Former Muslim
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Peace
??? whats the point of this?
Personality signature and writing style. The use "-" is a tell as well...
Perfect match and personality type...
Peace Seid
Don't you think what your implying is unfair?
No.
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Peace
The use "-" is a tell as well...
Peace SEid
Is the tell something negative by any chance? -
nimnimak_11
It does Arkan thanks. I value doubt in knowledge provided it is reasonable. Points 1, 2 and 3 are exactly what I was hoping to discuss and I have things i want your opinion on but it will take me time to prepare. At the moment my studies have priority with regards to my time spent and there are other things that i must do in a day. But i will reply to you at some point. Hopefully we will be both be reasonable when we come to discuss 1,2 and 3.
peace
but dear, according to our great doctor you are of no substance
cavemandoctor
No one of substance cares.
(what Arkan has to say).Prince
So you think this message board is another cult like sunnism, shiasm etc.? Huh?
How did you assume that? No, I and many others who are only Muslims keep on posting here. The quote from the founder of this site LAYTH'S quote is my signature if you read
We are at the end of the day Muslims...Neither quranists or free-minders or submitters or sunni or shia or any such nonsence that people use to label. Layth
Savage-carrot I can make it more colorful if you want?
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Salaamun People/ Peace, Prosperity and Safety Be Upon You All,
Even though this post appears under the name "Shirley", I just wanted to let you all know that I am Shirley's husband. I am posting this under her account since I do not have one of my own.
I thoroughly disagree with the idea of "Immaculate Conception" of 'Esa and I very strongly disagree with the unsubstantiated belief that Maryam was a hermaphrodite. If we believe this, then we would have to ask ourselves what it is that we are accusing Maryam of doing in order to "conceive" 'Esa as a certain type of act would still have to be performed to accomplish this; masturbation of the 3rd kind?
For those who feel that they have a strong enough command of Quranic Arabic and are willing to exercise logic and keep in mind the PURPOSE of The Quran, I highly recommend the book Jesus; The Warrior Apostle by Dr. Akhtar Sherazi. Just scroll down towards the bottom of the page to read it online. As a reader of Quranic Arabic and one who strives very hard to always exercise logic and common sense, I find his exposition of this situation the most plausible that I have come across to date.
If you do not want to read an entire 400 page book just to get his explanation of this subject, you can read a summation of the main ideas of the book in article form here
Of all of the scholars and would be scholars of The Quran in the world, it is my very humble opinion that the two people doing the best job of true Quranic exposition are Dr. Akhtar Sherazi and Dr. Qamar Zaman
With all due and sincere respects,
Allah Hafiz. -
I thoroughly disagree with the idea of "Immaculate Conception" of 'Esa and I very strongly disagree with the unsubstantiated belief that Maryam was a hermaphrodite.
Peace Bro
I agree with you. And the belief that that Maryam was a hermaphrodite is not based on the Quran, it is based on guesswork. Nowhere in the Quran it says that mary gave birth to Isa without having a husband. From my studies of historical jesus and history in general, I have come to the conclusion that the virgin birth is a myth.
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peace Shirley's husband  
If we believe this, then we would have to ask ourselves what it is that we are accusing Maryam of doing in order to "conceive" 'Esa as a certain type of act would still have to be performed to accomplish this; masturbation of the 3rd kind?
Erm, no. From here
An individual that produces exclusively large gametes is female, and one that produces exclusively small gametes is male. An individual that produces both types of gametes is a hermaphrodite; in some cases hermaphrodites are able to self-fertilize and produce offspring on their own, without a second organism.
Also, it is not unsubstantiated, see here for example
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602219.msg275291#msg275291But I am always open to alternatives. If you can very briefly summarise the view in the link you gave I'd appreciate it.
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nimnimak_11 peace
but dear, according to our great doctor you are of no substance
Peace Rajaaah
Why are you pointing this out to me? Please forgive me for this assumption but to me it looks like either you are trying to get me to respond negatively to Cavemandoctor or that you are trying to make him look bad in my view of him. If I am wrong PLEASE tell me why you pointed this out as i am genuinely interested in your intentions regarding this post.
Hi Arkan
Respond whenever you have time no rush. Whats your take on this
The word sea (bahr) is used 32 times in the Quran. The word bahr is used both for the sea and other waters like lakes and rivers. The word land (barr, yabas) is used 13 times. If we calculate the ratio of 32 to 45 the result is 71.111%.
