Former Muslim
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Hello Javed1, I'm going to go for a little while now but will elaborate further on these issues when I return and when I hear back from nimnimak_11.
Hello Layth! Thanks for welcoming me back D
I can tell you there is a Creator as sure as you and I breathe, but when faith in the unseen is mixed with doubt, the doubt takes over.
I used to believe as you do - but I think the fundamental difference between us is that our views on doubt and faith are very different - the way we treat them are not the same - which then leads us to see the world in very different ways.
I no longer fear doubt - doubt is the very breathing room one uses to expand - it allows us to look at all possible avenues and not just see what's down one road. Doubt is equatable to humility, and the admission that we are not perfect and do not know everything.
And faith, well for me faith is not an admirable quality - I find it not only arrogant but also something that people hide behind (please do not take offense I'm trying to explain myself in light of the words used () and very VERY dangerous.
All I can tell you is that comparing the last few years as I am now (and now I'm even starting to dislike the term agnostic because it seems a lot here are equalting it with being 'lost' thankfully which I am not) with my time desperately trying to reconcile the problems with Islam and the other religions in light of the presumptuous ideas on what God is - held me back so much.
And now - I am liberated - I do not worry trying to reconcile the many problems - the very problems the people come here to argue about EVERY DAY on EVERY ISSUE - because for me - I can see so clearly why those problems exist - the religion is flawed - therefore why try to bend logic and twist interpretations to fix something that is broken? They don't need to be reconciled - because I understand why they are there.
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And faith, well for me faith is not an admirable quality - I find it not only arrogant but also something that people hide behind (please do not take offense I'm trying to explain myself in light of the words used ) and very VERY dangerous.
What is the force or stimulus behind when you decide to take an action or do an act?
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Hello CavemanDoctor - I apologise, I didn't mean it to sound that way - might I add that I myself have likewise grown in that department.
No, I'm not Cosmicdancer - again - I'm not surprised if anyone is suspicious of me hmm
And yet you won't say who you are? Why exactly? This is a message board. No one is out to get you. Is there a need for this sort of false grandstanding? Oops, looks like I haven't fully grown yet. Apologies.
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And yet you won't say who you are? Why exactly?
Perfect match and personality type...
Hello all at Free-Minds,
I am a former member of the forum and former Muslim/Quran Aloner, who just recently stumbled across this site again by accident and am wondering how everyone is doing I'm not after any arguments or attempts to prove anything but did enjoy the very discussions which led me to where I am now - that is why I thought I'd sign up again and say hi handshake
I had the usual qualms and unanswered questions most here have had with the mainstream practise of Islam and turned towards communities such as this, of people asking questions about how to correctly pray, the meaning of various ayahs and all the usual stuff we have always talked about here at Free-Minds.
Unfortunately, for me, I was not able to reconcile the inconsistencies I found and after years of searching and I felt that I had to admit to myself that these inconsistencies were the result of the non-divine nature of the religion.
(Please forgive my wording - I am trying my best to write my post in such a way that does not offend anyone yet conveys what I think i.e. I'm not trying to state to anyone that Islam/Christianity/Judaism etc are false religions I'm trying to explain that for me and my personal truth and understandings, it is what I believe)
I think for me the argument supporting the Jesus-myth was the final nail in the coffin which led me to my Agnostic position regarding the issue of God's communication/interaction with humanity (which I suppose I always had S) and the largely secular life I lead now.
The last thing I want to do is hotly argue or offend, like many non-Muslims I witnessed here doing before. What I am after is friendly discussion and an enquiry into where all my previous friends (or maybe former friends () have progressed to now - because that is how I felt with many of the people here - we were all searching for the truth - I'd like to find out where that has led many of the kind people here at Free-Minds.
I always enjoyed the fruitful discussions and warm company of the people here - especially the kindness of the moderation team and hope I can be welcomed back and reacquaint myself with many of the members here.
Peace! sun
OK firstly I meant I do not believe in imposing my beliefs on anyone and I will defend the right of anyone to believe what they want - many of my family members are still practising Muslims and I defend their right and the right of all people to believe or not believe what they want. However that does not of course mean I can't say what I think and discuss.
Actually I am torn between supporting you guys in your efforts to reinterpret the Qur'an and move away from the harsh and sometimes violent beliefs of some Muslims - and feeling that you are really just moulding Islam to suit your own humanity. But even that's fine - but don't expect me not to discuss and give my opinion - that's only natural - we all do it - there shouldn't be a problem about that.
As for man finding his way alone with out God's guidance - I believe that's exactly what we have been doing all these years. If there is any guidance that God has given us then it is within us - in our hearts, souls, minds and conscience. It may not be perfect - but hey - look around at those who think they are following God's perfect book
"I" people fast paced low emotion authority types time is very important to them drivers who believe they run the world; their every other sentenced contains the word "I" ...
http//oi56.tinypic.com/2ufsyvq.jpg
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If you have decided on your stance of being an agnostic and if you are certain that Quran has irreconcilable flaws. Then what do you wish to achive with this forum? Are you maybe considering Islam again? Is there any other religion that you may be interested in? Or are you just saying shalom for the old times sake?
