clearly betray any claims of divine and perfect origin.
Hope this has helped you get a better idea of my point of view.
Peace )
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So right now, it's very apparent to me that many of the members I remember particularly have certainly grown a lot - which is a great thing - as for the moderation team I always remember them always being like that - but I suppose that's what you have to get from a team )
Oddly condescending comments, but hmm...okay.
Are you Cosmicdancer?
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Back to the Scientific Versus, here is a summary of my thoughts
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Many of the verses claiming to be scientific are not and the understanding and interpretation has been twisted to suit modern ideas.
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The ones that do parallel a general understanding of science aren't spectacular due to the fact that it was understood to be that way by everyone at the time anyway, especially since Hejaz as a middle eastern province enjoyed close proximity to the three oldest centers of civilization as well as Greece and Rome.
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There are verses which clearly run counter not only to science but logic, which can be argued to clearly betray any claims of divine and perfect origin.
Hope this has helped you get a better idea of my point of view.
Peace )
Welcome (back)!
Perhaps it would be better if you made a separate topic or further explain which specific verses you think are illogical and unscientific......this would benefit all as truth is a journey which starts by questioning
PEACE
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Oddly condescending comments, but hmm...okay.
Are you Cosmicdancer?
Hello CavemanDoctor - I apologise, I didn't mean it to sound that way - might I add that I myself have likewise grown in that department.
No, I'm not Cosmicdancer - again - I'm not surprised if anyone is suspicious of me hmm
Perhaps it would be better if you made a separate topic or further explain which specific verses you think are illogical and unscientific......this would benefit all as truth is a journey which starts by questioning Wink
Peace Prince - you're right - maybe I will, I've been browsing the forum the last day dropping my two cents on various topics - but yeah maybe I will sometime.
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Peace Arkan
Back to the Scientific Versus, here is a summary of my thoughts
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Many of the verses claiming to be scientific are not and the understanding and interpretation has been twisted to suit modern ideas.
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The ones that do parallel a general understanding of science aren't spectacular due to the fact that it was understood to be that way by everyone at the time anyway, especially since Hejaz as a middle eastern province enjoyed close proximity to the three oldest centers of civilization as well as Greece and Rome.
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There are verses which clearly run counter not only to science but logic, which can be argued to clearly betray any claims of divine and perfect origin.
Hope this has helped you get a better idea of my point of view.
Kindly enlighten us with more details on this assertion.
Javed
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Salam,
Welcome back to the forum...
It is sad to read about people who have lost faith in God and become rejectors...I can tell you there is a Creator as sure as you and I breathe, but when faith in the unseen is mixed with doubt, the doubt takes over.
Best wishes.