You may look up in any encyclopedia in the world and see that the sea cover 71% of the earth whereas the land covers 29% of it
This is from submission.org and I have not yet verified this but will do so and let you know the result of my verification. But to get things moving let us assume that the frequencies given are correct.
Do you think the writer was planning this? If so how do you think he came to be aware of such knowledge considering the time 1400 years ago? Or is it just coincidence?
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Peace SEid
Is the tell something negative by any chance?Peace, nothing negative/positive only it's the same person posting that's all.
This is from submission.org and I have not yet verified this but will do so and let you know the result of my verification. But to get things moving let us assume that the frequencies given are correct.
Do you think the writer was planning this? If so how do you think he came to be aware of such knowledge considering the time 1400 years ago? Or is it just coincidence?
Not coincidence and pertains to the reader sorting through different combinations only publishing favorable outcomes which the ratio is an estimate, no way to exactly measure and doesn't account for water locked up in glaciers or weather cycles which in my place in the world was covered with 30 feet of ice 10,000 years ago.
Count Word -- which 13?
5
1
3
3
1
1
287
1
157
1460 Total
Likewise which combinations are close enough to 30/70 estimate?
12 31 43 28% 72%
13 32 45 29% 71%
14 33 47 30% 70%
15 34 49 31% 69%
16 35 51 31% 69%13 33 46 28% 72%
14 34 48 29% 71%
15 35 50 30% 70%
16 36 52 31% 69%
17 37 54 31% 69%Alif Laam Meem
That the book no doubt in it, guidance for the mindful
Those who believe in the unseen... -
Peace, nothing negative/positive only it's the same person posting that's all.
Not coincidence and pertains to the reader sorting through different combinations only publishing favorable outcomes which the ratio is an estimate, no way to exactly measure and doesn't account for water locked up in glaciers or weather cycles which in my place in the world was covered with 30 feet of ice 10,000 years ago.
Count Word -- which 13?
5
1
3
3
1
1
287
1
157
1460 Total
Likewise which combinations are close enough to 30/70 estimate?
12 31 43 28% 72%
13 32 45 29% 71%
14 33 47 30% 70%
15 34 49 31% 69%
16 35 51 31% 69%13 33 46 28% 72%
14 34 48 29% 71%
15 35 50 30% 70%
16 36 52 31% 69%
17 37 54 31% 69%Alif Laam Meem
That the book no doubt in it, guidance for the mindful
Those who believe in the unseen...Peace SEid
Sorry I thought you were trying to portray a negative image. Also thanks for the info on ratio.
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Peace Bro
I agree with you. And the belief that that Maryam was a hermaphrodite is not based on the Quran, it is based on guesswork. Nowhere in the Quran it says that mary gave birth to Isa without having a husband. From my studies of historical jesus and history in general, I have come to the conclusion that the virgin birth is a myth.
I wasn't completely objective and impartial when I wrote this post. So I want to write my thoughts about this topic one more time.
The belief that Mary had a husband is also based on guesswork. There is no verse in the Quran that says that mary had a husband. So there is no evidence from the Quran that shows us that Mary had a husband. However, according to history, mary might have had a husband by the name Joseph. And I am more convinced by this view than the other one.
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Hello again Wakas,
Yes, I'm using an entirely new username, please forgive my secrecy but I trust you'll understand why
I gave the Jesus-myth as a short explanation as to the final days and weeks in the turning point of my understanding, after years of trying to reconcile truth and practise in Islam.
The historicity of Jesus - Jesus the man who was born of a virgin, who exists in no secular sources is in fact a recyled pre-Christian deity (the fact that such things as the virgin birth are accepted in Islam is testament that it recylced the same myths) such as Osiris. Looking in a simillar manner to other pre-Jewish and pre-Islamic/Christian events shows that most of the stories can be seen as having origins in Polytheistic cultures.
If you look further it spills out into the Judaism's Egyptian Captivity myth among other things (since many of these facts are included in the later religions) the original source for these stories being found in ancient art and writing. Genetic analysis of Jewish people corroborates movement contrary to the one found in mythology.
Again - the issues surrounding these things are not the sole reason why I'm no longer a Muslim, there are other issues pertaining directly with Islam itself and the nature of the God and I'd rather reacquaint myself with people right now than sit here writing long posts lol D
How are you doing anyway Wakas?