Thanks
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It is sad to read about people who have lost faith in God and become rejectors...I can tell you there is a Creator as sure as you and I breathe, but when faith in the unseen is mixed with doubt, the doubt takes over.
I do not think I agree..
- Many of those who has 'lost faith in God' are mainly due to the bizarreness and illogicality of the traditional concept of "God" / "Deity"
- I also do not see when "faith" are mixed with doubt, the doubt shall takes over. What I see is that 'doubt' shall raise 'questions' and 'questions' shall paved the way for 'answer'. But one thing for sure "Blind Faith" is certainly an ignorance.
Arkan,
I'm interested on "There are verses which clearly run counter not only to science but logic, which can be argued to clearly betray any claims of divine and perfect origin", kindly enlightened me on this. I'm clearly not a Quran apologetic.. I will not defend the Quran in any way.. But I'm curious... as I believe Truth are Truth and Truth definitely need to be proven as Truth.
Salam / Peace
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And now - I am liberated - I do not worry trying to reconcile the many problems - the very problems the people come here to argue about EVERY DAY on EVERY ISSUE - because for me - I can see so clearly why those problems exist - the religion is flawed - therefore why try to bend logic and twist interpretations to fix something that is broken? They don't need to be reconciled - because I understand why they are there.
"The religion is flawed" - I agree
"Why try to bend logic and twist interpretations to fix something that is broken?" - I agree.. it is clearly useless..A Jew named Iashua said it best
"And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.?"God doesn't bother to 'fix' the 'torah / old testament' instead He gives new revelations.
God doesn't bother to 'fix' the 'Gospel' instead He gives new revelations.
God doesn't bother to 'fix' the 'Quran' instead He gives new revelations.There are no statement whatsoever in the Quran, which said "This Quran / This revelation will be the final revelation".
Revelation is a continuing process up until now and shall continue up until the end of time.
The method to convey the revelation however are different.Salam / Peace
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God doesn't bother to 'fix' the 'Quran' instead He gives new revelations.
Contradicts (482) ...surely they (would've) found in it much contradiction.
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I know what you said and the perception you tried to create with those articles which have ZERO to do with nineteen other than one was titled lec19.html which most likely popped up on Google and allured you to it since nineteen is ONLY an obsession/infatuation (i.e. fitna 7431) for the unappreciative.
By your understanding a vegitarian is always exempt and can gorge without being thankful or anything; reminds me of this one girl who was a veggie I asked how she distinguishes which seafood is OK to eat and she replied she doesn't eat anything if it has a face... Shocked
Everyone is a bit crazy and kind of wondering if there would be an issue with your girlfriend or wife befriending a guy like me; perhaps a movie and dinner we can talk about the latest fashions like Victoria Secrets in a friendly way of course since I have complete control enjoy the intellectual aspects of conversation. Wink
Yes, many companies do these now and we do similar by having the most successful employees first take the test see if there is at least 80% match for that particular job profile which I put a heavy weight on their learning ability and especially attitude.
When it comes to Qur'an, I always correct them regardless who they are especially if not written in the book.
Hmmm you used 'I' in every one of these sentences found when looking through your last posts ) We must be so alike!
Since introducing myself into this forum it was been necessary for me to divulge my opinions; in order to clarify this to everyone at the behest of a many questions understandably thrown my way - how else would one do it without use of the word 'I'.
So the wisdom you use in judging people falls squarely down on their use of pronouns? rotfl
Maybe you should cease trying to reduce me to a 2-dimensional character and stereotyping others on this forum in such a childish manner. D
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Ah yes. So the answer is "I have an inflated sense of self-importance. If I disclose my previous identity, my infamy and celebrity -- known by all -- will result in my proverbial lynching. My ideas are too dangerous, my insights too shocking and iconoclastic. The members here cannot handle what I have to say, and if they knew who I truly were, they would by default resort to outrage and the Internet equivalence of violence. That's how little I think of them."
Psst, but see, here's the thing "Arkan." Ready? Lean in a bit closer...
No one cares. You're not Martin Luther posting up his 95 Theses on the church door. You're not Galileo, tried and convicted for your views. You're...a nobody. A Trojan horse attempting to beguile unsuspecting members here with your tales of open-mindedness. Just a self-delusional paranoid on the Internet who thinks he's somehow a relevant personality.
Get over yourself.
PS. I apologize again if my post does not meet your standards of 'growth.' One day, maybe, I'll reach your level.
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caveman-doctor
No one cares. You're not Martin Luther posting up his 95 Theses on the church door. You're not Galileo, tried and convicted for your views. You're...a nobody. A Trojan horse attempting to beguile unsuspecting members here with your tales of open-mindedness. Just a self-delusional paranoid on the Internet who thinks he's somehow a relevant personality.
Wrong! many care and I am one of those who care. It is very important to know Why a person has left the cult "Quranist". Actually it is very interesting to study a person who thinks that "growth" is in becoming agnostic atheist.
Whenever you leave the original Deen Islam and join a cult and refrain from being called a "Muslim" you are at great risk of becoming an atheist that very day.Arkan
caveman doctor
PS. I apologize again if my post does not meet your standards of 'growth.' One day, maybe, I'll reach your level.
I pray to Allah that day comes sooon!
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In light of Rajah's post, let me rephrase
No one of substance cares.
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caveman-doctor
Wrong! many care and I am one of those who care. It is very important to know Why a person has left the cult "Quranist". Actually it is very interesting to study a person who thinks that "growth" is in becoming agnostic atheist.
Whenever you leave the original Deen Islam and join a cult and refrain from being called a "Muslim" you are at great risk of becoming an atheist that very day.Arkan
caveman doctor
I pray to Allah that day comes sooon!Yes, this study definitely requires the raaajah treatment. I look forward to a bold and multicoloured approach primarily highlighted in red the many different facets that he will bring forth for our mutual benefit. I pray it involves logic...no actually I hope against hope.
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Hmmm you used 'I' in every one of these sentences found when looking through your last posts We must be so alike!
No, we are nothing alike; your use of I is prominent at times every other word an exact match...
Quote from Arkan on February 23, 2011, 073559 AM
... I am now - that is why I thought I'd sign up again and say hi ...Quote from cosmicdancer on March 23, 2010, 051208 PM
OK firstly I meant I do not believe in imposing my beliefs on anyone and I will ... -
cavemandoctor
In light of Rajah's post, let me rephrase
In light of cavemandoctor's post let me rephrase
I pray to Allah that day comes sooooooner!Savage-carrot
Yes, this study definitely requires the raaajah treatment. I look forward to a bold and multicoloured approach primarily highlighted in red the many different facets that he will bring forth for our mutual benefit. I pray it involves logic...no actually I hope against hope.
Aap ko Sath khaun Maaf hain,,, sarkar!
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Perfect match and personality type...
Peace
??? whats the point of this?
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No, we are nothing alike; your use of I is prominent at times every other word an exact match...
Quote from Arkan on February 23, 2011, 073559 AM
... I am now - that is why I thought I'd sign up again and say hi ...Quote from cosmicdancer on March 23, 2010, 051208 PM
OK firstly I meant I do not believe in imposing my beliefs on anyone and I will ...Peace Seid
Don't you think what your implying is unfair?
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I would be glad to share my thoughts on the presence or lack thereof -[ pertaining to scientific verses.
No worries, we all have things to do and can only visit the forum when time permits, so in the meantime I'll try my best to summarise my thoughts on this issue for you
Before I mention this though, I'll have to say that even when I existed as a 'traditional muslim' I was most certainly not impressed by the rationale and supposed intellectual merits of the Ulema.
It was clear for me, from the very beginning - that the history of pre-Islamic Arabia was severely misrepresented by Islamic 'scholars' in order to elevate the position of Muhammad and support certain themes - at the time my thoughts were that this was unnecessary and any attempts to do so were obviously an indication of insecurity on behalf of the person knowingly perpetrating that particular falsehood.
This is very important as it's related to the issue of the Scientific verses. Issues such as the presence of Christians/Christian Arabs in the peninsula was completely played down in light of tons of evidence to the contrary. The literacy of the Hijaz was completely misrepresented by the Ulema, funny considering Arabia is adjacent to the three oldest civilized lands on Earth - Rafidayn (Iraq), Kanaan (Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan) and Kemet/Misr (Egypt) ANYWAY I'm diverging so I'll get back to the point
Back to the Scientific Versus, here is a summary of my thoughts
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Many of the verses claiming to be scientific are not and the understanding and interpretation has been twisted to suit modern ideas.
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The ones that do parallel a general understanding of science aren't spectacular due to the fact that it was understood to be that way by everyone at the time anyway, especially since Hejaz as a middle eastern province enjoyed close proximity to the three oldest centers of civilization as well as Greece and Rome.
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There are verses which clearly run counter not only to science but logic, which can be argued to clearly betray any claims of divine and perfect origin.
Hope this has helped you get a better idea of my point of view.
Peace
It does Arkan thanks. I value doubt in knowledge provided it is reasonable. Points 1, 2 and 3 are exactly what I was hoping to discuss and I have things i want your opinion on but it will take me time to prepare. At the moment my studies have priority with regards to my time spent and there are other things that i must do in a day. But i will reply to you at some point. Hopefully we will be both be reasonable when we come to discuss 1,2 and 3.
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caveman-doctor
Wrong! many care and I am one of those who care. It is very important to know Why a person has left the cult "Quranist". Actually it is very interesting to study a person who thinks that "growth" is in becoming agnostic atheist.
Whenever you leave the original Deen Islam and join a cult and refrain from being called a "Muslim" you are at great risk of becoming an atheist that very day.So you think this message board is another cult like sunnism, shiasm etc.? ??? I don't see any clergymen or authority figure telling anyone what to believe etc. Gotta love people who spread disinfo to discredit the truth