I'm going to say that I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I just wanted to respond to this.
As far as Jesus is concerned, the idea that he is a recycled myth relies on really old and mostly bogus information. Pretty much every major scholar on the subject agrees that Jesus was a historical figure. The agreement is that he was a Jewish peasant and considered himself to be a prophet. The fact that he himself is not mentioned in secular documents isn't really a big deal because his immediate family is well documented, aka his brother James and the Jerusalem church which was a wholly Jewish group, ie they didn't claim that Jesus was a man-god or anything like that. They believed him to be a prophet. This is what the Quran says as well. I would recommend you read "Jesus, Interrupted" by Bart Ehrman. Excellent book on New Testament scholarship. From your post, it seems like you aren't very aware of what is known about the historical figure of Jesus, so if you are still interested, I would highly recommend it. It is a very easy read.
As far as the story of Exodus goes, it is also easily verifiable and there is much evidence that supports it. If you are interested, read "The Mystery of Israel in Ancient Egypt The Exodus in the Qur'an, the Old Testament, Archaeological Finds, and Historical Sources ". Here are some quick facts that you should consider.
-The "Israel Stele" of Merneptah mentions Israel, and it refers to them as a group of people, not a nation.
-Unlike the biblical version, the Quran implies that the group that left with Moses was a rather small group. The bible claims it was 2-3 million.
-Unlike the Bible, the Quran states that God preserved the body of the Pharaoh. The fact that pharaohs were mummified was lost at the time Muhammad was a live so for the Quran to claim that God had somehow preserved the Pharaoh so he could be an example to people is certainly something to consider. Also, this statement is not found in the Bible, so if Muhammad was just copying it, this was a rather bizarre and accurate statement of him to make. The Quran mentions many nations and people being destroyed, but the Pharaoh is the only one who is said to have been preserved.
-Hamman is a clear reference to the high priest of Yamnu (also spelled Amon, Amoun, Amen, and rarely Imen or Yamun, Greek Ammon, and Hammon). Note that the Pharaoh consults Hamman for religious matters in the Quran. He also asks Hamman to make him buildings. The construction of religious temples was done under the directions of the priests of Amun in ancient Egypt. The Bible doesn't mention any such figure and the knowledge of the religious courts of ancient Egypt was lost at the time of Muhammad. In fact most knowledge of the customs and language of ancient Egypt was lost by 300 BCE.
-The Pharaoh asked Hamman to build him a building so he could climb up there and see this God of Moses. The idea of climbing a high place to speak with gods is in fact what the ancient Egyptians believed. I've seen this idea mentioned in several documentaries on the History Channel and other channels.
-In the Quran, the Pharaoh keeps saying that he thinks that Moses just wants to drive the people out of the land. Why does he keep saying this? It is because not too long ago, the Hyskos who were a semetic people like Moses had driven the Egyptians out of lower Egypt where the Pharoah now lived. They were driven out only a few generations before Ramesses.
-The Pharaoh is called Firaun al-awtad, which is often translated as the Pharaoh of might or the Pharah of the stakes, but when read in context, it is probably saying the Pharoah of high/many buildings. Who was the Pharaoh who was obsessed with building? Ramesses II. All the things noted above also point to him being THE pharoah, and yes we do have his body.
-The "Israel Stele" was completed under Ramesses successor Merneptah soon after the death of his father. In it he claims that the tribe of Israel is destroyed. Clearly this wasn't the case. The Pharaoh's would often claim victories when really they had lost. This is apparent in some of the victories Ramesses II claimed because we also have records from the opposing side (the Hittites).
-The Quran says that the Pharaoh declared himself to be THE God (7924). Although Pharoahs were considered divine, very few of them actually made this claim. As it happens, Ramesses II did declare himself to be God. The inscription of him declaring this is found at his temple at Abu Simbel. Again, the Pharaoh is the only one that the Quran says made such a claim and no one could have known this at the time of Muhammad.
As far as the location of the real Mount Sinai, I think it has been discovered. Everything is there. A giant stone altar with engravings of the Egyptian bovine god Apsis, the cave of Elijah, the bitter springs, and even till this day quails descend by it in large groups which is what the Israelites were supposed to have eaten. It is located in modern day Saudi Arabia.
http//www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htmI think the story of the exodus is actually one of the greatest signs that the Quran is indeed divine. There are so many things in there that Muhammad just could not have known.
